Personally, I would have made it a 2nd level spell if I am being completely honest.
Silvery Barbs is probably fine for a 2nd level spell since it is so similar to Divination Wizard's Portent ability, which is also a 2nd level ability. If anyone and their grandpa can get their hands on this spell with Magic Initiate Feat, it easily breaks encounters for the party and/or makes the players feel bad because enemy spellcasters are able to use it against their PCs left and right.
This is not an appropriate spell for 1st level.
You do know at 2nd level Divination Wizards are still only using 1st level spells and cantrips, right?
Portent is one of the most broken, awesomest, and overpowered abilities in the game. The fact that Silvery Barbs even holds up to the feature in comparison is impressive in itself; Barbs should very much be a second level spell at a minimum.
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Personally, I would have made it a 2nd level spell if I am being completely honest.
Silvery Barbs is probably fine for a 2nd level spell since it is so similar to Divination Wizard's Portent ability, which is also a 2nd level ability. If anyone and their grandpa can get their hands on this spell with Magic Initiate Feat, it easily breaks encounters for the party and/or makes the players feel bad because enemy spellcasters are able to use it against their PCs left and right.
This is not an appropriate spell for 1st level.
You do know at 2nd level Divination Wizards are still only using 1st level spells and cantrips, right?
How is that exactly relevant? As stated by multiple people several times already in this thread, the problem is that A) Silvery Barbs is useful at every Tier of play. Even at high levels, this is good spell, and B) a 1st level spell slot is already potentially 4 castings of this spell by 3rd level Wizard (or other full caster with Magical Secrets feat). Portent only has 2 uses between long rests. Not to mention that a Wizard's Arcane Recovery gets you back spell slots on a short rest. So in an adventuring day with even 1 short rest, you have a Wizard who can Silvery Barbs 6 times in just one day as early as 4th level without expending any spell slots above 1st! And you do this after knowing if the roll succeeds or not, which Portent does not receive the benefit of. It's still really good as a 2nd level spell, just not as game-breaking as it would be as a 1st level spell. Heck, maybe it should have been a 3rd level spell so that Wizards can't just Arcane Mastery this thing every single round. Do you know how tedious it would get for the DM if the party Wizard could just nerf every non-Legendary saving throw monster using this spell each round?
Show of (virtual) hands: who here would ever cast Silvery Barbs at 2nd level to do literally anything but stop an enemy crit?
Anybody?
Anybody at all?
Yeah didn't figure so. The spell's not worth casting at second level outside screaming emergencies. Not when it has a better than even chance of accomplishing jack monkey nada. It's only useful function, even at higher levels, is occasionally negating a bit of enemy stray luck. When whatever you're Barbsing has a modifier of +45 to whatever it's rolling, Barbs doesn't do anything at all. It's often not worth it even as a first-level spell, it would almost never be worth it as a second.
Show of (virtual) hands: who here would ever cast Silvery Barbs at 2nd level to do literally anything but stop an enemy crit?
Anybody?
Anybody at all?
I would, and I have.
Yeah didn't figure so. The spell's not worth casting at second level outside screaming emergencies.
That's just not true. If it was worth casting a high level save or suck spell, it is worth burning another spell for a 2nd chance to get a failed save of lesser level slot than the original. That's just objectively true.
Not when it has a better than even chance of accomplishing jack monkey nada. It's only useful function, even at higher levels, is occasionally negating a bit of enemy stray luck.
Entirely false.
When whatever you're Barbsing has a modifier of +45 to whatever it's rolling, Barbs doesn't do anything at all.
... +45? Are you sure you're talking about 5e?
It's often not worth it even as a first-level spell, it would almost never be worth it as a second.
Naw.
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I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
Show of (virtual) hands: who here would ever cast Silvery Barbs at 2nd level to do literally anything but stop an enemy crit?
Anybody?
Anybody at all?
