In short, you never know how amazing, or similar, something is until you take a closer look, and maybe experience a bit of it for yourself.
Which makes it easy to reskin something. Take the Life Domain, pick spells you associate with water to prepare - hey presto, Water cleric.
So whats the fear? that adding a water cleric would somehow rob us of the class you want added in? Reskinning could be said for practically any idea at this point in D&D we have tons of options to piece a concept together.
Not everyone needs to be "wow awesome!" but seriously no need to be a constant jerk about it. "OVERLAP!!!!!!" yeah what doesn't overlap? we've seen a lot of that already, just because restoration and cure wounds? I didn't say bless, spiritual weapon, beacon of hope, any res powers, death ward or guardain of faith, but than suggested spells like control water, wall of water and tidal wave. but because two spells overlap some holy crap this can't be done, because there's is a shared theme involved in someway? (healing and cleansing) than how do we have overlap with things like spiritual weapon on war and life, death ward on death and life. It's gonna happen.
It's not fear and trying to act like it is is a bad faith argument. It's about how many players don't see the reason to add more subclasses that are only going to be minor variations of existing subclasses.
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Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
I think it's more a matter of Thematic overlap. Healing and Cleansing are really vague and can be justified with several of the current cleric subclasses as others have mentioned. Given the lack of any unique ideas for features or as of yet otherwise unexplored mechanics, it gets hard to justify an entire subclass for something that thus far has been described as "It's different because it has two/three spells that other clerics don't have."
Perhaps defining the base idea beyond what had already been presented would help us understand your idea. I would suggest instead of Ocean (which is something that is specifically an ocean and not water as a whole as you compared to fire earlier), you could make it a Tidal Cleric. Tidal having to do with water, motion, the moon, so on and so forth. Seems much more unique amongst the current cleric subclasses with more customizability than 'Ocean' which by definition confined to being exclusively ocean.
Of course, it is up to you what fight you want to fight. I don't think anyone is arguing against having more things in the game just as long as those things are added are not reductive or redundant.
It's not fear and trying to act like it is is a bad faith argument. It's about how many players don't see the reason to add more subclasses that are only going to be minor variations of existing subclasses.
I think it's more a matter of Thematic overlap. Healing and Cleansing are really vague and can be justified with several of the current cleric subclasses as others have mentioned. Given the lack of any unique ideas for features or as of yet otherwise unexplored mechanics, it gets hard to justify an entire subclass for something that thus far has been described as "It's different because it has two/three spells that other clerics don't have."
Perhaps defining the base idea beyond what had already been presented would help us understand your idea. I would suggest instead of Ocean (which is something that is specifically an ocean and not water as a whole as you compared to fire earlier), you could make it a Tidal Cleric. Tidal having to do with water, motion, the moon, so on and so forth. Seems much more unique amongst the current cleric subclasses with more customizability than 'Ocean' which by definition confined to being exclusively ocean.
Of course, it is up to you what fight you want to fight. I don't think anyone is arguing against having more things in the game just as long as those things are added are not reductive or redundant.
I kinda get the idea you two didn't even read what I suggested if the opening line of cleansing/healing opening up cure wounds and restoration is the only part your looking at. I offered up a lot of options like walls, tidal wave, conjure elementals. aoe heal, knock downs, rejuvenating spell slots, empowering you allies with rolling tides of energy, ensares, roots and drags.
I spit balled far more than lesser restoration and cure wounds, and to me it comes across as the jealous fear that people get when a certain subclass makes it into a book and the assumption that wizards cut the thing they wanted to present it. The classic "oooh we just had to get another X class instead of Y class EYEROLL WotC". We could very well say the same thing about just any class these days. Ppl still clamoring for the warlord? just tell em to reskin the battlemaster and take abilities like commanding strike or play a paladin and use your buff spells and reflavor em to not be magical. But I bet warlord could still be really interesting
A person who opens by preemptively insulting anyone who doesn't find their creation the most stunning example of creativity ever will rarely find that it accomplishes anything but sharpen the claws of critics.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
A person who opens by preemptively insulting anyone who doesn't find their creation the most stunning example of creativity ever will rarely find that it accomplishes anything but sharpen the claws of critics.
