I've seen this come up in several threads recently, and many more going back - "How do I play as a dragon", "My player wants to play as a dragon", etc.
I am curious if anyone can quantify the reason they want to do so? Is it to become more powerful, or because dragons are cool, or to be able to fly, or what?
I'm curious about the motives, as I'm in the process of making a balanced method for playing as a dragon, and want to make sure it appeals to those who would want to use it!
Hey, I'm just as puzzled as you are, but way back in OD&D Gary Gygax gives advice on letting people play other character types, and the example he gives is a dragon.
Makes me think this particular player desire has been around as long as the game has.
Dragons are the ubiquitous go-to creature in fantasy. They're often the epitome of some trait or feature (which does vary from story to story, but there is usually something that they excel at). They're usually feared or at least revered in pretty much every story.
They're also alien. They usually have a very different mentality, as befitting a reptilian(esque) creature (compared to mammals), which gives them.q.bit of distinction, but not one so alien that you can't understand it. Thatngives it uniqueness.
They're also self sufficient. You rarely come across more than one, but one is usually powerful enough to be a threat to the hero/city/country/whatever. It's not like Orcs who rely on numbers to be powerful. It has a wide range of powers it can combine - it can fly, it can breathe fire, it can use it's strong intellect, use magic sometimes it can charm people, it can fly and so forth. They're not slow sluggards but fast, agile and active. That makes the person controlling it feel very powerful, particularly mixing and matching the powers in combat.
Personally, I'm content with trying the various standard races, but I see the attraction of playing a dragon. When I was young, that would have been a big interest for me.
If there was one thing I think that stops the Dragonborn from being an acceptable alternative? Breath attack. Being able to cast it only once a day stops it from feeling very...dragony. Breath attacks are meant to be their main go to weapon...and I can cast it once per day? I don't know how you can fix that and still be balanced, but it needs to be. Maybe you could tie it (and perhaps fly) into spell slots. You might also decide that a certain class is mandated (or have no class at all).
Just some ideas.
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If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
Dragons are the ubiquitous go-to creature in fantasy. They're often the epitome of some trait or feature (which does vary from story to story, but there is usually something that they excel at). They're usually feared or at least revered in pretty much every story.
They're also alien. They usually have a very different mentality, as befitting a reptilian(esque) creature (compared to mammals), which gives them.q.bit of distinction, but not one so alien that you can't understand it. Thatngives it uniqueness.
They're also self sufficient. You rarely come across more than one, but one is usually powerful enough to be a threat to the hero/city/country/whatever. It's not like Orcs who rely on numbers to be powerful. It has a wide range of powers it can combine - it can fly, it can breathe fire, it can use it's strong intellect, use magic sometimes it can charm people, it can fly and so forth. They're not slow sluggards but fast, agile and active. That makes the person controlling it feel very powerful, particularly mixing and matching the powers in combat.
Personally, I'm content with trying the various standard races, but I see the attraction of playing a dragon. When I was young, that would have been a big interest for me.
If there was one thing I think that stops the Dragonborn from being an acceptable alternative? Breath attack. Being able to cast it only once a day stops it from feeling very...dragony. Breath attacks are meant to be their main go to weapon...and I can cast it once per day? I don't know how you can fix that and still be balanced, but it needs to be. Maybe you could tie it (and perhaps fly) into spell slots. You might also decide that a certain class is mandated (or have no class at all).
Just some ideas.
Thanks for the reply!
My current homebrew is making it so that the breath weapons are useable multiple times, which as you said makes it much more dragony!
I would imagine dragon roleplay to be very much like the political intrigue and machinations of Vampire: The Masquerade, except you're far more beholden to yourself than an organisation or bloodline. I view it as that sort of post-levelling content, where you're so immensely powerful you're playing a whole other game to the typical D&D adventure. A dragon meeting their match in the short term would either face an army or a crack unit of adventurers, but playing the long game - which I think dragon gaming would be best suited for - is with other dragons and beasties of equal wit and strength. I would also want to control subordinate cults and world leaders to further my aims, again, something that I don't believe is really covered in this game.
Ultimately the more I think about roleplaying a dragon as a player rather than DM, the more I'd rather just play a game better suited for it.
