Druids for all their spell selection and wildshape don’t have the (PHB) ranger’s exploration and travel abilities tho they are definitely better in wilderness areas than anyone except a ranger or a special purpose built scout rogue. Sorcerors put the lie to what? My claim that about rangers?they are certainly better spellcasters but again while you can build a strong wilderness sorceror it’s not part of the general build it’s a specialty build. As I said in an earlier post the ranger is not the best at anything but, like a decathalete or pentathalete, they are competitive in every area and so are the best overall, which is why they are my normal go to as a starting point even if I MC out to strengthen one or another leg. There is no situation in which a decent ranger is not going to be able to help the party they are a member of.
Any class with access to spells like Polymorph does well for exploration, and taking Polymorph hardly makes for a specialty build. If you count the ranger's extra language options as "competitive" in social interaction, you can't tell me druids and sorcerers aren't at least as useful in exploration.
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This should likely be a separate thread because it is rather off topic, but how are sorcerers equally useful for exploration unless specifically built that way to the detriment of other utility and combat capability?
How is discussing whether sorcerers are useful for exploration off-topic in a thread about which class is best, when discussing it with someone who specifically defined best as "competitive" in 4 areas, one of which is exploration? And again, the bar is set at the ranger's social interaction capability - which is basically having access to Insight with likely decent Wis and gaining a few extra languages. Sorcerers picking up spells like Polymorph or Invisibility aren't hurting their utility or combat capability at all, aren't built towards exploration (at least not because of spells like those), and to me easily meet the ranger's social interaction capability comparison test.
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This should likely be a separate thread because it is rather off topic, but how are sorcerers equally useful for exploration unless specifically built that way to the detriment of other utility and combat capability?
How is discussing whether sorcerers are useful for exploration off-topic in a thread about which class is best, when discussing it with someone who specifically defined best as "competitive" in 4 areas, one of which is exploration? And again, the bar is set at the ranger's social interaction capability - which is basically having access to Insight with likely decent Wis and gaining a few extra languages. Sorcerers picking up spells like Polymorph or Invisibility aren't hurting their utility or combat capability at all, aren't built towards exploration (at least not because of spells like those), and to me easily meet the ranger's social interaction capability comparison test.
Both those spells are only an hour duration each, which sounds like a long time but when exploring, you are usually on strategic time. Both are concentration, so cannot be used together and you likely cannot cast at all or even communicate when using polymorph. And one of the biggest complaints against sorcerers is a lack of known spells.
Sure. Same goes for Fly or See Invisibility. Teleportation spells have limitations too. But a couple of languages that may not be relevant to whoever you need to communicate with don't seem like a better proposition in the interaction department. I didn't say the sorcerer's survival tools are perfect - I said they meet the standard of the ranger's interaction tools (and more, arguably).
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This should likely be a separate thread because it is rather off topic, but how are sorcerers equally useful for exploration unless specifically built that way to the detriment of other utility and combat capability?
How is discussing whether sorcerers are useful for exploration off-topic in a thread about which class is best, when discussing it with someone who specifically defined best as "competitive" in 4 areas, one of which is exploration? And again, the bar is set at the ranger's social interaction capability - which is basically having access to Insight with likely decent Wis and gaining a few extra languages. Sorcerers picking up spells like Polymorph or Invisibility aren't hurting their utility or combat capability at all, aren't built towards exploration (at least not because of spells like those), and to me easily meet the ranger's social interaction capability comparison test.
Both those spells are only an hour duration each, which sounds like a long time but when exploring, you are usually on strategic time. Both are concentration, so cannot be used together and you likely cannot cast at all or even communicate when using polymorph. And one of the biggest complaints against sorcerers is a lack of known spells.
Druids are another matter, of course.
Gonna hard disagree here. Turn someone into a bird and you get an entirely new vantage and can access areas you absolutely could not without. I have used polymorph to cover distance when we were in chase. I have used it to even be able to survive in an area (underwater).
you list those downsides like they don’t end the moment you drop the spell when you need it to. Or if any one of the myriad telepathy skills in the game now. I think being able to adapt to literally any environment, gain flight, burrowing, and swimming speeds on demand counts as useful for exploration. Significantly more flexible and useful than having languages which you pick and forget about. And the spell doubles as a combat spell so there is no loss by taking it.
