Well, I was thinking "Hell. Dragons in Neverwinter sounds boring. Give me undercover devil politics!"
However, with a dragon demigod, the City of Neverwinter (which is rich in lore, especially shadow lore), and Plant Blights? I'd be interested in that, sure.
And then we learn the next adventure is a BG:DiA or WBtW kind of deal. Haha.
Elementals are featured pretty heavily in the Elemental Evil set of adventures (I assume). Aberrations have yet to make a full spotlight appearance but they feature pretty heavily in Mad Mage.
The thing is, some types of monsters don't exist at every challenge rating. Devils have tons of variation, but aberrations are largely mid- to high-level enemies. Humanoids are all low-level. This isn't a hard limitation but it definitely affects the designs of adventures.
There's also undead (Curse of Strahd) and constructs. Also, don't forget about celestials! I would be interested in a celestial-fighting adventure. I'm sure there's a way to make that work where it doesn't reawaken the Satanic Panic.
Nothing's going to bring back the Satanic Panic. D&D didn't cause it in the first place, it was due to some lurid and entirely made up allegations of a secret Satanic cult that was kidnapping and sexually abusing children. D&D got targeted in the panic because most people didn't know anything about it at the time.
These days, D&D's too mainstream for that sort of accusation to get traction.
Not constructs, but maybe going back to the prior editions Modrons adventures or throwing the aberrations into some sort of planar blender. I really don't see a crusade against celestials in the cards, unless the "non violent" options in Wild Beyond the Witchlight prove exceedingly popular and the PCs are tasked to aid some dispute among the "good guys," with maybe a rouge Empyrean behind the scenes stoking the tensions.
Celestials aren't forced to be non-evil: there are evil Celestials, even entire types of Celestials that are evil and corrupt, like the Radiant Idol.
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Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
For the purpose of the Satanic Panic, that's gone 5G now.
For the purpose of Evil Celestials, check up on Zariel for me, please? Also, I might note there can be conflicts without evil (just differing opinions)
Evil celestials are, to me, way less interesting as antagonists than good ones. Ordinary people are usually neutral, so I could certainly envision a scenario where the celestials are going way too far, pursuing maybe long-term goals at the expense of short-lived mortals, or allowing people to be caught in the crossfire in their crusade, or using compulsion magic to conscript soldiers or something. Maybe just mistreating or ignoring ordinary folk because those folk aren't devoted enough to the cause. Things that make us neutral people upset, and that I'm sure I'll get pushback saying they're actually evil, but that's coming from a human perspective. For a little context, most of us on real world Earth aren't 100% confident guessing what happens to us when we die. A celestial knows with absolute certainty. You're going wherever you're going. What's evil about sending you there today rather than next year? If it's a good afterlife, the celestial might even be doing you a favor -- you won't have a chance to get yourself damned to a worse one.
Good can be frightening.
Here's a couple of excerpts from Men At Arms, by Terry Pratchett:
"If you have to look along the shaft of an arrow from the wrong end, if a man has you entirely at his mercy [...] They’ll put off the moment of murder like another man will put off a good cigar. So hope like hell your captor is an evil man. A good man will kill you with hardly a word."
"Personal isn’t the same as important. What sort of person could think like that? And it dawned on him that while Ankh in the past had had its share of evil rulers, and simply bad rulers, it had never yet come under the heel of a good ruler. That might be the most terrifying prospect of all."
Yeah, I skimmed the monster listings and saw that ... but you're talking about a fallen celestial there, basically somewhere between Zariel and an old school Oathbreaker Paladin. They're renegades and literal cast outs of the norm. Would play the same role as a rogue Empyrean in the scenario I'm thinking.
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Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
Evil celestials are, to me, way less interesting as antagonists than good ones. Ordinary people are usually neutral, so I could certainly envision a scenario where the celestials are going way too far, pursuing maybe long-term goals at the expense of short-lived mortals, or allowing people to be caught in the crossfire in their crusade, or using compulsion magic to conscript soldiers or something. Maybe just mistreating or ignoring ordinary folk because those folk aren't devoted enough to the cause. Things that make us neutral people upset, and that I'm sure I'll get pushback saying they're actually evil, but that's coming from a human perspective. For a little context, most of us on real world Earth aren't 100% confident guessing what happens to us when we die. A celestial knows with absolute certainty. You're going wherever you're going. What's evil about sending you there today rather than next year? If it's a good afterlife, the celestial might even be doing you a favor -- you won't have a chance to get yourself damned to a worse one.
Good can be frightening.
Here's a couple of excerpts from Men At Arms, by Terry Pratchett:
"If you have to look along the shaft of an arrow from the wrong end, if a man has you entirely at his mercy [...] They’ll put off the moment of murder like another man will put off a good cigar. So hope like hell your captor is an evil man. A good man will kill you with hardly a word."
