I haven't seen anyone say that they want floating ASI's to be removed entirely. I'm most of use that object to the current way WotC is going would be gladly on the side of folks who love the floating ASI's if they still gave suggestions for Standard ASI's. Or if they added standard but actually went through with their claim that tasha's was optional and add language like "If you have Tasha's Cauldron of Everything you can choose to use the options for customized ability score increases there instead of the ones granted here." Because what we want is still there in both situations and the others have official support for their floating ASI's. So everyone has their fill. This isn't "the thought of someone else being able to play differently is so offensive to you" as you so condescendingly suggest.
This.👆Exactly this.
I’m not POed because you’re getting floating ASIs. I’m POed because I’m losing Racial ASIs. Nobody’s saying anyone who wants floating ASIs shouldn’t be given the choice, as far as I was concerned you always had it, just not written in a book anywhere is all. Nobody says youse can’t/shouldn’t get yours, we’re complaining because they’re taking ours away to give it to you. Have your way, just leave us ours too is all.
Are you? the "traditional" racial ASI combos are still valid with floating ASIs. They aren't taking yours away.
Okay, where are the officially suggested Racial ASIs for the Fairy, Herengon, or Owlin from WotC? Can’t you find them either? They must be really lost then….
Those races didn't exist prior to the change...so I'm not sure what your argument here is. If you are DM'ing and really want to have them, make them up...here, I'll do it
Fairy: CHA +2 WIS +1
Herengon: DEX +2 WIS +1
Owlin: WIS +2 DEX +1
That took....15 seconds (I timed it).
Pick your preferred rebuttal:
Do you work for WotC? ‘Cause I asked for “official.”
Before all you had to say was “Put ‘em wherever you want.” (That took me 2 seconds, I timed it.)
So why can’t WotC include “put ‘em wherever you want, or here’s an optional default for you.”
Please don't lump every person who's not entirely happy with the proceedings together in one pile with the few overly loud and acerbic who most of us who you're associating them with would prefer to cork it too. Most reactions, certainly in this thread, have been pretty civil.
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New material can't break old material? Right up until you get a new group where half the players use the original books they've always used and the other half uses the newer versions they've always (though probably for a shorter amount of time) used.
OK, I'm imagining a scenario where half the party is using fixed ASIs and the other half floating ASIs as they make their characters
I fail to see the issue
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Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
I personally don't think set ASI ever really added much beyond suggesting to players what class to pick and I think a bit of flavor text could have done the same equally if not more effectively. It's generally kind of weird to use power gamers to set a community trend to build your lore rather than just writing it and I don't think it did that job very well. So I really don't care that they are gone and would have even been happy to see players just get a nerf and loose 3 ASI because it makes so little difference but that's not why I think their gone
If it was just a " do what you want thing", you could maybe argue they could have done a 'typically" like they did alignment but I think the idea with the multiverse direction they are taking is that what is typical varies also. They seem to be making a push towards homebrew worlds rather than a set dnd world which I think pushes against the idea of them having a default, they may be moving away from a default world. As a result I think a better option would have been a set multiverse book which had rules for picking things like a set asi or specific forgotten realms setting book that listed some for some races (even though I think flavor text or some feats would do the job better).
I have to wonder how much energy has been spent griping on these forums about floating ASIs...they made the system have more options. Therefore, your traditional +2 CON +1 WIS Hill Dwarves? They still freaking exist in canon. So do all the other traditional ASI versions of every race ever published in 5e. If you want to preserve those in your games, open an excel file, three columns (race, First ASI, second ASI) spend 5 minutes copying them down, and hand the printout to your players.
This just seems like the weirdest battle to be fighting...you don't have to change literally anything about how you play, but the thought of someone else being able to play differently is so offensive to you that multiple threads and posts have been made exclaiming the same opinions.
Seems like the other changes are primarily geared towards making some of the more rarely played races more playable. I'm sure some I'll be happy with, others I won't, but the floating ASI thing just seems like a trivial thing, especially when it still allows the old way in canon, just not explicitly.
I haven't seen anyone say that they want floating ASI's to be removed entirely. I'm most of use that object to the current way WotC is going would be gladly on the side of folks who love the floating ASI's if they still gave suggestions for Standard ASI's.
Did I say that? No, I talked about griping about floating ASIs...which you are, because they are now in place of "traditional" ASIs. The whole crux of my post was that you can still play with "traditional" ASIs with very little effort, so why are you so angry about it? Also, when Tasha's came out there were some folks in these forums (I'm thinking of one in particular with this next statement) who were so angry over it they refused to even type out the books name.
Or if they added standard but actually went through with their claim that tasha's was optional and add language like "If you have Tasha's Cauldron of Everything you can choose to use the options for customized ability score increases there instead of the ones granted here." Because what we want is still there in both situations and the others have official support for their floating ASI's. So everyone has their fill. This isn't "the thought of someone else being able to play differently is so offensive to you" as you so condescendingly suggest.
