Nope, sounds like wasted money to me. You paid for something you expected to stay for a while and then suddenly it doesn't exist, like 5 years into its existence? When it was expected to have a much longer lifespan than that? That money is wasted and isn't coming back.
Think how much money people have wasted on Apple products then
Sad that they sugar-buffed a bunch of races and didn't think to even throw the poor ol' standard human a hand. I mean seriously, if you were going to make a whole book of updates and not even make the most "Why play this when the other option is clearly better?" race get an upgrade......
If I understand what was leaked correctly, the Mimicry Ability is still part of the race, they just dropped the "mandated" RP part.
In Nerd Immersions’s part two of the PC Race leaks, the Kenku was shown to indeed still have Mimicry but without the mandate to have to speak with it. They also gained a neat ability to gain advantage on any skill they are proficient with a number of times equal to their prof bonus. They can also be small size as well as medium now.
Oh thank the gods, I was wondering how apparently everyone just hated the mimicry ability just because not everyone was good a doing voices??
I will contrast this makes Kenku just another normal bird race. Among the aarakocra and Owlin, Kenku now feel like something that could be done better by just taking a single level in sorc, war, wiz, or bard for the mimicry abilities. The only part that made Kenku worth existing against the two other bird folks is that it was more thematic - now, it isn't anymore.
Sad that they sugar-buffed a bunch of races and didn't think to even throw the poor ol' standard human a hand. I mean seriously, if you were going to make a whole book of updates and not even make the most "Why play this when the other option is clearly better?" race get an upgrade......
None of the PHB races are in this.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
Sad that they sugar-buffed a bunch of races and didn't think to even throw the poor ol' standard human a hand. I mean seriously, if you were going to make a whole book of updates and not even make the most "Why play this when the other option is clearly better?" race get an upgrade......
Sad that they sugar-buffed a bunch of races and didn't think to even throw the poor ol' standard human a hand. I mean seriously, if you were going to make a whole book of updates and not even make the most "Why play this when the other option is clearly better?" race get an upgrade......
None of the PHB races are in this.
Comment still stands.
Yeah, its a valid comment too. Human by default, while you can definitely see it as powerful in going "BUT YOU GET 3 EXTRA ABILITY POINTS!" is nothing compared to an Elf or some of the newly updated races. My personal opinion is it's coming from a place of "If we update core races, we are making this book a PHB/DMG Lite". We can't do that until 5.5
5.5 I definitely see a huge overhaul coming to all of it. For humans, my guess would be either extra skills or languages or maybe a racial based ASIs since they basically get no extra abilities as part of their lineage.
Sad that they sugar-buffed a bunch of races and didn't think to even throw the poor ol' standard human a hand. I mean seriously, if you were going to make a whole book of updates and not even make the most "Why play this when the other option is clearly better?" race get an upgrade......
None of the PHB races are in this.
Comment still stands.
Yeah, its a valid comment too. Human by default, while you can definitely see it as powerful in going "BUT YOU GET 3 EXTRA ABILITY POINTS!" is nothing compared to an Elf or some of the newly updated races. My personal opinion is it's coming from a place of "If we update core races, we are making this book a PHB/DMG Lite". We can't do that until 5.5
5.5 I definitely see a huge overhaul coming to all of it. For humans, my guess would be either extra skills or languages or maybe a racial based ASIs since they basically get no extra abilities as part of their lineage.
That's what I sorta meant, in other words"wait for it". All these races in MMM are emphatically non-core, not appearing in the PHB. I imagine something is coming to buff "the classics."
No idea what that modification will be though.
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Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
So #3, I'm not sure exactly what you mean by deprecate, but if you mean the new book's contents supersede prior books.
I mean "it replaces the contents of the old books, but you don't get to keep the conflicting content". Which would be at best a PR trainwreck and decently likely to result in a lawsuit that would be more expensive than #1. And yes, some product manager really should have thought about that before they even started this project.
