A multiclass would be a high enough cost for a static feature that didn’t improve anymore without further investing in that other class. But not for a feature that automatically improves. To dip for a feature that improves should take the multiclass, and further ASI investment. Not “either or,” both.
You are trading ASIs for that progress, but you don't consider that an "investment"? Fascinating.
You're not really. You're delaying ASIs, sure, but unless you go out of your way with how you multiclass you're not trading away ASIs. Let's not exaggerate the tradeoff.
If you are going the 10 class dip then you are sure to lose one or two ASIs though.
Edit. This is not a serious comment and should not be taken as such.
A multiclass would be a high enough cost for a static feature that didn’t improve anymore without further investing in that other class. But not for a feature that automatically improves. To dip for a feature that improves should take the multiclass, and further ASI investment. Not “either or,” both.
You are trading ASIs for that progress, but you don't consider that an "investment"? Fascinating.
You're not really. You're delaying ASIs, sure, but unless you go out of your way with how you multiclass you're not trading away ASIs. Let's not exaggerate the tradeoff.
Sposta's hypothetical "meta-pushing" build of 10 classes, all at level 3 or less, would get zero ASIs.
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Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
A multiclass would be a high enough cost for a static feature that didn’t improve anymore without further investing in that other class. But not for a feature that automatically improves. To dip for a feature that improves should take the multiclass, and further ASI investment. Not “either or,” both.
You are trading ASIs for that progress, but you don't consider that an "investment"? Fascinating.
You're not really. You're delaying ASIs, sure, but unless you go out of your way with how you multiclass you're not trading away ASIs. Let's not exaggerate the tradeoff.
If you are going the 10 class dip then you are sure to lose one or two ASIs though
But that is still largely irrelevant if all of those 10 classes grant features that improve automatically. Whatever ASIs remain would still be enough to get 2 stats to 20 assuming Point-buy.
A multiclass would be a high enough cost for a static feature that didn’t improve anymore without further investing in that other class. But not for a feature that automatically improves. To dip for a feature that improves should take the multiclass, and further ASI investment. Not “either or,” both.
You are trading ASIs for that progress, but you don't consider that an "investment"? Fascinating.
You're not really. You're delaying ASIs, sure, but unless you go out of your way with how you multiclass you're not trading away ASIs. Let's not exaggerate the tradeoff.
If you are going the 10 class dip then you are sure to lose one or two ASIs though
But that is still largely irrelevant if all of those 10 classes grant features that improve automatically. Whatever ASIs remain would still be enough to get 2 stats to 20 assuming Point-buy.
A multiclass would be a high enough cost for a static feature that didn’t improve anymore without further investing in that other class. But not for a feature that automatically improves. To dip for a feature that improves should take the multiclass, and further ASI investment. Not “either or,” both.
You are trading ASIs for that progress, but you don't consider that an "investment"? Fascinating.
You're not really. You're delaying ASIs, sure, but unless you go out of your way with how you multiclass you're not trading away ASIs. Let's not exaggerate the tradeoff.
Sposta's hypothetical "meta-pushing" build of 10 classes, all at level 3 or less, would get zero ASIs.
Even if it’s not an exaggerated 1-3*10, even if it’s actually 4-6 levels in each of 4 or 5 classes for the ASIs and Extra Attack, it’s still 🐴💩.
I had nothing better to do with my time, so I checked -- a 10-class build would actually be impossible and still get subclasses in each. There aren't enough classes that get subclasses below level 3.
The best you can do is a nine-class build, including cleric/sorc/lock/druid/wizard, with one level left over to boost one of the four lvl 3 subclass options to lvl 4 for one lonely ASI
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Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
I had nothing better to do with my time, so I checked -- a 10-class build would actually be impossible and still get subclasses in each. There aren't enough classes that get subclasses below level 3.
The best you can do is a nine-class build, including cleric/sorc/lock/druid/wizard, with one level left over to boost one of the four lvl 3 subclass options to lvl 4 for one lonely ASI
Oh good, you proved an obvious exaggeration to be an obvious exaggeration. 👏
But a 4-5 class build, all with 4-6 level still grabs quite a number of ASIs, is entirely doable, and if one focuses on the 💩 that already lends itself to abuse (Fighter + Cha classes for example), it wouldn’t even be terribly difficult. So sure, let’s just make that nightmare even worse. 🤘
Again, this thread asked for people’s opinion. I gave my opinion. Youse all have been trying to tell me my opinion is wrong. It’s a ******* opinion. By definition it cannot be wrong. So kindly please all stop arguing with my opinion in an attempt to convince me to change it. I won’t. If youse all have a problem with what someone voices as their opinion, maybe try over in the Rules & Game Mechanics forum where opinions are irrelevant. Over here in General Discussion I’m allowed my own opinions, and shouldn’t need to defend them, or be hounded by 4+ other users who just so happen to disagree. (Especially since most of you are folks I respect.) You disagree. Yahtzee. But my opinion is not wrong. It’s an opinion.