Just because something was optional in the past does not means it always has to be optional in the future. What you want is still there, its just not explicitly there. So in reality, you are upset because there's a missing couple of sentences in one section of a book that are present in another form in another. Its a waste of print space to support both just so you get to see your preferred numbers in print
And yeah, I was being condescending, and the reason I am is that its exactly this sort of ridiculous griping and grousing that drove me from the forums a few months ago in the first place. I'm just amazed that this issue is still blowing up the forums now.
Your post makes it out to be that those of us who object to the direction of the latest races that we don't want floating scores at all and that no one should have that option at all. Which is an untrue assertion.
"optional in the past" It was touted as optional from the get go and then immediately in the next book that was thrown out. This wasn't some gradual change, this was false advertising.
If Kenku can just talk like a normal race I'm in, but with this update which does change a lot I'm really wondering how many folks will lose their minds in 24 with the new version of the PHB. I'm thinking they gonna change magic Initiate to use whatever casting stat like in Strixhaven.
Floating or fixed ASI is not a hill I am willing to die on. What has me more intrigued are the other changes to many of the races.
All of the changes to the races seem to make them a specific lineage that could have just been built with the custom lineage rule from Tasha's. If the only real difference between picking one race over another is the skinsuit, why bother to have them at all? Just print the custom lineage rules as the way to build a character and drop all of the races.
I am not sure how you could build any of the races by using Custom Lineage. All of them have more than Darkvision OR Skill and there aren't any Feats that replicate the various racial traits. As far as I know, the only race that you can duplicate with Custom Lineage is Variant Human.
Try making an Earth Genasi with this:
Feat. You gain one feat of your choice for which you qualify.
Variable Trait. You gain one of the following options of your choice: (a) darkvision with a range of 60 feet or (b) proficiency in one skill of your choice.
If Kenku can just talk like a normal race I'm in, but with this update which does change a lot I'm really wondering how many folks will lose their minds in 24 with the new version of the PHB. I'm thinking they gonna change magic Initiate to use whatever casting stat like in Strixhaven.
I am sure that they will update Magic Initiate to match as well. I wish they would just do an Errata for it and be done with it.
I . . . I don't get the whining. I just don't. I didn't when people whined about the options in Tasha's Cauldron of Everything, when they whined about the recent errata, when they whined about the Spelljammer Races UA, and I really don't now, when people are whining about these updated races. I can understand criticism, and frequently give constructive criticism over changes/updates/added-options that Wizards of the Coast makes to the game, but the whining is so annoying and unconstructive. I'm no stranger to changing how D&D works at my table. My homebrew rules are extensive and change depending on who is at my table (some players will prefer my homebrewed way of determining ability score improvements, some will prefer how the PHB does it, and some will prefer the post-Tasha's version). If I don't like anything Wizards of the Coast does (lore, mechanical tweaks or rulings, the presence of certain races in my campaigns, etc), I just change it. I change it, explain the change to my players, and then I'm done with it. No need to whine to/about Wizards of the Coast, no need to attack them or call them names, and no need to claim that D&D is "leaving me behind/abandoning me" because something in their books doesn't directly support the minutia of how I run my games.
Sure, it's nice when they support what I do in my games, but it's not a deal breaker when they don't. It's a privilege, not a right, to have Wizards of the Coast directly cater towards your specific playstyle and design the books around what you think "true D&D" is/should be.
There's a lot of constructive criticism to be had about this change (and most things Wizards of the Coast does). I don't like a few of these change and will adjust my games accordingly. I will allow my players that choose the updated Genasi race to pick the damaging cantrips or the elemental-control cantrips. I'll allow my players to choose whether or not they want to use the Old Aasimar vs the New Aasimar. I'll have Duergar count as Dwarves and Shadar-Kai, Sea Elves, and Eladrin count as Elves (I'll also make Eladrin fey, because they should be fey). If one of my players really wants to have Sunlight Sensitivity when playing a Duergar or Kobold (or Drow if this change continues in the reprinted PHB in 2024), I'll let them. If they really don't want it, I will allow them to use the updated races. If they want to play an Aarakocra with a 50-foot fly speed and 25-foot walking speed, I'll let them. It's no big deal to me, and I can adjust my DM style and games to allow for this to not wreck the campaign.
I like a lot of these changes, and I don't like some of them, and I'm entirely neutral on others. I don't care about Sunlight Sensitivity or Small races having a slower walking speed than Medium races. I don't care if subraces are now printed as entirely different stand-alone races. I really don't care if the new races no longer have random height and weight generators, as there's already quite a few in the PHB and Volo's Guide to Monsters. I especially don't care about the removal of listed age ranges of the newer races. There's no mechanics for the ages of D&D races, so there's no reason to freak out/overreact about this.
