They are arrogant to a fault. So much that it borders on being stupid. Think Vegeta from Dragon Ball Z.
Vegeta is immensely powerful but was enslaved and pressed into service by Frieza for much of his adult life and I do not remember him being portrayed as any more intelligent than Goku, which is to say, much less intelligent than Dragons are according to their stat blocks.
In my long years playing roleplaying games I've noticed this happens sometimes, where it can be hard to separate your personal concept of a "good idea" from the what another creature would view as a "good idea" if they have an entirely different value system from you. You're not alone in this difficulty.
I find it helps to remind yourself what they care about, and then ask if what they're doing achieves that goal or not. So, for example, ask yourself: "If a giant powerful magical lizard cares about proving to anything and everything in existence, including himself, that he is the biggest baddest more awe inspiring creature in existence and especially on the battlefield... will he run away? Will he stay back out of reach of the tiny hairless monkeys out of caution for his safety?"
His goal isn't what your goal would be in the same situation, so you gotta align his actions into accordance to his goals, not your goals. His 18 Int is over there puzzling out genius level moves... but genius level moves to prove how powerful and awesome he is in battle. If there is a way to prove it, he's figured it out and is executing that plan. Not the plan to keep himself safe.
TLDR: Don't confuse personality with intelligence.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
“…kin demonstrated any signs of fragility, either by getting badly wounded”
Like I said - if you think arrogance and intellect means they’d go toe to toe with every single adventurer out there, then all the power to you, but that doesn’t strike me as “smart” or even “evil”. It sounds more like just “regular stupid”.
Since when did arrogant get boiled down to “Here’s what he would do against 4 smiting Paladins!” anyways?
Do you know how arrogant I can look literally burning Paladins to a crisp 15ft in the air, laughing at their utter uselessness as they toss javelins at you? Or how smug I’d be grappling a Paladin and dragging them to the bottom of a lava pool and just watching him die in seconds?
There has never been a description of Red Dragons saying “they prefer to go toe to toe on the ground because they’re so vengeful and arrogant that they can’t fathom anything above villager-level power”. It’s more likely they’ve a) had adventurers try to steal their treasure before, of varying levels of power, b) run entire cults and armies of bad guys and has a full understanding of how powerful things are based on how many minions the goodies have killed, c) don’t go into a mindless, berserker-level rage just because some Paladins walked up to their cave.
You know the most arrogant Pro Sports Basketball players? They don’t go to High School games in an effort to prove how good they are. Well, maybe the dumb ones do, but Ancient Red Dragons ain’t dumb.
“…kin demonstrated any signs of fragility, either by getting badly wounded”
Like I said - if you think arrogance and intellect means they’d go toe to toe with every single adventurer out there, then all the power to you, but that doesn’t strike me as “smart” or even “evil”. It sounds more like just “regular stupid”.
You keep confusing goals and personality with intelligence. What someone wants vs how they attempt to achieve it. Smart people come up with good and well calculated plans to achieve their goals. Dumb people had bad plans that are misaligned to their goals. A goal itself is neither dumb nor smart. It is intellect-neutral.
If you keep confusing how closely a creature's goals match what your goals would be as 'smart' you'll keep getting this wrong.
Having a high Int has nothing, at all, in any way, to do with how much a dragon might want to or not want to fight people. Having a high Int doesn't make people cowards. It doesn't make them bloodthirsty either. It has nothing to do with their goals or desires in any way.
Since when did arrogant get boiled down to “Here’s what he would do against 4 smiting Paladins!” anyways?
Do you know how arrogant I can look literally burning Paladins to a crisp 15ft in the air, laughing at their utter uselessness as they toss javelins at you? Or how smug I’d be grappling a Paladin and dragging them to the bottom of a lava pool and just watching him die in seconds?
That is fighting them, which is exactly what we've been talking about they would do in this situation.
There has never been a description of Red Dragons saying “they prefer to go toe to toe on the ground because they’re so vengeful and arrogant that they can’t fathom anything above villager-level power”. It’s more likely they’ve a) had adventurers try to steal their treasure before, of varying levels of power, b) run entire cults and armies of bad guys and has a full understanding of how powerful things are based on how many minions the goodies have killed, c) don’t go into a mindless, berserker-level rage just because some Paladins walked up to their cave.
... what are you even talking about? I mean, what is the cohesive idea this paragraph is trying to convey? Do... do you think people here have ever suggested that dragons are incapable of fighting with anything other than zombie tactics or something? No one has suggested that bro. Who are you arguing with here?
Let's look what the book tells us about their personality maybe?
"Arrogant Tyrants. Red dragons fly into destructive rages and act on impulse when angered. They are so ferocious and vengeful that they are regarded as the archetypical evil dragon by many cultures."
