To give a glimpse of some of that potential: I've run entire campaigns that lasted 6+ months each while starting with no more idea of the story or objectives than the bare minimum needed for the players to make characters.
A specific example being "You guys want to play some D&D? Okay, how about being students at an academy of magic and higher learning, exploring the secrets the academy grounds/faculty hold?" and then everyone made up their characters, with me adding whatever details of they wanted for their characters to the setting, like the local area around the academy having nomadic tribespeople for one of the characters to be from. Then we just started playing right then, even though I'd had no more time to prepare the campaign than the players had to make characters (all of 30 minutes from deciding to start a new D&D campaign to being in-play). I ran everything by improvising reactively to what the players were having their characters do - they go to a class, I make up a teacher; they head to the cafeteria for lunch, I make up what meal options are served; they express curiosity about students besides the player characters, I make up some students; they think something seems worth investigating, I make up what they find while investigating.
With no objectives not decided upon by the players, and no "this is the climax of the campaign's story" determined by me until it absolutely had to be (which was prompted by more people joining our group of players, so it was easier for everyone to start a new campaign involving everyone than try to bring new characters into an already deeply established closed-environment campaign in progress).
And I can do that, not because I am some rare breed of person with in-born talents that others can never hope to have, but because I took the time to learn how, even though it took me years to get it down.
I don't know if it is worth arguing with this person.
I'm, primarily, not arguing with the person; I am participating in a sharing of ideas regarding the topic of DMing, which any number of people (including potential DMs, new DMs still trying to figure out how to be their best, or long-toothed DMs whether looking for something new to try or not) might read and benefit from.
So to that end, I do what I can to help those potential readers that could benefit find the most significant benefit possible. I'm all about the hobby community at large, and especially the portion of which might end up being DMs, since that portion is the one in which I must place my hopes that I ever get another chance to sit down and play as a player, rather than as the DM.
That's fair. I agree... I really hope that DDB can be a place where new or would-be DMs can come and find a friendly community and a lot of advice! Not everything works for everyone, and I think it is important we stress that that is completely OKAY!
And yes... I know a lot of other DMs who are trapped in a vicious cycle of players who don't think they can DM, so they never try it just because for some reason we like to pretend it is very difficult to be a DM, though I would think of it more as "time-consuming," and even that depends on the kind of group you have. For that crazy, off-the-map group I had... I didn't prepare ANYTHING except stat blocks and a bunch of names. That was IT, and they loved it!
DM: Adventures in Phandalin [Khessa], The Dread of Strahd[Darya], Dragons of Stormwreck Isle [Rook], Baldur's Gate Mysteries [4-Player] Player: Oona in MO's Icewind Dale Ru's Current Status
It is the special trait you do not believe exists... DMs are there own breed.
How do you reconcile that not only do I exist as a DM, but I do so without any "lie" to my players, and without any shortage of players wanting to fill the seats at my table, with your philosophy?
That is, logically, a very good question. Your evidence contradicts his established belief, so he's either going to change his belief or ignore your evidence.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both" -- allegedly Benjamin Franklin
In my old 4E D&D group, everyone took turns as a DM. So we could play every week but only prepare once a month. It also meant that everyone new the rules pretty well. I therefore agree, DM's are not a special breed and it isn't that much harder to do. You do have to keep track of more things, tough.
Nor do you need to deceive your players all that much. That sounds almost abusive and indeed like a power trip. A bit of railschröding always happens, simply because I adapt ideas and scenarios I already planned. But that's not the same as the story remaining set in stone. The individual bricks remain the same, but what kind of building it will be, is a collaborative effort.
not worry about what anyone thinks and not let other's opinion sway them from the story and objectives of the world they are DMing.
Than your not playing with your players, your playing them. The whole point is for everyone to have fun. Why would you ignore their opinion on that unless you don't care one bit about other people?