I said specifically people don't need to find it interesting, but to simply say "overlap" because two abilities suggested out of a plethora offered up in a few minutes shows he didn't bother to read it or like many ppl out there has a distain for something else preferred to see. I don't see the value of a lot of suggestions in this forum but I won't latch onto a single part of an idea to simply dismiss it wholesale because like stated in his first post, cleric has a lot of subclasses already.
That to me is a clear indication that he doesn't like the idea based on there being to many cleric subclasses and most likely finds it upsetting due to his feel of lack of development on other classes. Maybe if he tried to engage in some kinda discourse like IamSposta I'd feel different other than just upset at the idea of more clerics
I have no problems with adding more things to Dnd 5e as long as the things that are added are not reductive or redundant.
What you have put forward so far has not been anything that isn't currently in the game with the current cleric. There are plenty AoE Healing, control, buffing, and restoration spells available to clerics. The specific examples of Tidal Wave, and a restricted Conjure Elementals are two spells that the clerics do not currently have access to do not warrant a full new subclass. All clerics are able (with tasha's) to recover spell slots via the use of their channel divinity.
The idea of Water+better at Heal is a good starting point but is too vague and calling it an Ocean Domain insinuates that it cant be used for anything aside from Ocean things. Hence my suggestion to call it Tidal, or Aquatic, or Lunar, or something that isn't tied to a single specific thing. Life, Death, Twilight, Peace, Order, even Forge are all things that are not tied to a single specific location. Tied to a specific theme? Sure, Forge = creation. Twilight = inbetween+ balance. Life = ...life. Ocean = Ocean. There is no argument that Ocean = anything else because you have called it Ocean. Going back to the concept of Water + better heal, You even said yourself that you didn't think of anything that could be good for a capstone for the subclass, showing just how ill-defined the premise you've put forward to us is even within your own mind.
I have no problem with the general idea that you have put forward. However, I find that it needs to be defined beyond what you have presented to warrant further discussion of if it would be a good idea or not to include something similar within the game. Adding something 'just because' doesn't vibe with me.
Personally, I think something like what you described would make a lot more sense as a ranger subclass. A big heal and/or battlefield control ranger specialization doesn't really exist within the current iteration of the game.
TL:DR - What you have described is way too loose a concept and exists within the game already in several forms and under several different names. Just because you want something doesn't mean it should exist.
That to me is a clear indication that he doesn't like the idea based on there being to many cleric subclasses and most likely finds it upsetting due to his feel of lack of development on other classes. Maybe if he tried to engage in some kinda discourse like IamSposta I'd feel different other than just upset at the idea of more clerics
I am trying to have a kind discourse with you by presenting what I feel is a problem with what you put forward. Nowhere did I say I disliked it because there are too many cleric subclass. All I said was the idea you presented was, as others pointed out, overlapping with what around half of the other cleric's themes are. This is not in and of itself an issue, I mean about half of the other clerics also fall into the same theme, I just think it would be better if it was defined beyond what you presented which is Ocean & Heal+. I would love to discuss what those themes could be, and I have put forward several that I think are worth discussing.
I said specifically people don't need to find it interesting, but to simply say "overlap" because two abilities suggested out of a plethora offered up in a few minutes shows he didn't bother to read it or like many ppl out there has a distain for something else preferred to see.
Clerics are rife with abjuration and healing options already. Adding a handful more spells to that existing selection doesn't really create a new theme for them. "Overlap" is a bit pithy as a comment, but doesn't refer to spell choices specifically: healing and cleansing are core themes for the class - in that sense the Life cleric itself is already a bit superfluous.