Sure, he sounds like he'd be a great tactician... lol.
You know the most arrogant Pro Sports Basketball players? They don’t go to High School games in an effort to prove how good they are. Well, maybe the dumb ones do, but Ancient Red Dragons ain’t dumb.
... and so the dragons don't play basketball at local highschools? This is getting hard to follow. What are you even talking about anymore.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
Fighting on your own terms, rather than your opponent's terms is in no way cowardly. It's not running from the fight; it's using its advantages.
If a man calls you out and challenges you to a fight, publicly, with people watching, and you do not fight them... yeah, that indeed makes you a coward. You have dishonored yourself, your family, etc etc. people used to die over this sort of thing all the time. There were duels to the death in the streets. When bravery and honor and etc were the highest ideals of society, this sort of thing becomes more common. We just don't...society doesn't care about this sort of thing anymore. Collectively our values have changed. No one really cares if you have the level of cowardice that causes you to not fight to the death in the streets over honor. So what. But, if you did place these values highest, then...well, maybe you would.
The fact you guys don't think people could manipulated others by applying the correct leverage against their goals, personality, and ideals is mind blowing. Of all the creatures in existence a red dragon would be one of the easiest to goad into a bad situation for it, they have all the traits of the most unstable and easiest to manipulate narcissist imaginable.
Impulsive when angry. Vengeful and destructive. Fly off into bouts of rage. The are covetous, conceited, and vain... and have deep disdain and loathing for other creatures. That is everything you need to know about the creature to trigger it into acting erratically and irrationally.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
Red dragons are less "arrogant pro sports player" and more "the arrogant kung fu guy who goes around killing other kung fu masters to prove how great he is." Being able to inflict death and destruction whenever, wherever, and to whoever they chose is how they demonstrate their superiority.
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Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
Fighting on your own terms, rather than your opponent's terms is in no way cowardly. It's not running from the fight; it's using its advantages.
If a man calls you out and challenges you to a fight, publicly, with people watching, and you do not fight them... yeah, that indeed makes you a coward. You have dishonored yourself, your family, etc etc. people used to die over this sort of thing all the time. There were duels to the death in the streets. When bravery and honor and etc were the highest ideals of society, this sort of thing becomes more common. We just don't...society doesn't care about this sort of thing anymore. Collectively our values have changed. No one really cares if you have the level of cowardice that causes you to not fight to the death in the streets over honor. So what. But, if you did place these values highest, then...well, maybe you would.
The fact you guys don't think people could manipulated others by applying the correct leverage against their goals, personality, and ideals is mind blowing. Of all the creatures in existence a red dragon would be one of the easiest to goad into a bad situation for it, they have all the traits of the most unstable and easiest to manipulate narcissist imaginable.
Impulsive when angry. Vengeful and destructive. Vain. Fly off into bouts of rage. The are covetous, conceited, and vain... and have deep disdain and loathing for other creatures. That is everything you need to know about the creature to trigger it into acting erratically and irrationally.
The dragon is fighting. It is literally attacking its enemies and being attacked by them. What definition of fighting are you using?
No one, until now, had even suggested anything about trying to play on their personality to manipulate them. That’s an entirely different tactic than, I walk up to it and start smiting, which was the OP’s problem. And if someone did want to try goading them into doing something foolish, they (ancients, which is what I understand is to be talking about) have a +9 to their wisdom save. Seems like they’re pretty good at resisting bad choices.
I don’t understand how you can get hung up on three words from the page-long description, and decide none of their other powers matter.
While a wyrmling red or other dragon might well be easily manipulated and fairly stupidly vain, vengeful, and rash no dragon that has lived through 800+ years is going to be rash and stupid and easily manipulated. First of all by the time they are adults (@100 years) they have started to develop some sort of intelligence network to learn about who and what might be a problem for them in the future. So any high level group with legendary weapons is going to be well known to them and their relative danger evaluated. Further that network will have spotted at least some of any manipulation attempts. Part of being not stupid and fairly wise and experienced is learning that the 7 Ps are the way to and that you should know who and what your facing as well as you can then using the most impressive ways to deal with threats. They know from experience that they are not invincible and are willing, able and have previously fled a fight or three they were loosing only to heal, build their strength and tactics and return to defeat the old antagonist. They may rage, but it’s not a hot mindless rage it’s a cold cunning rage using every ability they have to its maximum to create “shock and awe” as well as to leave the foes not just one step behind but 5 and lost in the “fog of battle” . They aren’t going to lead with breath weapons, more likely to surprise you where they have every advantage then use the tail strikes to knock the paladins and barbarians prone, then grab (grapple) 2 of them ( maybe 3) with claws (and bite) dragging them into the air to drop on their team mates then when everyone is flat on the ground and can’t dodge use the breath weapon (welcome to no save or at best save at disadvantage) then use spells or tails laps/ claw grabs etc to keep the team from doing anything useful or seriously harmful to the dragon until the breath recharges then go for another cycle. If your not spending most of your time prone, restrained, grappled or stunned then the DM is not playing the dragon to full power. Here are two ancient dragons to read thru to get a better idea of how to play them and what to expect from them.
