My entire group already owns most of the physical books (And Prefers them) and so has decided to skip DnD Beyond. The current model seems to be a dilemma for most people I talk to. Would it be possible to sell the Physical copies at a mark-up and a access code? Some kind of compromise between the two?
This is discussed, probably daily, on this forum. Here's the short version. D&D is owned by Wizards of the Coast, who is owned by Hasbro. DDB is owned by Twitch who is owned by Amazon. There are other digital tools out there for D&D, including Roll 20 and Fantasy Grounds. If there was a code included in the books for the digital toolset, it would have to be for all services, so the cost of the books would probably double. If you don't see a value in DDB to consider it worth paying for, the solution is simple. Don't pay for it.
My entire group already owns most of the physical books (And Prefers them) and so has decided to skip DnD Beyond. The current model seems to be a dilemma for most people I talk to. Would it be possible to sell the Physical copies at a mark-up and a access code? Some kind of compromise between the two?
While there may be a large section of gamers who have issues with the pricing model, there was enough support at launch for it to "exceed their expectations" and fund them for years. Beyond is adding staff and expanding because of how popular it is. Even to the point that WotC came out and praised them for their launch.
While it isn't for everyone (what is) it is enough for, at worst, a huge minority of players, and enough for them not to change a thing for a while (if ever).
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
The most memorable stories always begin with failure.
Buy the legendary bundle, then buy the hard covers from Amazon. There you go. I highly doubt the price combo for physical+digital would be any cheaper than that.
That's what I do. At a coffee shop now and I'm not going to lug my books on my motorcycle with me. Digital access is awesome. I still prefer sitting on the couch and planning with physical copies though.
I would keep in mind that only one person of your group needs to buy the books on DnD Beyond. That person sets themselves up as DM, sends a code to the rest of the group, (up to 12), and then everyone has access to the books online. (For the DM to do that, they also need to get a subscription, but that cost is minimal.)
That's what my group does. If you decide, as a group, to split the costs, great. In my case, as the DM, I just bought the books without asking my players to cost share. Frankly, I think that's always been the case with DM's in the "physical book world" too. We are always the ones shelling out the most money, because most of the players come to your house and use your library during play. Hell, when 5th Edition came out I actually bought 10 Players Handbooks and gifted them to my players for Christmas, (we started the campaign around Thanksgiving).
I love the fact that I can give my players the entire DnD library through Beyond. For me, it seems like a bargain, but I understand the frustration of feeling like you have to re-buy the books. Given they're deal with WotC, however, I don't see anyway around it. At least Beyond seems to be committed to giving you a big bang for your buck, by supporting the service. I'm especially looking forward to when the app comes out.
Buy the legendary bundle, then buy the hard covers from Amazon. There you go. I highly doubt the price combo for physical+digital would be any cheaper than that.
That's what I do. At a coffee shop now and I'm not going to loot my books on my motorcycle with me. Digital access is awesome. I still prefer sitting on the couch and planning with physical copies though.
I'm really confused by most of what I read on here, do we all work for these companies? I understand all the reasons and it's not a bad deal, but's not a good deal either. It would have been easy enough to organise something that benefits players more from the business end of this.
We don't owe these companies anything. Of course they are going to say everything is great, in my experience companies always say everything is great. Also I would imagine that the people engaged with DnD beyond are a cross-section of devoted and hardcore fans, who would be the ideal target for this, hence the reaction. The real point and purpose of digital tools should/could have been to expand the player base and decrease the cost (in time and effort) of entry to the hobby. The target audience has grown incredibly in recent years, I've been playing for a long time and I'm still surprised by the kind and amount of people who are now interested in playing.
It seems to come down to a lack of imagination and understanding. It's fine for me personally or if you have a tight knit gaming group but for the majority of people involved in the hobby or interested in it.... I'm sure this is a slightly dead horse but it's not our job to do their PR for them. No matter how successful DnD Beyond I believe they screwed up a good opportunity.
The real point and purpose of digital tools should/could have been to expand the player base and decrease the cost (in time and effort) of entry to the hobby.
I couldn't agree with you more on this and I think that the Curse team have done an amazing job here.
Anyone can now use these digital tools, for FREE whilst learning to play the game with the Basic Rules and when they, or the group, decide to progress to purchasing books, they are cheaper than ever before when purchased digitally through D&D Beyond.
The reality is that it wouldn’t have been easier. It’s WotC, it Curse they needs to buy off on all of what you are suggesting. None of what you are suggesting can happen without their approval.