"Personal isn’t the same as important. What sort of person could think like that? And it dawned on him that while Ankh in the past had had its share of evil rulers, and simply bad rulers, it had never yet come under the heel of a good ruler. That might be the most terrifying prospect of all."
Well yeah they're are plenty of stories of angels being beings of divine vengeance and wrath slaughter all except the reverent whom they pass over, so to speak. I'm thinking of Angela in Spawn as the sort of "Lawful Good" angel with that zealot streak that would make her frightening and hard to relate to from a human perspective. You also have the whole In Nomine game that does a better job of being essentially abstract concepts incarnate ... which is something I think could be really useful with 5e and make extra planar beings clearly demarked in contrast to the (not altogether wrong) effort to anthropormorphise most prime material sentient beings. There's a freedom of will and morality is a complex thing on the prime material plane; but beings on the outer planes in many cases are essences of those moral considerations, and that's a very different form of existence from choosing right and wrong, or just or unjust. But I just don't see 5e cosmology and metaphysics going that way as far as WotC output goes.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
Yeah, I skimmed the monster listings and saw that ... but you're talking about a fallen celestial there, basically somewhere between Zariel and an old school Oathbreaker Paladin. They're renegades and literal cast outs of the norm. Would play the same role as a rogue Empyrean in the scenario I'm thinking.
Eh, they're a creature of the Celestial type that's set up as antagonistic by default. IIRC there were a few other evil angels in the Ravnica book. My point was just that if WotC wanted to make a module centered around Celestials as opponents where it wasn't just some sort of misunderstanding and everyone's really on the same side, it's not going to be a serious change from existing lore.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
I think what floats, or rather falls from grace in Ravinica is a little apart from standard D&D lore and are definitely an exceptional niche that actually deceives worshippers into thinking they're what you'd expect from an angel. But regardless Ravinica and even Eberon are varying degrees of segregated from the lore presented in "core rules" MM and it's POV treatments Volo's and Mord's. So I wouldn't picture a 5e adventure drawing from MtG hardbacks or Eberon for it's Celestial mechanics, so to speak. If WotC gave "side worlds' which are admittedly more morally complex, even in MtG terms, I'd put more stock in the notion of a viable party vs. mainline Celestials core adventure book. There are just so many other more likely candidates.
But if we're dreaming, I'd want to see Rrakkma expanded into a hardback, whether the players are actually Gith or more regular PC bystanders to a flare up in the conflict, maybe open up some extraplanar planar races beyond the Gs. I don't see it happening because the core civilizations would be harder than Hell, or the Feywild to capture in a way that would motivate a broad swath of tables to pick up.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
Well, I was thinking "Hell. Dragons in Neverwinter sounds boring. Give me undercover devil politics!"
However, with a dragon demigod, the City of Neverwinter (which is rich in lore, especially shadow lore), and Plant Blights? I'd be interested in that, sure.
And then we learn the next adventure is a BG:DiA or WBtW kind of deal. Haha.
Frequent Eladrin || They/Them, but accept all pronouns
Luz Noceda would like to remind you that you're worth loving!
Nothing's going to bring back the Satanic Panic. D&D didn't cause it in the first place, it was due to some lurid and entirely made up allegations of a secret Satanic cult that was kidnapping and sexually abusing children. D&D got targeted in the panic because most people didn't know anything about it at the time.
These days, D&D's too mainstream for that sort of accusation to get traction.
Celestials aren't forced to be non-evil: there are evil Celestials, even entire types of Celestials that are evil and corrupt, like the Radiant Idol.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
For the purpose of the Satanic Panic, that's gone 5G now.
For the purpose of Evil Celestials, check up on Zariel for me, please? Also, I might note there can be conflicts without evil (just differing opinions)
Frequent Eladrin || They/Them, but accept all pronouns
Luz Noceda would like to remind you that you're worth loving!
Evil celestials are, to me, way less interesting as antagonists than good ones. Ordinary people are usually neutral, so I could certainly envision a scenario where the celestials are going way too far, pursuing maybe long-term goals at the expense of short-lived mortals, or allowing people to be caught in the crossfire in their crusade, or using compulsion magic to conscript soldiers or something. Maybe just mistreating or ignoring ordinary folk because those folk aren't devoted enough to the cause. Things that make us neutral people upset, and that I'm sure I'll get pushback saying they're actually evil, but that's coming from a human perspective. For a little context, most of us on real world Earth aren't 100% confident guessing what happens to us when we die. A celestial knows with absolute certainty. You're going wherever you're going. What's evil about sending you there today rather than next year? If it's a good afterlife, the celestial might even be doing you a favor -- you won't have a chance to get yourself damned to a worse one.