Put bluntly if your languages as a ranger are “select and forget” and not useful in your campaign then it’s not the character’s fault it’s the players. Realistically the PHB ranger is better at social interactions than the Tasha’s. Decently chosen favored enemies give you not only the wisdom checks but the intel checks to know history, culture, etc to aid in interactions. Depending on subclass build the ranger goes from poor/average to decent/good in interactions. Rangers don’t have the blasting spells typical of a sorceror but they do have access to control, healing, combat and utility spells. Can sorcerors or Druids take spells to make them better at exploration? Of course - but would you normally try to build a sorceror to be good in all areas ( exploration, ranged combat, melee combat, magic, social) ? You could but I doubt you typically do. The ranger is/should be average or better in all with a half decent build.
1) Depending on subclass build the ranger goes from poor/average to decent/good in interactions.
2) Can sorcerors or Druids take spells to make them better at exploration? Of course - but would you normally try to build a sorceror to be good in all areas ( exploration, ranged combat, melee combat, magic, social) ? You could but I doubt you typically do.
1) If you're bringing in subclasses Shadow Sorcery gets a solid boost to exploration.
2) I don't know a whole lot of sorcerer builds that don't go for Polymorph and/or a flight spell. Light is a common cantrip choice, and Mage Hand and Shape Water both can have creative uses for traversing or searching areas. Absorb Elements helps against elemental damage from traps, Feather Fall obviously helps with falling. Second level has Darkvision, (See) Invisibility, Misty Step and Enhance Ability as common picks - all have great exploration utility. There's Spider Climb too - a great spell to take now and swap out for Fly later. Third level brings the aforementioned Fly, as well as Clairvoyance, Dispel Magic and if you're feeling funky Gaseous Form. Level 4 gets us Polymorph, Greater Invisibility and Dimension Door if you decided against Misty Step earlier. I'd be really hard pressed to find a sorcerer build that doesn't have at least 3 or 4 of these spells, and they are all relevant for exploration. I don't have to "try" to build a sorcerer that's good at all four of exploration, combat, magic and social - I'd have to specialize away from a whole lot of extremely common spells in order not to be in the first place.
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It's going to come down to the class which matches your playstyle and your character. If you have a short tempered brute of a character and your playstyle is to always rush to the aid of your friends and get between them and the damage to save them, then wizard's not for you and barbarian or paladin probably is.
A wel lthought out character, with rules you're familiar with, will always trump a hollow internet-build in a class you've ever played before in anything except a straight fight - and what DM relies entirely on straight fights?
Paladins with their class features and sheer versatility makes them amazing. On top of their fighting centered class features, they also excel in social encounters, with some decent exploration abilities. If an entire party wanted to be paladins, there wouldn't be too much overlap and this party would be able to cover a lot of bases.. The fact that a character can have +7 to Persuasion at level five, and have an ac of 18, and be dealing decent to spike damage is really beneficial and in my opinion makes it the best class.
1) Depending on subclass build the ranger goes from poor/average to decent/good in interactions.
2) Can sorcerors or Druids take spells to make them better at exploration? Of course - but would you normally try to build a sorceror to be good in all areas ( exploration, ranged combat, melee combat, magic, social) ? You could but I doubt you typically do.
1) If you're bringing in subclasses Shadow Sorcery gets a solid boost to exploration.
2) I don't know a whole lot of sorcerer builds that don't go for Polymorph and/or a flight spell. Light is a common cantrip choice, and Mage Hand and Shape Water both can have creative uses for traversing or searching areas. Absorb Elements helps against elemental damage from traps, Feather Fall obviously helps with falling. Second level has Darkvision, (See) Invisibility, Misty Step and Enhance Ability as common picks - all have great exploration utility. There's Spider Climb too - a great spell to take now and swap out for Fly later. Third level brings the aforementioned Fly, as well as Clairvoyance, Dispel Magic and if you're feeling funky Gaseous Form. Level 4 gets us Polymorph, Greater Invisibility and Dimension Door if you decided against Misty Step earlier. I'd be really hard pressed to find a sorcerer build that doesn't have at least 3 or 4 of these spells, and they are all relevant for exploration. I don't have to "try" to build a sorcerer that's good at all four of exploration, combat, magic and social - I'd have to specialize away from a whole lot of extremely common spells in order not to be in the first place.
