We are not asking for details. The question is very simple: Will the existing content be updated, or will the only way to get the updated versions be via purchasing the new product?
We are not asking about a timeline or anything like that. But it sounds like what you are saying is that you put the product out for sale without having the most basic idea of how you will implement this. What you seem to be saying is that you can't answer because you don't know.
And you should be able to appreciate why that is not merely unsatisfactory, but a highly unreasonable business practice. I am a realtor (DRE01947142). If I took a non refundable payment for a new home, but when asked if it was going to be a condo or a house the answer was "I haven't decided yet" I would lose my license. Its a completely unreasonable thing to do. You are not a kickstarter. People are not investing in your business. We are you customers. If you can't even say roughly what service you are selling, then that isn't a sale.
Mellie, I understand that this is not your personal choice. However, the people who have made the choice have also chosen to ONLY receive communication from customers via this forum. So they have also put you in the unfortunate position of bearing the brunt of their decisions. If you would prefer that our collective outrage directed at the people who do make the decisions, I am sure that we are happy to communicate with them directly.
If Dndbeyond wants to stop antagonizing your clients, then you (collectively) need to stop making apologies or excuses. You need to open up with more transparency, or at least be clear about WHY you are not being transparent.
So, the acknowledgement is appreciated but it is a far cry from an acceptable response or a reasonable or fair business practice.
It's worth noting:
1. Effectively, DDB is a franchisee, they pay WotC for the ability to use the D&D IP and sell digital content on their behalf.
2. Franchise controls and restrictions are generally ridiculous. My old manager went to be an auditor for our company that checked on the franchises, and he told me the hoops that the franchises have to jump through - it was ridiculous. Everything had to be done a certain way (and I mean everything), even things that had no logic behind it beyond "we can tell you how to do it, therefore we will". If they don't obey, they lose the franchise.
3. WotC tells DDB to jump, DDB asks how high.
4. Whatever DDB says will be discussed and approved by WotC. If DDB says something, you can be pretty confident that WotC approved it. Conversely, if DDB doesn't say anything, WotC at least approved of that too, if not mandate it. There may be times when DDB has done otherwise, but I also guarantee that they also got a slap on the wrist for it.
5. DDB are the ones catching the heat over this, including people like Davyd who, to be frank, doesn't deserve it. WotC are calling the shots on this, but they're not the ones catching the heat on it. That's a problem - they're the ones who need to make a decision, but we're not pressuring them. We need to be looking at WotC rather than DDB per se. If WotC wants this resolved, it will be within minutes. The danger is if WotC are on the proconsumer side of this, if they cave then...yeah.
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
I can't wait for the Dev Update to get cancelled within 30 minutes this week.
It's important to note that Joe and Mellie do their upmost to keep the dev update on each week and only cancel due to scheduling conflicts (both Joe and Mellie have a lot of responsibilities outside of the dev update) or unforeseen circumstances. And if the dev update is cancelled, Mellie tries to announce this as soon as possible.
No, it's important to note that in the month of Jan, we are 0/2 for Dev Updates. Whenit is cancelled, there is a twitter post 30 minutes prior.
Thanks for the ongoing discussion and the questions being raised here. I can understand the frustration some of you are feeling about not knowing precisely how this title is going to be implemented on D&D Beyond, or how (if at all) it will impact existing material. I can also understand how in the face of that 'not knowing' that it's tempting to roll some Investigation and Insight checks to try and figure it out yourself. I can't fault anyone for it, since I've definitely done it myself for things I love, too.
Currently I (and the rest of the folks here at DDB, including our hard-working moderation team) can't speak to the exact details and answers you're seeking--I know that's not a satisfying response, but it's all I can offer just at this moment. Rest assured we are working closely with our partners at Wizards of the Coast to align our goals for you as our community and userbase, and their expectations for this exciting new product that they're preparing to launch. As we reach a point where we're confident about all of the details and certain about what we can reveal in advance of the product's launch, we will absolutely share it with you all here, in our article content, on our social media channels, and on our video content.
Again, I know that "more information is coming" is hardly a satisfying answer, but I hope you'll grant us the patience to make sure that those details are just right both for our partners at WOTC, and for you all right here on DDB.
Thank you for this answer. In response, I'd like to request that any monster whose stat block is updated in Monsters of the Multiverse be retained on the site in its original form as well as the new Multiverse form for the benefit of DMs who own Volo's and/or Mordenkainen's in print editions and need their DDB content to match up for gameplay reasons. It's one thing to buy DDB content that duplicates material we already have in print—we've been (mostly) happily doing that for a long time now. It's another to have DDB content change in such a way that it can't be used with the print material we already own, for reasons beyond simple errata.
Also, being able to compare old and new versions side by side onscreen would actually be a really useful tool.
I believe you will get your wish. On the flip side, I believe you will have to stump up money for the new book.
Me, like countless others, have bought in to DDB's mantra of "you'll always be using the latest version as we update it automatically"
I believe DDB, with support from WotC, will categorise the new book as "new content" as opposed to "errata" and therefore be able to charge for it. Any other option involves both DDB and WotC taking less money. Which path do you think they will take - more money or less money?