Yeah didn't figure so. The spell's not worth casting at second level outside screaming emergencies. Not when it has a better than even chance of accomplishing jack monkey nada. It's only useful function, even at higher levels, is occasionally negating a bit of enemy stray luck. When whatever you're Barbsing has a modifier of +45 to whatever it's rolling, Barbs doesn't do anything at all. It's often not worth it even as a first-level spell, it would almost never be worth it as a second.
Okay, this is a massive assumption. How scientific is your polling method here? There are definitely high level save-or-suck spells that you really want to make stick where expending a 2nd level spell slot (and boosting yourself/teammate on the next turn) would be very much worth a 2nd level spell slot.
Show of (virtual) hands: who here would ever cast Silvery Barbs at 2nd level to do literally anything but stop an enemy crit?
I would. For one, stopping monster crits is a big deal, and that in itself is worth a first, - if not 2nd level - spell. The advantage from Silvery would be great in some situations, and I would gladly give up a second level slot in order to alter the outcomes of important rolls. Thirdly, there a number of big attacks that Barbs lets you reroll. Some of these attacks can be devastating, even if they aren't crits, and I would not be hesitant to use this spell at 2nd level if it meant saving my or a party member's life.
Also, I think a lot of people's personal experiences with the spell would contradict the statement that "it's often not worth it even as a first-level spell".
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The more I think about this, the more convinced I am that Silvery Barbs needs to be a subclass feature usable X times/ long rest or changed to a 3rd level spell.
Let's look at this from a DM's point of view. Yes, players can nerf your painstakingly prepared BBEG to death with this spell, but you as the DM can do the same to PCs and more frequently because DMs are far more likely to get access to 18th level Wizardry than PCs. IOW, any smart 18th level enemy Wizard would be casting Silvery Barbs every single round wherein they don't think they will likely use Counterspell since it's otherwise free via Arcane Mastery. But of course the players would holler "That's not fair! Combat isn't fun anymore!" And rightly so. Any unlimited use of this spell is just as not fun as unlimited use of Counterspell would be. At least Counerspell is beyond the reach of Arcane Mastery since it's a 3rd level spell.
The more I think about this, the more convinced I am that Silvery Barbs needs to be a subclass feature usable X times/ long rest or changed to a 3rd level spell.
Let's look at this from a DM's point of view. Yes, players can nerf your painstakingly prepared BBEG to death with this spell, but you as the DM can do the same to PCs and more frequently because DMs are far more likely to get access to 18th level Wizardry than PCs. IOW, any smart 18th level enemy Wizard would be casting Silvery Barbs every single round wherein they don't think they will likely use Counterspell since it's otherwise free via Arcane Mastery. But of course the players would holler "That's not fair!" And rightly so. Any unlimited use of this spell is just as not fun as unlimited use of Counterspell would be. At least Counerspell is beyond the reach of Arcane Mastery since it's a 3rd level spell.
No game should ever be balanced due to what the highest levels of play can be (that's just not DnD related... any game). By the time you get to 15th level (one could argue sooner I know) you already have to be care how you are balancing things in the game regards your players.. To solve most people's issue never let the PC's get that high and if you want them to than talk about the Arcane Mastery in advance (it could even be before the actual level happens, probably not needed before than before).
The problem is that A) you already have 10 or 11th level PCs fighting 18th level NPC villains. As opposed to PCs getting to level 18, NPCs villains with what are effectively 18 levels in Cleric, Wizard, Fighter, etc. are not at all rare. Yes, most modules and what have you stop around level 13 or 14 for the PCs. But their boss fights would be either boring or excessive work for the DM if they only fought monsters and NPCs with abilities that are the same class level as themselves. This is why many DMs should be mindful of how OP and tedious (for the players at least) an enemy Wizard would become when this spell can becomes castable an infinite # of times. B) Perhaps most players are not concerned about this, but if you are a DM that likes consistent worldbuilding, you definitely should be. Any spell that effectively doubles the effectiveness of other powerful spells but that only takes up a 1st level or even 2nd level spell slot is one to be very cautious of and to consider the implications of in terms of the game universe you are building. Seriously, why would any Strixhaven mage concerned with surviving battle in any form not take this. And hey, maybe you're role-playing a game with a whole bunch of Wizards with OP abilities doing OP stuff all the time. Great, maybe this spell works in that kind of world. Otherwise? It's pretty world-breaking when one class has so much power accessible at such a low relative resource cost.