And I also can see how people wouldn't like some these things. If you don't like them, don't use the new changes. Don't freak out about it, but do give your feedback when WotC has surveys for this kind of stuff. Who knows, maybe they'll eventually add it back in, like they did for Alignment in the monster stat blocks in The Wild Beyond the Witchlight. Don't whine about it, don't go on a tirade about how the end of D&D is nigh, and don't attack people that do like these changes (or the ones that made them), but keep playing your game how you want to and ignore the stuff that Wizards of the Coast puts out, because it won't affect your game unless you let it. Treat it like how you would if a 3rd party homebrewer published that thing. Ignore it, because it won't change your games unless you let it.
And if you're in a situation where you don't like these changes and they aren't entirely optional for you (you only play in Adventurers' League or you only have digital copies of your books and the website ends up treating these changes like an errata). . . that sucks for you, but you signed up for it. I'm sorry, but you should have know that this was a possibility. It was a risk you chose to take, and as much as I empathize with your situation, there's no amount of whining that will get it to change. You might want to re-evaluate how you play right now, if you can and are really determined to not use these changes. And I wish you all in that unfortunate situation luck in your endeavor to purify how you play D&D to better suit your table.
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Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
I’m not entirely sure, but I think it was something Colville said. I think someone had asked him what D&D was and he didn’t know how to answer at first. After a time he eventually landed upon the answer:
Start taking things away from D&D one at a time and whenever you take away something that makes it not D&D anymore, put it back. Keep doing that until all that’s left are the things that you have specifically put back, and whatever is left in that little pile is D&D.
The very first thing I ever put back was Racial ASIs.
Quite literally, one of the few things that I felt was most intrinsically D&D is being discarded from D&D.
I’m not entirely sure, but I think it was something Colville said. I think someone had asked him what D&D was and he didn’t know how to answer at first. After a time he eventually landed upon the answer:
Start taking things away from D&D one at a time and whenever you take away something that makes it not D&D anymore, put it back. Keep doing that until all that’s left are the things that you have specifically put back, and whatever is left in that little pile is D&D.
The very first thing I ever put back was Racial ASIs.
Quite literally, one of the few things that I felt was most intrinsically D&D is being discarded from D&D.
So you decided the ship wasn't the one of Thesus when the first board you stepped on was placed. Nevermind all the boards that had been taken out before that one, those where fine, just THAT one was the defining one to you. So you have to have that specific little board to call it the Ship of Theseus. And that's fine, for you.
Personally I've always found the Ship of Theseus paradox a little silly. To me, the answer was always "Both"
So the argument over "This is the TRUE Ship of Theseus because it still has the board I originally stepped on on it" when that board itself was kinda replacement, is really odd to me.
I’m not entirely sure, but I think it was something Colville said. I think someone had asked him what D&D was and he didn’t know how to answer at first. After a time he eventually landed upon the answer:
Start taking things away from D&D one at a time and whenever you take away something that makes it not D&D anymore, put it back. Keep doing that until all that’s left are the things that you have specifically put back, and whatever is left in that little pile is D&D.
The very first thing I ever put back was Racial ASIs.
Quite literally, one of the few things that I felt was most intrinsically D&D is being discarded from D&D.
So you decided the ship wasn't the one of Thesus when the first board you stepped on was placed. Nevermind all the boards that had been taken out before that one, those where fine, just THAT one was the defining one to you. So you have to have that specific little board to call it the Ship of Theseus. And that's fine, for you.
Personally I've always found the Ship of Theseus paradox a little silly. To me, the answer was always "Both"
So the argument over "This is the TRUE Ship of Theseus because it still has the board I originally stepped on on it" when that board itself was kinda replacement, is really odd to me.
No. But certain things are D&D for me. (Racial ASIs, Classes, Levels, the 6 Ability scores, Hit Points & Hit Dice, Saving Throws, Spells with levels and leveled Spell Slots) To use your Ship of Theseus analogy, those are the Keel, and the Keel is the ship.
If Kenku can just talk like a normal race I'm in, but with this update which does change a lot I'm really wondering how many folks will lose their minds in 24 with the new version of the PHB. I'm thinking they gonna change magic Initiate to use whatever casting stat like in Strixhaven.
I'm hoping that Paladin and Ranger spells get opened up for magic initiate in 2024.
All those juicy smite and strike spells which are currently barred for the arcane classes. They're a perfect spellstrike drop in.
Fire genasi eldritch knight + searing smite = awesome.
[...]All of the changes to the races seem to make them a specific lineage that could have just been built with the custom lineage rule from Tasha's. If the only real difference between picking one race over another is the skinsuit, why bother to have them at all? Just print the custom lineage rules as the way to build a character and drop all of the races.