DDB doesn't want to be the bad guy here and I feel for them. They want WotC to give them something in print to say it's "new content" so that they can relay this to their customers, blaming WotC for having to charge for what is essentially 'errata'.
Several YouTubers and news outlets have pointed out recently the fragility of what we are purchasing on DDB and it's really made me think about it for sure. If they do go back on their "updated always" approach, it will change a lot of people's opinions on where they spend their hard earned cash.
DDB has a versioning system for homebrew content. You literally can't make any changes to update your published homebrew without creating a new version. Overwriting your homebrew to remove access to the previous version(s) is literally impossible right now.
So they certainly are capable of having versioned official content. It's just a question of what WotC policy is going to be. DDB is stuck between a rock and a hard place. People don't want to pay for content they already own, but also people want to keep access to the previously published version as well.
Honestly, if it was my decision? I would keep official content that has had a published update versioned as well. Errata are fine to push as an overwrite, but if later content supersedes previously published content, both should be available. Yes, this means you are potentially paying for (almost) the same content twice. But it is the policy the most closely mirrors what happens with a paper book, and that's a part of what DDB is to me.
Now from a wallet perspective, sure it would be great if we got the updated content for free. But from a functionality perspective I think versioned official content is the way to go. Of course, DDB could always offer discounts on M3 if you already own VgtM/MtoF but I'm assuming that would have to be approved by WotC and that seems very unlikely.
I don't see them cancelling pre-orders/refunding people if they have the previously published content.
I think there will definitely be multiple versions on the site, and they will have to start putting annotations with book sources next to them when you are scrolling through the game rules section. Stat blocks already have a notation of their source below their name when searching for them. They will be making new stat blocks for all reworked monsters anyway, so why not when you search for Thri-kreen instead of the three (main & two variants) a fourth is also listed from MotM?
It would justify itself as a separate product.
EDIT: However, obviously - no one should purchase anything without knowing with certainty what they are buying.
I'm glad we finally got an update from DDB, even if it was just "We don't have an update, check back later". That said, it feels really dishonest to let me buy MMM right now. I literally own all of the content available on the site, and planned to keep buying new content here. I cannot do that in good faith if I have no idea if MMM will be a waste of money for me or not. It feels like a sketchy business practice at best. As much as I love being able to use DDB to content share and allow my players to build characters easily, I'm probably going to cancel my subscription until DDB can be transparent about what they're selling to people.
I think all the hate toward DDB is misplaced. They just sell what WotC lets them sell and are only allowed to say what they are approved to say. Regarding the content of the new book, between Nerd Immersion and Bob World Builder on YouTube and the efforts of a few Redditors, all the information about what is contained in the book is out there. The book will have all the monsters from VGtM and MToF sans the orcs plus one new dolphin variant that is most likely just a mount for tritons or something. Regarding the updated races, there's a detailed compiled list of all the changes on Reddit and I already started to easily homebrew the new versions on here, and I am an idiot when it comes to the homebrew tools. Fantasy Grounds announced that they will not be updating the old books and if you want the new versions of the races/monsters M3 will need to be purchased so I expect the same policy to happen here, once WotC allows DDB to say so. Whether or not this book is worth buying will depend on what you're looking to get out of it, really. If you own Volo's and the Tome already and are happy with the monster stat blocks this is probably not the product for you. If your phone has limited space and you rely on the app, downloading one book instead of two plus a couple of supplements has value. If you don't own Volo's or Tome, buying M3 is more cost effective. For me personally, pre-ordering is no longer something I'm interested in since they exempted them from book sales so I will most likely be waiting for M3 to be $10 off before I decide if it's worth adding to the library or not. I definitely will be using the physical book in my in-person games to lighten the load of books I carry when I travel.
Edit: According to Jeremy Crawford the new dolphin variant will be a telepathic, teleporting fey.
The only acceptable outcome, in my opinion, is that the book offers new versions as options and not replacing what you have from previous books. This book is not an errata document, it's just an alternative option for the races and monsters.
I take issue with D&D Beyond changing what I have bought just because a later book (not errata) provided a new version. Especially because D&D Beyond do not state your purchased content is subject to change on reprints when purchasing.
There is no such message when buying books on here. The consumer expectation is what you buy - you can keep and use as is. Updates from the free errata documents are welcome because an errata is "we made an error, here is a fix". That's literally what errata is: "a list of collected errors". However, new books are not errata - they present new optional material and expanded lore.
--
WotC and D&D Beyond learned this lesson with the Eberron books. When Last War was announced it was detailed in interviews by WotC staff (notably JC) that there would be some updates to the Wayfinder content and a lot of new stuff, but Wayfinders would still hold a lot of its own content - the books were going to be designed to work together. Then for whatever reason, they changed their mind and Last War was basically just "Wayfinders with a little bit extra lore and a new subclass". The consumers got super pissed. Rightly so. And D&D Beyond was left stranded in hot water. Thankfully, they did allow customers to contact support and get a refund on Wayfinders if they had purchased Last War. So credit where it is due, there. It was not D&D Beyond's fault and took it on the chin.