Also, as I have already noted earlier in this thread, a Wizard can already cast this 6 times with 1 single short rest at a measly level 4 if you keep Silvery Barbs a 1st level spell. That by itself can break encounters in their favor pretty easily if they know even a little bit about optimization. IOW, this spell at 1st level is most definitely not balanced if you allow all Wizards to take it. And it's so powerful and so flexible that most will once you as the DM allow it in your game and your players learn from the Internet or whatever how potentially powerful it is, esp on any class that can recover spell slots on a short rest.
The more I think about this, the more convinced I am that Silvery Barbs needs to be a subclass feature usable X times/ long rest or changed to a 3rd level spell.
Let's look at this from a DM's point of view. Yes, players can nerf your painstakingly prepared BBEG to death with this spell, but you as the DM can do the same to PCs and more frequently because DMs are far more likely to get access to 18th level Wizardry than PCs. IOW, any smart 18th level enemy Wizard would be casting Silvery Barbs every single round wherein they don't think they will likely use Counterspell since it's otherwise free via Arcane Mastery. But of course the players would holler "That's not fair!" And rightly so. Any unlimited use of this spell is just as not fun as unlimited use of Counterspell would be. At least Counerspell is beyond the reach of Arcane Mastery since it's a 3rd level spell.
No game should ever be balanced due to what the highest levels of play can be (that's just not DnD related... any game). By the time you get to 15th level (one could argue sooner I know) you already have to be care how you are balancing things in the game regards your players.. To solve most people's issue never let the PC's get that high and if you want them to than talk about the Arcane Mastery in advance (it could even be before the actual level happens, probably not needed before than before).
The problem isn't even balance.
The problem is that if a character can force a reroll of any and every successful d20 result within 60ft of themselves at all times, then they necessarily know when a d20 result succeeds within 60ft of themselves at all times. It derails some of the basic assumptions about the game and causes this constant feedback of information to the character... but about game mechanic information.
When some people use the term "Broken" they mean it is very powerful. And yes, Silvery barbs is that, very powerful. But it is also the sense of the word "broken" where it breaks the game. Functionally, damages the game. It is also that type of broken.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
Barbs is a good spell, for the simple reason it boosts and makes spells you normally wouldn't even pick up usable, how often would you pick a spell that has the chance to affect 1 enemy ONCE for a high level spell slot over a spell that could affect multiple enemies at once for that spell slot for example whats the likelihood of you seeing a bunch of enemies and deciding that youd rather try to curse 1 or 2 of em with over crippling more than half of them with a fireball .Most of the popular spells you'd use dont target a single enemy(hypnotic patern) or hell don't even need a save at all(polymorph on an ally , force wall). What it does is make that pickup of charm monster, dominate person , HOLD MONSTER not a complete waste of a spell slot couse what do those spells do on failure ? Absolutely nothing and you have used a super high level spell slot, but with barbs you sudenly get a 2nd chance and they don't feel so awful to use anymore, if it fails luck was just not on your side despite it all, and if it suceeds you didnt waste that single precious 5th level slot atleast. People just look at the spell out of context and dont understand how it fits into the entire picture, yeah forcing a success into a failure seems strong(forcing a re roll without knowing if its a sucess might be a way to balance it ).At low levels its consuming the reaction that might a been an absorb elements or a shield not to mention the fact that those spell slots are realy precious at low levels, and by the time those 1th level slots get less important you have access to spells that don't benefit barbs as much aniway
The more I think about this, the more convinced I am that Silvery Barbs needs to be a subclass feature usable X times/ long rest or changed to a 3rd level spell.