Its not something I generally worry about since 90% of campaigns end by 10th level.
So if you want to MC to get a bunch of Prof. bonus use stuff its not going to matter much as you will be giving up so much from the the classes to get them.
Plus depending on the stats the DC for some of these things are going to be terrible.
The only one I can think of that would actually stack well would be Psi Fighter/Soulknife rogue.
But you would need to get 3 levels of each...so you would not get extra attack from fighter or uncanny dodge from rogue until 8th level...or when your campaign is likely about 80% over.
Also your psi die will not get any better than d8s so for some stuff its just gonna be just ok for the entirety of the build. Granted you would only need to deal with DEX and INT with the build but its nothing out of the ordinary for 5e.
Again, this thread asked for people’s opinion. I gave my opinion. Youse all have been trying to tell me my opinion is wrong. It’s a ****ing opinion. By definition it cannot be wrong. So kindly please all stop arguing with my opinion in an attempt to convince me to change it. I won’t. If youse all have a problem with what someone voices as their opinion, maybe try over in the Rules & Game Mechanics forum where opinions are irrelevant. Over here in General Discussion I’m allowed my own opinions, and shouldn’t need to defend them, or be hounded by 4 other users who just so happen to disagree. You disagree. Yahtzee. But my opinion is not wrong. It’s an opinion.
Sorry. I didn't intend to come across as argumentative nor did I want to change your opinion. I just wanted to better understand your position.
If youse all have a problem with what someone voices as their opinion, maybe try over in the Rules & Game Mechanics forum where opinions are irrelevant.
You clearly avoided the umpteen recent "Is teleportation movement, or is it movement?" threads... very smart decision
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Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Come to think of it this isn't exactly a new thing either.
Even without new class features, your PB has always increased even with multiclassing.
Multiclass paladin and warlock? Well your PB continues to go up, which means your weapon/spell attack rolls go up for all classes as well. And your spell save DC continues to go up despite multiclassing. Particularly notable for casting classes, or cases where multiclassing allows you to use better weapons than your starting class.
Again, this thread asked for people’s opinion. I gave my opinion. Youse all have been trying to tell me my opinion is wrong. It’s a ****ing opinion. By definition it cannot be wrong. So kindly please all stop arguing with my opinion in an attempt to convince me to change it. I won’t. If youse all have a problem with what someone voices as their opinion, maybe try over in the Rules & Game Mechanics forum where opinions are irrelevant. Over here in General Discussion I’m allowed my own opinions, and shouldn’t need to defend them, or be hounded by 4 other users who just so happen to disagree. You disagree. Yahtzee. But my opinion is not wrong. It’s an opinion.
Sorry. I didn't intend to come across as argumentative nor did I want to change your opinion. I just wanted to better understand your position.
Thank you. My position has honestly less to do with any of the actual subclasses that currently use the system themselves, or any of the current potential interactions. But if he entire flow of any A/B combo system (in this case Race/Class), is that A stuff competes against A stuff for focus, and B stuff competes with B stuff. In this case, choosing A (race) precludes all other A choices, and competes with them so that each gives unique benefits compared to the others. And the B stuff (classes) can be combined, but that each should require independent attention. In the case of Ability dependent features, yes it is possible for there to be overlap. Boost ing Cha increases Bardic Inspiration, and attack and damage rolls for the Hexblades weapon attacks (and Eldritch Blast), and the Paladin & Sorcerer both benefit so that Frankenstein’s abomination all benefit from that player dumping a single ASI into Cha. However, to pull of that abomination required specifically taking those 2 levels in specifically Hexblade for the Cha to weapons. And that meant the other three had to make room for it. And they had to make all of those other specific pic choices, and make room for the ASIs, and then still invest that ASI in Cha. They had to chase Cha the whole way, and everything else was put on delay while they did that. Reduced Sorcery Points and Metamagic and spell levels across the board and everything else. The whole thing was dedicated to that concept and planned meticulously from the outset. And every ASI they dump into Cha is one not going to Dex for their AC, Skills, and Saves, or Con for their HP and Saves, or Wis for their Skills and Saves, or ain’t for their Skills. Not to mention, to pull that off requires Str 13 that is otherwise wasted because of the build they chased. Every ASI they dump into Cha is one that isn’t stacking GWM/Sharpshooter/Crossbow Expert/Elven Accuracy/Metamagic/Eldritch Adept/Firearm Expert….