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Zero is the most important number in D&D: Session Zero sets the boundaries and the tone; Rule Zero dictates the Dungeon Master (DM) is the final arbiter; and Zero D&D is better than Bad D&D.
"Let us speak plainly now, and in earnest, for words mean little without the weight of conviction."
I would imagine dragon roleplay to be very much like the political intrigue and machinations of Vampire: The Masquerade, except you're far more beholden to yourself than an organisation or bloodline. I view it as that sort of post-levelling content, where you're so immensely powerful you're playing a whole other game to the typical D&D adventure. A dragon meeting their match in the short term would either face an army or a crack unit of adventurers, but playing the long game - which I think dragon gaming would be best suited for - is with other dragons and beasties of equal wit and strength. I would also want to control subordinate cults and world leaders to further my aims, again, something that I don't believe is really covered in this game.
Ultimately the more I think about roleplaying a dragon as a player rather than DM, the more I'd rather just play a game better suited for it.
This, this, this! As a player, I have no interest in being a dragon. The point of D&D (for me) is to be a relatively weak character slowly gaining strength to overcome enemies with much more power than I have. Besting titanic foes, succeeding against insurmountable odds...that's what I love. Dragons are at the top of the food chain. There's not much more mountain to climb.
But as a DM? I love dragons. I run a political intrigue campaign and half of my important NPCs are shapeshifter dragons because...well...who else would be powerful and intelligent enough to be running the show on a global stage? The stakes are also pretty high for failure, because nobody wants a dragon war.
I think much of the allure of playing a dragon comes from their mythos. Ancient, wise, powerful, feared, glorified... it's basically the end goal of a lot of player characters, really, only you get those things by dint of existing. And if you're a dragon in disguise, then you have the added juiciness of being a secret badass.
Imagine there's as many reasons for the desire to play a dragon as there is for the desire to play something else.
There's the sheer, childlike glee in getting to be the super awesome kaiju monster, stomping around and being all big and destructive and cool. Dragons ain't Godzilla, but to the little weenie adventurers on the ground there's not a lot of practical difference between a dragon and Godzilla. And frankly, anyone who tells me they wouldn't have at least a little fun just letting their id run free as a super awesome kaiju monster just ain't got no heart.
There's the idea a lot of players have of, as Bagels said, being a 'secret badass'. It's a very anime sort of thing to have a secret Super Mode available, to know that you have one ticket to being the Sudden Superhero when the party needs you most. Reveal your dragon form right before the party ends up TPK'd and save everybody, even if that means the ruse is up and it's time to leave. That one battle where you get to turn the tables on a super difficult encounter would be a cherished memory for many players.
There's the simple fact that dragons are beings of singular reknown, repute, and power. They're one of the most extensively developed, lore-rich critters in D&D - it wasn't "Fizban's Treasury of Flumphs, Flail Snails, Flesh Golems and Stuff", after all. Many players can easily conceive of really cool stories they can tell with all that lore, ideas for dragon characters that a dragonborn character simply can't encompass. Dragonborn are just dudes in a dragon costume; even the weakest 'True' dragon is still a dragon, with all of the story hooks and the potential for growth that comes with it.
Which might be one of the biggest reasons people want to play dragons - "dudes in an [X] costume" encompass the entirety of the D&D standard playable roster. The game is oddly terrible at letting players deviate from the norm, and in a world with so many wild and fantastical creatures someone might choose to embody, having the rules be so stringent and restrictive when it comes to what you're allowed to play can suck. Just look at what the 'Fairy' PC species turned into - almost nothing about fairies-the-PC-species has any-damn-thing to do with fairies-the-cool-creature. Players often look for homebrew options to make some of those really cool, offbeat ideas try and work because they're tired of always being "Just some guy, except with owl bits this time!"
Thank you all for the further responses! I 100% agree that some part of the allure is not being a human-shaped person in a particular outfit, but being an actual fantasy creature which is capable of doing all the things a person can, and then some!
I thinkl I'm getting a pretty warm feeling about my homebrew with this, it seems to be ticking most of the boxes I'm seeing!
Couple the impression that series has had on a whole recent generation's entry into fantasy with not fully understanding stats and scope and game balance, not realizing the game is imagination balanced with mechanics, it's a big interest among younger players, with flying as a close second.
I actually believe Scholastic (I think) marketing department has it pegged for the age group just before kids start playing D&D usually.