It’s not like Curse is going to stockhold physical books to ship worldwide. Plus, the cost still couldn’t beat Amazon’s pricing. Again, Curse has to pay WotC the licensing fee.
I'm really confused by most of what I read on here, do we all work for these companies? I understand all the reasons and it's not a bad deal, but's not a good deal either. It would have been easy enough to organise something that benefits players more from the business end of this.
We don't owe these companies anything. Of course they are going to say everything is great, in my experience companies always say everything is great. Also I would imagine that the people engaged with DnD beyond are a cross-section of devoted and hardcore fans, who would be the ideal target for this, hence the reaction. The real point and purpose of digital tools should/could have been to expand the player base and decrease the cost (in time and effort) of entry to the hobby. The target audience has grown incredibly in recent years, I've been playing for a long time and I'm still surprised by the kind and amount of people who are now interested in playing.
It seems to come down to a lack of imagination and understanding. It's fine for me personally or if you have a tight knit gaming group but for the majority of people involved in the hobby or interested in it.... I'm sure this is a slightly dead horse but it's not our job to do their PR for them. No matter how successful DnD Beyond I believe they screwed up a good opportunity.
It's not our job to do their PR, you are right. But you are wrong that I, personally, don't owe anything to this hobby or these companies. I truly believe that if I hadn't discovered gaming in my youth that I would have killed myself. So I want to support these companies as much as possible to see them succeed. That being said I am not going to support a product I don't believe in and this is one that I believe is going to be the future of D&D digital tools.
As for having worked with these companies, I have been involved with them on several levels over the years and have had a chance to look into their workings. I know the type of people that are running things now vs when 3.0 came out and vs when magic had it's first huge jump. I believe everything they are saying about their successes, but you don't have to and I understand your skepticism. That being said you "think" you know who the ideal target would be for this product, but reality is that only the people behind the scenes have all the details on this, and they are very happy with what is being done.
They are creating the future of digital toolsets that will also be profitable. Saying that the people responsible for creating the most profitable version of the original imagination game, lack imagination is very ironic.
I push these products and brands because this is where I get my entertainment from and are important to me. Beyond is coming along very nicely as a support of that entertainment. it's really now different than a sportsballer who fervently defends their team.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
The most memorable stories always begin with failure.
Super Interesting. I get that. Hard. I've run this game at youth shelters and as a form of therapy. I understand. But I don't think you owe anything to these companies and I think it's unhealthy to ascribe any loyalty to them. You owe things to yourself and the people you played with. You did that shit for yourself. The company profited from your passion, they don't deserve anything else. To that end if they make a good enough product they shouldn't need your support. Understanding that it's nebulous what the definition of 'good' is.
WoTC is owned by Hasbro. Who aren't in it for the common good at all. The current CEO is from Microsoft. They don't care about us. They can't. They shouldn't. I guess I'm still surprised by the amount of push back people get when they have valid complaints and suggestions. It's our thing, we should talk about it.
I'm not saying they are the ideal, I am saying they are the overlooked. The ideal target is everyone. The one thing that digital tools can accomplish that physical tools can not is significantly lowering the barrier to entry.
It's not your team. Your team is you and the people around you. Love your passion.
You're honestly surprised that someone wants to defend and support something that they're passionate about?
It's the Matt Mercers, Mike Merels, Jeremy Crawfords and Chris Perkins'... it's WotC that fans support whether verbally, financially, or (in my case) dedicating a large portion of their time to their passion. Dungeons and Dragons is free. It always has been. It's that part of the imagination that people are able to grasp and harness through storytelling that brings people together and builds a social connection that radiates throughout that person's life. Anyone can do that with a piece of paper and a pencil. WotC gives structure to that hobby that millions of people enjoy. So it keeps HASBRO funded... who cares? What it really does is support the hobby that people have spent decades harnessing. If you stop supporting HASBRO, you kill WotC.
D&D Beyond just brings it to the digital age. And like HASBRO and WotC, it needs to sustain itself. If the digital platform of that hobby resonates with people, they'll help to make it into something greater than it currently is. Supporting this platform in all manners is the way to bring about what you're hoping for... not killing it outright with naysay.
I could have been clearer, I don't have a single thing against WoTC or Hasbro. I've been playing this game for over a decade. I'm on a forum giving feedback? Don't you think I care? I've been following this toolset since Day 1 and there has been so little room for discussion. It seems any criticism of WoTC buisness or Curse's deployment is conflated with an attack on the hobby itself, no matter how constructive.
