Lets say a paladin is in a town and the town has slavery or a racist law or something like that they know is evil. If they follow the law or let it continue that's evil but if they fight it that's chaotic. What would a paladin's code of honor tell them to do?
This is so horribaly unspecific it pains me.What oath?The only oath the requires you to follow the law is crown,which is one you probally never even heard of.
Lets say a paladin is in a town and the town has slavery or a racist law or something like that they know is evil. If they follow the law or let it continue that's evil but if they fight it that's chaotic. What would a paladin's code of honor tell them to do?
Paladins don't have to be Lawful Good anymore, and oaths are subclass-specific, so a low-level paladin hasn't even got an oath to follow yet.
So putting paladins aside, if you're asking what a lawful good person does here: fighting the law is not intrinsically chaotic. Law vs Chaos is about having a personal code of conduct. That code can mandate fighting oppressors, even if the oppression is "legal" for the usual dubious definition of "legal" in any monarchy. Letting the law continue is also not intrinsically evil; being good does not require you to e.g. die in vain opposing evil. Neither good nor evil implies stupidity. There may be excellent, compelling, good reasons to let the law stand, at least for now.
So the answer is, it depends on context, including the specific individual involved, the specific law, etc.
Lets say a paladin is in a town and the town has slavery or a racist law or something like that they know is evil. If they follow the law or let it continue that's evil but if they fight it that's chaotic. What would a paladin's code of honor tell them to do?
There is not an exact "code of honor" written for ALL paladins. Getting to specifics for a paladin requires effort on both GM and player...
A) Which "Oath" class feature Archetype has been selected for that character? See the specific rulebook related to that Archetype (assuming Devotion) B) Is the character's Background choice relevant to their status as a Paladin? - If it is Alcolyte the character is part of a formal religious order. There is probably a hierarchy; consult whatever campaign guide you are using or ask the GM for details if world is home-brew. - If the character has a Soldier background, could be current or past member of a military organization. A code of conduct might be enforced. C) What are the specifics of the character's god? - In the Forgotten Realms 5E setting Lawful Good deities are Ilmater (endurance), Torm (courage), and Tyr (justice). Despite similiar alignments, these gods and their followers have very different priorities as far as what their followers should be doing to "make the world a better place." Again, consult with campaign book or GM.
Adding my own specifics to OP's example, if a Lawful Good Paladin with the Oath of Devotion saw slaves and player and GM agreed the Paladin obligated to assist them...
- Ilmater (ENDURANCE) would probably obligated to aid those in need, which slaves are. But does that mean freeing them, or merely ease suffering? - Torm (COURAGE) Do the "right" thing. If the character is obligated to help slaves, take time to make a plan to help them all if possible. - Tyr (JUSTICE) I'm pretty sure source materials mention priests and paladins of Tyr are suppose to challenge UNJUST laws. Good is greater than Law is part of the follower's mentality. Allowing local authorities to "fix it" would be the first step, if the authorities refuse or ignore the issue, then the paladin can take matters into their hands (representing Tyr of course).
Remember, not all Paladins are part of a formal order or religion. Some deities choose individuals that simply "do the right thing" as far as that particular deity is concerned. So a paladin might just be: - a slave that decided to throw off an oppressive society, or - a peasant girl from the country side fighting off an invasion of her homeland as - the typical knight in shining armor trained by master warriors as part of a religious order
Lets say a paladin is in a town and the town has slavery or a racist law or something like that they know is evil. If they follow the law or let it continue that's evil but if they fight it that's chaotic. What would a paladin's code of honor tell them to do?
Depends what their code says. If you're wondering about Lawful behavior, the answer would be It Depends. Typically when you enter the territory of a government, you'll be required to swear an oath (or something similar) to obey the laws of the land (or city in this case), and if you don't, you won't be permitted entry. A lawful character who agrees to those terms would be expected to keep their agreement. However, it's also possible to solve the conflict by not entering the city, or to declare yourself an enemy and force your way in, and doing so is not necessarily un-lawful (for example, an invading army can be perfectly lawfully attempting to conquer the city and overthrow its government and obviously is not concerned with the city's laws in that case).