Heck DDB published a one shot where the players played White Dragon Wyrmlings encroaching or vandalizing a Crystal Dragon's lair as part of the run up to Fizban's, so it's not exactly an unprecedented ask.
Dragons are the ubiquitous go-to creature in fantasy. They're often the epitome of some trait or feature (which does vary from story to story, but there is usually something that they excel at). They're usually feared or at least revered in pretty much every story.
They're also alien. They usually have a very different mentality, as befitting a reptilian(esque) creature (compared to mammals), which gives them.q.bit of distinction, but not one so alien that you can't understand it. Thatngives it uniqueness.
They're also self sufficient. You rarely come across more than one, but one is usually powerful enough to be a threat to the hero/city/country/whatever. It's not like Orcs who rely on numbers to be powerful. It has a wide range of powers it can combine - it can fly, it can breathe fire, it can use it's strong intellect, use magic sometimes it can charm people, it can fly and so forth. They're not slow sluggards but fast, agile and active. That makes the person controlling it feel very powerful, particularly mixing and matching the powers in combat.
Personally, I'm content with trying the various standard races, but I see the attraction of playing a dragon. When I was young, that would have been a big interest for me.
If there was one thing I think that stops the Dragonborn from being an acceptable alternative? Breath attack. Being able to cast it only once a day stops it from feeling very...dragony. Breath attacks are meant to be their main go to weapon...and I can cast it once per day? I don't know how you can fix that and still be balanced, but it needs to be. Maybe you could tie it (and perhaps fly) into spell slots. You might also decide that a certain class is mandated (or have no class at all).
Just some ideas.
Have you looked at the updated Dragonborn from Fizbans? They get to use their breath weapon a number of times per day equal to their proficiency modifier AND can use it in place of one of their normal attacks.
But on topic. Dragons are cool. Why wouldn't you want to be a Dragon?
Couple the impression that series has had on a whole recent generation's entry into fantasy with not fully understanding stats and scope and game balance, not realizing the game is imagination balanced with mechanics, it's a big interest among younger players, with flying as a close second.
Heck DDB published a one shot where the players played White Dragon Wyrmlings encroaching or vandalizing a Crystal Dragon's lair as part of the run up to Fizban's, so it's not exactly an unprecedented ask.
Dragons, in real world society, represent a number of ultimates - in Christian ( and to a large extent Jewish and Muslim ) culture dragons have been altered to being satans ultimate tool of destruction. We some of that spillover in the chromatic dragons and the many really stupid ones in Greyhawk and some other campaigns. In oriental cultures, dragons are the agents of the gods and the beings active in the natural world - we see a lot of this in the first world fluff from Fizban. As far as what we can tell about their position in prechristian western culture they were like the oriental view than the Christian view ( like a lot pre Judeo to moslem culture they got demonized by the monotheists) in that they were beings of emended power as well as wisdom and knowledge tied the the workings of the natural world. What person (to one extent or another) wouldn’t want to be one - or at least role play being one. There have been folks wanting to and sometimes doing so since the beginning of D&D whether in game or out. When the internet was just getting started (back in ‘94-96 for the wyrmlings that weren’t hatched yet dracophiles started getting together via the Alt.Fan.Dragons listserv. Some took it even further one of the “dragons” named Dalvenjah was a good coder and created the Dalnet chat network before all the modern social media replaced the chat networks in the early 2000’s. I wouldn’t be surprised to find similar groups still around on Facebook, twitter, etc. and the folks there are no doubt talkings as the dragons they see themselves as just folks did in those ancient days. One of the easiest ways to “homebrew” dragons as PCs is to look at their HD and let them start as PCs of that level or 1-2 levels higher and then play them forward from there as wyrmlings/ young dragons.no you don’t start as a L1 but that was never reasonable - too much has to be nerfed. 3-3.5 actually had rules for this sort of thing if you go look.
Which might be one of the biggest reasons people want to play dragons - "dudes in an [X] costume" encompass the entirety of the D&D standard playable roster. The game is oddly terrible at letting players deviate from the norm, and in a world with so many wild and fantastical creatures someone might choose to embody, having the rules be so stringent and restrictive when it comes to what you're allowed to play can suck. Just look at what the 'Fairy' PC species turned into - almost nothing about fairies-the-PC-species has any-damn-thing to do with fairies-the-cool-creature. Players often look for homebrew options to make some of those really cool, offbeat ideas try and work because they're tired of always being "Just some guy, except with owl bits this time!"