Yall know you're arguing against the text of the rulebooks, right? Oh you say that they're not vain? Book says they are. Not impulsive? Well, again, book says they are. You wanna give them entirely different personalities than what the books says they have? Go for it, but you're no longer discussing 5e dragons. Just read the monster manual entry for them. It describes their personalities very clearly. using the exact words to describe them you say that they're not.
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I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
They know from experience that they are not invincible and are willing, able and have previously fled a fight or three they were loosing only to heal, build their strength and tactics and return to defeat the old antagonist.
Red dragons learn the opposite of this lesson. They learn they're the biggest baddest monster in town, that other should fear and worship them, and that they are only rivaled by their own kind, and secretly believe they're superior even among them. They don't live for hundreds of years by being cautious they live for hundreds of years by being the strongest most terrifying creatures imaginable.
They may rage, but it’s not a hot mindless rage it’s a cold cunning rage using every ability they have to its maximum to create “shock and awe” as well as to leave the foes not just one step behind but 5 and lost in the “fog of battle” .
Sure.
They aren’t going to lead with breath weapons, more likely to surprise you where they have every advantage then use the tail strikes to knock the paladins and barbarians prone, then grab (grapple) 2 of them ( maybe 3) with claws (and bite) dragging them into the air to drop on their team mates then when everyone is flat on the ground and can’t dodge use the breath weapon (welcome to no save or at best save at disadvantage) then use spells or tails laps/ claw grabs etc to keep the team from doing anything useful or seriously harmful to the dragon until the breath recharges then go for another cycle.
So you agree completely that they'd use melee attacks in combat. Neat.
If your not spending most of your time prone, restrained, grappled or stunned then the DM is not playing the dragon to full power. Here are two ancient dragons to read thru to get a better idea of how to play them and what to expect from them.
The DM isn't playing a dragon to full power if you decided you wanted to kill one and survived the trek to get to it before being dispatched by one or more of its servants. But, once there, the dragon itself has only so many options. Especially the reds, to whom fleeing isn't an option. they're never emotionally or spiritually or socially recover from... running like a coward, from... humans. It would itself be a death sentence as every other red dragon in existence would view it as the biggest neon flashing sign broadcasting for all to see just how weak and vulnerable the dragon was. It'd be blood in the water. That isn't an option.
Edit: PS one of those is blue and the other doesn't really talk about their combat strat so those links don't help much.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
This was the most wrong statement that you wrote Rav. Cowardice has never been an indication of using tactics to destroy your enemies. Are archers cowardly for using a bow because it’s the most efficient? No.
And also, “aggressive” when they’re “angered” does not mean “foolhardy”. And it also has no indication about what “angers” a dragon.
Those are you ideas projected onto red dragons Rav, you will notice no one else thinks they act that way. Are they vain and arrogant yes, to the point o stupidity no! Do they normally rage out of control (there own and others) not only no but h*** no.they are vengeful but cunning they think on time scales humans can’t comprehende. They are not children you can dare or bully into an unfair fight or manipulate to your advantage easily. If they were they would be dead already. Almost any trick you can think of they have had pulled on them many times before and see a mile a way and are prepared to deal with it without problems. They are not about to accept your rules on what fair is they have their own and those are all designed to minimize your strengths and maximize theirs. Smart, cunning, viscious, extremely confident but not overconfident they have been there before and done that before, they have the scars but they are still here and their foes are not and that’s the way they wanted it. Yes they are.the meanest S*B in the valley - but that doesn’t mean they don’t recognize that enough of the others could be even meaner and take precautions to keep the others split up. They don’t need 10d12 claws , they have 100D100 years experience in how to best use the claws they have. Against anything but the tough test best prepared L20 plus party they are a TPK waiting to happen.
edit. Yes one was a blue the OP was asking about all dragons not.just reds. There is more on Klauth but you should have the resources to go look him up in the books and earlier editions materials - they said it was an unfinished page. If you want you can look up other red dragons at the wiki that may have more info like: https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Tchazzar
If your dragon is spending more than one round at a time in melee combat, then you're not playing that dragon correctly. You're the one nerfing it. Dragons fight in three dimensions, they have Legendary Actions, they have lair actions, they have breath weapons, they have flight, they have magic, and many of them have (perhaps a small army of) minions.