DDB does updates as updates and not errata for monsters, magic items, spells etc. Go check the first post for any book release on Bugs and Support. Most recent ones are pinned to the top. That's precedent for what folks are concerned with. It's just never been on the scale of a whole book being updates. DDB when discussion such changes to owned content being brought in line with latest version are called updates. They only call it errata if it's reflective of an errata document. So like Pang I think there is a bit of kerfuffle over WotC producing a whole book of updates without thinking of the online market ramifications that they've imposed on their online partners.
A bunch of these changes are pretty substantial, so I really hope they treat them as variants rather than change the originals. There is precedent for this, after all, with different versions of Orcs or Dragonborn, etc.
So the various orcs off the "standard" Orc are setting specific Orcs. I haven't really wrapped my head around the Fizban's Dragonborn shift (have one Dragonborn that was using the UA rules and we shifted over to the Fizban's official version with no drama) but I do know that MMM is trying to represent things in a setting agnostic way (lore wise to represent how things would be found throughout the Multiverse).
I don't want to negate or invalidate your hopes (I like variety myself) but the drumbeat to the MMM roll out has seemed to be "this is the STANDARD" going forward.
I like the Fey goblinoids when the Hobgoblin was presented in UA ... but I also really like the "Klingon" interpretation I do through their representation in MToF. I even have my own game lore where when Fey and Prime Material Plane goblinoids meet up, it devolves into finger pointing over which are the lost the ones. Plus, with the whole Fey thing, what happens to Acheron (yeah, I know Orcs are supposed to be there too, but for me it's basically Klingon Goblinoid Valhalla, and it's brutally glorious Heavy Metal).
Those two views on goblinoids are actually compatible. Fey does not actually mean all cute little fairy folk.
Right but the flavor WotC is giving the Fey goblins takes away the militarism for a bordering on Hobbit like celebration of community and hospitality. I think they've dropped saving face for a different mechanism involving team spirit, and also help actions that a lot of folks thought were OP in the UA.
Basically, the Archeron comsologically oriented goblinoids got reskinned to be more like Henson's Labyrinth goblinoids. More muppeted than nerfed. I like them, but would prefer both and I think a lot of fun can be had by the tension between the two kind.
Ok, that is quite a change from simply making them Fey, though. And personally, I always thought the Labyrinth goblins more than a little creepy. They happily steal babies and can and seemingly do look into the room of an underaged girl presumably any time they wish? Near as we can tell, they reproduce by turning human babies into new goblins.
Just because something is a muppet does not mean it is necessarily nice or cuddly. The Skeksis from Dark Crystal were also muppets. Fey are similar. Dryads can be nice tree guardians or can be predators stealing people to keep as pets. Hags are Fey and hardly known for their niceness. Lampad, Madcaps, Quicklings, plenty of normally evil Fey, just as there are evil individuals within the normally good Fey.
Well yeah, a lot of recent interpretations of the Feywild as Big Drop Candy Mountain aside, you can have dark and edgy Feywild denizens, just the UA (and labyrinthesque) interpretation makes goblinoids trickster Fey, sure "mean" tricks or amoral tricksters, but not the spartan/klingon militancy thing you got going in prior 5e lore.
I get the difference and the nuance, I just don't care for a sort of shift that make prior depictions a sort of head scratcher.
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Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
Of course they like it, that’s not the point. Now they haven’t even included the original ASIs in as options anymore. And the PHB races will be in ‘24 (if not sooner).
For WotC, making money is the point and people tend to buy things that they like. Now, the question is how will this impact DnDBeyond. Is it a separate book with "new" races or is it errata?
It's 100% going to be treated as errata, and that's honestly the worst part so far (what happens when you're digital and don't actually own the content you bought) because now we're going to lose all the current content.
While people do tend to buy what they like, industry knows customers will still buy and consume the stuff they gripe about. xP
My hope is that these are treated as like "core" races and what is in the players handbook will be listed as Race (Forgotten Realms)
Of course they like it, that’s not the point. Now they haven’t even included the original ASIs in as options anymore. And the PHB races will be in ‘24 (if not sooner).