I actually wasn’t bringing specific subclasses in, I was granting that for any class some subclasses lend themselves to one or another leg of the game better than other subclasses of the same class. Despite what it sometimes seems like I am aware of the spells a sorceror (and other spell slinging classes) could select to support particular legs, but my point still remains - for a sorceror especially selecting spells to improve exploration, social interaction and melee combat is not playing to their strengths. You can do it, and maybe without weakening them seriously but they are not designed to be generalists with their limited spell selection of known spells. Druids, Clerics and Wizards are better because of their ability to select spells each day to serve the day’s needs. Druids are interesting, They have lots of nature oriented spells but no non spell abilities focused on exploration - I don’t count wildshape although it can be used I think of it as an offensive ability much more than an exploration ability. Bards, warlocks and sorcerors are the charisma based classes. As such they are the go to classes for social interactions, clerics and Druids combine combat and spells and healing, barbarians, fighters and paladins are combat focused, rogues are focused on stealth and skills. All of the other classes have a focus on one or two legs of the game. Sure you can create a build to focus on a third leg as well but the more you reach out to the other legs, the wors3 you get at your primaries. Only the ranger was designed to be decent at all 4 legs without sacrifice. Then you can focus in on specific legs with subclasses and multiclasses. Again, like a pentathalete it’s not “the best” at any leg (except probably exploration since it’s the only full class designed for it) buts a solid contributor on all legs. It’s the best all round class. That said I’m happy to agree to disagree as it’s even more true that the best class for you is the class you prefer and enjoy playing most.
1) ... for a sorceror especially selecting spells to improve exploration, social interaction and melee combat is not playing to their strengths. You can do it, and maybe without weakening them seriously but they are not designed to be generalists with their limited spell selection of known spells.
2) Druids are interesting, They have lots of nature oriented spells but no non spell abilities focused on exploration - I don’t count wildshape although it can be used I think of it as an offensive ability much more than an exploration ability. Bards, warlocks and sorcerors are the charisma based classes. As such they are the go to classes for social interactions, clerics and Druids combine combat and spells and healing, barbarians, fighters and paladins are combat focused, rogues are focused on stealth and skills. All of the other classes have a focus on one or two legs of the game. Sure you can create a build to focus on a third leg as well but the more you reach out to the other legs, the wors3 you get at your primaries.
1) I keep repeating it: a sorcerer will tend to pick up a few spells, Polymorph first and foremost, because those are the most useful ones they can take and which also happen to help significantly with exploration. They're not especially selecting those spells to improve exploration instead of magical ranged combat spells; they're picking them because they are amazing for magical ranged combat as well. Polymorph is a combat-winning spell. Fly is an essential combat spell as soon as you can get it. If you don't have Darkvision innately and you find yourself fighting in darkness, a spell that allows you to see and fight effectively is essential. Teleportation spells and Invisibility are amazing tactical and defensive options. Sorcerers with no regards for exploration whatsoever will pick these spells over and over again because they're that good for combat. They just happen to be amazing for exploration as well. Please, I beg you, let go of this "specialty build / going out of their way / picking exploration spells over others" argument. It's just not correct.
2) All classes have focuses, ranger included. Rangers aren't equally good at social interaction as at combat or exploration, unless you go out of your way and play them against type. Yes, rangers have abilities that apply to social interaction. No, it's not a focus of that class' design. If you think those are good enough to call them "competitive" or "solid contributor" or whatever you want, that's fine. I'm not saying you're wrong. I'm saying several classes are just as good or better in their respective off-focus qualities as rangers are when it comes to social stuff. It doesn't make the ranger class special.