The only reason a dragon should be in melee combat is if it knows, and I mean it KNOWS, that its prey is helpless and it's just playing with its food.
Also, don't just look at the damage dice. Look at the hit bonus. An ancient red does 2d6+10 with claws and 2d10+10 with a bite. But they have a PLUS SEVENTEEN to hit. So even if you're wearing Plate+3, a Shield+3, and a Cloak of Protection, the dragon STILL has a 50% chance to hit with each attack! With a full melee round it'll average 48 HP of damage. That's nothing to sneeze at.
The thing about red dragons is that they're not interested in complex planning for complexity's sake: that's a green dragon trait. By the time a red dragon hits adulthood, its experience will have taught it that there's very little capable of matching its physical might and charging straight up the middle to unleash fire, claws, and teeth on anything that opposes it will work about 90% of the time.
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Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
Agreed but when a party of high level paladins and barbarians with legendary weapons comes after them they know about it well in advance and are well prepared recognizing them for being part of the other 10% and will use somewhat different tactics because of that. Again they may be vain but they are not stupid.
To be fair, there was some pretty outright stupid behavior on the part of Red Dragons in the original Dragonlance trilogy reflective of the interpretation of the MM Ravnodaus is asserting. But yes, whatever Monster you're running, if you're not using it to its full feature capacity, you need to let those features guide your imagination. Most dragons, especially an arrogant one isn't going to deign to go mano et draco with an adventurer, it'll send its minions to melee range, and if the fight ain't going well will have no qualms against immolating its minions with the party if it allows maximum breath weapon effect.
As far as the arrogance and avarice, I give my ancient red dragons a "narcissistic rage" legendary action if they are somehow within 10 hp of zero. The dragon doesn't give the party the option of the killing blow, it takes itself out through either a lava flow or a ceiling collapse, taking its hoard with it. Party gets saves to bug out. With the new lair actions suggested in Fizban's the party better see this stunt coming.
On the high iNT. Let's also remember INT is usually used in conjunction with the ability remember facts (think of all the INT skills and how that stat is actually used in game) and maybe "raw arcane mind power" for some class features. A high INT does not equate to any degree of control over emotional volatility. You can have cool dragons if you want, you can also have dragons that are prone to fits of wrath, much in line with what's in the MM.
It's ok to play the same monster differently.
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Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
Also - when you go off to fight a dragon, the dragon is not the only thing you're fighting. Don't forget the regional effects! Miles before you even reach the lair you'll be experiencing regular earthquakes, or quicksand, or labyrinthine hedgerows, or blizzards, or sinkholes. Any water you find will be undrinkable if not downright poisonous. And literally every single thing that moves is a potential spy reporting status updates back to the dragon. You'll have to fight a wave of minions while half of you are stuck in pit traps. You'll face barrages of arrows from enemies hidden in the fog and mists. The party will be separated by ice walls, or sinkholes, or fissures filled with fire elementals! And we all know what happens when you split the party.
And this dragon has spent centuries learning and shaping every nook and cranny of its territory. It could be 30 feet behind you for a mile and you'd never know. It'll hit you with a breath weapon from 90 feet overhead while traveling 80 feet per round doing 26d6 damage. And then it'll do it again ten minutes later. And then again. And maybe, if you're really lucky, you might hit it once or twice. You might even drop it all the way down to 90% health.
And then nothing. Just more storms, more traps, more minions. You'll try to take a short rest to recover, but five minutes in - BOOM! - breath weapon! And a long rest? LOL! Forget it! Won't happen. The dragon will land right in front of you, hit you with Frightful Presence, and then just fly off laughing while everyone except the 20th level cleric with the 20 Wisdom is frightened out of their gourd. So now you're all at half health, you're running on exhaustion, you're burning through spell slots just clearing trash, or managing the environmental effects. And you haven't even reached the lair yet!
If you think dragons are an easy kill, you don't know how to play a dragon.
Also - when you go off to fight a dragon, the dragon is not the only thing you're fighting. Don't forget the regional effects! Miles before you even reach the lair you'll be experiencing regular earthquakes, or quicksand, or labyrinthine hedgerows, or blizzards, or sinkholes. Any water you find will be undrinkable if not downright poisonous. And literally every single thing that moves is a potential spy reporting status updates back to the dragon. You'll have to fight a wave of minions while half of you are stuck in pit traps. You'll face barrages of arrows from enemies hidden in the fog and mists. The party will be separated by ice walls, or sinkholes, or fissures filled with fire elementals! And we all know what happens when you split the party.