For WotC, making money is the point and people tend to buy things that they like. Now, the question is how will this impact DnDBeyond. Is it a separate book with "new" races or is it errata?
It's 100% going to be treated as errata, and that's honestly the worst part so far (what happens when you're digital and don't actually own the content you bought) because now we're going to lose all the current content.
While people do tend to buy what they like, industry knows customers will still buy and consume the stuff they gripe about. xP
My hope is that these are treated as like "core" races and what is in the players handbook will be listed as Race (Forgotten Realms)
That's not possible at the moment for a number of reasons. One of them being that the phb races haven't been updated, so humans would be an oddity in the multiverse and a weak one at that in your proposal.
One thing I find kind of funny about talking about the fixed ASIs as if they are an unalterable part of the D&D experience is that they didn't exist in original / BECMI D&D at all. They were introduced pretty early on, sure, in AD&D 1st Edition but not in their previously "current" form. Only some races got them initially, with humans and half-elves being left out, and the bonuses that races did get have changed over time from Edition to Edition. There's always been changes to how stats work and are adjusted over time (18/95 Strength ringing a bell, anyone?). AD&D 1st Edition was the same version that included women having lower Strength maximums than men as well and I have some serious side-eye for people who would want to preserve that.
Basically, if you personally prefer fixed racial ASIs in your games then apply the Golden Rule and more power to you! Claiming they're some fundamental part of the game seems to be on pretty shaky foundations though.
Generally I liked the look of the changes although I'll agree that Genasi getting combat cantrips instead of utility ones makes me a bit sad. One of the reasons I prefer 5e over 4e is because they did focus on more non-combat stuff again and I'd prefer not to see us trending back the other way for "optimisation" reasons.
Of course they like it, that’s not the point. Now they haven’t even included the original ASIs in as options anymore. And the PHB races will be in ‘24 (if not sooner).
For WotC, making money is the point and people tend to buy things that they like. Now, the question is how will this impact DnDBeyond. Is it a separate book with "new" races or is it errata?
It's 100% going to be treated as errata, and that's honestly the worst part so far (what happens when you're digital and don't actually own the content you bought) because now we're going to lose all the current content.
While people do tend to buy what they like, industry knows customers will still buy and consume the stuff they gripe about. xP
My hope is that these are treated as like "core" races and what is in the players handbook will be listed as Race (Forgotten Realms)
That's not possible at the moment for a number of reasons. One of them being that the phb races haven't been updated, so humans would be an oddity in the multiverse and a weak one at that in your proposal.
Who plays normal humans anyway with Variant Humans being available?
Well the first campaign I played in 5th, me? As the DM didn't allow variant human. But this goes farther than only human, all the races in the phb are on hold. If it was up to me variant human would be the default human, but hey that's just me.
Normal humans can be good for the MAD classes. I'm thinking of a Paladin, who wants Str for attacks, Dex for initiative, Con for health and Cha for spellcasting (obviously Wis is never a bad stat to have, Int is pretty meh). As long as you have rolled high and don't need to specialise, that's an extra +1 in an important stat overall, and another in a stat that is nice to have.
It's just that in classes that aren't MAD, the lack of ability to stack bonuses as well as the fact that most bonuses will be in the "nice but not vital" category plus the lack of other bonuses (just an extra language, right?) makes them rather "meh".
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If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
Sad that they sugar-buffed a bunch of races and didn't think to even throw the poor ol' standard human a hand. I mean seriously, if you were going to make a whole book of updates and not even make the most "Why play this when the other option is clearly better?" race get an upgrade......
None of the PHB races are in this.
Comment still stands.
I guess the question is, when they do get around to the PHB group, whether humans will still be viewed as the baseline against which other races/lineages/whatever get compared
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Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Well, it sounds like ole Mordy’s got some distinct biases against non humans!!!