Very true, but there's another consequence of deviating from the norm: it kind of invalidates a lot of the adventures you can buy because of character motivations. Why would fairies-the-cool-creature be interested in the affairs of men and halflings? Curiosity perhaps, but "I'll hang with you guys because you're fascinating" can get old fast, and sort of predicates on the other PCs actually being fascinating. Roleplaying a dragon or other being with a completely alien mindset can be interesting and challenging, but really requires an adventure set up to accomodate this. If you're going to play a dragon as essentially a normal dude shaped like a dragon, it defeats most of the point.
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Which might be one of the biggest reasons people want to play dragons - "dudes in an [X] costume" encompass the entirety of the D&D standard playable roster. The game is oddly terrible at letting players deviate from the norm, and in a world with so many wild and fantastical creatures someone might choose to embody, having the rules be so stringent and restrictive when it comes to what you're allowed to play can suck. Just look at what the 'Fairy' PC species turned into - almost nothing about fairies-the-PC-species has any-damn-thing to do with fairies-the-cool-creature. Players often look for homebrew options to make some of those really cool, offbeat ideas try and work because they're tired of always being "Just some guy, except with owl bits this time!"
Very true, but there's another consequence of deviating from the norm: it kind of invalidates a lot of the adventures you can buy because of character motivations. Why would fairies-the-cool-creature be interested in the affairs of men and halflings? Curiosity perhaps, but "I'll hang with you guys because you're fascinating" can get old fast, and sort of predicates on the other PCs actually being fascinating.
First, you're assuming that an alien-mindset creature would find the same thing fascinating, and consequently the same things boring, as a human. Second, you still get issues of motivation, like why a greedy look-out-for-number-one Chaotic Neutral rogue would want to go on a dangerous quest that doesn't offer an immediate reward. The player and the GM need to figure out these sorts of things either way.
We already have character options for things like Yuan Ti purebreds, which are apparently emotionless sociopaths with completely alien mindsets. It wouldn't kill WotC to be willing to go further than "human with cosplay bits" for other PC races.
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"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
Couple the impression that series has had on a whole recent generation's entry into fantasy with not fully understanding stats and scope and game balance, not realizing the game is imagination balanced with mechanics, it's a big interest among younger players, with flying as a close second.
Heck DDB published a one shot where the players played White Dragon Wyrmlings encroaching or vandalizing a Crystal Dragon's lair as part of the run up to Fizban's, so it's not exactly an unprecedented ask.
I love that series.
Yeah, I'm not knocking it at all when invoking its popularity. I've seen it open up a lot of minds creatively in both storytelling (fan fictiony) and artistic ways (especially after the graphic novels came out to stylistically emulate). I'm not super invested it myself but I know it's quite the gateway book into other fantasy.
So yes, I think the average "can I be a dragon?" ask comes from someone who doesn't have an appreciation for the rules and game design, because of limited if any playing experience. Or they have some experience with the debatable malleability of the rules and wonder if they can't contort the rules to "play big time." So for me at least, I understand where the question is more often than not coming from.
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Couple the impression that series has had on a whole recent generation's entry into fantasy with not fully understanding stats and scope and game balance, not realizing the game is imagination balanced with mechanics, it's a big interest among younger players, with flying as a close second.
Heck DDB published a one shot where the players played White Dragon Wyrmlings encroaching or vandalizing a Crystal Dragon's lair as part of the run up to Fizban's, so it's not exactly an unprecedented ask.
I love that series.
Yeah, I'm not knocking it at all when invoking its popularity. I've seen it open up a lot of minds creatively in both storytelling (fan fictiony) and artistic ways (especially after the graphic novels came out to stylistically emulate). I'm not super invested it myself but I know it's quite the gateway book into other fantasy.
Didn’t think you were- tone in typing issue on my end! I totally agree with you and think it makes complete sense that it would influence the game in that way. It very much helped me with my storytelling like you mentioned- fan fiction opened the gateway into writing my own stuff which led to dnd and in particular, dming for me. Though I’m more interested in other fantasy now (Six of crows and falling kingdoms in particular), I still love the books and read each new one as soon as comes out.