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Your right social interaction isn’t the rangers forte, but then neither is exploration the sorcerors. Will some spells have both combat and exploration uses - sure but having them doesn’t really compare to the always on abilities of the ranger. Polymorph is A L4 concentration spell, at max you have 3 of them good for 3 out of 24 hours of scouting and then your out of L 4 slots. yes you could use higher level slots but then if you need them later your out and relying on cantrips.so what does the sorceror have in cantrips that could be used for exploration/wilderness survival? Dancing lights, friends, message and minor illusion. Useful for hiding and signaling but not much else. Fly - L3 10 minutes each concentration, yes you can scout, travel, escape foes if needed but again if your going to use a spell slot for this which is better a L3/4 spell from the sorceror or a L1 speak with animals from the ranger? My point is still the same - yes other classes can do all 4/5 legs of the game but the ranger does it better. Yes the ranger’s worst area is typically social interaction but unless you’ve nerfed their charisma with an 8 in power building for something else the ranger is no worse than average even there. It’s not the best spell caster, it’s not likely to be the party face, it’s not the stealthiest, the hardest hitting ranged fighter, the hardest hitting melee fighter, it’s not a spell blaster but it’s not so bad at controlling the battlefield, it can do limited healing and even, via spells, has some trap finding ability as well as being a strong ranged and melee combatant with what should be a lot of info on dealing with its favored terrains and foes which can also help with social interactions at least with those foes. My point isn’t that the sorceror/Druid/Wizard/fighter/rogue/ etc can’t but that the ranger does a better job of covering all strands of the game - but then it’s supposed to - it’s the only class that was designed to solo and be successful. The reality is that there is no best class - each was designed to support the others and to have a core of its own that it does better than any other class, exploration/wilderness survival is the ranger’s focus but to survive alone in the wilds you have to be a jack of all trades - good enough at everything without being the master of anything - except surviving to do it all again tomorrow. The PHB ranger is better at this than the Tasha’s since the Tasha ranger gives up a chunk of the exploration abilities ( not all but a significant portion) to improve its fighting abilities as that’s what the majority of players seemed to want. That is fine as long as we recognize that shift. I actually like sorcerors and most of the characters I’m playing now are ranger- sorceror MCs.
Hey, the thread asked about “the best class.” Youse should stop all of that off-topic chatter about Rangers and Paladins before they lock the thread. 😜 Stick to the topic at hand, Artificers. They are like the Borg, they can learn and adapt to new situations and threats with nothing more than a time out. They can be built to fill any roll the party needs (except maybe Face). They can help any character in any party roll be a better them, they can basically do it all, you’re gonna love their nuts.
Is your Ranger… reaching? Artificer makes ‘em better.
Is your Paladin, a paladidn’t? Artificer makes ‘em better.
Is your Rogue blushing, and that ain’t rouge…? Artificer makes ‘em better.
Sorcerer got Spells Known Envy? Artificer makes ‘em better. “And how!” —🦹
And if the artificer can’t help improve that PC’s game, it can replace it at its task, no questions asked. “What? No, we never had a Ranger, that was just Arty the whole time.”—😁
Artificer: “Our worst subclass is better than yours. Imagine how good the other three are…. 😉”
Your right social interaction isn’t the rangers forte, but then neither is exploration the sorcerors. Will some spells have both combat and exploration uses - sure but having them doesn’t really compare to the always on abilities of the ranger. Polymorph is A L4 concentration spell, at max you have 3 of them good for 3 out of 24 hours of scouting and then your out of L 4 slots. yes you could use higher level slots but then if you need them later your out and relying on cantrips.so what does the sorceror have in cantrips that could be used for exploration/wilderness survival? Dancing lights, friends, message and minor illusion. Useful for hiding and signaling but not much else. Fly - L3 10 minutes each concentration, yes you can scout, travel, escape foes if needed but again if your going to use a spell slot for this which is better a L3/4 spell from the sorceror or a L1 speak with animals from the ranger? My point is still the same - yes other classes can do all 4/5 legs of the game but the ranger does it better. Yes the ranger’s worst area is typically social interaction but unless you’ve nerfed their charisma with an 8 in power building for something else the ranger is no worse than average even there. It’s not the best spell caster, it’s not likely to be the party face, it’s not the stealthiest, the hardest hitting ranged fighter, the hardest hitting melee fighter, it’s not a spell blaster but it’s not so bad at controlling the battlefield, it can do limited healing and even, via spells, has some trap finding ability as well as being a strong ranged and melee combatant with what should be a lot of info on dealing with its favored terrains and foes which can also help with social interactions at least with those foes. My point isn’t that the sorceror/Druid/Wizard/fighter/rogue/ etc can’t but that the ranger does a better job of covering all strands of the game - but then it’s supposed to - it’s the only class that was designed to solo and be successful. The reality is that there is no best class - each was designed to support the others and to have a core of its own that it does better than any other class, exploration/wilderness survival is the ranger’s focus but to survive alone in the wilds you have to be a jack of all trades - good enough at everything without being the master of anything - except surviving to do it all again tomorrow. The PHB ranger is better at this than the Tasha’s since the Tasha ranger gives up a chunk of the exploration abilities ( not all but a significant portion) to improve its fighting abilities as that’s what the majority of players seemed to want. That is fine as long as we recognize that shift. I actually like sorcerors and most of the characters I’m playing now are ranger- sorceror MCs.