I think WoTC gets cut slack it wouldn't otherwise be cut because of the love people have (myself included) for their product and I was just musing on the strangeness of that. I kind of consider your response a good example, you invoke people's love and the joy it brings people as a defense of the companies that already profit from it. I'm not bashing the hobby at all. I mean I'm here, I care.
Fundamentally I believe it can sustain itself and still be a better deal for us. I don't think these ideas conflict.I think supporting this platform in all manners is a way for developers to overlook under serviced markets, I don't believe you can kill something with naysay and I think that attitude drives people into defensive corners, especially since I literally saying - if you gave me this, I would give you more money and so would most people I play with.
The problem is that your desire is something that Curse literally can do nothing about, but you're bringing to Curse for discussion. I've been vocal about DDB not providing APIs to allow other tools to integrate with DDB so we don't need to spent $30 on every book for every tool that is out there. That's something in the realm that DDB could likely do, and those are the types of conversations to try and have: things under DDB's purview.
However, your ask is to change how WotC sells and distributes its books. It also has no chance of working for those that have already purchased books.
You could ask the same question: why don't I get a roll20 copy or a digital code for roll20 (or FG) when I get a player's handbook? Going to Roll20 or FG to talk about how they should support this is just as nonsensical as bringing it here to.
I think WoTC gets cut slack it wouldn't otherwise be cut because of the love people have (myself included) for their product and I was just musing on the strangeness of that.
Another angle of that to consider: People will speak out against ideas that sound like a bad plan or a big risk for WotC to make because they've been around long enough to see numerous bad plans of WotC fail and fade away, and seen WotC get the bad-end of some big risks, and as a result think WotC might be foolish enough to do this newly suggested bad plan or big risk if there aren't enough people saying clearly enough "No, don't."
I say this because I don't have any love for WotC (the company; the folks that work there are a separate thing, and I'm fond of more than a few of them) - I expect them to screw up often, and badly, because that's my history with them. So if I say something against someone's proposed ideas for what WotC should be doing, it's not because of slack I'm cutting them so much as it is because I'm finally seeing the company start to "get it" (meaning I think they are finally doing good things with the intellectual property they bought decades ago) and don't want them to get distracted. Like watching a kid finally figure out how to ride a bicycle without randomly falling over, and shushing anyone that tries to talk to them because if they turn their head to listen they'll probably crash that bicycle right into a gravel-filled ditch or something.
Super Interesting. I get that. Hard. I've run this game at youth shelters and as a form of therapy. I understand. But I don't think you owe anything to these companies and I think it's unhealthy to ascribe any loyalty to them. You owe things to yourself and the people you played with. You did that shit for yourself. The company profited from your passion, they don't deserve anything else. To that end if they make a good enough product they shouldn't need your support. Understanding that it's nebulous what the definition of 'good' is.
WoTC is owned by Hasbro. Who aren't in it for the common good at all. The current CEO is from Microsoft. They don't care about us. They can't. They shouldn't. I guess I'm still surprised by the amount of push back people get when they have valid complaints and suggestions. It's our thing, we should talk about it.
I'm not saying they are the ideal, I am saying they are the overlooked. The ideal target is everyone. The one thing that digital tools can accomplish that physical tools can not is significantly lowering the barrier to entry.
It's not your team. Your team is you and the people around you. Love your passion.
I think that is where the disconnect is between you and I (Can't speak for anyone else) You say that your complaints and suggestions are valid, while I disagree. If anything, for what we are getting and the development that I've seen since it launched, Beyond is undervalued and I have suggested numerous ways to increase revenue and allow me (and other users) to use it more in a way that I think will be beneficial to all.
I've owned a game store, I know what it's like to listen to customers say the same things you are now. They are usually the types (not saying that you are) to play in my free play space, but then go online to buy at the cheapest price because they don't "owe anything" to me or my company. Which they are right, they don't but I don't owe anything to them either. What I am talking about is not necessarily dedication to the company, it is dedication to the people behind the company. The developers currently at WotC are amazing and they are passionate about what they do. If they only cared about making a buck, we'd have 30 source books by now and we would have 5 miniature sets a year. We would be seeing them licensing with anyone under the sun so make the money, and in 7 years when it is saturated, they would make a new edition and start all over again.
My wife is an aspiring writer and I am working towards being a content developer, these fields are large on intellectual property, so when people talk about wanting to double dip and license products in multiple formats for a single price, it breaks me a little. The people who end up writing or creating that content already get so little of the revenue that this sort of attitude only more pushes them out of an increasingly difficult way to make money.