First, you're assuming that an alien-mindset creature would find the same thing fascinating, and consequently the same things boring, as a human.
I'm assuming the opposite, actually.
Either way, nothing requires it to be that way and an alien-mindset creature could decide to stay with a group and assist them for plenty of reasons.
They could. It causes a bit of a disconnect for me if such creatures are played largely as humans-looking-like-non-humans, but that's a personal pet peeve.
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I've seen this come up in several threads recently, and many more going back - "How do I play as a dragon", "My player wants to play as a dragon", etc.
I am curious if anyone can quantify the reason they want to do so? Is it to become more powerful, or because dragons are cool, or to be able to fly, or what?
I'm curious about the motives, as I'm in the process of making a balanced method for playing as a dragon, and want to make sure it appeals to those who would want to use it!
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Hey, I'm just as puzzled as you are, but way back in OD&D Gary Gygax gives advice on letting people play other character types, and the example he gives is a dragon.
Makes me think this particular player desire has been around as long as the game has.
Dragons are the ubiquitous go-to creature in fantasy. They're often the epitome of some trait or feature (which does vary from story to story, but there is usually something that they excel at). They're usually feared or at least revered in pretty much every story.
They're also alien. They usually have a very different mentality, as befitting a reptilian(esque) creature (compared to mammals), which gives them.q.bit of distinction, but not one so alien that you can't understand it. Thatngives it uniqueness.
They're also self sufficient. You rarely come across more than one, but one is usually powerful enough to be a threat to the hero/city/country/whatever. It's not like Orcs who rely on numbers to be powerful. It has a wide range of powers it can combine - it can fly, it can breathe fire, it can use it's strong intellect, use magic sometimes it can charm people, it can fly and so forth. They're not slow sluggards but fast, agile and active. That makes the person controlling it feel very powerful, particularly mixing and matching the powers in combat.
Personally, I'm content with trying the various standard races, but I see the attraction of playing a dragon. When I was young, that would have been a big interest for me.
If there was one thing I think that stops the Dragonborn from being an acceptable alternative? Breath attack. Being able to cast it only once a day stops it from feeling very...dragony. Breath attacks are meant to be their main go to weapon...and I can cast it once per day? I don't know how you can fix that and still be balanced, but it needs to be. Maybe you could tie it (and perhaps fly) into spell slots. You might also decide that a certain class is mandated (or have no class at all).
Just some ideas.
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
Thanks for the reply!
My current homebrew is making it so that the breath weapons are useable multiple times, which as you said makes it much more dragony!
Make your Artificer work with any other class with 174 Multiclassing Feats for your Artificer Multiclass Character!
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DrivethruRPG Releases on This Thread - latest release: My Character is a Werewolf: balanced rules for Lycanthropy!
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I would imagine dragon roleplay to be very much like the political intrigue and machinations of Vampire: The Masquerade, except you're far more beholden to yourself than an organisation or bloodline. I view it as that sort of post-levelling content, where you're so immensely powerful you're playing a whole other game to the typical D&D adventure. A dragon meeting their match in the short term would either face an army or a crack unit of adventurers, but playing the long game - which I think dragon gaming would be best suited for - is with other dragons and beasties of equal wit and strength. I would also want to control subordinate cults and world leaders to further my aims, again, something that I don't believe is really covered in this game.
Ultimately the more I think about roleplaying a dragon as a player rather than DM, the more I'd rather just play a game better suited for it.
Zero is the most important number in D&D: Session Zero sets the boundaries and the tone; Rule Zero dictates the Dungeon Master (DM) is the final arbiter; and Zero D&D is better than Bad D&D.
"Let us speak plainly now, and in earnest, for words mean little without the weight of conviction."
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This, this, this! As a player, I have no interest in being a dragon. The point of D&D (for me) is to be a relatively weak character slowly gaining strength to overcome enemies with much more power than I have. Besting titanic foes, succeeding against insurmountable odds...that's what I love. Dragons are at the top of the food chain. There's not much more mountain to climb.
But as a DM? I love dragons. I run a political intrigue campaign and half of my important NPCs are shapeshifter dragons because...well...who else would be powerful and intelligent enough to be running the show on a global stage? The stakes are also pretty high for failure, because nobody wants a dragon war.