I agree though, there seems to be a world of difference between altering an element you already thought of so that it fits given the current state of the campaign (I do that too, usually along the lines of thinking to myself in the shower "It'd be cool if [blank] happened in a game", and then later there is an opening in a campaign that makes me think "Ooh, [blank] would fit here nicely" so I plug it in), and having any element you already thought up be an inevitability.
My entire argument stems from some where in the middle of listening to the player, adapting to their actions and desires but also, not letting them do the job of the DM.
A couple in this post want to force me to an extreme side of thus point, because I disagree with the extreme side of the opposing point.
I do not, and have not written in this thread that the DM needs 100% control, nor should the players get 100% freedom.
I am emphasizing the former to to show its necessity in a thread dominated by an "all inclusive" view of the latter.
"How do you reconcile that not only do I exist as a DM"
You choose to be...
"but I do so without any "lie" to my players,"
No secrets, no mysteries, no puzzles, etc... hmm.. a lie of omission is still a lie.. secrets un-revealed for plot, until revealed, are lies...
"And without any shortage of players wanting to fill the seats at my table, with your philosophy?"
Easy... you do lie to your players and do adhere to that philosophy...
Edit for clarity: Definition I am using (which I thought would be implied, given the context of DMing a game, and the assumption that intentional deceit is not the puepose)... a definition of lie that applies: "somethingintendedorservingtoconveyafalseimpression;imposture:"
"The Dungeon Master (DM) is the creative force behind a D&D game. The DM creates a world for the other players to explore, and also creates and runs adventures that drive the story."
"A Dungeon Master gets to wear many hats. As the architect of a campaign, the DM creates adventures by placing monsters, traps, and treasures for the other players' characters (the adventurers) to discover. As a storyteller, the DM helps the other players visualize what's happening around them, improvising when the adventurers do something or go somewhere unexpected. As an actor, the DM plays the roles of the monsters and supporting characters, breathing life into them. And as a referee, the DM interprets the rules and decides when to abide by them and when to change them. "
"You're the DM, and you are in charge of the game. That said, your goal isn't to slaughter the adventurers but to create a campaign world that revolves around their actions and decisions..."
I never said the players cannot, in part, shape the story, they are the water... they flow, but do not let them destroy and erode what you, the DM have created... the rock that is your creation. Chile it, shape it, but do so as you see fit.
My last post in this rediculous thread...And lastly, being all inclusive is unsustainable... little millennial humor there... what this threads idea of a DM sounds like... more like a Dungeon Liason.. than a Dungeon Master.
No secrets, no mysteries, no puzzles, etc... hmm.. a lie of omission is still a lie.. secrets un-revealed for plot, until revealed, are lies...
When you redefine a word that most people use to mean intentional deceit to also include things which I can honestly keep from my players - by which I mean I can tell them "that piece of information is a secret." or "There is a mystery to solve in this adventure." or even "this is a puzzle", rather than lie to them and pretend there are no secrets for them to discover, mysteries for them to unravel, or puzzle for them to solve, or worse, lie to them so they believe that there are more of those things than there actually are - then, yes, you can say I'm a liar too.
Of course, that doesn't mean that you are actually correct when you say that.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
I'm, primarily, not arguing with the person; I am participating in a sharing of ideas regarding the topic of DMing, which any number of people (including potential DMs, new DMs still trying to figure out how to be their best, or long-toothed DMs whether looking for something new to try or not) might read and benefit from.
So to that end, I do what I can to help those potential readers that could benefit find the most significant benefit possible. I'm all about the hobby community at large, and especially the portion of which might end up being DMs, since that portion is the one in which I must place my hopes that I ever get another chance to sit down and play as a player, rather than as the DM.
That's fair. I agree... I really hope that DDB can be a place where new or would-be DMs can come and find a friendly community and a lot of advice! Not everything works for everyone, and I think it is important we stress that that is completely OKAY!