So I guess what I am saying is that while I can sympathize with people who don't have the funds to license the content in multiple formats, I can't for the people who can afford it and just want to have their cake and eat it to.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
The most memorable stories always begin with failure.
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My entire group already owns most of the physical books (And Prefers them) and so has decided to skip DnD Beyond. The current model seems to be a dilemma for most people I talk to. Would it be possible to sell the Physical copies at a mark-up and a access code? Some kind of compromise between the two?
This is discussed, probably daily, on this forum. Here's the short version. D&D is owned by Wizards of the Coast, who is owned by Hasbro. DDB is owned by Twitch who is owned by Amazon. There are other digital tools out there for D&D, including Roll 20 and Fantasy Grounds. If there was a code included in the books for the digital toolset, it would have to be for all services, so the cost of the books would probably double. If you don't see a value in DDB to consider it worth paying for, the solution is simple. Don't pay for it.
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While it isn't for everyone (what is) it is enough for, at worst, a huge minority of players, and enough for them not to change a thing for a while (if ever).
The most memorable stories always begin with failure.
Buy the legendary bundle, then buy the hard covers from Amazon. There you go. I highly doubt the price combo for physical+digital would be any cheaper than that.
That's what I do. At a coffee shop now and I'm not going to lug my books on my motorcycle with me. Digital access is awesome. I still prefer sitting on the couch and planning with physical copies though.
I would keep in mind that only one person of your group needs to buy the books on DnD Beyond. That person sets themselves up as DM, sends a code to the rest of the group, (up to 12), and then everyone has access to the books online. (For the DM to do that, they also need to get a subscription, but that cost is minimal.)
That's what my group does. If you decide, as a group, to split the costs, great. In my case, as the DM, I just bought the books without asking my players to cost share. Frankly, I think that's always been the case with DM's in the "physical book world" too. We are always the ones shelling out the most money, because most of the players come to your house and use your library during play. Hell, when 5th Edition came out I actually bought 10 Players Handbooks and gifted them to my players for Christmas, (we started the campaign around Thanksgiving).
I love the fact that I can give my players the entire DnD library through Beyond. For me, it seems like a bargain, but I understand the frustration of feeling like you have to re-buy the books. Given they're deal with WotC, however, I don't see anyway around it. At least Beyond seems to be committed to giving you a big bang for your buck, by supporting the service. I'm especially looking forward to when the app comes out.
I don't have Amazon in my country.
"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both" -- allegedly Benjamin Franklin
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I'm really confused by most of what I read on here, do we all work for these companies? I understand all the reasons and it's not a bad deal, but's not a good deal either. It would have been easy enough to organise something that benefits players more from the business end of this.
We don't owe these companies anything. Of course they are going to say everything is great, in my experience companies always say everything is great. Also I would imagine that the people engaged with DnD beyond are a cross-section of devoted and hardcore fans, who would be the ideal target for this, hence the reaction. The real point and purpose of digital tools should/could have been to expand the player base and decrease the cost (in time and effort) of entry to the hobby. The target audience has grown incredibly in recent years, I've been playing for a long time and I'm still surprised by the kind and amount of people who are now interested in playing.
It seems to come down to a lack of imagination and understanding. It's fine for me personally or if you have a tight knit gaming group but for the majority of people involved in the hobby or interested in it.... I'm sure this is a slightly dead horse but it's not our job to do their PR for them. No matter how successful DnD Beyond I believe they screwed up a good opportunity.
Australia? We'll be fine. Cheers.
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"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both" -- allegedly Benjamin Franklin
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The reality is that it wouldn’t have been easier. It’s WotC, it Curse they needs to buy off on all of what you are suggesting. None of what you are suggesting can happen without their approval.
It’s not like Curse is going to stockhold physical books to ship worldwide. Plus, the cost still couldn’t beat Amazon’s pricing. Again, Curse has to pay WotC the licensing fee.
As for having worked with these companies, I have been involved with them on several levels over the years and have had a chance to look into their workings. I know the type of people that are running things now vs when 3.0 came out and vs when magic had it's first huge jump. I believe everything they are saying about their successes, but you don't have to and I understand your skepticism. That being said you "think" you know who the ideal target would be for this product, but reality is that only the people behind the scenes have all the details on this, and they are very happy with what is being done.
They are creating the future of digital toolsets that will also be profitable. Saying that the people responsible for creating the most profitable version of the original imagination game, lack imagination is very ironic.
The most memorable stories always begin with failure.