But with this PB nonsense, look how much of that investment 👆 is now either made less burdensome or completely mitigated. It’s less shitty to loose spell progression when two or three class features are gonna automatically get better no matter what you spend your ASI on. It’s less shitty to make room for 2 levels of Warlock because you know you can take the Metamagic Adept feat to cover it since you don’t need that scrimped ASI for something else because Restore Balance is gonna get better without touching anything and Cha is already maxed out by 8th level because as a mountain dwarf they could now move their Str boost to Cha and dump their racial armor proficiency since Hexblade 2 will cover it so now you have proficiencies out the wazoo too. It’s the whole darned book I take issue with. Now there’s no trade off for taking one race over another, you can take the one with the traits you want, and the most advantageous ASIs and slap that onto this but ignore them both and they both get better while the player is off chasing some other thing…. Like, people thought I was being facetious when I said I objected to the whole darned book. I really meant the whole darned book. It has completely made the A choice a nonchoice, and it is making the B choices even more frivolous than it already was. It’s was “choose your A and combine your Bs… wisely….” And now it’s “yeah sure, do whatever you want, I’m goin’ on break, tweet me if there’s a problem.”
Bravo Cap’n, and we’ve instructed the band to keep playing no matter what. 🙄
Thank you. My position has honestly less to do with any of the actual subclasses that currently use the system themselves, or any of the current potential interactions. But if he entire flow of any A/B combo system (in this case Race/Class), is that A stuff competes against A stuff for focus, and B stuff competes with B stuff. In this case, choosing A (race) precludes all other A choices, and competes with them so that each gives unique benefits compared to the others. And the B stuff (classes) can be combined, but that each should require independent attention. In the case of Ability dependent features, yes it is possible for there to be overlap. Boost ing Cha increases Bardic Inspiration, and attack and damage rolls for the Hexblades weapon attacks (and Eldritch Blast), and the Paladin & Sorcerer both benefit so that Frankenstein’s abomination all benefit from that player dumping a single ASI into Cha. However, to pull of that abomination required specifically taking those 2 levels in specifically Hexblade for the Cha to weapons. And that meant the other three had to make room for it. And they had to make all of those other specific pic choices, and make room for the ASIs, and then still invest that ASI in Cha. They had to chase Cha the whole way, and everything else was put on delay while they did that. Reduced Sorcery Points and Metamagic and spell levels across the board and everything else. The whole thing was dedicated to that concept and planned meticulously from the outset. And every ASI they dump into Cha is one not going to Dex for their AC, Skills, and Saves, or Con for their HP and Saves, or Wis for their Skills and Saves, or ain’t for their Skills. Not to mention, to pull that off requires Str 13 that is otherwise wasted because of the build they chased. Every ASI they dump into Cha is one that isn’t stacking GWM/Sharpshooter/Crossbow Expert/Elven Accuracy/Metamagic/Eldritch Adept/Firearm Expert….
But with this PB nonsense, look how much of that investment 👆 is now either made less burdensome or completely mitigated...
Yeah, I still don't see it, sorry
The moment you start talking about four-way multi-classing I shrug and go, "Well, that will never happen in a game I'm in", so I just don't see the problem
Let the power gamers and min-maxers have their idea of fun. It has absolutely no impact on me or this body horror-tinged Rune Knight I just started playing, with its dreaded PB-based class feature that would be no more or less useful if it were based on my CON mod instead
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Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Again, this thread asked for people’s opinion. I gave my opinion. Youse all have been trying to tell me my opinion is wrong. It’s a ****ing opinion. By definition it cannot be wrong. So kindly please all stop arguing with my opinion in an attempt to convince me to change it. I won’t. If youse all have a problem with what someone voices as their opinion, maybe try over in the Rules & Game Mechanics forum where opinions are irrelevant. Over here in General Discussion I’m allowed my own opinions, and shouldn’t need to defend them, or be hounded by 4 other users who just so happen to disagree. You disagree. Yahtzee. But my opinion is not wrong. It’s an opinion.
Sorry. I didn't intend to come across as argumentative nor did I want to change your opinion. I just wanted to better understand your position.
Thank you. My position has honestly less to do with any of the actual subclasses that currently use the system themselves, or any of the current potential interactions. But if he entire flow of any A/B combo system (in this case Race/Class), is that A stuff competes against A stuff for focus, and B stuff competes with B stuff. In this case, choosing A (race) precludes all other A choices, and competes with them so that each gives unique benefits compared to the others. And the B stuff (classes) can be combined, but that each should require independent attention. In the case of Ability dependent features, yes it is possible for there to be overlap. Boost ing Cha increases Bardic Inspiration, and attack and damage rolls for the Hexblades weapon attacks (and Eldritch Blast), and the Paladin & Sorcerer both benefit so that Frankenstein’s abomination all benefit from that player dumping a single ASI into Cha. However, to pull of that abomination required specifically taking those 2 levels in specifically Hexblade for the Cha to weapons. And that meant the other three had to make room for it. And they had to make all of those other specific pic choices, and make room for the ASIs, and then still invest that ASI in Cha. They had to chase Cha the whole way, and everything else was put on delay while they did that. Reduced Sorcery Points and Metamagic and spell levels across the board and everything else. The whole thing was dedicated to that concept and planned meticulously from the outset. And every ASI they dump into Cha is one not going to Dex for their AC, Skills, and Saves, or Con for their HP and Saves, or Wis for their Skills and Saves, or ain’t for their Skills. Not to mention, to pull that off requires Str 13 that is otherwise wasted because of the build they chased. Every ASI they dump into Cha is one that isn’t stacking GWM/Sharpshooter/Crossbow Expert/Elven Accuracy/Metamagic/Eldritch Adept/Firearm Expert….