The opening post asks why WotC is "afraid" to add certain types of clerics. Tone of questioning aside, the bottom line is that a lot of the suggested flavours already exist in the game. Maybe not enough for some, but that's not a rebuttal of the argument. WotC have elected to add 14 cleric domains already. Healing and cleansing being intrinsic to the core class already is likely a significant part of the reason not to use it as a main theme for one of those 14.
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That to me is a clear indication that he doesn't like the idea based on there being to many cleric subclasses and most likely finds it upsetting due to his feel of lack of development on other classes. Maybe if he tried to engage in some kinda discourse like IamSposta I'd feel different other than just upset at the idea of more clerics
I am trying to have a kind discourse with you by presenting what I feel is a problem with what you put forward. Nowhere did I say I disliked it because there are too many cleric subclass. All I said was the idea you presented was, as others pointed out, overlapping with what around half of the other cleric's themes are. This is not in and of itself an issue, I mean about half of the other clerics also fall into the same theme, I just think it would be better if it was defined beyond what you presented which is Ocean & Heal+. I would love to discuss what those themes could be, and I have put forward several that I think are worth discussing.
Sorry i wasn't referring to you in the post you quoted but referring to discourse from pangurjan which is what my statement of fearful is from, not what you two had said. I just said I didnt feel like you two read what I said beyond the restoration part.
As for the other comments some of what you say is subjective, that it would be better served as a ranger. Sure.. I can see that in some situations, rangers don't really do a lot of spells or control or.. really much beyond some marks and tracking and stuff so I personally dont see it but theres a case to be made sure.
Saying spells don't reall warrant a subclass, kinda literally the whole shtick behind the attraction of the Light Cleric and the Wildfire Druid (least the UA till they removed fireball and firebolt) and divine sorcerer. It shouldn't be the only thing the subclass has going for it but borrowing spells has a draw.
For the capstone.. I mean yeah, I literally came up with ideas in a few minutes this wasn't suppose to be "HERE IS THE WATER CLERIC" it was examples of ideas that go beyond simply waterbreathing, swimspeeds and having to be in the Ocean for it to function. I even said this wasn't some homebrew but a spit-balling of ideas that could be enacted to see or guide a class into being. That's exactly why it's not super focused either these where just ideas for Sporta to show him that no it doesn't need to be on the ocean for it to be useful elsewhere.
Though I will say I did forget about the Tasha's optional when I made the spell recovery suggestion, probably where the idea came from
Calling it Tidal or Aquatic or Water instead of Ocean is fine, Lunar.. not really the concept in mind I always associate Lunar more with werewolves 'n such because of Selune, but the idea is suppose to be the seas/water/whatever not really the moon
Also adding things just because is.. literally exactly why the majority of these subclasses exist.. So I don't exactly see that hang up myself
So whats the fear? that adding a water cleric would somehow rob us of the class you want added in? Reskinning could be said for practically any idea at this point in D&D we have tons of options to piece a concept together.
Not everyone needs to be "wow awesome!" but seriously no need to be a constant jerk about it. "OVERLAP!!!!!!" yeah what doesn't overlap? we've seen a lot of that already, just because restoration and cure wounds? I didn't say bless, spiritual weapon, beacon of hope, any res powers, death ward or guardain of faith, but than suggested spells like control water, wall of water and tidal wave. but because two spells overlap some holy crap this can't be done, because there's is a shared theme involved in someway? (healing and cleansing) than how do we have overlap with things like spiritual weapon on war and life, death ward on death and life. It's gonna happen.
It's not fear and trying to act like it is is a bad faith argument. It's about how many players don't see the reason to add more subclasses that are only going to be minor variations of existing subclasses.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
I think it's more a matter of Thematic overlap. Healing and Cleansing are really vague and can be justified with several of the current cleric subclasses as others have mentioned. Given the lack of any unique ideas for features or as of yet otherwise unexplored mechanics, it gets hard to justify an entire subclass for something that thus far has been described as "It's different because it has two/three spells that other clerics don't have."