Also even someone who say, would be inclined to follow laws they don't necessarily agree with, could also find extreme cases that would push them beyond their threshold to tolerate such. Someone that might say turn a blind eye to harsh taxes but stand up to prevent a child being sold off to pay a debt legally or something.
Also even someone who say, would be inclined to follow laws they don't necessarily agree with, could also find extreme cases that would push them beyond their threshold to tolerate such. Someone that might say turn a blind eye to harsh taxes but stand up to prevent a child being sold off to pay a debt legally or something.
In order to avoid the conflict of Good vs Lawful in that particular instance, the paladin could buy/payoff the child's debts, satisfying both Lawful and Good alignments.
It would remain as to whether or not the practice was Good or Lawful, which depends on the society in power and the deity the Paladin follows. Paladins of many of the "evil" gods, including orcish, druegar, or drow pantheons would not blnk an eye at such practices.
Assuming the Paladin were under your control, and assuming the paladin was built to be Lawful Good, then I see it this way ...
To simply go crazy because a law isn't built on a foundation of Good, is a violation of Lawful. To simply ignore the slavery situation is an abandonment of good. But the paladin isn't required to solve the slavery issue this instant. They should, within the time available to them, work to help the slaves out of their slavery within the law. They can campaign for support to have the laws changed. They can purchase the slaves and grant them freedom. They can attempt to get others to follow his example. They can appeal to higher powers to have the laws changed.
But, I hope you are not attempting to force another player to play this paladin character the way you wish.
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Cum catapultae proscriptae erunt tum soli proscript catapultas habebunt
Generally, they won’t follow the law. Lawful means that you follow a code, not that you follow the law wherever you go. That said, the ideal paladin will probably be honest and up front about the fact that they’re not following it. Say, in a town of slavers, they’d be more likely to try to confront the slavers directly rather than secretly help slaves escape. And of course, it depends on the paladin: a Conquest paladin, for example, is certainly not Good!
One example is Ned Stark, a very honorable and good character in Game of Thrones. When his king orders a young exile’s execution, he speaks out against it, and even resigns his post as the king’s advisor despite threats. Ned refuses to participate in something against his Good nature, but he also doesn’t resort to underhanded means to stop the king. He remains Lawful in his opposition.
Lets say a paladin is in a town and the town has slavery or a racist law or something like that they know is evil. If they follow the law or let it continue that's evil but if they fight it that's chaotic. What would a paladin's code of honor tell them to do?
This is so horribaly unspecific it pains me.What oath?The only oath the requires you to follow the law is crown,which is one you probally never even heard of.
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Paladins don't have to be Lawful Good anymore, and oaths are subclass-specific, so a low-level paladin hasn't even got an oath to follow yet.
So putting paladins aside, if you're asking what a lawful good person does here: fighting the law is not intrinsically chaotic. Law vs Chaos is about having a personal code of conduct. That code can mandate fighting oppressors, even if the oppression is "legal" for the usual dubious definition of "legal" in any monarchy. Letting the law continue is also not intrinsically evil; being good does not require you to e.g. die in vain opposing evil. Neither good nor evil implies stupidity. There may be excellent, compelling, good reasons to let the law stand, at least for now.
So the answer is, it depends on context, including the specific individual involved, the specific law, etc.
There is not an exact "code of honor" written for ALL paladins. Getting to specifics for a paladin requires effort on both GM and player...
A) Which "Oath" class feature Archetype has been selected for that character? See the specific rulebook related to that Archetype (assuming Devotion)
B) Is the character's Background choice relevant to their status as a Paladin?
- If it is Alcolyte the character is part of a formal religious order. There is probably a hierarchy; consult whatever campaign guide you are using or ask the GM for details if world is home-brew.
- If the character has a Soldier background, could be current or past member of a military organization. A code of conduct might be enforced.
C) What are the specifics of the character's god?