But with this PB nonsense, look how much of that investment 👆 is now either made less burdensome or completely mitigated. It’s less shitty to loose spell progression when two or three class features are gonna automatically get better no matter what you spend your ASI on. It’s less shitty to make room for 2 levels of Warlock because you know you can take the Metamagic Adept feat to cover it since you don’t need that scrimped ASI for something else because Restore Balance is gonna get better without touching anything and Cha is already maxed out by 8th level because as a mountain dwarf they could now move their Str boost to Cha and dump their racial armor proficiency since Hexblade 2 will cover it so now you have proficiencies out the wazoo too. It’s the whole darned book I take issue with. Now there’s no trade off for taking one race over another, you can take the one with the traits you want, and the most advantageous ASIs and slap that onto this but ignore them both and they both get better while the player is off chasing some other thing…. Like, people thought I was being facetious when I said I objected to the whole darned book. I really meant the whole darned book. It has completely made the A choice a nonchoice, and it is making the B choices even more frivolous than it already was. It’s was “choose your A and combine your Bs… wisely….” And now it’s “yeah sure, do whatever you want, I’m goin’ on break, tweet me if there’s a problem.”
Bravo Cap’n, and we’ve instructed the band to keep playing no matter what. 🙄
At the end of the day if players enjoy playing like this the system is perfect for them, and they no doubt have DMs who love DMing these players.
Many other players instead look at this as a massive opportunity to make interesting roleplay options, the half orc who has spent his life learning, taught by his human scholar father (+2 int). The player purposely pics a low strength stat and then roleplays this as the orc and half orc civilization in my world, who value strength, look down on him as a runt.
The Dwarf who found a live for nature, for the above ground, who befriended elves and went against his peoples ways. He gets a +2 dex because he has spent his youth and young adult life practicing over and over with a bow, trained with a sword, climbed trees and run through woods. But he has lost those typical dwarvish traits. How will his own people view him, how will he handle returning back to the underground.
The clumsy tabaxi, who always relied on being the biggest and strongest of her litter but really can’t climb that well.
These are the players I play with, players who don't min max but create interesting characters and can now use the rules to add yet more flavour and detail. If your lowest stat is an 8 and you want the stat you get an ASI in to be that 8 then it makes sense to let the player move it, in 2 of the cases above the stat that the player moved it to does not benefit the class they took. They did it for flavour as part of the story of who the character is.
So just as the min maxers get what they want and can have fun there way, the role players can also now get what they want and have there own kind of fun. If you have players who you feel abuse the system you are probably not the right DM for them, that isn’t Knock on the DM or the players I would not want to DM those players either. It is simply a statement that table probably needs to change to make everyone happy.
If youse all have a problem with what someone voices as their opinion, maybe try over in the Rules & Game Mechanics forum where opinions are irrelevant.
You clearly avoided the umpteen recent "Is teleportation movement, or is it movement?" threads... very smart decision
I made a brief appearance and then got the eff outta there before the Bolivian Army showed up. Someone followed me home, PMed me about it. I got irreverent in proving my point, it was not appreciated. 🤷♂️
Again, this thread asked for people’s opinion. I gave my opinion. Youse all have been trying to tell me my opinion is wrong. It’s a ****ing opinion. By definition it cannot be wrong. So kindly please all stop arguing with my opinion in an attempt to convince me to change it. I won’t. If youse all have a problem with what someone voices as their opinion, maybe try over in the Rules & Game Mechanics forum where opinions are irrelevant. Over here in General Discussion I’m allowed my own opinions, and shouldn’t need to defend them, or be hounded by 4 other users who just so happen to disagree. You disagree. Yahtzee. But my opinion is not wrong. It’s an opinion.
Sorry. I didn't intend to come across as argumentative nor did I want to change your opinion. I just wanted to better understand your position.