All kidding aside, I think the lack of addressing the core races while updating the others is probably my only major concern with this.
I am just about to launch a campaign world I have spent the better part of a year designing, and I am curious how much of my work will need to be altered or realigned to these new rules…
I am just about to launch a campaign world I have spent the better part of a year designing, and I am curious how much of my work will need to be altered or realigned to these new rules…
I mean, you don't have to change anything, regardless of any new rules. If you like the current version of X more than the new version, or the current version fits your world better, just keep using it via homebrew or whatever
I hated the old version of kobold with the cringing and the squinting in sunlight and such, so when someone wanted to play one, I came up with a homebrew version for my campaign world, where they're more like the halfling version of dragonborn. Seems like the new version will get rid of the things I didn't like about them as PCs, but I'll just stick with the homebrew unless the player really wants to try the new version
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Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Thankfully our zero session has yet to happen, so I can discuss it with the players and move forward from there. For my campaign I know I don’t have to include any of the new changes.. but I want to keep the option open in case I like the changes (I do like what I’ve seen,) or if my players are enthusiastic or adamantly against some changes. I want to respect their fun too.
I am also approaching this campaign (at the design stage) with the idea that this is a unique world in which some races may not be available (currently I don’t plan to have orcs exist in this world, as well as many ‘subraces’ of elves.) Other races do not have the same origins/lore as they are presented with, and so Mordy’s book may actually be a big boon/aid for me as much as it is a concern,
Personally, as I have said elsewhere, I am a fan of the change directions. I just wish we could have had updates on all player possible races at once, if we were going to go ahead and revise a majority of them.
Has anybody talked about the change in resistance against spells and other magical effects yet?
I think they removed the “other magical effects” part to make the new monster design with new attacks that are not spells but magical effects more potent across the board. It would be really bad if only a handful races would still have a way to diminish the damage of these abilities.
What do you think?
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Sad that they sugar-buffed a bunch of races and didn't think to even throw the poor ol' standard human a hand. I mean seriously, if you were going to make a whole book of updates and not even make the most "Why play this when the other option is clearly better?" race get an upgrade......
Er ek geng, þat er í þeim skóm er ek valda.
UwU
I will contrast this makes Kenku just another normal bird race. Among the aarakocra and Owlin, Kenku now feel like something that could be done better by just taking a single level in sorc, war, wiz, or bard for the mimicry abilities. The only part that made Kenku worth existing against the two other bird folks is that it was more thematic - now, it isn't anymore.
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None of the PHB races are in this.
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
Comment still stands.
Er ek geng, þat er í þeim skóm er ek valda.
UwU
Yeah, its a valid comment too. Human by default, while you can definitely see it as powerful in going "BUT YOU GET 3 EXTRA ABILITY POINTS!" is nothing compared to an Elf or some of the newly updated races. My personal opinion is it's coming from a place of "If we update core races, we are making this book a PHB/DMG Lite". We can't do that until 5.5
5.5 I definitely see a huge overhaul coming to all of it. For humans, my guess would be either extra skills or languages or maybe a racial based ASIs since they basically get no extra abilities as part of their lineage.
That's what I sorta meant, in other words"wait for it". All these races in MMM are emphatically non-core, not appearing in the PHB. I imagine something is coming to buff "the classics."
No idea what that modification will be though.
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
Well yeah, a lot of recent interpretations of the Feywild as Big Drop Candy Mountain aside, you can have dark and edgy Feywild denizens, just the UA (and labyrinthesque) interpretation makes goblinoids trickster Fey, sure "mean" tricks or amoral tricksters, but not the spartan/klingon militancy thing you got going in prior 5e lore.
I get the difference and the nuance, I just don't care for a sort of shift that make prior depictions a sort of head scratcher.
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
My hope is that these are treated as like "core" races and what is in the players handbook will be listed as Race (Forgotten Realms)
That's not possible at the moment for a number of reasons. One of them being that the phb races haven't been updated, so humans would be an oddity in the multiverse and a weak one at that in your proposal.