And this dragon has spent centuries learning and shaping every nook and cranny of its territory. It could be 30 feet behind you for a mile and you'd never know. It'll hit you with a breath weapon from 90 feet overhead while traveling 80 feet per round doing 26d6 damage. And then it'll do it again ten minutes later. And then again. And maybe, if you're really lucky, you might hit it once or twice. You might even drop it all the way down to 90% health.
And then nothing. Just more storms, more traps, more minions. You'll try to take a short rest to recover, but five minutes in - BOOM! - breath weapon! And a long rest? LOL! Forget it! Won't happen. The dragon will land right in front of you, hit you with Frightful Presence, and then just fly off laughing while everyone except the 20th level cleric with the 20 Wisdom is frightened out of their gourd. So now you're all at half health, you're running on exhaustion, you're burning through spell slots just clearing trash, or managing the environmental effects. And you haven't even reached the lair yet!
If you think dragons are an easy kill, you don't know how to play a dragon.
I like how this Dragon is part Col Kurtz/Part Cobra Commander, combining the final approach in Apocalypse Now with the Weather Dominator.
Let's also be mindful you're describing in mechanical terms Ancients and Great Wyrms. I mean it's cool and all but all dragons are not the apex. I mean if Young and Adult Dragons had all that mojo, a Githyanki raiding party will never be able to get to their mounts because of the Astral inferno they'd have to brave to get to their stables.
Dragons can be a lot of things. Yes, they can be the game ender, they can also be something else's instrument and a little less world shattering.
On the high iNT. Let's also remember INT is usually used in conjunction with the ability remember facts (think of all the INT skills and how that stat is actually used in game) and maybe "raw arcane mind power" for some class features. A high INT does not equate to any degree of control over emotional volatility. You can have cool dragons if you want, you can also have dragons that are prone to fits of wrath, much in line with what's in the MM.
It's ok to play the same monster differently.
I agree with that completely but would like to point out that at higher ages, dragons also tend to have decent to high wisdom, which usually goes cover control over emotional volatility.
That's fair. I might give me some wiggle room on what WIS is too though. Not to go all DSM on D&D but, I mean, I'd say many sociopaths may have impulsivity issues despite their ability to sense vulnerabilities or exploits in people. Kinda like how CHR doesn't necessarily make you a nice person, just an "effective" personality. I don't think any of the mental. stats really regulate any sort of conduct at the end of the day beyond their (if you look at it) fairly narrow mechanical obligations in the rules.
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Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
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In my long years playing roleplaying games I've noticed this happens sometimes, where it can be hard to separate your personal concept of a "good idea" from the what another creature would view as a "good idea" if they have an entirely different value system from you. You're not alone in this difficulty.
I find it helps to remind yourself what they care about, and then ask if what they're doing achieves that goal or not. So, for example, ask yourself: "If a giant powerful magical lizard cares about proving to anything and everything in existence, including himself, that he is the biggest baddest more awe inspiring creature in existence and especially on the battlefield... will he run away? Will he stay back out of reach of the tiny hairless monkeys out of caution for his safety?"
His goal isn't what your goal would be in the same situation, so you gotta align his actions into accordance to his goals, not your goals. His 18 Int is over there puzzling out genius level moves... but genius level moves to prove how powerful and awesome he is in battle. If there is a way to prove it, he's figured it out and is executing that plan. Not the plan to keep himself safe.
TLDR: Don't confuse personality with intelligence.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
“…kin demonstrated any signs of fragility, either by getting badly wounded”
Like I said - if you think arrogance and intellect means they’d go toe to toe with every single adventurer out there, then all the power to you, but that doesn’t strike me as “smart” or even “evil”. It sounds more like just “regular stupid”.
Since when did arrogant get boiled down to “Here’s what he would do against 4 smiting Paladins!” anyways?
Do you know how arrogant I can look literally burning Paladins to a crisp 15ft in the air, laughing at their utter uselessness as they toss javelins at you? Or how smug I’d be grappling a Paladin and dragging them to the bottom of a lava pool and just watching him die in seconds?
There has never been a description of Red Dragons saying “they prefer to go toe to toe on the ground because they’re so vengeful and arrogant that they can’t fathom anything above villager-level power”. It’s more likely they’ve a) had adventurers try to steal their treasure before, of varying levels of power, b) run entire cults and armies of bad guys and has a full understanding of how powerful things are based on how many minions the goodies have killed, c) don’t go into a mindless, berserker-level rage just because some Paladins walked up to their cave.
You know the most arrogant Pro Sports Basketball players? They don’t go to High School games in an effort to prove how good they are. Well, maybe the dumb ones do, but Ancient Red Dragons ain’t dumb.