While this is hyperbole, looking at the changes that have come during 5e's lifetime, I think this is where they'll be heading. Maybe in 2024, or maybe after. Rather than having fixed races with stats and abilities, you'll have a point buy system. You get 10 point, darkvision is worth 3 points, a cantrip is worth 2, elemental resistance is 5, etc. Go build your own. Or a list or array of things and you can pick a certain number of things, if they're lazy.
It will possibly be started off as an optional side thing like floating ASIs in Tasha's was, and then will be made integral to the game like floating ASIs are now.
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If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
[...]All of the changes to the races seem to make them a specific lineage that could have just been built with the custom lineage rule from Tasha's. If the only real difference between picking one race over another is the skinsuit, why bother to have them at all? Just print the custom lineage rules as the way to build a character and drop all of the races.
While this is hyperbole, looking at the changes that have come during 5e's lifetime, I think this is where they'll be heading. Maybe in 2024, or maybe after. Rather than having fixed races with stats and abilities, you'll have a point buy system. You get 10 point, darkvision is worth 3 points, a cantrip is worth 2, elemental resistance is 5, etc. Go build your own. Or a list or array of things and you can pick a certain number of things, if they're lazy.
It will possibly be started off as an optional side thing like floating ASIs in Tasha's was, and then will be made integral to the game like floating ASIs are now.
Yeah I legitimately think that this is where things are heading long term. And I hate it. Player species ceasing to exist, just to be replaced by a goodie grab bag (which will inevitably allow for less diversity than the actual player species ever did).
I don't think it's coming in 2024. It will happen later than that as they've committed to rewriting all the player species for 2024 with MotM and PHB2.
I’m not entirely sure, but I think it was something Colville said. I think someone had asked him what D&D was and he didn’t know how to answer at first. After a time he eventually landed upon the answer:
Start taking things away from D&D one at a time and whenever you take away something that makes it not D&D anymore, put it back. Keep doing that until all that’s left are the things that you have specifically put back, and whatever is left in that little pile is D&D.
The very first thing I ever put back was Racial ASIs.
Quite literally, one of the few things that I felt was most intrinsically D&D is being discarded from D&D.
So you decided the ship wasn't the one of Thesus when the first board you stepped on was placed. Nevermind all the boards that had been taken out before that one, those where fine, just THAT one was the defining one to you. So you have to have that specific little board to call it the Ship of Theseus. And that's fine, for you.
Personally I've always found the Ship of Theseus paradox a little silly. To me, the answer was always "Both"
So the argument over "This is the TRUE Ship of Theseus because it still has the board I originally stepped on on it" when that board itself was kinda replacement, is really odd to me.
No. But certain things are D&D for me. (Racial ASIs, Classes, Levels, the 6 Ability scores, Hit Points & Hit Dice, Saving Throws, Spells with levels and leveled Spell Slots) To use your Ship of Theseus analogy, those are the Keel, and the Keel is the ship.
See, I can respect that those things are D&D for you, but I'd still say the first board you stepped on is a better analogy than the keel. The ASI's are not the keel, I'm no D&D historian, but from what little I've tried to look up, those where not in the original version of D&D. If I'm wrong, please do correct me, I seek to be wrong about as few things as I can be before I die.
Not to get too nautical, but I'd really say if the ship will still run just fine for the majority of people on the ship, if tons of people won't even notice that part is gone, then it's hardly the 'keel', no matter how attached people who've been on the ship for ages are to that piece.
You can both have that piece be very important to you, define the entire thing for you, AND realize it's not some vitally important piece objectively. I'll use a thing I'm a fan of. I love the original comic Young Justice. It had a cast of characters I loved, that defined that comic for me. The cartoon Young Justice? It (at least originally) included literally none of those characters, very little of the tone and none of stuff I really loved about the comic.
It's still Young Justice, it's not MY Young Justice, but it's still Young Justice.
Because the real 'keel' of Young Justice is younger DC heroes, a team, maturing and having their friendships and lives shown. Sure, it may not be "Young Justice" to me because it doesn't feature Tim Drake, Kon-El, and Bart as the founding members, or as many weird jokes about saving the world via baseball. I will never be a fan of it, it will never be MY YJ, but it's still Young Justice.
and D&D without predetermined ASIs is still D&D, even if it's not yours.
[...]All of the changes to the races seem to make them a specific lineage that could have just been built with the custom lineage rule from Tasha's. If the only real difference between picking one race over another is the skinsuit, why bother to have them at all? Just print the custom lineage rules as the way to build a character and drop all of the races.
While this is hyperbole, looking at the changes that have come during 5e's lifetime, I think this is where they'll be heading. Maybe in 2024, or maybe after. Rather than having fixed races with stats and abilities, you'll have a point buy system. You get 10 point, darkvision is worth 3 points, a cantrip is worth 2, elemental resistance is 5, etc. Go build your own. Or a list or array of things and you can pick a certain number of things, if they're lazy.