Thank you. My position has honestly less to do with any of the actual subclasses that currently use the system themselves, or any of the current potential interactions. But if he entire flow of any A/B combo system (in this case Race/Class), is that A stuff competes against A stuff for focus, and B stuff competes with B stuff. In this case, choosing A (race) precludes all other A choices, and competes with them so that each gives unique benefits compared to the others. And the B stuff (classes) can be combined, but that each should require independent attention. In the case of Ability dependent features, yes it is possible for there to be overlap. Boost ing Cha increases Bardic Inspiration, and attack and damage rolls for the Hexblades weapon attacks (and Eldritch Blast), and the Paladin & Sorcerer both benefit so that Frankenstein’s abomination all benefit from that player dumping a single ASI into Cha. However, to pull of that abomination required specifically taking those 2 levels in specifically Hexblade for the Cha to weapons. And that meant the other three had to make room for it. And they had to make all of those other specific pic choices, and make room for the ASIs, and then still invest that ASI in Cha. They had to chase Cha the whole way, and everything else was put on delay while they did that. Reduced Sorcery Points and Metamagic and spell levels across the board and everything else. The whole thing was dedicated to that concept and planned meticulously from the outset. And every ASI they dump into Cha is one not going to Dex for their AC, Skills, and Saves, or Con for their HP and Saves, or Wis for their Skills and Saves, or ain’t for their Skills. Not to mention, to pull that off requires Str 13 that is otherwise wasted because of the build they chased. Every ASI they dump into Cha is one that isn’t stacking GWM/Sharpshooter/Crossbow Expert/Elven Accuracy/Metamagic/Eldritch Adept/Firearm Expert….
But with this PB nonsense, look how much of that investment 👆 is now either made less burdensome or completely mitigated. It’s less shitty to loose spell progression when two or three class features are gonna automatically get better no matter what you spend your ASI on. It’s less shitty to make room for 2 levels of Warlock because you know you can take the Metamagic Adept feat to cover it since you don’t need that scrimped ASI for something else because Restore Balance is gonna get better without touching anything and Cha is already maxed out by 8th level because as a mountain dwarf they could now move their Str boost to Cha and dump their racial armor proficiency since Hexblade 2 will cover it so now you have proficiencies out the wazoo too. It’s the whole darned book I take issue with. Now there’s no trade off for taking one race over another, you can take the one with the traits you want, and the most advantageous ASIs and slap that onto this but ignore them both and they both get better while the player is off chasing some other thing…. Like, people thought I was being facetious when I said I objected to the whole darned book. I really meant the whole darned book. It has completely made the A choice a nonchoice, and it is making the B choices even more frivolous than it already was. It’s was “choose your A and combine your Bs… wisely….” And now it’s “yeah sure, do whatever you want, I’m goin’ on break, tweet me if there’s a problem.”
Bravo Cap’n, and we’ve instructed the band to keep playing no matter what. 🙄
Thanks for the explanation. I don't fully agree, but I do see where you are coming from now. I won't press the issue any further.
I do reserve my right to alter my opinion in the future should problematic subclasses make an appearance :)
At the end of the day if players enjoy playing like this the system is perfect for them, and they no doubt have DMs who love DMing these players.
Many other players instead look at this as a massive opportunity to make interesting roleplay options, the half orc who has spent his life learning, taught by his human scholar father (+2 int). The player purposely pics a low strength stat and then roleplays this as the orc and half orc civilization in my world, who value strength, look down on him as a runt.
You could already make that character. The issue is that +2 isn’t supposed to represent you growing up at pappy’s knee learnin’ just as it isn’t meant to represent a childhood of combat training when it goes into Str. Putting the highest number you got into Int (or Str) represents what you spent your childhood doing. That +2 is meant to represent the fact that no matter what you spent your childhood doing you will inevitably be bigger and stronger than an equivalent human kid. So putting the 15 in Int and the 8 in Str is what gives you a runt (Str 10 is a runt for an Orc) and a childhood of book learnin.’ And if the 8 is too high and the 15 too low, that’s what rolled stats are for. Then you can put that hard 5 you rolled into Str and that amazing 18 into Int and now you got a smarter, weaker Orc even with the +2 in Str.
Researcher. When the Sage attempts to learn or recall a piece of lore, if it does not know that information, it often* know where and from whom it can be obtained. Usually, this information comes from a library, scriptorium, university, or another sage or other learned person or creature. *(The knowledge it seeks might be secreted away in an almost inaccessible place, or that it simply cannot be found.)
Actions
Handaxe. Melee or Ranged Weapon Attack:+3 to hit, reach 5 ft. or range 20/60 ft., one target. Hit: 4 (1d6 + 1) slashing damage.
Bonus Actions
Aggressive. As a bonus action, most Orcs can move up 30 ft. (their speed) toward an enemy of their choice that they can see or hear, and must end this move closer to that enemy than they started.
Description
Most of the orcs that stay behind when the warriors go on their raids are weaker than their tribe mates or otherwise not suited for a life of battle. Worshipers of Luthic fall into this category, as do some of those that revere Yurtrus or Shargaas. But even these orcs are trained in combat, and all of them are expected to act like warriors if the lair is attacked or threatened. Their numbers are augmented by any orogs in the tribe, which are primarily responsible for making sure that the lair is protected from intruders.
An Orc Sage has spent years learning the lore of the multiverse. It scoured manuscripts, studied scrolls, and listened to the greatest experts on the subjects that interested it. Those efforts have made the Orc Sage a master in its fields of study.
Specialty
To determine the nature of the Sage’s scholarly training, roll a d8 or choose from the options in the table below.
Anything smarter and weaker than that is a “smart runt” by Orc standards.