Super Interesting. I get that. Hard. I've run this game at youth shelters and as a form of therapy. I understand. But I don't think you owe anything to these companies and I think it's unhealthy to ascribe any loyalty to them. You owe things to yourself and the people you played with. You did that shit for yourself. The company profited from your passion, they don't deserve anything else. To that end if they make a good enough product they shouldn't need your support. Understanding that it's nebulous what the definition of 'good' is.
WoTC is owned by Hasbro. Who aren't in it for the common good at all. The current CEO is from Microsoft. They don't care about us. They can't. They shouldn't. I guess I'm still surprised by the amount of push back people get when they have valid complaints and suggestions. It's our thing, we should talk about it.
I'm not saying they are the ideal, I am saying they are the overlooked. The ideal target is everyone. The one thing that digital tools can accomplish that physical tools can not is significantly lowering the barrier to entry.
It's not your team. Your team is you and the people around you. Love your passion.
You're honestly surprised that someone wants to defend and support something that they're passionate about?
It's the Matt Mercers, Mike Merels, Jeremy Crawfords and Chris Perkins'... it's WotC that fans support whether verbally, financially, or (in my case) dedicating a large portion of their time to their passion. Dungeons and Dragons is free. It always has been. It's that part of the imagination that people are able to grasp and harness through storytelling that brings people together and builds a social connection that radiates throughout that person's life. Anyone can do that with a piece of paper and a pencil. WotC gives structure to that hobby that millions of people enjoy. So it keeps HASBRO funded... who cares? What it really does is support the hobby that people have spent decades harnessing. If you stop supporting HASBRO, you kill WotC.
D&D Beyond just brings it to the digital age. And like HASBRO and WotC, it needs to sustain itself. If the digital platform of that hobby resonates with people, they'll help to make it into something greater than it currently is. Supporting this platform in all manners is the way to bring about what you're hoping for... not killing it outright with naysay.
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No I am not surprised by that.
I could have been clearer, I don't have a single thing against WoTC or Hasbro. I've been playing this game for over a decade. I'm on a forum giving feedback? Don't you think I care? I've been following this toolset since Day 1 and there has been so little room for discussion. It seems any criticism of WoTC buisness or Curse's deployment is conflated with an attack on the hobby itself, no matter how constructive.
I think WoTC gets cut slack it wouldn't otherwise be cut because of the love people have (myself included) for their product and I was just musing on the strangeness of that. I kind of consider your response a good example, you invoke people's love and the joy it brings people as a defense of the companies that already profit from it. I'm not bashing the hobby at all. I mean I'm here, I care.
Fundamentally I believe it can sustain itself and still be a better deal for us. I don't think these ideas conflict.I think supporting this platform in all manners is a way for developers to overlook under serviced markets, I don't believe you can kill something with naysay and I think that attitude drives people into defensive corners, especially since I literally saying - if you gave me this, I would give you more money and so would most people I play with.
The problem is that your desire is something that Curse literally can do nothing about, but you're bringing to Curse for discussion. I've been vocal about DDB not providing APIs to allow other tools to integrate with DDB so we don't need to spent $30 on every book for every tool that is out there. That's something in the realm that DDB could likely do, and those are the types of conversations to try and have: things under DDB's purview.
However, your ask is to change how WotC sells and distributes its books. It also has no chance of working for those that have already purchased books.
You could ask the same question: why don't I get a roll20 copy or a digital code for roll20 (or FG) when I get a player's handbook? Going to Roll20 or FG to talk about how they should support this is just as nonsensical as bringing it here to.
I've owned a game store, I know what it's like to listen to customers say the same things you are now. They are usually the types (not saying that you are) to play in my free play space, but then go online to buy at the cheapest price because they don't "owe anything" to me or my company. Which they are right, they don't but I don't owe anything to them either. What I am talking about is not necessarily dedication to the company, it is dedication to the people behind the company. The developers currently at WotC are amazing and they are passionate about what they do. If they only cared about making a buck, we'd have 30 source books by now and we would have 5 miniature sets a year. We would be seeing them licensing with anyone under the sun so make the money, and in 7 years when it is saturated, they would make a new edition and start all over again.
My wife is an aspiring writer and I am working towards being a content developer, these fields are large on intellectual property, so when people talk about wanting to double dip and license products in multiple formats for a single price, it breaks me a little. The people who end up writing or creating that content already get so little of the revenue that this sort of attitude only more pushes them out of an increasingly difficult way to make money.
So I guess what I am saying is that while I can sympathize with people who don't have the funds to license the content in multiple formats, I can't for the people who can afford it and just want to have their cake and eat it to.
The most memorable stories always begin with failure.