It will possibly be started off as an optional side thing like floating ASIs in Tasha's was, and then will be made integral to the game like floating ASIs are now.
Yeah I legitimately think that this is where things are heading long term. And I hate it. Player species ceasing to exist, just to be replaced by a goodie grab bag (which will inevitably allow for less diversity than the actual player species ever did).
I don't think it's coming in 2024. It will happen later than that as they've committed to rewriting all the player species for 2024 with MotM and PHB2.
It will allow for greater diversity, but will result in less. In theory, you could make a lot more different builds, but the posts I've seen so far quite strongly support the conclusion that people will optimise and we'll see only a few common builds that are centred around what's the best combination, with the occasional person who will break that mould.
As for 2024, I'm assuming that you're referring to how it's only two years away and they'd have to go back on what they've just released? If so, then I wouldn't count on it. They literally just released Fairy and Harengon in September, and they're revising them now (although we weren't shown what changes there are). I don't know if it's intentional or just the chaotic nature of their management, but they aren't too adverse to changing things pretty much straight after release. That's one thing that does annoy me - I bought TWBtW, but within six months they've changed the stats and want me to pay over a hundred pounds to get the current version. Not even six months.
Anyway, they're talking about massive changes to way the game works while allowing current content to be usable. I think this fits that bill perfectly.
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If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
For me the Floating ASI is fine, I always (and when I say always I been playing DnD for 30 years, second generation player, my dad was my first DM) found it weird that every Dwarf, Elf or whatever had the same racial bonuses. I am sorry but that doesn't happen in real life with humans, your physical and mental abilities are part genetics part upbringing and cultural. If you live somewhere where you walking day after day miles, you CON going to be higher than someone living in a city, getting a car everywhere. Either before Tasha came along I had removed them, gone down the root of Ancenstrial and Cultural Bonuses, which combined to give you abilities. a Dwarf growing up in a Mountain Mine is 100% not going to be the same as one that grown up in a Human city with parents who are highly skill artisan.
With Floating ASI I will probably move over to to them and ask the players to give me a reason they chose x.
The rest Once I get the book in my hand or screen I will take what I want and ignore the rest as I have done for 4 editions..
For me the Floating ASI is fine, I always (and when I say always I been playing DnD for 30 years, second generation player, my dad was my first DM) found it weird that every Dwarf, Elf or whatever had the same racial bonuses. I am sorry but that doesn't happen in real life with humans, your physical and mental abilities are part genetics part upbringing and cultural. If you live somewhere where you walking day after day miles, you CON going to be higher than someone living in a city, getting a car everywhere. Either before Tasha came along I had removed them, gone down the root of Ancenstrial and Cultural Bonuses, which combined to give you abilities. a Dwarf growing up in a Mountain Mine is 100% not going to be the same as one that grown up in a Human city with parents who are highly skill artisan.
With Floating ASI I will probably move over to to them and ask the players to give me a reason they chose x.
The rest Once I get the book in my hand or screen I will take what I want and ignore the rest as I have done for 4 editions..
I mean it does work that way with real species. Yes, some humans will be stronger or more dexterous than each other. But a dwarf is a different species to a human, and so why is it surprising that every member of one species has traits in common in comparison to a different species. Why would it be surprising that every human is weaker than every dwarf? Humans are a weird outlier among primates in that we're exceptionally weak for our size.
Like it's safe to say that every mountain lion is stronger than every cheetah, despite them being extremely closely related and the same subfamily.
And you can replicate the fact that one goliath would have been sedentary while a halfling worked out constantly. That halfling starts at strength 15 due to putting their points in it. That goliath starts at strength 10 due to neglecting it.
(Just clarifying that I think that the Tasha's floating scores should be the default rule. I just find it silly that people think it's unrealistic that some species will be inherently stronger or faster than other species).
For me the Floating ASI is fine, I always (and when I say always I been playing DnD for 30 years, second generation player, my dad was my first DM) found it weird that every Dwarf, Elf or whatever had the same racial bonuses. I am sorry but that doesn't happen in real life with humans, your physical and mental abilities are part genetics part upbringing and cultural. If you live somewhere where you walking day after day miles, you CON going to be higher than someone living in a city, getting a car everywhere. Either before Tasha came along I had removed them, gone down the root of Ancenstrial and Cultural Bonuses, which combined to give you abilities. a Dwarf growing up in a Mountain Mine is 100% not going to be the same as one that grown up in a Human city with parents who are highly skill artisan.
With Floating ASI I will probably move over to to them and ask the players to give me a reason they chose x.
The rest Once I get the book in my hand or screen I will take what I want and ignore the rest as I have done for 4 editions..
I mean it does work that way with real species. Yes, some humans will be stronger or more dexterous than each other. But a dwarf is a different species to a human, and so why is it surprising that every member of one species has traits in common in comparison to a different species. Why would it be surprising that every human is weaker than every dwarf? Humans are a weird outlier among primates in that we're exceptionally weak for our size.