If that +2 was the only thing holding someone back from making an Orc Wizard before, then they are the Min-Maxers. This isn’t “a new roleplay opportunity” at all. The exact same opportunity was already there before. Now it’s just an excuse to do it without having suboptimized stats. But again, if stat optimization is what was preventing it before then RP isn’t your focus, powergaming is. And now you just don’t have to feel limited by your own powergaming. If RP was your focus, you would already be playing that PC and stats be damned.
The same goes for the nimble Dwarf or the clumsy Tabaxi. It’s all the same. A “clumsy” Tabaxi will still be no clumsier than an average human. To a Tabaxi, 10 Dex is clumsy. And if you want lower, roll. I can almost guarantee you’ll end up with one or more trash scores that you could plug into Dex and be thankful for the +2 where it is.
PS- If I rolled #7 on that I would totally slap on Magic Initiate (Wizard) and give it 2 Cantrips and a single 1st level spell, maybe swap the Handaxe for a Quarterstaff and Dagger.
Anything that makes the game easier for the players is bad idea. Any PB focused feature falls into that category.
Tasha's is riddled with new buffs to classes and subclasses with zero tradeoffs, just a straight gift.
I am so sick of the "the game must be easier for me to have fun" crowd.
Some of us actually LOVE playing within a set of restrictive set of rules, not opening the floodgates like Tasha's did. Not nearly enough of us, but some. We recognize that playing a harder game actually takes MORE creativity to accomplish something, and a mastery of the actual rules. And when something is accomplished in such a game, it is way more satisfying, and lasting.
But no, WOTC said, "tell you what, we will soften all the restrictions, by giving you way more stuff your classes can do. There are the cheat codes in Tashas, so buy the book."
You do know that as DM you can sic anything you want against them, even making creatures up completely on the spot.... it is not a Them vs You game. The DM has infinite power.
I was speaking as player when I wrote what I just did, not as a DM.
The game is too easy. From either side of the table. Good players, who in my opinion = ones who know the rules, and maximize their effectiveness within those rules, should be rewarded. Players who can't be bothered to grasp the basic concepts of the game and decide to go off book and hope the DM thinks their actions are cool and allow them should not be rewarded."
Here is a missive I just sent to a DM of a new campaign that is gearing up tomorrow. He and I have already discussed the fact that I like to place restrictions on my chars that are tougher than even RAW, and he is fine with that. Hopefully, the following blurb will reveal my mindset. If everyone thought and played like this it would be a far more challenging game, and certainly easier for the DM to adjudicate, while many players, especially the new ones, would hate it:
"Going with the idea that I like to make things more difficult for my char, a question for you. Would you be OK with the following? Though the PHB does not specifically say this, I am going to assume that any new spells I learn when I level up (2 per level) must follow the same costs of writing them into my book as copying them into my book from some other source, like a scroll. Further, I am debating on the idea that though I can be anywhere when I attempt a copy of a spell into my spellbook (assuming I have the inks/ mat components available), when it comes to acquiring new spells when I level up, that can't be done on the road/ in a dungeon. Though it might be handwaved, I still need downtime in a library/lab/quiet place to research/experiment. So when we level up, my guy would need some downtime, likely in a fairly urban setting/ friendly wizard's tower, to get the spells into my book. What do you think?"
This last part really feels like that meme where the guy is riding his bike, puts a stick in the wheel, then complains its someone else's fault that he fell off. Like, you are literally choosing to make the game harder for yourself (which is fine if that is fun for you) and then complaining about the game being so much easier for everyone else, even when everyone else isn't "going off book" by using officially published materials like Tashas
Hardly. It is more like the guy that who adds a 10 kilo weight to his bike because the ride is too easy otherwise, and shaking his head at a number of riders adding a motor to their bikes because they think the ride is too hard, and then looking at the organizers of the ride who are advertising for sale the motors in the first place.
So you just think you are better than everyone else just because you like to add a challenge, whereas other people are just out for a ride on a nice day? Not everyone plays D&D to "work out" some are just wanting to have fun with their friends. No one is stopping you from riding your bike with extra challenge, but you seem to be intent on telling the ones that are cruising along that they should get out of your lane
Again, everything you complain about is the fault of the players and not the game. And most of the things you complain about seem to rather extreme examples and not the norm...
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If you are going the 10 class dip then you are sure to lose one or two ASIs though.
Edit. This is not a serious comment and should not be taken as such.
She/Her Player and Dungeon Master
Sposta's hypothetical "meta-pushing" build of 10 classes, all at level 3 or less, would get zero ASIs.
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
But that is still largely irrelevant if all of those 10 classes grant features that improve automatically. Whatever ASIs remain would still be enough to get 2 stats to 20 assuming Point-buy.
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Crap, I didn't add the edit fast enough
She/Her Player and Dungeon Master
Nope. You didn’t.