Good can be frightening.
Here's a couple of excerpts from Men At Arms, by Terry Pratchett:
"If you have to look along the shaft of an arrow from the wrong end, if a man has you entirely at his mercy [...] They’ll put off the moment of murder like another man will put off a good cigar. So hope like hell your captor is an evil man. A good man will kill you with hardly a word."
"Personal isn’t the same as important. What sort of person could think like that? And it dawned on him that while Ankh in the past had had its share of evil rulers, and simply bad rulers, it had never yet come under the heel of a good ruler. That might be the most terrifying prospect of all."
Yeah, I skimmed the monster listings and saw that ... but you're talking about a fallen celestial there, basically somewhere between Zariel and an old school Oathbreaker Paladin. They're renegades and literal cast outs of the norm. Would play the same role as a rogue Empyrean in the scenario I'm thinking.
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
Well yeah they're are plenty of stories of angels being beings of divine vengeance and wrath slaughter all except the reverent whom they pass over, so to speak. I'm thinking of Angela in Spawn as the sort of "Lawful Good" angel with that zealot streak that would make her frightening and hard to relate to from a human perspective. You also have the whole In Nomine game that does a better job of being essentially abstract concepts incarnate ... which is something I think could be really useful with 5e and make extra planar beings clearly demarked in contrast to the (not altogether wrong) effort to anthropormorphise most prime material sentient beings. There's a freedom of will and morality is a complex thing on the prime material plane; but beings on the outer planes in many cases are essences of those moral considerations, and that's a very different form of existence from choosing right and wrong, or just or unjust. But I just don't see 5e cosmology and metaphysics going that way as far as WotC output goes.
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
Eh, they're a creature of the Celestial type that's set up as antagonistic by default. IIRC there were a few other evil angels in the Ravnica book. My point was just that if WotC wanted to make a module centered around Celestials as opponents where it wasn't just some sort of misunderstanding and everyone's really on the same side, it's not going to be a serious change from existing lore.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
I think what floats, or rather falls from grace in Ravinica is a little apart from standard D&D lore and are definitely an exceptional niche that actually deceives worshippers into thinking they're what you'd expect from an angel. But regardless Ravinica and even Eberon are varying degrees of segregated from the lore presented in "core rules" MM and it's POV treatments Volo's and Mord's. So I wouldn't picture a 5e adventure drawing from MtG hardbacks or Eberon for it's Celestial mechanics, so to speak. If WotC gave "side worlds' which are admittedly more morally complex, even in MtG terms, I'd put more stock in the notion of a viable party vs. mainline Celestials core adventure book. There are just so many other more likely candidates.
But if we're dreaming, I'd want to see Rrakkma expanded into a hardback, whether the players are actually Gith or more regular PC bystanders to a flare up in the conflict, maybe open up some extraplanar planar races beyond the Gs. I don't see it happening because the core civilizations would be harder than Hell, or the Feywild to capture in a way that would motivate a broad swath of tables to pick up.
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
We do? Where’d you see that?
EDIT: It could still be Ashardalon.
I'm the Valar (leader and creator) of The Lord of the Rings/The Hobbit/Anything Tolkien Cult!
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I'm just joking. No-one expected WBtW this time last year, so that's my reasoning.
Frequent Eladrin || They/Them, but accept all pronouns
Luz Noceda would like to remind you that you're worth loving!
This is such a cool discussion.
Isn’t it? :)
I'm the Valar (leader and creator) of The Lord of the Rings/The Hobbit/Anything Tolkien Cult!
Member of the Cult of Cats, High Elf of the Elven Guild, and Sauce Priest & Sauce Smith of the Supreme Court of Sauce.
If you want some casual roleplay/adventures in Middle Earth, check out The Wild's Edge Tavern, a LotR/Middle Earth tavern!
JOIN TIAMAT'S CONGA LINE!
Extended Sig
Is it? I rather thought it was an argument about Dragons vs. Evil Celestials.
By the way, Ashardalon loses to Serra every time.
Frequent Eladrin || They/Them, but accept all pronouns
Luz Noceda would like to remind you that you're worth loving!
Depends on how you look at it. And Ashardalon is the best.
I'm the Valar (leader and creator) of The Lord of the Rings/The Hobbit/Anything Tolkien Cult!
Member of the Cult of Cats, High Elf of the Elven Guild, and Sauce Priest & Sauce Smith of the Supreme Court of Sauce.
If you want some casual roleplay/adventures in Middle Earth, check out The Wild's Edge Tavern, a LotR/Middle Earth tavern!
JOIN TIAMAT'S CONGA LINE!
Extended Sig