Fighting on your own terms, rather than your opponent's terms is in no way cowardly. It's not running from the fight; it's using its advantages.
You keep confusing goals and personality with intelligence. What someone wants vs how they attempt to achieve it. Smart people come up with good and well calculated plans to achieve their goals. Dumb people had bad plans that are misaligned to their goals. A goal itself is neither dumb nor smart. It is intellect-neutral.
If you keep confusing how closely a creature's goals match what your goals would be as 'smart' you'll keep getting this wrong.
Having a high Int has nothing, at all, in any way, to do with how much a dragon might want to or not want to fight people. Having a high Int doesn't make people cowards. It doesn't make them bloodthirsty either. It has nothing to do with their goals or desires in any way.
That is fighting them, which is exactly what we've been talking about they would do in this situation.
... what are you even talking about? I mean, what is the cohesive idea this paragraph is trying to convey? Do... do you think people here have ever suggested that dragons are incapable of fighting with anything other than zombie tactics or something? No one has suggested that bro. Who are you arguing with here?
Let's look what the book tells us about their personality maybe?
"Arrogant Tyrants. Red dragons fly into destructive rages and act on impulse when angered. They are so ferocious and vengeful that they are regarded as the archetypical evil dragon by many cultures."
Destructive rages. Impulsive. Ferocious. Vengeful.
Sure, he sounds like he'd be a great tactician... lol.
... and so the dragons don't play basketball at local highschools? This is getting hard to follow. What are you even talking about anymore.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
If a man calls you out and challenges you to a fight, publicly, with people watching, and you do not fight them... yeah, that indeed makes you a coward. You have dishonored yourself, your family, etc etc. people used to die over this sort of thing all the time. There were duels to the death in the streets. When bravery and honor and etc were the highest ideals of society, this sort of thing becomes more common. We just don't...society doesn't care about this sort of thing anymore. Collectively our values have changed. No one really cares if you have the level of cowardice that causes you to not fight to the death in the streets over honor. So what. But, if you did place these values highest, then...well, maybe you would.
The fact you guys don't think people could manipulated others by applying the correct leverage against their goals, personality, and ideals is mind blowing. Of all the creatures in existence a red dragon would be one of the easiest to goad into a bad situation for it, they have all the traits of the most unstable and easiest to manipulate narcissist imaginable.
Impulsive when angry. Vengeful and destructive. Fly off into bouts of rage. The are covetous, conceited, and vain... and have deep disdain and loathing for other creatures. That is everything you need to know about the creature to trigger it into acting erratically and irrationally.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
Red dragons are less "arrogant pro sports player" and more "the arrogant kung fu guy who goes around killing other kung fu masters to prove how great he is." Being able to inflict death and destruction whenever, wherever, and to whoever they chose is how they demonstrate their superiority.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
The dragon is fighting. It is literally attacking its enemies and being attacked by them. What definition of fighting are you using?
No one, until now, had even suggested anything about trying to play on their personality to manipulate them. That’s an entirely different tactic than, I walk up to it and start smiting, which was the OP’s problem. And if someone did want to try goading them into doing something foolish, they (ancients, which is what I understand is to be talking about) have a +9 to their wisdom save. Seems like they’re pretty good at resisting bad choices.
I don’t understand how you can get hung up on three words from the page-long description, and decide none of their other powers matter.
Actually, not quite. I recently explained it all here:
https://www.dndbeyond.com/forums/d-d-beyond-general/general-discussion/126199-two-handed-weapons-question?comment=8
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While a wyrmling red or other dragon might well be easily manipulated and fairly stupidly vain, vengeful, and rash no dragon that has lived through 800+ years is going to be rash and stupid and easily manipulated. First of all by the time they are adults (@100 years) they have started to develop some sort of intelligence network to learn about who and what might be a problem for them in the future. So any high level group with legendary weapons is going to be well known to them and their relative danger evaluated. Further that network will have spotted at least some of any manipulation attempts. Part of being not stupid and fairly wise and experienced is learning that the 7 Ps are the way to and that you should know who and what your facing as well as you can then using the most impressive ways to deal with threats. They know from experience that they are not invincible and are willing, able and have previously fled a fight or three they were loosing only to heal, build their strength and tactics and return to defeat the old antagonist. They may rage, but it’s not a hot mindless rage it’s a cold cunning rage using every ability they have to its maximum to create “shock and awe” as well as to leave the foes not just one step behind but 5 and lost in the “fog of battle” . They aren’t going to lead with breath weapons, more likely to surprise you where they have every advantage then use the tail strikes to knock the paladins and barbarians prone, then grab (grapple) 2 of them ( maybe 3) with claws (and bite) dragging them into the air to drop on their team mates then when everyone is flat on the ground and can’t dodge use the breath weapon (welcome to no save or at best save at disadvantage) then use spells or tails laps/ claw grabs etc to keep the team from doing anything useful or seriously harmful to the dragon until the breath recharges then go for another cycle. If your not spending most of your time prone, restrained, grappled or stunned then the DM is not playing the dragon to full power. Here are two ancient dragons to read thru to get a better idea of how to play them and what to expect from them.