Let's look at this from a DM's point of view. Yes, players can nerf your painstakingly prepared BBEG to death with this spell, but you as the DM can do the same to PCs and more frequently because DMs are far more likely to get access to 18th level Wizardry than PCs. IOW, any smart 18th level enemy Wizard would be casting Silvery Barbs every single round wherein they don't think they will likely use Counterspell since it's otherwise free via Arcane Mastery. But of course the players would holler "That's not fair!" And rightly so. Any unlimited use of this spell is just as not fun as unlimited use of Counterspell would be. At least Counerspell is beyond the reach of Arcane Mastery since it's a 3rd level spell.
No game should ever be balanced due to what the highest levels of play can be (that's just not DnD related... any game). By the time you get to 15th level (one could argue sooner I know) you already have to be care how you are balancing things in the game regards your players.. To solve most people's issue never let the PC's get that high and if you want them to than talk about the Arcane Mastery in advance (it could even be before the actual level happens, probably not needed before than before).
The problem isn't even balance.
The problem is that if a character can force a reroll of any and every successful d20 result within 60ft of themselves at all times, then they necessarily know when a d20 result succeeds within 60ft of themselves at all times. It derails some of the basic assumptions about the game and causes this constant feedback of information to the character... but about game mechanic information.
When some people use the term "Broken" they mean it is very powerful. And yes, Silvery barbs is that, very powerful. But it is also the sense of the word "broken" where it breaks the game. Functionally, damages the game. It is also that type of broken.
Again it takes a reaction, and does use spell slots... in most situations the spell can't be used infinitely... and at the point that you do anyways you have spells that are game breaking anyways...Again, I could argue that it could probably be a second level spell (which is what was mostly agreed upon earlier in the thread)... but again once you get to the level where you learn counter spell most often spell casters are going to want to hold their reaction for that.
As for cheesying social encounters... unless you also ban gift of gab... well its also kind of silolyy
The more I think about this, the more convinced I am that Silvery Barbs needs to be a subclass feature usable X times/ long rest or changed to a 3rd level spell.
Let's look at this from a DM's point of view. Yes, players can nerf your painstakingly prepared BBEG to death with this spell, but you as the DM can do the same to PCs and more frequently because DMs are far more likely to get access to 18th level Wizardry than PCs. IOW, any smart 18th level enemy Wizard would be casting Silvery Barbs every single round wherein they don't think they will likely use Counterspell since it's otherwise free via Arcane Mastery. But of course the players would holler "That's not fair!" And rightly so. Any unlimited use of this spell is just as not fun as unlimited use of Counterspell would be. At least Counerspell is beyond the reach of Arcane Mastery since it's a 3rd level spell.
No game should ever be balanced due to what the highest levels of play can be (that's just not DnD related... any game). By the time you get to 15th level (one could argue sooner I know) you already have to be care how you are balancing things in the game regards your players.. To solve most people's issue never let the PC's get that high and if you want them to than talk about the Arcane Mastery in advance (it could even be before the actual level happens, probably not needed before than before).
The problem isn't even balance.
The problem is that if a character can force a reroll of any and every successful d20 result within 60ft of themselves at all times, then they necessarily know when a d20 result succeeds within 60ft of themselves at all times. It derails some of the basic assumptions about the game and causes this constant feedback of information to the character... but about game mechanic information.
When some people use the term "Broken" they mean it is very powerful. And yes, Silvery barbs is that, very powerful. But it is also the sense of the word "broken" where it breaks the game. Functionally, damages the game. It is also that type of broken.
Again it takes a reaction, and does use spell slots... in most situations the spell can't be used infinitely... and at the point that you do anyways you have spells that are game breaking anyways...Again, I could argue that it could probably be a second level spell (which is what was mostly agreed upon earlier in the thread)... but again once you get to the level where you learn counter spell most often spell casters are going to want to hold their reaction for that.
As for cheesying social encounters... unless you also ban gift of gab... well its also kind of silolyy
No spell breaks the game in this way.
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I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
Again it takes a reaction, and does use spell slots... in most situations the spell can't be used infinitely... and at the point that you do anyways you have spells that are game breaking anyways...Again, I could argue that it could probably be a second level spell (which is what was mostly agreed upon earlier in the thread)... but again once you get to the level where you learn counter spell most often spell casters are going to want to hold their reaction for that.