Like it's safe to say that every mountain lion is stronger than every cheetah, despite them being extremely closely related and the same subfamily.
And you can replicate the fact that one goliath would have been sedentary while a halfling worked out constantly. That halfling starts at strength 15 due to putting their points in it. That goliath starts at strength 10 due to neglecting it.
(Just clarifying that I think that the Tasha's floating scores should be the default rule. I just find it silly that people think it's unrealistic that some species will be inherently stronger or faster than other species).
I'd argue that even among species you'd think would always be stronger, there will be weaker ones born though. Now, in OUR world, a mountain lion that is born physically weaker than a cheetah, or a cheetah born with some muscle condition that makes it stronger, will probably actually die early on because of whatever birth defect caused those conditions.
But, in a fantasy game like D&D, you can absolutely argue that any playable race is possibly civilized enough to not just kill off the 'defects'.
Even if you're going with the classic "bunch of brutes" style of Orc, the Orcs realize that having some small weak Orc can be useful. Maybe they survive because they're not as big so they can get in smaller spaces easier (has DEX plus instead of STR or CON), maybe they are smart and come up with good plans (WIS or INT) or just are really good at being likable (CHA). Whatever it is, this Orc isn't as strong, but has focused on some other trait to survive. The Daredevil-ish blind but with hearing senses to the rest of the Orcs sighted world.
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Please don't lump every person who's not entirely happy with the proceedings together in one pile with the few overly loud and acerbic who most of us who you're associating them with would prefer to cork it too. Most reactions, certainly in this thread, have been pretty civil.
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OK, I'm imagining a scenario where half the party is using fixed ASIs and the other half floating ASIs as they make their characters
I fail to see the issue
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Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
I personally don't think set ASI ever really added much beyond suggesting to players what class to pick and I think a bit of flavor text could have done the same equally if not more effectively. It's generally kind of weird to use power gamers to set a community trend to build your lore rather than just writing it and I don't think it did that job very well. So I really don't care that they are gone and would have even been happy to see players just get a nerf and loose 3 ASI because it makes so little difference but that's not why I think their gone
If it was just a " do what you want thing", you could maybe argue they could have done a 'typically" like they did alignment but I think the idea with the multiverse direction they are taking is that what is typical varies also. They seem to be making a push towards homebrew worlds rather than a set dnd world which I think pushes against the idea of them having a default, they may be moving away from a default world. As a result I think a better option would have been a set multiverse book which had rules for picking things like a set asi or specific forgotten realms setting book that listed some for some races (even though I think flavor text or some feats would do the job better).
Your post makes it out to be that those of us who object to the direction of the latest races that we don't want floating scores at all and that no one should have that option at all. Which is an untrue assertion.
"optional in the past" It was touted as optional from the get go and then immediately in the next book that was thrown out. This wasn't some gradual change, this was false advertising.
Er ek geng, þat er í þeim skóm er ek valda.
UwU
If Kenku can just talk like a normal race I'm in, but with this update which does change a lot I'm really wondering how many folks will lose their minds in 24 with the new version of the PHB. I'm thinking they gonna change magic Initiate to use whatever casting stat like in Strixhaven.
I am not sure how you could build any of the races by using Custom Lineage. All of them have more than Darkvision OR Skill and there aren't any Feats that replicate the various racial traits. As far as I know, the only race that you can duplicate with Custom Lineage is Variant Human.
Try making an Earth Genasi with this:
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I am sure that they will update Magic Initiate to match as well. I wish they would just do an Errata for it and be done with it.
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I . . . I don't get the whining. I just don't. I didn't when people whined about the options in Tasha's Cauldron of Everything, when they whined about the recent errata, when they whined about the Spelljammer Races UA, and I really don't now, when people are whining about these updated races. I can understand criticism, and frequently give constructive criticism over changes/updates/added-options that Wizards of the Coast makes to the game, but the whining is so annoying and unconstructive. I'm no stranger to changing how D&D works at my table. My homebrew rules are extensive and change depending on who is at my table (some players will prefer my homebrewed way of determining ability score improvements, some will prefer how the PHB does it, and some will prefer the post-Tasha's version). If I don't like anything Wizards of the Coast does (lore, mechanical tweaks or rulings, the presence of certain races in my campaigns, etc), I just change it. I change it, explain the change to my players, and then I'm done with it. No need to whine to/about Wizards of the Coast, no need to attack them or call them names, and no need to claim that D&D is "leaving me behind/abandoning me" because something in their books doesn't directly support the minutia of how I run my games.
Sure, it's nice when they support what I do in my games, but it's not a deal breaker when they don't. It's a privilege, not a right, to have Wizards of the Coast directly cater towards your specific playstyle and design the books around what you think "true D&D" is/should be.