I feel like this whole thing is an orders of magnitude thing. Rangers get languages, and unless a specific subclass gives anything different, that is their entire social boost.
if we are limiting discussions to sorcerers here, then we need to account for twinning, extending, and also regaining spells with sorcerers points. I have played multiple sorcerers, all of which are built for combat. A shadow and an aberrant mind. During a significant portion of those games I contributed a significant amount more to exploration, social, and investigation than our ranger, who was in their favoured terrain. Twin polymorph gets stuff done and fast. And while rangers can absolutely do stuff exploration wise that a sorcerer can’t, the inverse is also absolutely true. I would love for rangers to get a bit more to really make exploration better for them because they just can’t match what I could do with an unspecialised sorcerer.
just polymorph makes a party so adaptable and solves so many exploration problems that a ranger would not have an answer to. this is a far shout from what a ranger gets in the social aspect. And yeah sure it costs resources. But that’s the nature of having powerful abilities. It doesn’t change the impact those abilities have. And sure if a sorcerer is blowing all their resources doing exploration then yeah they are left with cantrips. But if we are measuring a resourceless sorcerer we are ignoring the spellcasting part of a spell caster. That’s a stacked deck.
Rangers have their niche, but they aren’t as adaptable and flexible as a sorcerer. If they aren’t in their favoured terrain, they are less useful. A sorcerer isn’t limited by that. And even in their favoured terrain, a sorcerer contributed similar amounts of it uses its features.
First question- was the ranger a PHB ranger or a Tasha’s or a mix? It sounds like they were PHB or mix. If that is the case then my suspicion is they didn’t really know how to do exploration if a sorceror was better. The point of favored enemy is that it’s supposed to be selected for the campaign so that you get expertise with intelligence and wisdom skills about the enemies in addition to the languages. It’s not just transforming into something to go look around - you still have to get back to the party and you still have the normal chances to get lost, especially if your alone. Having actually lived and worked in wilderness doing exploration it’s not anywhere near as easy as most DMs make it or as easy as most players make it so while I can see a sorceror outdoing a ranger in exploration I thinks as much because the DM and players didn’t nderstand and play it as difult as it really is/ should be. Not getting lost, finding water and food, good shelter, even fire building and maintaining are all non trivial problems - yes they can be overcome by magic but again each non cantrip spell you cast is one you may need latter in a life /death situation and therefore one not to be wasted if you have someone who can do it without magic. Each class has its own strengths, the ranger is as good as any when it’s leg is played properly ( sadly it seldom is giving a very skewed view of the ranger). Sposta likes the artificer and it’s a great class - but it has its limitations - a max of 6 active infusions (8 for the armorer) means it’s very good itself but isn’t handing out goodies to everyone without hurting the party by sacrificing their own abilities. pan likes his sorceror ( I like them too) but being limited in both spells and slots as well as skills ( you are really going to take survival/nature over arcana?) should limit their ability
Not getting lost, finding water and food, good shelter, even fire building and maintaining are all non trivial problems
Now I actually am going off-topic for a sec, but in 5E those are all fairly trivial for any character with decent Wis and/or Survival proficiency (and proficiencies are not hard to come by).
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Any class with access to spells like Polymorph does well for exploration, and taking Polymorph hardly makes for a specialty build. If you count the ranger's extra language options as "competitive" in social interaction, you can't tell me druids and sorcerers aren't at least as useful in exploration.