A reaction is way better than an action or bonus action, and all spells and abilities - including Counterspell - use spell slots. Both of these spells scale very well, and though low level slots aren't exactly unlimited resources, the cost for them is much easier to pay as you grow in levels. Silvery takes up a different spell level as Counterspell, and the latter spell is useless when their isn't an enemy spellcaster in the battle.
Barbs lets you recast any high-level single target "save or suck" spell, which is incredible. Using a 2nd level spell slot to effectively redo a spell of a much higher level doesn't seem like something that would be dwarfed by the ability to potentially stop some of an enemies weaker spells.
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BoringBard's long and tedious posts somehow manage to enrapture audiences. How? Because he used Charm Person, the #1 bard spell!
He/him pronouns. Call me Bard. PROUD NERD!
Ever wanted to talk about your parties' worst mistakes? Do so HERE. What's your favorite class, why? Share & explainHERE.
If anyone has ever played 'Magic the Gathering' this D&D setting is based on you would familiarize Counterspell as the blue Magic wizard players signature spell; blue Magic players specialize in denying their opponent(s) the ability to cast spells against them.
Silvery Barbs is one such spell that accomplish exactly that within a D&D setting.
If anyone has ever played 'Magic the Gathering' this D&D setting is based on you would familiarize Counterspell as the blue Magic wizard players signature spell; blue Magic players specialize in denying their opponent(s) the ability to cast spells against them.
Silvery Barbs is one such spell that accomplish exactly that within a D&D setting.
No, that would be Counterspell. A 3rd level spell that has existed in earlier versions of D&D as well.
However, the fact that you mistakened Silvery Barbs for Counterspell kind of demonstrates my point about how powerful Silvery Barbs is, and therefore should in no way be left as a 1st level spell if allowed at all. This is a poorly balanced spell that, while potentially fun at low levels in something like a Strixhaven campaign, becomes very troublesome in most other settings. In addition to the points I've earlier in this thread, it makes having a Wizard in the party almost mandatory in any power-gamer table just to be able to get this spell and then to Arcane Recovery those 1st level spell slots on a short rest.
If anyone has ever played 'Magic the Gathering' this D&D setting is based on you would familiarize Counterspell as the blue Magic wizard players signature spell; blue Magic players specialize in denying their opponent(s) the ability to cast spells against them.
Silvery Barbs is one such spell that accomplish exactly that within a D&D setting.
No, that would be Counterspell. A 3rd level spell that has existed in earlier versions of D&D as well.
However, the fact that you mistakened Silvery Barbs for Counterspell kind of demonstrates my point about how powerful Silvery Barbs is, and therefore should in no way be left as a 1st level spell if allowed at all. This is a poorly balanced spell that, while potentially fun at low levels in something like a Strixhaven campaign, becomes very troublesome in most other settings. In addition to the points I've earlier in this thread, it makes having a Wizard in the party almost mandatory in any power-gamer table just to be able to get this spell and then to Arcane Recovery those 1st level spell slots on a short rest.
It's far worse in the hands of either an Order Cleric or an Aberrant Mind Sorcerer.
Order Cleric makes it so giving advantage to an ally lets them immediately use a reaction to attack (now at advantage). OP if you have a rogue (or other crit fisher) in your crew.
Aberrant Mind Sorcerer can cast this spell a remarkable number of times a day. A truly silly number. Because their Psionic Spells feature can pick it up, meaning they can cast it directly from SP instead of slots with no components and for cheap.
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I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
If anyone has ever played 'Magic the Gathering' this D&D setting is based on you would familiarize Counterspell as the blue Magic wizard players signature spell; blue Magic players specialize in denying their opponent(s) the ability to cast spells against them.
Silvery Barbs is one such spell that accomplish exactly that within a D&D setting.
No, that would be Counterspell. A 3rd level spell that has existed in earlier versions of D&D as well.