There's a lot of constructive criticism to be had about this change (and most things Wizards of the Coast does). I don't like a few of these change and will adjust my games accordingly. I will allow my players that choose the updated Genasi race to pick the damaging cantrips or the elemental-control cantrips. I'll allow my players to choose whether or not they want to use the Old Aasimar vs the New Aasimar. I'll have Duergar count as Dwarves and Shadar-Kai, Sea Elves, and Eladrin count as Elves (I'll also make Eladrin fey, because they should be fey). If one of my players really wants to have Sunlight Sensitivity when playing a Duergar or Kobold (or Drow if this change continues in the reprinted PHB in 2024), I'll let them. If they really don't want it, I will allow them to use the updated races. If they want to play an Aarakocra with a 50-foot fly speed and 25-foot walking speed, I'll let them. It's no big deal to me, and I can adjust my DM style and games to allow for this to not wreck the campaign.
I like a lot of these changes, and I don't like some of them, and I'm entirely neutral on others. I don't care about Sunlight Sensitivity or Small races having a slower walking speed than Medium races. I don't care if subraces are now printed as entirely different stand-alone races. I really don't care if the new races no longer have random height and weight generators, as there's already quite a few in the PHB and Volo's Guide to Monsters. I especially don't care about the removal of listed age ranges of the newer races. There's no mechanics for the ages of D&D races, so there's no reason to freak out/overreact about this.
And I also can see how people wouldn't like some these things. If you don't like them, don't use the new changes. Don't freak out about it, but do give your feedback when WotC has surveys for this kind of stuff. Who knows, maybe they'll eventually add it back in, like they did for Alignment in the monster stat blocks in The Wild Beyond the Witchlight. Don't whine about it, don't go on a tirade about how the end of D&D is nigh, and don't attack people that do like these changes (or the ones that made them), but keep playing your game how you want to and ignore the stuff that Wizards of the Coast puts out, because it won't affect your game unless you let it. Treat it like how you would if a 3rd party homebrewer published that thing. Ignore it, because it won't change your games unless you let it.
And if you're in a situation where you don't like these changes and they aren't entirely optional for you (you only play in Adventurers' League or you only have digital copies of your books and the website ends up treating these changes like an errata). . . that sucks for you, but you signed up for it. I'm sorry, but you should have know that this was a possibility. It was a risk you chose to take, and as much as I empathize with your situation, there's no amount of whining that will get it to change. You might want to re-evaluate how you play right now, if you can and are really determined to not use these changes. And I wish you all in that unfortunate situation luck in your endeavor to purify how you play D&D to better suit your table.
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I’m not entirely sure, but I think it was something Colville said. I think someone had asked him what D&D was and he didn’t know how to answer at first. After a time he eventually landed upon the answer:
Start taking things away from D&D one at a time and whenever you take away something that makes it not D&D anymore, put it back. Keep doing that until all that’s left are the things that you have specifically put back, and whatever is left in that little pile is D&D.
The very first thing I ever put back was Racial ASIs.
Quite literally, one of the few things that I felt was most intrinsically D&D is being discarded from D&D.
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So you decided the ship wasn't the one of Thesus when the first board you stepped on was placed.
Nevermind all the boards that had been taken out before that one, those where fine, just THAT one was the defining one to you.
So you have to have that specific little board to call it the Ship of Theseus.
And that's fine, for you.
Personally I've always found the Ship of Theseus paradox a little silly.
To me, the answer was always "Both"
So the argument over "This is the TRUE Ship of Theseus because it still has the board I originally stepped on on it" when that board itself was kinda replacement, is really odd to me.
No. But certain things are D&D for me. (Racial ASIs, Classes, Levels, the 6 Ability scores, Hit Points & Hit Dice, Saving Throws, Spells with levels and leveled Spell Slots) To use your Ship of Theseus analogy, those are the Keel, and the Keel is the ship.
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I'm hoping that Paladin and Ranger spells get opened up for magic initiate in 2024.
All those juicy smite and strike spells which are currently barred for the arcane classes. They're a perfect spellstrike drop in.
Fire genasi eldritch knight + searing smite = awesome.
While this is hyperbole, looking at the changes that have come during 5e's lifetime, I think this is where they'll be heading. Maybe in 2024, or maybe after. Rather than having fixed races with stats and abilities, you'll have a point buy system. You get 10 point, darkvision is worth 3 points, a cantrip is worth 2, elemental resistance is 5, etc. Go build your own. Or a list or array of things and you can pick a certain number of things, if they're lazy.
It will possibly be started off as an optional side thing like floating ASIs in Tasha's was, and then will be made integral to the game like floating ASIs are now.
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
Yeah I legitimately think that this is where things are heading long term. And I hate it. Player species ceasing to exist, just to be replaced by a goodie grab bag (which will inevitably allow for less diversity than the actual player species ever did).