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How is discussing whether sorcerers are useful for exploration off-topic in a thread about which class is best, when discussing it with someone who specifically defined best as "competitive" in 4 areas, one of which is exploration? And again, the bar is set at the ranger's social interaction capability - which is basically having access to Insight with likely decent Wis and gaining a few extra languages. Sorcerers picking up spells like Polymorph or Invisibility aren't hurting their utility or combat capability at all, aren't built towards exploration (at least not because of spells like those), and to me easily meet the ranger's social interaction capability comparison test.
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Sure. Same goes for Fly or See Invisibility. Teleportation spells have limitations too. But a couple of languages that may not be relevant to whoever you need to communicate with don't seem like a better proposition in the interaction department. I didn't say the sorcerer's survival tools are perfect - I said they meet the standard of the ranger's interaction tools (and more, arguably).
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Gonna hard disagree here. Turn someone into a bird and you get an entirely new vantage and can access areas you absolutely could not without. I have used polymorph to cover distance when we were in chase. I have used it to even be able to survive in an area (underwater).
you list those downsides like they don’t end the moment you drop the spell when you need it to. Or if any one of the myriad telepathy skills in the game now. I think being able to adapt to literally any environment, gain flight, burrowing, and swimming speeds on demand counts as useful for exploration. Significantly more flexible and useful than having languages which you pick and forget about. And the spell doubles as a combat spell so there is no loss by taking it.
Put bluntly if your languages as a ranger are “select and forget” and not useful in your campaign then it’s not the character’s fault it’s the players. Realistically the PHB ranger is better at social interactions than the Tasha’s. Decently chosen favored enemies give you not only the wisdom checks but the intel checks to know history, culture, etc to aid in interactions. Depending on subclass build the ranger goes from poor/average to decent/good in interactions. Rangers don’t have the blasting spells typical of a sorceror but they do have access to control, healing, combat and utility spells. Can sorcerors or Druids take spells to make them better at exploration? Of course - but would you normally try to build a sorceror to be good in all areas ( exploration, ranged combat, melee combat, magic, social) ? You could but I doubt you typically do. The ranger is/should be average or better in all with a half decent build.
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1) If you're bringing in subclasses Shadow Sorcery gets a solid boost to exploration.
2) I don't know a whole lot of sorcerer builds that don't go for Polymorph and/or a flight spell. Light is a common cantrip choice, and Mage Hand and Shape Water both can have creative uses for traversing or searching areas. Absorb Elements helps against elemental damage from traps, Feather Fall obviously helps with falling. Second level has Darkvision, (See) Invisibility, Misty Step and Enhance Ability as common picks - all have great exploration utility. There's Spider Climb too - a great spell to take now and swap out for Fly later. Third level brings the aforementioned Fly, as well as Clairvoyance, Dispel Magic and if you're feeling funky Gaseous Form. Level 4 gets us Polymorph, Greater Invisibility and Dimension Door if you decided against Misty Step earlier. I'd be really hard pressed to find a sorcerer build that doesn't have at least 3 or 4 of these spells, and they are all relevant for exploration. I don't have to "try" to build a sorcerer that's good at all four of exploration, combat, magic and social - I'd have to specialize away from a whole lot of extremely common spells in order not to be in the first place.
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It's going to come down to the class which matches your playstyle and your character. If you have a short tempered brute of a character and your playstyle is to always rush to the aid of your friends and get between them and the damage to save them, then wizard's not for you and barbarian or paladin probably is.
A wel lthought out character, with rules you're familiar with, will always trump a hollow internet-build in a class you've ever played before in anything except a straight fight - and what DM relies entirely on straight fights?
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I'm gonna say Paladins
Paladins with their class features and sheer versatility makes them amazing. On top of their fighting centered class features, they also excel in social encounters, with some decent exploration abilities. If an entire party wanted to be paladins, there wouldn't be too much overlap and this party would be able to cover a lot of bases.. The fact that a character can have +7 to Persuasion at level five, and have an ac of 18, and be dealing decent to spike damage is really beneficial and in my opinion makes it the best class.