However, the fact that you mistakened Silvery Barbs for Counterspell kind of demonstrates my point about how powerful Silvery Barbs is, and therefore should in no way be left as a 1st level spell if allowed at all. This is a poorly balanced spell that, while potentially fun at low levels in something like a Strixhaven campaign, becomes very troublesome in most other settings. In addition to the points I've earlier in this thread, it makes having a Wizard in the party almost mandatory in any power-gamer table just to be able to get this spell and then to Arcane Recovery those 1st level spell slots on a short rest.
It's far worse in the hands of either an Order Cleric or an Aberrant Mind Sorcerer.
Order Cleric makes it so giving advantage to an ally lets them immediately use a reaction to attack (now at advantage). OP if you have a rogue (or other crit fisher) in your crew.
Aberrant Mind Sorcerer can cast this spell a remarkable number of times a day. A truly silly number. Because their Psionic Spells feature can pick it up, meaning they can cast it directly from SP instead of slots with no components and for cheap.
Hmmmm ... if I cast Silvery Barbs using the Aberrant Mind Sorcerers Psionic Sorcery feature the spell has no components whatsoever, making it uncounterable according to Xanathar's ...
... AND at LVL 6 i can cast it up to 25 times if I convert all of my spellslots to Sorcery Points ...
Somehow I don't think that WotC did the math either on on this spell OR the Aberrant Mind LOL!
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You do know at 2nd level Divination Wizards are still only using 1st level spells and cantrips, right?
Portent is one of the most broken, awesomest, and overpowered abilities in the game. The fact that Silvery Barbs even holds up to the feature in comparison is impressive in itself; Barbs should very much be a second level spell at a minimum.
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HERE.How is that exactly relevant? As stated by multiple people several times already in this thread, the problem is that A) Silvery Barbs is useful at every Tier of play. Even at high levels, this is good spell, and B) a 1st level spell slot is already potentially 4 castings of this spell by 3rd level Wizard (or other full caster with Magical Secrets feat). Portent only has 2 uses between long rests. Not to mention that a Wizard's Arcane Recovery gets you back spell slots on a short rest. So in an adventuring day with even 1 short rest, you have a Wizard who can Silvery Barbs 6 times in just one day as early as 4th level without expending any spell slots above 1st! And you do this after knowing if the roll succeeds or not, which Portent does not receive the benefit of. It's still really good as a 2nd level spell, just not as game-breaking as it would be as a 1st level spell. Heck, maybe it should have been a 3rd level spell so that Wizards can't just Arcane Mastery this thing every single round. Do you know how tedious it would get for the DM if the party Wizard could just nerf every non-Legendary saving throw monster using this spell each round?
Show of (virtual) hands: who here would ever cast Silvery Barbs at 2nd level to do literally anything but stop an enemy crit?
Anybody?
Anybody at all?
Yeah didn't figure so. The spell's not worth casting at second level outside screaming emergencies. Not when it has a better than even chance of accomplishing jack monkey nada. It's only useful function, even at higher levels, is occasionally negating a bit of enemy stray luck. When whatever you're Barbsing has a modifier of +45 to whatever it's rolling, Barbs doesn't do anything at all. It's often not worth it even as a first-level spell, it would almost never be worth it as a second.
Please do not contact or message me.
I would, and I have.
That's just not true. If it was worth casting a high level save or suck spell, it is worth burning another spell for a 2nd chance to get a failed save of lesser level slot than the original. That's just objectively true.
Entirely false.
... +45? Are you sure you're talking about 5e?
Naw.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
Okay, this is a massive assumption. How scientific is your polling method here? There are definitely high level save-or-suck spells that you really want to make stick where expending a 2nd level spell slot (and boosting yourself/teammate on the next turn) would be very much worth a 2nd level spell slot.
I would. For one, stopping monster crits is a big deal, and that in itself is worth a first, - if not 2nd level - spell. The advantage from Silvery would be great in some situations, and I would gladly give up a second level slot in order to alter the outcomes of important rolls. Thirdly, there a number of big attacks that Barbs lets you reroll. Some of these attacks can be devastating, even if they aren't crits, and I would not be hesitant to use this spell at 2nd level if it meant saving my or a party member's life.