I think much of the allure of playing a dragon comes from their mythos. Ancient, wise, powerful, feared, glorified... it's basically the end goal of a lot of player characters, really, only you get those things by dint of existing. And if you're a dragon in disguise, then you have the added juiciness of being a secret badass.
I think people want to play as a dragon.... Because they are flipping dragons?
Is there really a D&D monster that's as well known and strong as a dragon? They fly, they are huge, they breathe fire (or something else)
Seriously dragons are awesome, I can see why many people would want to play as one
Imagine there's as many reasons for the desire to play a dragon as there is for the desire to play something else.
There's the sheer, childlike glee in getting to be the super awesome kaiju monster, stomping around and being all big and destructive and cool. Dragons ain't Godzilla, but to the little weenie adventurers on the ground there's not a lot of practical difference between a dragon and Godzilla. And frankly, anyone who tells me they wouldn't have at least a little fun just letting their id run free as a super awesome kaiju monster just ain't got no heart.
There's the idea a lot of players have of, as Bagels said, being a 'secret badass'. It's a very anime sort of thing to have a secret Super Mode available, to know that you have one ticket to being the Sudden Superhero when the party needs you most. Reveal your dragon form right before the party ends up TPK'd and save everybody, even if that means the ruse is up and it's time to leave. That one battle where you get to turn the tables on a super difficult encounter would be a cherished memory for many players.
There's the simple fact that dragons are beings of singular reknown, repute, and power. They're one of the most extensively developed, lore-rich critters in D&D - it wasn't "Fizban's Treasury of Flumphs, Flail Snails, Flesh Golems and Stuff", after all. Many players can easily conceive of really cool stories they can tell with all that lore, ideas for dragon characters that a dragonborn character simply can't encompass. Dragonborn are just dudes in a dragon costume; even the weakest 'True' dragon is still a dragon, with all of the story hooks and the potential for growth that comes with it.
Which might be one of the biggest reasons people want to play dragons - "dudes in an [X] costume" encompass the entirety of the D&D standard playable roster. The game is oddly terrible at letting players deviate from the norm, and in a world with so many wild and fantastical creatures someone might choose to embody, having the rules be so stringent and restrictive when it comes to what you're allowed to play can suck. Just look at what the 'Fairy' PC species turned into - almost nothing about fairies-the-PC-species has any-damn-thing to do with fairies-the-cool-creature. Players often look for homebrew options to make some of those really cool, offbeat ideas try and work because they're tired of always being "Just some guy, except with owl bits this time!"
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Thank you all for the further responses! I 100% agree that some part of the allure is not being a human-shaped person in a particular outfit, but being an actual fantasy creature which is capable of doing all the things a person can, and then some!
I thinkl I'm getting a pretty warm feeling about my homebrew with this, it seems to be ticking most of the boxes I'm seeing!
Make your Artificer work with any other class with 174 Multiclassing Feats for your Artificer Multiclass Character!
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Why? Three words: Wings of Fire.
Couple the impression that series has had on a whole recent generation's entry into fantasy with not fully understanding stats and scope and game balance, not realizing the game is imagination balanced with mechanics, it's a big interest among younger players, with flying as a close second.
I actually believe Scholastic (I think) marketing department has it pegged for the age group just before kids start playing D&D usually.
Heck DDB published a one shot where the players played White Dragon Wyrmlings encroaching or vandalizing a Crystal Dragon's lair as part of the run up to Fizban's, so it's not exactly an unprecedented ask.
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
Have you looked at the updated Dragonborn from Fizbans? They get to use their breath weapon a number of times per day equal to their proficiency modifier AND can use it in place of one of their normal attacks.
But on topic. Dragons are cool. Why wouldn't you want to be a Dragon?
She/Her Player and Dungeon Master
I love that series.
Only spilt the party if you see something shiny.