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I actually wasn’t bringing specific subclasses in, I was granting that for any class some subclasses lend themselves to one or another leg of the game better than other subclasses of the same class. Despite what it sometimes seems like I am aware of the spells a sorceror (and other spell slinging classes) could select to support particular legs, but my point still remains - for a sorceror especially selecting spells to improve exploration, social interaction and melee combat is not playing to their strengths. You can do it, and maybe without weakening them seriously but they are not designed to be generalists with their limited spell selection of known spells. Druids, Clerics and Wizards are better because of their ability to select spells each day to serve the day’s needs. Druids are interesting, They have lots of nature oriented spells but no non spell abilities focused on exploration - I don’t count wildshape although it can be used I think of it as an offensive ability much more than an exploration ability. Bards, warlocks and sorcerors are the charisma based classes. As such they are the go to classes for social interactions, clerics and Druids combine combat and spells and healing, barbarians, fighters and paladins are combat focused, rogues are focused on stealth and skills. All of the other classes have a focus on one or two legs of the game. Sure you can create a build to focus on a third leg as well but the more you reach out to the other legs, the wors3 you get at your primaries. Only the ranger was designed to be decent at all 4 legs without sacrifice. Then you can focus in on specific legs with subclasses and multiclasses. Again, like a pentathalete it’s not “the best” at any leg (except probably exploration since it’s the only full class designed for it) buts a solid contributor on all legs. It’s the best all round class. That said I’m happy to agree to disagree as it’s even more true that the best class for you is the class you prefer and enjoy playing most.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
Artificer
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You just had to didn’t you Sposta 😁😜
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
Had to what?
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Lol, well bringing in artificers for one 😁
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
1) I keep repeating it: a sorcerer will tend to pick up a few spells, Polymorph first and foremost, because those are the most useful ones they can take and which also happen to help significantly with exploration. They're not especially selecting those spells to improve exploration instead of magical ranged combat spells; they're picking them because they are amazing for magical ranged combat as well. Polymorph is a combat-winning spell. Fly is an essential combat spell as soon as you can get it. If you don't have Darkvision innately and you find yourself fighting in darkness, a spell that allows you to see and fight effectively is essential. Teleportation spells and Invisibility are amazing tactical and defensive options. Sorcerers with no regards for exploration whatsoever will pick these spells over and over again because they're that good for combat. They just happen to be amazing for exploration as well. Please, I beg you, let go of this "specialty build / going out of their way / picking exploration spells over others" argument. It's just not correct.
2) All classes have focuses, ranger included. Rangers aren't equally good at social interaction as at combat or exploration, unless you go out of your way and play them against type. Yes, rangers have abilities that apply to social interaction. No, it's not a focus of that class' design. If you think those are good enough to call them "competitive" or "solid contributor" or whatever you want, that's fine. I'm not saying you're wrong. I'm saying several classes are just as good or better in their respective off-focus qualities as rangers are when it comes to social stuff. It doesn't make the ranger class special.
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Your right social interaction isn’t the rangers forte, but then neither is exploration the sorcerors. Will some spells have both combat and exploration uses - sure but having them doesn’t really compare to the always on abilities of the ranger. Polymorph is A L4 concentration spell, at max you have 3 of them good for 3 out of 24 hours of scouting and then your out of L 4 slots. yes you could use higher level slots but then if you need them later your out and relying on cantrips.so what does the sorceror have in cantrips that could be used for exploration/wilderness survival? Dancing lights, friends, message and minor illusion. Useful for hiding and signaling but not much else. Fly - L3 10 minutes each concentration, yes you can scout, travel, escape foes if needed but again if your going to use a spell slot for this which is better a L3/4 spell from the sorceror or a L1 speak with animals from the ranger? My point is still the same - yes other classes can do all 4/5 legs of the game but the ranger does it better. Yes the ranger’s worst area is typically social interaction but unless you’ve nerfed their charisma with an 8 in power building for something else the ranger is no worse than average even there. It’s not the best spell caster, it’s not likely to be the party face, it’s not the stealthiest, the hardest hitting ranged fighter, the hardest hitting melee fighter, it’s not a spell blaster but it’s not so bad at controlling the battlefield, it can do limited healing and even, via spells, has some trap finding ability as well as being a strong ranged and melee combatant with what should be a lot of info on dealing with its favored terrains and foes which can also help with social interactions at least with those foes. My point isn’t that the sorceror/Druid/Wizard/fighter/rogue/ etc can’t but that the ranger does a better job of covering all strands of the game - but then it’s supposed to - it’s the only class that was designed to solo and be successful.