Perhaps defining the base idea beyond what had already been presented would help us understand your idea. I would suggest instead of Ocean (which is something that is specifically an ocean and not water as a whole as you compared to fire earlier), you could make it a Tidal Cleric. Tidal having to do with water, motion, the moon, so on and so forth. Seems much more unique amongst the current cleric subclasses with more customizability than 'Ocean' which by definition confined to being exclusively ocean.
Of course, it is up to you what fight you want to fight. I don't think anyone is arguing against having more things in the game just as long as those things are added are not reductive or redundant.
Buyers Guide for D&D Beyond - Hardcover Books, D&D Beyond and You - How/What is Toggled Content?
Everything you need to know about Homebrew - Homebrew FAQ - Digital Book on D&D Beyond Vs Physical Books
Can't find the content you are supposed to have access to? Read this FAQ.
"Play the game however you want to play the game. After all, your fun doesn't threaten my fun."
I kinda get the idea you two didn't even read what I suggested if the opening line of cleansing/healing opening up cure wounds and restoration is the only part your looking at. I offered up a lot of options like walls, tidal wave, conjure elementals. aoe heal, knock downs, rejuvenating spell slots, empowering you allies with rolling tides of energy, ensares, roots and drags.
I spit balled far more than lesser restoration and cure wounds, and to me it comes across as the jealous fear that people get when a certain subclass makes it into a book and the assumption that wizards cut the thing they wanted to present it. The classic "oooh we just had to get another X class instead of Y class EYEROLL WotC". We could very well say the same thing about just any class these days. Ppl still clamoring for the warlord? just tell em to reskin the battlemaster and take abilities like commanding strike or play a paladin and use your buff spells and reflavor em to not be magical. But I bet warlord could still be really interesting
A person who opens by preemptively insulting anyone who doesn't find their creation the most stunning example of creativity ever will rarely find that it accomplishes anything but sharpen the claws of critics.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
I said specifically people don't need to find it interesting, but to simply say "overlap" because two abilities suggested out of a plethora offered up in a few minutes shows he didn't bother to read it or like many ppl out there has a distain for something else preferred to see. I don't see the value of a lot of suggestions in this forum but I won't latch onto a single part of an idea to simply dismiss it wholesale because like stated in his first post, cleric has a lot of subclasses already.
That to me is a clear indication that he doesn't like the idea based on there being to many cleric subclasses and most likely finds it upsetting due to his feel of lack of development on other classes. Maybe if he tried to engage in some kinda discourse like IamSposta I'd feel different other than just upset at the idea of more clerics
Okay, I will be very clear.
I have no problems with adding more things to Dnd 5e as long as the things that are added are not reductive or redundant.
What you have put forward so far has not been anything that isn't currently in the game with the current cleric. There are plenty AoE Healing, control, buffing, and restoration spells available to clerics. The specific examples of Tidal Wave, and a restricted Conjure Elementals are two spells that the clerics do not currently have access to do not warrant a full new subclass. All clerics are able (with tasha's) to recover spell slots via the use of their channel divinity.
The idea of Water+better at Heal is a good starting point but is too vague and calling it an Ocean Domain insinuates that it cant be used for anything aside from Ocean things. Hence my suggestion to call it Tidal, or Aquatic, or Lunar, or something that isn't tied to a single specific thing. Life, Death, Twilight, Peace, Order, even Forge are all things that are not tied to a single specific location. Tied to a specific theme? Sure, Forge = creation. Twilight = inbetween+ balance. Life = ...life. Ocean = Ocean. There is no argument that Ocean = anything else because you have called it Ocean. Going back to the concept of Water + better heal, You even said yourself that you didn't think of anything that could be good for a capstone for the subclass, showing just how ill-defined the premise you've put forward to us is even within your own mind.
I have no problem with the general idea that you have put forward. However, I find that it needs to be defined beyond what you have presented to warrant further discussion of if it would be a good idea or not to include something similar within the game. Adding something 'just because' doesn't vibe with me.