Also, I think a lot of people's personal experiences with the spell would contradict the statement that "it's often not worth it even as a first-level spell".
BoringBard's long and tedious posts somehow manage to enrapture audiences. How? Because he used Charm Person, the #1 bard spell!
He/him pronouns. Call me Bard. PROUD NERD!
Ever wanted to talk about your parties' worst mistakes? Do so HERE. What's your favorite class, why? Share & explain
HERE.The more I think about this, the more convinced I am that Silvery Barbs needs to be a subclass feature usable X times/ long rest or changed to a 3rd level spell.
Let's look at this from a DM's point of view. Yes, players can nerf your painstakingly prepared BBEG to death with this spell, but you as the DM can do the same to PCs and more frequently because DMs are far more likely to get access to 18th level Wizardry than PCs. IOW, any smart 18th level enemy Wizard would be casting Silvery Barbs every single round wherein they don't think they will likely use Counterspell since it's otherwise free via Arcane Mastery. But of course the players would holler "That's not fair! Combat isn't fun anymore!" And rightly so. Any unlimited use of this spell is just as not fun as unlimited use of Counterspell would be. At least Counerspell is beyond the reach of Arcane Mastery since it's a 3rd level spell.
No game should ever be balanced due to what the highest levels of play can be (that's just not DnD related... any game).
By the time you get to 15th level (one could argue sooner I know) you already have to be care how you are balancing things in the game regards your players.. To solve most people's issue never let the PC's get that high and if you want them to than talk about the Arcane Mastery in advance (it could even be before the actual level happens, probably not needed before than before).
The problem is that A) you already have 10 or 11th level PCs fighting 18th level NPC villains. As opposed to PCs getting to level 18, NPCs villains with what are effectively 18 levels in Cleric, Wizard, Fighter, etc. are not at all rare. Yes, most modules and what have you stop around level 13 or 14 for the PCs. But their boss fights would be either boring or excessive work for the DM if they only fought monsters and NPCs with abilities that are the same class level as themselves. This is why many DMs should be mindful of how OP and tedious (for the players at least) an enemy Wizard would become when this spell can becomes castable an infinite # of times. B) Perhaps most players are not concerned about this, but if you are a DM that likes consistent worldbuilding, you definitely should be. Any spell that effectively doubles the effectiveness of other powerful spells but that only takes up a 1st level or even 2nd level spell slot is one to be very cautious of and to consider the implications of in terms of the game universe you are building. Seriously, why would any Strixhaven mage concerned with surviving battle in any form not take this. And hey, maybe you're role-playing a game with a whole bunch of Wizards with OP abilities doing OP stuff all the time. Great, maybe this spell works in that kind of world. Otherwise? It's pretty world-breaking when one class has so much power accessible at such a low relative resource cost.
Also, as I have already noted earlier in this thread, a Wizard can already cast this 6 times with 1 single short rest at a measly level 4 if you keep Silvery Barbs a 1st level spell. That by itself can break encounters in their favor pretty easily if they know even a little bit about optimization. IOW, this spell at 1st level is most definitely not balanced if you allow all Wizards to take it. And it's so powerful and so flexible that most will once you as the DM allow it in your game and your players learn from the Internet or whatever how potentially powerful it is, esp on any class that can recover spell slots on a short rest.
The problem isn't even balance.
The problem is that if a character can force a reroll of any and every successful d20 result within 60ft of themselves at all times, then they necessarily know when a d20 result succeeds within 60ft of themselves at all times. It derails some of the basic assumptions about the game and causes this constant feedback of information to the character... but about game mechanic information.