The reality is that there is no best class - each was designed to support the others and to have a core of its own that it does better than any other class, exploration/wilderness survival is the ranger’s focus but to survive alone in the wilds you have to be a jack of all trades - good enough at everything without being the master of anything - except surviving to do it all again tomorrow. The PHB ranger is better at this than the Tasha’s since the Tasha ranger gives up a chunk of the exploration abilities ( not all but a significant portion) to improve its fighting abilities as that’s what the majority of players seemed to want. That is fine as long as we recognize that shift. I actually like sorcerors and most of the characters I’m playing now are ranger- sorceror MCs.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
Hey, the thread asked about “the best class.” Youse should stop all of that off-topic chatter about Rangers and Paladins before they lock the thread. 😜 Stick to the topic at hand, Artificers. They are like the Borg, they can learn and adapt to new situations and threats with nothing more than a time out. They can be built to fill any roll the party needs (except maybe Face). They can help any character in any party roll be a better them, they can basically do it all, you’re gonna love their nuts.
And if the artificer can’t help improve that PC’s game, it can replace it at its task, no questions asked. “What? No, we never had a Ranger, that was just Arty the whole time.”—😁
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I feel like this whole thing is an orders of magnitude thing. Rangers get languages, and unless a specific subclass gives anything different, that is their entire social boost.
if we are limiting discussions to sorcerers here, then we need to account for twinning, extending, and also regaining spells with sorcerers points. I have played multiple sorcerers, all of which are built for combat. A shadow and an aberrant mind. During a significant portion of those games I contributed a significant amount more to exploration, social, and investigation than our ranger, who was in their favoured terrain. Twin polymorph gets stuff done and fast. And while rangers can absolutely do stuff exploration wise that a sorcerer can’t, the inverse is also absolutely true. I would love for rangers to get a bit more to really make exploration better for them because they just can’t match what I could do with an unspecialised sorcerer.
just polymorph makes a party so adaptable and solves so many exploration problems that a ranger would not have an answer to. this is a far shout from what a ranger gets in the social aspect. And yeah sure it costs resources. But that’s the nature of having powerful abilities. It doesn’t change the impact those abilities have. And sure if a sorcerer is blowing all their resources doing exploration then yeah they are left with cantrips. But if we are measuring a resourceless sorcerer we are ignoring the spellcasting part of a spell caster. That’s a stacked deck.
Rangers have their niche, but they aren’t as adaptable and flexible as a sorcerer. If they aren’t in their favoured terrain, they are less useful. A sorcerer isn’t limited by that. And even in their favoured terrain, a sorcerer contributed similar amounts of it uses its features.
First question- was the ranger a PHB ranger or a Tasha’s or a mix? It sounds like they were PHB or mix. If that is the case then my suspicion is they didn’t really know how to do exploration if a sorceror was better. The point of favored enemy is that it’s supposed to be selected for the campaign so that you get expertise with intelligence and wisdom skills about the enemies in addition to the languages. It’s not just transforming into something to go look around - you still have to get back to the party and you still have the normal chances to get lost, especially if your alone. Having actually lived and worked in wilderness doing exploration it’s not anywhere near as easy as most DMs make it or as easy as most players make it so while I can see a sorceror outdoing a ranger in exploration I thinks as much because the DM and players didn’t nderstand and play it as difult as it really is/ should be. Not getting lost, finding water and food, good shelter, even fire building and maintaining are all non trivial problems - yes they can be overcome by magic but again each non cantrip spell you cast is one you may need latter in a life /death situation and therefore one not to be wasted if you have someone who can do it without magic. Each class has its own strengths, the ranger is as good as any when it’s leg is played properly ( sadly it seldom is giving a very skewed view of the ranger). Sposta likes the artificer and it’s a great class - but it has its limitations - a max of 6 active infusions (8 for the armorer) means it’s very good itself but isn’t handing out goodies to everyone without hurting the party by sacrificing their own abilities. pan likes his sorceror ( I like them too) but being limited in both spells and slots as well as skills ( you are really going to take survival/nature over arcana?) should limit their ability
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
Now I actually am going off-topic for a sec, but in 5E those are all fairly trivial for any character with decent Wis and/or Survival proficiency (and proficiencies are not hard to come by).
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Bast class? I assume the Cat Goddess can be whatever class she chooses. :)
Sorry, couldn't resist