I don't think it's coming in 2024. It will happen later than that as they've committed to rewriting all the player species for 2024 with MotM and PHB2.
See, I can respect that those things are D&D for you, but I'd still say the first board you stepped on is a better analogy than the keel.
The ASI's are not the keel, I'm no D&D historian, but from what little I've tried to look up, those where not in the original version of D&D.
If I'm wrong, please do correct me, I seek to be wrong about as few things as I can be before I die.
Not to get too nautical, but I'd really say if the ship will still run just fine for the majority of people on the ship, if tons of people won't even notice that part is gone, then it's hardly the 'keel', no matter how attached people who've been on the ship for ages are to that piece.
You can both have that piece be very important to you, define the entire thing for you, AND realize it's not some vitally important piece objectively.
I'll use a thing I'm a fan of.
I love the original comic Young Justice.
It had a cast of characters I loved, that defined that comic for me.
The cartoon Young Justice?
It (at least originally) included literally none of those characters, very little of the tone and none of stuff I really loved about the comic.
It's still Young Justice, it's not MY Young Justice, but it's still Young Justice.
Because the real 'keel' of Young Justice is younger DC heroes, a team, maturing and having their friendships and lives shown.
Sure, it may not be "Young Justice" to me because it doesn't feature Tim Drake, Kon-El, and Bart as the founding members, or as many weird jokes about saving the world via baseball.
I will never be a fan of it, it will never be MY YJ, but it's still Young Justice.
and D&D without predetermined ASIs is still D&D, even if it's not yours.
It will allow for greater diversity, but will result in less. In theory, you could make a lot more different builds, but the posts I've seen so far quite strongly support the conclusion that people will optimise and we'll see only a few common builds that are centred around what's the best combination, with the occasional person who will break that mould.
As for 2024, I'm assuming that you're referring to how it's only two years away and they'd have to go back on what they've just released? If so, then I wouldn't count on it. They literally just released Fairy and Harengon in September, and they're revising them now (although we weren't shown what changes there are). I don't know if it's intentional or just the chaotic nature of their management, but they aren't too adverse to changing things pretty much straight after release. That's one thing that does annoy me - I bought TWBtW, but within six months they've changed the stats and want me to pay over a hundred pounds to get the current version. Not even six months.
Anyway, they're talking about massive changes to way the game works while allowing current content to be usable. I think this fits that bill perfectly.
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For me the Floating ASI is fine, I always (and when I say always I been playing DnD for 30 years, second generation player, my dad was my first DM) found it weird that every Dwarf, Elf or whatever had the same racial bonuses. I am sorry but that doesn't happen in real life with humans, your physical and mental abilities are part genetics part upbringing and cultural. If you live somewhere where you walking day after day miles, you CON going to be higher than someone living in a city, getting a car everywhere. Either before Tasha came along I had removed them, gone down the root of Ancenstrial and Cultural Bonuses, which combined to give you abilities. a Dwarf growing up in a Mountain Mine is 100% not going to be the same as one that grown up in a Human city with parents who are highly skill artisan.
With Floating ASI I will probably move over to to them and ask the players to give me a reason they chose x.
The rest Once I get the book in my hand or screen I will take what I want and ignore the rest as I have done for 4 editions..
I mean it does work that way with real species. Yes, some humans will be stronger or more dexterous than each other. But a dwarf is a different species to a human, and so why is it surprising that every member of one species has traits in common in comparison to a different species. Why would it be surprising that every human is weaker than every dwarf? Humans are a weird outlier among primates in that we're exceptionally weak for our size.
Like it's safe to say that every mountain lion is stronger than every cheetah, despite them being extremely closely related and the same subfamily.
And you can replicate the fact that one goliath would have been sedentary while a halfling worked out constantly. That halfling starts at strength 15 due to putting their points in it. That goliath starts at strength 10 due to neglecting it.
(Just clarifying that I think that the Tasha's floating scores should be the default rule. I just find it silly that people think it's unrealistic that some species will be inherently stronger or faster than other species).
I'd argue that even among species you'd think would always be stronger, there will be weaker ones born though.
Now, in OUR world, a mountain lion that is born physically weaker than a cheetah, or a cheetah born with some muscle condition that makes it stronger, will probably actually die early on because of whatever birth defect caused those conditions.
But, in a fantasy game like D&D, you can absolutely argue that any playable race is possibly civilized enough to not just kill off the 'defects'.
Even if you're going with the classic "bunch of brutes" style of Orc, the Orcs realize that having some small weak Orc can be useful.
Maybe they survive because they're not as big so they can get in smaller spaces easier (has DEX plus instead of STR or CON), maybe they are smart and come up with good plans (WIS or INT) or just are really good at being likable (CHA).
Whatever it is, this Orc isn't as strong, but has focused on some other trait to survive.
The Daredevil-ish blind but with hearing senses to the rest of the Orcs sighted world.