https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Iryklathagra
https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Klauth
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
Yall know you're arguing against the text of the rulebooks, right? Oh you say that they're not vain? Book says they are. Not impulsive? Well, again, book says they are. You wanna give them entirely different personalities than what the books says they have? Go for it, but you're no longer discussing 5e dragons. Just read the monster manual entry for them. It describes their personalities very clearly. using the exact words to describe them you say that they're not.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
Red dragons learn the opposite of this lesson. They learn they're the biggest baddest monster in town, that other should fear and worship them, and that they are only rivaled by their own kind, and secretly believe they're superior even among them. They don't live for hundreds of years by being cautious they live for hundreds of years by being the strongest most terrifying creatures imaginable.
Sure.
So you agree completely that they'd use melee attacks in combat. Neat.
The DM isn't playing a dragon to full power if you decided you wanted to kill one and survived the trek to get to it before being dispatched by one or more of its servants. But, once there, the dragon itself has only so many options. Especially the reds, to whom fleeing isn't an option. they're never emotionally or spiritually or socially recover from... running like a coward, from... humans. It would itself be a death sentence as every other red dragon in existence would view it as the biggest neon flashing sign broadcasting for all to see just how weak and vulnerable the dragon was. It'd be blood in the water. That isn't an option.
Edit: PS one of those is blue and the other doesn't really talk about their combat strat so those links don't help much.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
this:
“But also cowardly, which a dragon never is.“
This was the most wrong statement that you wrote Rav. Cowardice has never been an indication of using tactics to destroy your enemies. Are archers cowardly for using a bow because it’s the most efficient? No.
And also, “aggressive” when they’re “angered” does not mean “foolhardy”. And it also has no indication about what “angers” a dragon.
Those are you ideas projected onto red dragons Rav, you will notice no one else thinks they act that way. Are they vain and arrogant yes, to the point o stupidity no! Do they normally rage out of control (there own and others) not only no but h*** no.they are vengeful but cunning they think on time scales humans can’t comprehende. They are not children you can dare or bully into an unfair fight or manipulate to your advantage easily. If they were they would be dead already. Almost any trick you can think of they have had pulled on them many times before and see a mile a way and are prepared to deal with it without problems. They are not about to accept your rules on what fair is they have their own and those are all designed to minimize your strengths and maximize theirs. Smart, cunning, viscious, extremely confident but not overconfident they have been there before and done that before, they have the scars but they are still here and their foes are not and that’s the way they wanted it. Yes they are.the meanest S*B in the valley - but that doesn’t mean they don’t recognize that enough of the others could be even meaner and take precautions to keep the others split up. They don’t need 10d12 claws , they have 100D100 years experience in how to best use the claws they have. Against anything but the tough test best prepared L20 plus party they are a TPK waiting to happen.
edit. Yes one was a blue the OP was asking about all dragons not.just reds. There is more on Klauth but you should have the resources to go look him up in the books and earlier editions materials - they said it was an unfinished page. If you want you can look up other red dragons at the wiki that may have more info like: https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Tchazzar
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
If your dragon is spending more than one round at a time in melee combat, then you're not playing that dragon correctly. You're the one nerfing it. Dragons fight in three dimensions, they have Legendary Actions, they have lair actions, they have breath weapons, they have flight, they have magic, and many of them have (perhaps a small army of) minions.
The only reason a dragon should be in melee combat is if it knows, and I mean it KNOWS, that its prey is helpless and it's just playing with its food.
Also, don't just look at the damage dice. Look at the hit bonus. An ancient red does 2d6+10 with claws and 2d10+10 with a bite. But they have a PLUS SEVENTEEN to hit. So even if you're wearing Plate+3, a Shield+3, and a Cloak of Protection, the dragon STILL has a 50% chance to hit with each attack! With a full melee round it'll average 48 HP of damage. That's nothing to sneeze at.
Go ahead... underestimate a dragon. I dare you.
Anzio Faro. Protector Aasimar light cleric. Lvl 18.
Viktor Gavriil. White dragonborn grave cleric. Lvl 20.
Ikram Sahir ibn-Malik al-Sayyid Ra'ad. Brass dragonborn draconic sorcerer Lvl 9. Fire elemental devil.
Wrangler of cats.