Personally, I think something like what you described would make a lot more sense as a ranger subclass. A big heal and/or battlefield control ranger specialization doesn't really exist within the current iteration of the game.
TL:DR - What you have described is way too loose a concept and exists within the game already in several forms and under several different names. Just because you want something doesn't mean it should exist.
Buyers Guide for D&D Beyond - Hardcover Books, D&D Beyond and You - How/What is Toggled Content?
Everything you need to know about Homebrew - Homebrew FAQ - Digital Book on D&D Beyond Vs Physical Books
Can't find the content you are supposed to have access to? Read this FAQ.
"Play the game however you want to play the game. After all, your fun doesn't threaten my fun."
I am trying to have a kind discourse with you by presenting what I feel is a problem with what you put forward. Nowhere did I say I disliked it because there are too many cleric subclass. All I said was the idea you presented was, as others pointed out, overlapping with what around half of the other cleric's themes are. This is not in and of itself an issue, I mean about half of the other clerics also fall into the same theme, I just think it would be better if it was defined beyond what you presented which is Ocean & Heal+. I would love to discuss what those themes could be, and I have put forward several that I think are worth discussing.
Buyers Guide for D&D Beyond - Hardcover Books, D&D Beyond and You - How/What is Toggled Content?
Everything you need to know about Homebrew - Homebrew FAQ - Digital Book on D&D Beyond Vs Physical Books
Can't find the content you are supposed to have access to? Read this FAQ.
"Play the game however you want to play the game. After all, your fun doesn't threaten my fun."
Clerics are rife with abjuration and healing options already. Adding a handful more spells to that existing selection doesn't really create a new theme for them. "Overlap" is a bit pithy as a comment, but doesn't refer to spell choices specifically: healing and cleansing are core themes for the class - in that sense the Life cleric itself is already a bit superfluous.
The opening post asks why WotC is "afraid" to add certain types of clerics. Tone of questioning aside, the bottom line is that a lot of the suggested flavours already exist in the game. Maybe not enough for some, but that's not a rebuttal of the argument. WotC have elected to add 14 cleric domains already. Healing and cleansing being intrinsic to the core class already is likely a significant part of the reason not to use it as a main theme for one of those 14.
Want to start playing but don't have anyone to play with? You can try these options: [link].
Sorry i wasn't referring to you in the post you quoted but referring to discourse from pangurjan which is what my statement of fearful is from, not what you two had said. I just said I didnt feel like you two read what I said beyond the restoration part.
As for the other comments some of what you say is subjective, that it would be better served as a ranger. Sure.. I can see that in some situations, rangers don't really do a lot of spells or control or.. really much beyond some marks and tracking and stuff so I personally dont see it but theres a case to be made sure.
Saying spells don't reall warrant a subclass, kinda literally the whole shtick behind the attraction of the Light Cleric and the Wildfire Druid (least the UA till they removed fireball and firebolt) and divine sorcerer. It shouldn't be the only thing the subclass has going for it but borrowing spells has a draw.
For the capstone.. I mean yeah, I literally came up with ideas in a few minutes this wasn't suppose to be "HERE IS THE WATER CLERIC" it was examples of ideas that go beyond simply waterbreathing, swimspeeds and having to be in the Ocean for it to function. I even said this wasn't some homebrew but a spit-balling of ideas that could be enacted to see or guide a class into being. That's exactly why it's not super focused either these where just ideas for Sporta to show him that no it doesn't need to be on the ocean for it to be useful elsewhere.
Though I will say I did forget about the Tasha's optional when I made the spell recovery suggestion, probably where the idea came from
Calling it Tidal or Aquatic or Water instead of Ocean is fine, Lunar.. not really the concept in mind I always associate Lunar more with werewolves 'n such because of Selune, but the idea is suppose to be the seas/water/whatever not really the moon
Also adding things just because is.. literally exactly why the majority of these subclasses exist.. So I don't exactly see that hang up myself