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Even if it’s not an exaggerated 1-3*10, even if it’s actually 4-6 levels in each of 4 or 5 classes for the ASIs and Extra Attack, it’s still 🐴💩.
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I had nothing better to do with my time, so I checked -- a 10-class build would actually be impossible and still get subclasses in each. There aren't enough classes that get subclasses below level 3.
The best you can do is a nine-class build, including cleric/sorc/lock/druid/wizard, with one level left over to boost one of the four lvl 3 subclass options to lvl 4 for one lonely ASI
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Oh good, you proved an obvious exaggeration to be an obvious exaggeration. 👏
But a 4-5 class build, all with 4-6 level still grabs quite a number of ASIs, is entirely doable, and if one focuses on the 💩 that already lends itself to abuse (Fighter + Cha classes for example), it wouldn’t even be terribly difficult. So sure, let’s just make that nightmare even worse. 🤘
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Again, this thread asked for people’s opinion. I gave my opinion. Youse all have been trying to tell me my opinion is wrong. It’s a ******* opinion. By definition it cannot be wrong. So kindly please all stop arguing with my opinion in an attempt to convince me to change it. I won’t. If youse all have a problem with what someone voices as their opinion, maybe try over in the Rules & Game Mechanics forum where opinions are irrelevant. Over here in General Discussion I’m allowed my own opinions, and shouldn’t need to defend them, or be hounded by 4+ other users who just so happen to disagree. (Especially since most of you are folks I respect.) You disagree. Yahtzee. But my opinion is not wrong. It’s an opinion.
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Its not something I generally worry about since 90% of campaigns end by 10th level.
So if you want to MC to get a bunch of Prof. bonus use stuff its not going to matter much as you will be giving up so much from the the classes to get them.
Plus depending on the stats the DC for some of these things are going to be terrible.
The only one I can think of that would actually stack well would be Psi Fighter/Soulknife rogue.
But you would need to get 3 levels of each...so you would not get extra attack from fighter or uncanny dodge from rogue until 8th level...or when your campaign is likely about 80% over.
Also your psi die will not get any better than d8s so for some stuff its just gonna be just ok for the entirety of the build. Granted you would only need to deal with DEX and INT with the build but its nothing out of the ordinary for 5e.
Sorry. I didn't intend to come across as argumentative nor did I want to change your opinion. I just wanted to better understand your position.
She/Her Player and Dungeon Master
You clearly avoided the umpteen recent "Is teleportation movement, or is it movement?" threads... very smart decision
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Come to think of it this isn't exactly a new thing either.
Even without new class features, your PB has always increased even with multiclassing.
Multiclass paladin and warlock? Well your PB continues to go up, which means your weapon/spell attack rolls go up for all classes as well. And your spell save DC continues to go up despite multiclassing. Particularly notable for casting classes, or cases where multiclassing allows you to use better weapons than your starting class.
Thank you. My position has honestly less to do with any of the actual subclasses that currently use the system themselves, or any of the current potential interactions. But if he entire flow of any A/B combo system (in this case Race/Class), is that A stuff competes against A stuff for focus, and B stuff competes with B stuff. In this case, choosing A (race) precludes all other A choices, and competes with them so that each gives unique benefits compared to the others. And the B stuff (classes) can be combined, but that each should require independent attention. In the case of Ability dependent features, yes it is possible for there to be overlap. Boost ing Cha increases Bardic Inspiration, and attack and damage rolls for the Hexblades weapon attacks (and Eldritch Blast), and the Paladin & Sorcerer both benefit so that Frankenstein’s abomination all benefit from that player dumping a single ASI into Cha. However, to pull of that abomination required specifically taking those 2 levels in specifically Hexblade for the Cha to weapons. And that meant the other three had to make room for it. And they had to make all of those other specific pic choices, and make room for the ASIs, and then still invest that ASI in Cha. They had to chase Cha the whole way, and everything else was put on delay while they did that. Reduced Sorcery Points and Metamagic and spell levels across the board and everything else. The whole thing was dedicated to that concept and planned meticulously from the outset. And every ASI they dump into Cha is one not going to Dex for their AC, Skills, and Saves, or Con for their HP and Saves, or Wis for their Skills and Saves, or ain’t for their Skills. Not to mention, to pull that off requires Str 13 that is otherwise wasted because of the build they chased. Every ASI they dump into Cha is one that isn’t stacking GWM/Sharpshooter/Crossbow Expert/Elven Accuracy/Metamagic/Eldritch Adept/Firearm Expert….