When some people use the term "Broken" they mean it is very powerful. And yes, Silvery barbs is that, very powerful. But it is also the sense of the word "broken" where it breaks the game. Functionally, damages the game. It is also that type of broken.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
Barbs is a good spell, for the simple reason it boosts and makes spells you normally wouldn't even pick up usable, how often would you pick a spell that has the chance to affect 1 enemy ONCE for a high level spell slot over a spell that could affect multiple enemies at once for that spell slot for example whats the likelihood of you seeing a bunch of enemies and deciding that youd rather try to curse 1 or 2 of em with over crippling more than half of them with a fireball .Most of the popular spells you'd use dont target a single enemy(hypnotic patern) or hell don't even need a save at all(polymorph on an ally , force wall). What it does is make that pickup of charm monster, dominate person , HOLD MONSTER not a complete waste of a spell slot couse what do those spells do on failure ? Absolutely nothing and you have used a super high level spell slot, but with barbs you sudenly get a 2nd chance and they don't feel so awful to use anymore, if it fails luck was just not on your side despite it all, and if it suceeds you didnt waste that single precious 5th level slot atleast. People just look at the spell out of context and dont understand how it fits into the entire picture, yeah forcing a success into a failure seems strong(forcing a re roll without knowing if its a sucess might be a way to balance it ).At low levels its consuming the reaction that might a been an absorb elements or a shield not to mention the fact that those spell slots are realy precious at low levels, and by the time those 1th level slots get less important you have access to spells that don't benefit barbs as much aniway
Again it takes a reaction, and does use spell slots... in most situations the spell can't be used infinitely... and at the point that you do anyways you have spells that are game breaking anyways...Again, I could argue that it could probably be a second level spell (which is what was mostly agreed upon earlier in the thread)... but again once you get to the level where you learn counter spell most often spell casters are going to want to hold their reaction for that.
As for cheesying social encounters... unless you also ban gift of gab... well its also kind of silolyy
No spell breaks the game in this way.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
A reaction is way better than an action or bonus action, and all spells and abilities - including Counterspell - use spell slots. Both of these spells scale very well, and though low level slots aren't exactly unlimited resources, the cost for them is much easier to pay as you grow in levels. Silvery takes up a different spell level as Counterspell, and the latter spell is useless when their isn't an enemy spellcaster in the battle.
Barbs lets you recast any high-level single target "save or suck" spell, which is incredible. Using a 2nd level spell slot to effectively redo a spell of a much higher level doesn't seem like something that would be dwarfed by the ability to potentially stop some of an enemies weaker spells.
BoringBard's long and tedious posts somehow manage to enrapture audiences. How? Because he used Charm Person, the #1 bard spell!
He/him pronouns. Call me Bard. PROUD NERD!
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HERE.If anyone has ever played 'Magic the Gathering' this D&D setting is based on you would familiarize Counterspell as the blue Magic wizard players signature spell; blue Magic players specialize in denying their opponent(s) the ability to cast spells against them.
Silvery Barbs is one such spell that accomplish exactly that within a D&D setting.
No, that would be Counterspell. A 3rd level spell that has existed in earlier versions of D&D as well.
However, the fact that you mistakened Silvery Barbs for Counterspell kind of demonstrates my point about how powerful Silvery Barbs is, and therefore should in no way be left as a 1st level spell if allowed at all. This is a poorly balanced spell that, while potentially fun at low levels in something like a Strixhaven campaign, becomes very troublesome in most other settings. In addition to the points I've earlier in this thread, it makes having a Wizard in the party almost mandatory in any power-gamer table just to be able to get this spell and then to Arcane Recovery those 1st level spell slots on a short rest.
It's far worse in the hands of either an Order Cleric or an Aberrant Mind Sorcerer.
Order Cleric makes it so giving advantage to an ally lets them immediately use a reaction to attack (now at advantage). OP if you have a rogue (or other crit fisher) in your crew.
Aberrant Mind Sorcerer can cast this spell a remarkable number of times a day. A truly silly number. Because their Psionic Spells feature can pick it up, meaning they can cast it directly from SP instead of slots with no components and for cheap.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
Was not aware of those features. Thanks!
Hmmmm ... if I cast Silvery Barbs using the Aberrant Mind Sorcerers Psionic Sorcery feature the spell has no components whatsoever, making it uncounterable according to Xanathar's ...
... AND at LVL 6 i can cast it up to 25 times if I convert all of my spellslots to Sorcery Points ...
Somehow I don't think that WotC did the math either on on this spell OR the Aberrant Mind LOL!
#OpenDnD