Exactly Anzio
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
The thing about red dragons is that they're not interested in complex planning for complexity's sake: that's a green dragon trait. By the time a red dragon hits adulthood, its experience will have taught it that there's very little capable of matching its physical might and charging straight up the middle to unleash fire, claws, and teeth on anything that opposes it will work about 90% of the time.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
Agreed but when a party of high level paladins and barbarians with legendary weapons comes after them they know about it well in advance and are well prepared recognizing them for being part of the other 10% and will use somewhat different tactics because of that. Again they may be vain but they are not stupid.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
To be fair, there was some pretty outright stupid behavior on the part of Red Dragons in the original Dragonlance trilogy reflective of the interpretation of the MM Ravnodaus is asserting. But yes, whatever Monster you're running, if you're not using it to its full feature capacity, you need to let those features guide your imagination. Most dragons, especially an arrogant one isn't going to deign to go mano et draco with an adventurer, it'll send its minions to melee range, and if the fight ain't going well will have no qualms against immolating its minions with the party if it allows maximum breath weapon effect.
As far as the arrogance and avarice, I give my ancient red dragons a "narcissistic rage" legendary action if they are somehow within 10 hp of zero. The dragon doesn't give the party the option of the killing blow, it takes itself out through either a lava flow or a ceiling collapse, taking its hoard with it. Party gets saves to bug out. With the new lair actions suggested in Fizban's the party better see this stunt coming.
On the high iNT. Let's also remember INT is usually used in conjunction with the ability remember facts (think of all the INT skills and how that stat is actually used in game) and maybe "raw arcane mind power" for some class features. A high INT does not equate to any degree of control over emotional volatility. You can have cool dragons if you want, you can also have dragons that are prone to fits of wrath, much in line with what's in the MM.
It's ok to play the same monster differently.
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
Also - when you go off to fight a dragon, the dragon is not the only thing you're fighting. Don't forget the regional effects! Miles before you even reach the lair you'll be experiencing regular earthquakes, or quicksand, or labyrinthine hedgerows, or blizzards, or sinkholes. Any water you find will be undrinkable if not downright poisonous. And literally every single thing that moves is a potential spy reporting status updates back to the dragon. You'll have to fight a wave of minions while half of you are stuck in pit traps. You'll face barrages of arrows from enemies hidden in the fog and mists. The party will be separated by ice walls, or sinkholes, or fissures filled with fire elementals! And we all know what happens when you split the party.
And this dragon has spent centuries learning and shaping every nook and cranny of its territory. It could be 30 feet behind you for a mile and you'd never know. It'll hit you with a breath weapon from 90 feet overhead while traveling 80 feet per round doing 26d6 damage. And then it'll do it again ten minutes later. And then again. And maybe, if you're really lucky, you might hit it once or twice. You might even drop it all the way down to 90% health.
And then nothing. Just more storms, more traps, more minions. You'll try to take a short rest to recover, but five minutes in - BOOM! - breath weapon! And a long rest? LOL! Forget it! Won't happen. The dragon will land right in front of you, hit you with Frightful Presence, and then just fly off laughing while everyone except the 20th level cleric with the 20 Wisdom is frightened out of their gourd. So now you're all at half health, you're running on exhaustion, you're burning through spell slots just clearing trash, or managing the environmental effects. And you haven't even reached the lair yet!
If you think dragons are an easy kill, you don't know how to play a dragon.
Anzio Faro. Protector Aasimar light cleric. Lvl 18.
Viktor Gavriil. White dragonborn grave cleric. Lvl 20.
Ikram Sahir ibn-Malik al-Sayyid Ra'ad. Brass dragonborn draconic sorcerer Lvl 9. Fire elemental devil.
Wrangler of cats.
I like how this Dragon is part Col Kurtz/Part Cobra Commander, combining the final approach in Apocalypse Now with the Weather Dominator.
Let's also be mindful you're describing in mechanical terms Ancients and Great Wyrms. I mean it's cool and all but all dragons are not the apex. I mean if Young and Adult Dragons had all that mojo, a Githyanki raiding party will never be able to get to their mounts because of the Astral inferno they'd have to brave to get to their stables.
Dragons can be a lot of things. Yes, they can be the game ender, they can also be something else's instrument and a little less world shattering.
That's fair. I might give me some wiggle room on what WIS is too though. Not to go all DSM on D&D but, I mean, I'd say many sociopaths may have impulsivity issues despite their ability to sense vulnerabilities or exploits in people. Kinda like how CHR doesn't necessarily make you a nice person, just an "effective" personality. I don't think any of the mental. stats really regulate any sort of conduct at the end of the day beyond their (if you look at it) fairly narrow mechanical obligations in the rules.
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.