But with this PB nonsense, look how much of that investment 👆 is now either made less burdensome or completely mitigated. It’s less shitty to loose spell progression when two or three class features are gonna automatically get better no matter what you spend your ASI on. It’s less shitty to make room for 2 levels of Warlock because you know you can take the Metamagic Adept feat to cover it since you don’t need that scrimped ASI for something else because Restore Balance is gonna get better without touching anything and Cha is already maxed out by 8th level because as a mountain dwarf they could now move their Str boost to Cha and dump their racial armor proficiency since Hexblade 2 will cover it so now you have proficiencies out the wazoo too. It’s the whole darned book I take issue with. Now there’s no trade off for taking one race over another, you can take the one with the traits you want, and the most advantageous ASIs and slap that onto this but ignore them both and they both get better while the player is off chasing some other thing…. Like, people thought I was being facetious when I said I objected to the whole darned book. I really meant the whole darned book. It has completely made the A choice a nonchoice, and it is making the B choices even more frivolous than it already was. It’s was “choose your A and combine your Bs… wisely….” And now it’s “yeah sure, do whatever you want, I’m goin’ on break, tweet me if there’s a problem.”
Bravo Cap’n, and we’ve instructed the band to keep playing no matter what. 🙄
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Yeah, I still don't see it, sorry
The moment you start talking about four-way multi-classing I shrug and go, "Well, that will never happen in a game I'm in", so I just don't see the problem
Let the power gamers and min-maxers have their idea of fun. It has absolutely no impact on me or this body horror-tinged Rune Knight I just started playing, with its dreaded PB-based class feature that would be no more or less useful if it were based on my CON mod instead
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
At the end of the day if players enjoy playing like this the system is perfect for them, and they no doubt have DMs who love DMing these players.
Many other players instead look at this as a massive opportunity to make interesting roleplay options, the half orc who has spent his life learning, taught by his human scholar father (+2 int). The player purposely pics a low strength stat and then roleplays this as the orc and half orc civilization in my world, who value strength, look down on him as a runt.
The Dwarf who found a live for nature, for the above ground, who befriended elves and went against his peoples ways. He gets a +2 dex because he has spent his youth and young adult life practicing over and over with a bow, trained with a sword, climbed trees and run through woods. But he has lost those typical dwarvish traits. How will his own people view him, how will he handle returning back to the underground.
The clumsy tabaxi, who always relied on being the biggest and strongest of her litter but really can’t climb that well.
These are the players I play with, players who don't min max but create interesting characters and can now use the rules to add yet more flavour and detail. If your lowest stat is an 8 and you want the stat you get an ASI in to be that 8 then it makes sense to let the player move it, in 2 of the cases above the stat that the player moved it to does not benefit the class they took. They did it for flavour as part of the story of who the character is.
So just as the min maxers get what they want and can have fun there way, the role players can also now get what they want and have there own kind of fun. If you have players who you feel abuse the system you are probably not the right DM for them, that isn’t Knock on the DM or the players I would not want to DM those players either. It is simply a statement that table probably needs to change to make everyone happy.
I made a brief appearance and then got the eff outta there before the Bolivian Army showed up. Someone followed me home, PMed me about it. I got irreverent in proving my point, it was not appreciated. 🤷♂️
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Thanks for the explanation. I don't fully agree, but I do see where you are coming from now. I won't press the issue any further.
I do reserve my right to alter my opinion in the future should problematic subclasses make an appearance :)
She/Her Player and Dungeon Master
You could already make that character. The issue is that +2 isn’t supposed to represent you growing up at pappy’s knee learnin’ just as it isn’t meant to represent a childhood of combat training when it goes into Str. Putting the highest number you got into Int (or Str) represents what you spent your childhood doing. That +2 is meant to represent the fact that no matter what you spent your childhood doing you will inevitably be bigger and stronger than an equivalent human kid. So putting the 15 in Int and the 8 in Str is what gives you a runt (Str 10 is a runt for an Orc) and a childhood of book learnin.’ And if the 8 is too high and the 15 too low, that’s what rolled stats are for. Then you can put that hard 5 you rolled into Str and that amazing 18 into Int and now you got a smarter, weaker Orc even with the +2 in Str.
This is an “average Orc Sage:”
Anything smarter and weaker than that is a “smart runt” by Orc standards.
If that +2 was the only thing holding someone back from making an Orc Wizard before, then they are the Min-Maxers. This isn’t “a new roleplay opportunity” at all. The exact same opportunity was already there before. Now it’s just an excuse to do it without having suboptimized stats. But again, if stat optimization is what was preventing it before then RP isn’t your focus, powergaming is. And now you just don’t have to feel limited by your own powergaming. If RP was your focus, you would already be playing that PC and stats be damned.
The same goes for the nimble Dwarf or the clumsy Tabaxi. It’s all the same. A “clumsy” Tabaxi will still be no clumsier than an average human. To a Tabaxi, 10 Dex is clumsy. And if you want lower, roll. I can almost guarantee you’ll end up with one or more trash scores that you could plug into Dex and be thankful for the +2 where it is.
PS- If I rolled #7 on that I would totally slap on Magic Initiate (Wizard) and give it 2 Cantrips and a single 1st level spell, maybe swap the Handaxe for a Quarterstaff and Dagger.
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Again, everything you complain about is the fault of the players and not the game. And most of the things you complain about seem to rather extreme examples and not the norm...