- In the Forgotten Realms 5E setting Lawful Good deities are Ilmater (endurance), Torm (courage), and Tyr (justice). Despite similiar alignments, these gods and their followers have very different priorities as far as what their followers should be doing to "make the world a better place." Again, consult with campaign book or GM.
Adding my own specifics to OP's example, if a Lawful Good Paladin with the Oath of Devotion saw slaves and player and GM agreed the Paladin obligated to assist them...
- Ilmater (ENDURANCE) would probably obligated to aid those in need, which slaves are. But does that mean freeing them, or merely ease suffering?
- Torm (COURAGE) Do the "right" thing. If the character is obligated to help slaves, take time to make a plan to help them all if possible.
- Tyr (JUSTICE) I'm pretty sure source materials mention priests and paladins of Tyr are suppose to challenge UNJUST laws. Good is greater than Law is part of the follower's mentality. Allowing local authorities to "fix it" would be the first step, if the authorities refuse or ignore the issue, then the paladin can take matters into their hands (representing Tyr of course).
Remember, not all Paladins are part of a formal order or religion. Some deities choose individuals that simply "do the right thing" as far as that particular deity is concerned. So a paladin might just be:
- a slave that decided to throw off an oppressive society, or
- a peasant girl from the country side fighting off an invasion of her homeland as
- the typical knight in shining armor trained by master warriors as part of a religious order
Depends what their code says. If you're wondering about Lawful behavior, the answer would be It Depends. Typically when you enter the territory of a government, you'll be required to swear an oath (or something similar) to obey the laws of the land (or city in this case), and if you don't, you won't be permitted entry. A lawful character who agrees to those terms would be expected to keep their agreement. However, it's also possible to solve the conflict by not entering the city, or to declare yourself an enemy and force your way in, and doing so is not necessarily un-lawful (for example, an invading army can be perfectly lawfully attempting to conquer the city and overthrow its government and obviously is not concerned with the city's laws in that case).
Also even someone who say, would be inclined to follow laws they don't necessarily agree with, could also find extreme cases that would push them beyond their threshold to tolerate such. Someone that might say turn a blind eye to harsh taxes but stand up to prevent a child being sold off to pay a debt legally or something.
In order to avoid the conflict of Good vs Lawful in that particular instance, the paladin could buy/payoff the child's debts, satisfying both Lawful and Good alignments.
It would remain as to whether or not the practice was Good or Lawful, which depends on the society in power and the deity the Paladin follows. Paladins of many of the "evil" gods, including orcish, druegar, or drow pantheons would not blnk an eye at such practices.
Assuming the Paladin were under your control, and assuming the paladin was built to be Lawful Good, then I see it this way ...
To simply go crazy because a law isn't built on a foundation of Good, is a violation of Lawful. To simply ignore the slavery situation is an abandonment of good. But the paladin isn't required to solve the slavery issue this instant. They should, within the time available to them, work to help the slaves out of their slavery within the law. They can campaign for support to have the laws changed. They can purchase the slaves and grant them freedom. They can attempt to get others to follow his example. They can appeal to higher powers to have the laws changed.
But, I hope you are not attempting to force another player to play this paladin character the way you wish.
Cum catapultae proscriptae erunt tum soli proscript catapultas habebunt
Generally, they won’t follow the law. Lawful means that you follow a code, not that you follow the law wherever you go. That said, the ideal paladin will probably be honest and up front about the fact that they’re not following it. Say, in a town of slavers, they’d be more likely to try to confront the slavers directly rather than secretly help slaves escape. And of course, it depends on the paladin: a Conquest paladin, for example, is certainly not Good!
One example is Ned Stark, a very honorable and good character in Game of Thrones. When his king orders a young exile’s execution, he speaks out against it, and even resigns his post as the king’s advisor despite threats. Ned refuses to participate in something against his Good nature, but he also doesn’t resort to underhanded means to stop the king. He remains Lawful in his opposition.
In short, it’s Lawful Good, not Legal Good.
Wizard (Gandalf) of the Tolkien Club