One thing I find kind of funny about talking about the fixed ASIs as if they are an unalterable part of the D&D experience is that they didn't exist in original / BECMI D&D at all. They were introduced pretty early on, sure, in AD&D 1st Edition but not in their previously "current" form. Only some races got them initially, with humans and half-elves being left out, and the bonuses that races did get have changed over time from Edition to Edition. There's always been changes to how stats work and are adjusted over time (18/95 Strength ringing a bell, anyone?). AD&D 1st Edition was the same version that included women having lower Strength maximums than men as well and I have some serious side-eye for people who would want to preserve that.
Basically, if you personally prefer fixed racial ASIs in your games then apply the Golden Rule and more power to you! Claiming they're some fundamental part of the game seems to be on pretty shaky foundations though.
Generally I liked the look of the changes although I'll agree that Genasi getting combat cantrips instead of utility ones makes me a bit sad. One of the reasons I prefer 5e over 4e is because they did focus on more non-combat stuff again and I'd prefer not to see us trending back the other way for "optimisation" reasons.
Well the first campaign I played in 5th, me? As the DM didn't allow variant human. But this goes farther than only human, all the races in the phb are on hold. If it was up to me variant human would be the default human, but hey that's just me.
Normal humans can be good for the MAD classes. I'm thinking of a Paladin, who wants Str for attacks, Dex for initiative, Con for health and Cha for spellcasting (obviously Wis is never a bad stat to have, Int is pretty meh). As long as you have rolled high and don't need to specialise, that's an extra +1 in an important stat overall, and another in a stat that is nice to have.
It's just that in classes that aren't MAD, the lack of ability to stack bonuses as well as the fact that most bonuses will be in the "nice but not vital" category plus the lack of other bonuses (just an extra language, right?) makes them rather "meh".
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
I guess the question is, when they do get around to the PHB group, whether humans will still be viewed as the baseline against which other races/lineages/whatever get compared
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Humans aren't monsters of the multiverse, at least not according to Mordenkainen (coincidentally human himself).
Want to start playing but don't have anyone to play with? You can try these options: [link].
Clearly an unbiased source. I think we can trust him.
Well, it sounds like ole Mordy’s got some distinct biases against non humans!!!
All kidding aside, I think the lack of addressing the core races while updating the others is probably my only major concern with this.
I am just about to launch a campaign world I have spent the better part of a year designing, and I am curious how much of my work will need to be altered or realigned to these new rules…
I mean, you don't have to change anything, regardless of any new rules. If you like the current version of X more than the new version, or the current version fits your world better, just keep using it via homebrew or whatever
I hated the old version of kobold with the cringing and the squinting in sunlight and such, so when someone wanted to play one, I came up with a homebrew version for my campaign world, where they're more like the halfling version of dragonborn. Seems like the new version will get rid of the things I didn't like about them as PCs, but I'll just stick with the homebrew unless the player really wants to try the new version
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Thankfully our zero session has yet to happen, so I can discuss it with the players and move forward from there. For my campaign I know I don’t have to include any of the new changes.. but I want to keep the option open in case I like the changes (I do like what I’ve seen,) or if my players are enthusiastic or adamantly against some changes. I want to respect their fun too.
I am also approaching this campaign (at the design stage) with the idea that this is a unique world in which some races may not be available (currently I don’t plan to have orcs exist in this world, as well as many ‘subraces’ of elves.) Other races do not have the same origins/lore as they are presented with, and so Mordy’s book may actually be a big boon/aid for me as much as it is a concern,
Personally, as I have said elsewhere, I am a fan of the change directions. I just wish we could have had updates on all player possible races at once, if we were going to go ahead and revise a majority of them.
Has anybody talked about the change in resistance against spells and other magical effects yet?
I think they removed the “other magical effects” part to make the new monster design with new attacks that are not spells but magical effects more potent across the board. It would be really bad if only a handful races would still have a way to diminish the damage of these abilities.
What do you think?