And yes... I know a lot of other DMs who are trapped in a vicious cycle of players who don't think they can DM, so they never try it just because for some reason we like to pretend it is very difficult to be a DM, though I would think of it more as "time-consuming," and even that depends on the kind of group you have. For that crazy, off-the-map group I had... I didn't prepare ANYTHING except stat blocks and a bunch of names. That was IT, and they loved it!
DM: Adventures in Phandalin [Khessa], The Dread of Strahd [Darya], Dragons of Stormwreck Isle [Rook], Baldur's Gate Mysteries [4-Player]
Player: Oona in MO's Icewind Dale
Ru's Current Status
"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both" -- allegedly Benjamin Franklin
Tooltips (Help/aid)
In my old 4E D&D group, everyone took turns as a DM. So we could play every week but only prepare once a month. It also meant that everyone new the rules pretty well. I therefore agree, DM's are not a special breed and it isn't that much harder to do. You do have to keep track of more things, tough.
Nor do you need to deceive your players all that much. That sounds almost abusive and indeed like a power trip. A bit of railschröding always happens, simply because I adapt ideas and scenarios I already planned. But that's not the same as the story remaining set in stone. The individual bricks remain the same, but what kind of building it will be, is a collaborative effort.
Than your not playing with your players, your playing them. The whole point is for everyone to have fun. Why would you ignore their opinion on that unless you don't care one bit about other people?
That is a much better phrase than "quantum ogre".
I agree though, there seems to be a world of difference between altering an element you already thought of so that it fits given the current state of the campaign (I do that too, usually along the lines of thinking to myself in the shower "It'd be cool if [blank] happened in a game", and then later there is an opening in a campaign that makes me think "Ooh, [blank] would fit here nicely" so I plug it in), and having any element you already thought up be an inevitability.
My entire argument stems from some where in the middle of listening to the player, adapting to their actions and desires but also, not letting them do the job of the DM.
A couple in this post want to force me to an extreme side of thus point, because I disagree with the extreme side of the opposing point.
I do not, and have not written in this thread that the DM needs 100% control, nor should the players get 100% freedom.
I am emphasizing the former to to show its necessity in a thread dominated by an "all inclusive" view of the latter.
"How do you reconcile that not only do I exist as a DM"
You choose to be...
"but I do so without any "lie" to my players,"
No secrets, no mysteries, no puzzles, etc... hmm.. a lie of omission is still a lie.. secrets un-revealed for plot, until revealed, are lies...
"And without any shortage of players wanting to fill the seats at my table, with your philosophy?"
Easy... you do lie to your players and do adhere to that philosophy...
Edit for clarity: Definition I am using (which I thought would be implied, given the context of DMing a game, and the assumption that intentional deceit is not the puepose)... a definition of lie that applies: "something intended or serving to convey a false impression;imposture:"
"Your world is the setting for your campaign..."
"The Dungeon Master (DM) is the creative force behind a D&D game. The DM creates a world for the other players to explore, and also creates and runs adventures that drive the story."
"A Dungeon Master gets to wear many hats. As the architect of a campaign, the DM creates adventures by placing monsters, traps, and treasures for the other players' characters (the adventurers) to discover. As a storyteller, the DM helps the other players visualize what's happening around them, improvising when the adventurers do something or go somewhere unexpected. As an actor, the DM plays the roles of the monsters and supporting characters, breathing life into them. And as a referee, the DM interprets the rules and decides when to abide by them and when to change them. "
"You're the DM, and you are in charge of the game. That said, your goal isn't to slaughter the adventurers but to create a campaign world that revolves around their actions and decisions..."
I never said the players cannot, in part, shape the story, they are the water... they flow, but do not let them destroy and erode what you, the DM have created... the rock that is your creation. Chile it, shape it, but do so as you see fit.
My last post in this rediculous thread...And lastly, being all inclusive is unsustainable... little millennial humor there... what this threads idea of a DM sounds like... more like a Dungeon Liason.. than a Dungeon Master.
My last post in this rediculous thread...