Ariendela Sneakerson, Half-elf Rogue (8); Harmony Wolfsbane, Tiefling Bard (10); Agnomally, Gnomish Sorcerer (3); Breeze, Tabaxi Monk (8); Grace, Dragonborn Barbarian (7); DM, Homebrew- The Sequestered Lands/Underwater Explorers; Candlekeep
Dragons, in real world society, represent a number of ultimates - in Christian ( and to a large extent Jewish and Muslim ) culture dragons have been altered to being satans ultimate tool of destruction. We some of that spillover in the chromatic dragons and the many really stupid ones in Greyhawk and some other campaigns. In oriental cultures, dragons are the agents of the gods and the beings active in the natural world - we see a lot of this in the first world fluff from Fizban. As far as what we can tell about their position in prechristian western culture they were like the oriental view than the Christian view ( like a lot pre Judeo to moslem culture they got demonized by the monotheists) in that they were beings of emended power as well as wisdom and knowledge tied the the workings of the natural world. What person (to one extent or another) wouldn’t want to be one - or at least role play being one. There have been folks wanting to and sometimes doing so since the beginning of D&D whether in game or out. When the internet was just getting started (back in ‘94-96 for the wyrmlings that weren’t hatched yet dracophiles started getting together via the Alt.Fan.Dragons listserv. Some took it even further one of the “dragons” named Dalvenjah was a good coder and created the Dalnet chat network before all the modern social media replaced the chat networks in the early 2000’s. I wouldn’t be surprised to find similar groups still around on Facebook, twitter, etc. and the folks there are no doubt talkings as the dragons they see themselves as just folks did in those ancient days. One of the easiest ways to “homebrew” dragons as PCs is to look at their HD and let them start as PCs of that level or 1-2 levels higher and then play them forward from there as wyrmlings/ young dragons.no you don’t start as a L1 but that was never reasonable - too much has to be nerfed. 3-3.5 actually had rules for this sort of thing if you go look.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
Very true, but there's another consequence of deviating from the norm: it kind of invalidates a lot of the adventures you can buy because of character motivations. Why would fairies-the-cool-creature be interested in the affairs of men and halflings? Curiosity perhaps, but "I'll hang with you guys because you're fascinating" can get old fast, and sort of predicates on the other PCs actually being fascinating. Roleplaying a dragon or other being with a completely alien mindset can be interesting and challenging, but really requires an adventure set up to accomodate this. If you're going to play a dragon as essentially a normal dude shaped like a dragon, it defeats most of the point.
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First, you're assuming that an alien-mindset creature would find the same thing fascinating, and consequently the same things boring, as a human. Second, you still get issues of motivation, like why a greedy look-out-for-number-one Chaotic Neutral rogue would want to go on a dangerous quest that doesn't offer an immediate reward. The player and the GM need to figure out these sorts of things either way.
We already have character options for things like Yuan Ti purebreds, which are apparently emotionless sociopaths with completely alien mindsets. It wouldn't kill WotC to be willing to go further than "human with cosplay bits" for other PC races.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
Yeah, I'm not knocking it at all when invoking its popularity. I've seen it open up a lot of minds creatively in both storytelling (fan fictiony) and artistic ways (especially after the graphic novels came out to stylistically emulate). I'm not super invested it myself but I know it's quite the gateway book into other fantasy.
So yes, I think the average "can I be a dragon?" ask comes from someone who doesn't have an appreciation for the rules and game design, because of limited if any playing experience. Or they have some experience with the debatable malleability of the rules and wonder if they can't contort the rules to "play big time." So for me at least, I understand where the question is more often than not coming from.
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
Didn’t think you were- tone in typing issue on my end! I totally agree with you and think it makes complete sense that it would influence the game in that way. It very much helped me with my storytelling like you mentioned- fan fiction opened the gateway into writing my own stuff which led to dnd and in particular, dming for me. Though I’m more interested in other fantasy now (Six of crows and falling kingdoms in particular), I still love the books and read each new one as soon as comes out.
Only spilt the party if you see something shiny.
Ariendela Sneakerson, Half-elf Rogue (8); Harmony Wolfsbane, Tiefling Bard (10); Agnomally, Gnomish Sorcerer (3); Breeze, Tabaxi Monk (8); Grace, Dragonborn Barbarian (7); DM, Homebrew- The Sequestered Lands/Underwater Explorers; Candlekeep
I'm assuming the opposite, actually.
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Either way, nothing requires it to be that way and an alien-mindset creature could decide to stay with a group and assist them for plenty of reasons.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
They could. It causes a bit of a disconnect for me if such creatures are played largely as humans-looking-like-non-humans, but that's a personal pet peeve.
Want to start playing but don't have anyone to play with? You can try these options: [link].