The thing is Wayfinder was heralded as a "living document", unlike all other books D&D Beyond has been retailer to. It specifically had the message it could be changed later at any time.
We got no such advance warning with our current purchases - we are not made aware of any other books we buy on D&D Beyond being a living document or subject to change due to later "edited reprints in new books" or such as at any point in the purchase or in the books bought.
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It would be easier, simpler and better if D&D Beyond just made these as new options. Same way you can choose between a regular Tiefling or the SCAG Tiefling, or the regular Orc or the EGtW Orc. And so on.
Especially since the marketplace listing already says (with my own highlighting):
This purchase unlocks the contents of this source for use with D&D Beyond, including the book in digital format in the game compendium and access to options from the book in the searchable listings, character builder, and digital sheet.
Which means to use the contents of this book you have to make a purchase. If D&D beyond just gave it all for free by updating entries from other books (despite not being errata) they would be invalidating this statement making it misleading - which is not only horribly unethical, but would also potentially be illegal (it gets a bit iffy) and can easily lead to lawsuits (be they successful or not - it will still damage D&D beyond's [already declining] reputation) if D&D beyond refuses refunds.
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I find it very suspect (but not at all surprising) that D&D Beyond don't yet know what they're doing about this. There's only one way to go, really, and this is very much the sort of thing that WotC and D&D Beyond should have decided before agreeing to sell anything. As has been pointed out it's extremely bad faith and very shady to be taking money on pre-orders without even this very basic thing not yet decided despite months of notice. (Seriously, did nobody at D&D beyond just think of going "hey WotC, lets talk" at any point in those months? Why do your [also official toolset] competitors have this figured out [and going with the only sane 'just add as extra options' route] but you don't? Dafuq you been doin' all this time?).
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Existing VGtM/MToF races and monsters are updated to match the new book. If this happens, people's existing characters will also be updated. This is generally not how D&D Beyond has handled these updates thus far (re: Unearthed Arcana and Eberron).
Existing VGtM/MToF races and monsters are archived, and the new content is created from scratch. If this happens, they will also have to be assigned to the VGtM and MToF sources in addition to the new book to prevent purchases of those books from offering no sourcebook content. This is the most likely scenario, because it will prevent users' existing characters from being overwritten.
In either scenario, it will mean that the content that is assigned to VGtM/MToF are up-to-date and that the content in the new book is discounted based on previous purchases.
I guess a third option is that they just offer the new versions alongside the old versions. But I don't see that as likely, because the race options would then become very cluttered. But it is possible. At the very least, it would mean D&D Beyond isn't offering a bunch of free copies of the new book based on older purchases.
Definitely see the second option is likely, but I doubt they'd offer discounts - If its new content its going to be different and thus I do not see them opting to give discounts.
Existing VGtM/MToF races and monsters are updated to match the new book. If this happens, people's existing characters will also be updated. This is generally not how D&D Beyond has handled these updates thus far (re: Unearthed Arcana and Eberron).
Existing VGtM/MToF races and monsters are archived, and the new content is created from scratch. If this happens, they will also have to be assigned to the VGtM and MToF sources in addition to the new book to prevent purchases of those books from offering no sourcebook content. This is the most likely scenario, because it will prevent users' existing characters from being overwritten.
In either scenario, it will mean that the content that is assigned to VGtM/MToF are up-to-date and that the content in the new book is discounted based on previous purchases.
I guess a third option is that they just offer the new versions alongside the old versions. But I don't see that as likely, because the race options would then become very cluttered. But it is possible.
I would prefer it if they presented the new "updated" races alongside the existing races, because if the updated races are as gutted as recent official races have been, I don't even want them.
I think all the hate toward DDB is misplaced. They just sell what WotC lets them sell and are only allowed to say what they are approved to say. Regarding the content of the new book, between Nerd Immersion and Bob World Builder on YouTube and the efforts of a few Redditors, all the information about what is contained in the book is out there. The book will have all the monsters from VGtM and MToF sans the orcs plus one new dolphin variant that is most likely just a mount for tritons or something. Regarding the updated races, there's a detailed compiled list of all the changes on Reddit and I already started to easily homebrew the new versions on here, and I am an idiot when it comes to the homebrew tools. Fantasy Grounds announced that they will not be updating the old books and if you want the new versions of the races/monsters M3 will need to be purchased so I expect the same policy to happen here, once WotC allows DDB to say so. Whether or not this book is worth buying will depend on what you're looking to get out of it, really. If you own Volo's and the Tome already and are happy with the monster stat blocks this is probably not the product for you. If your phone has limited space and you rely on the app, downloading one book instead of two plus a couple of supplements has value. If you don't own Volo's or Tome, buying M3 is more cost effective. For me personally, pre-ordering is no longer something I'm interested in since they exempted them from book sales so I will most likely be waiting for M3 to be $10 off before I decide if it's worth adding to the library or not. I definitely will be using the physical book in my in-person games to lighten the load of books I carry when I travel.
The hate isn't because we don't know what's in the book. It's because, unlike Fantasy Grounds, DDB refuses to tell us if people with existing content will get the MMM content as updates or not. They're selling a product without telling us if we, the loyal fanbase, actually need it. That's shady. Like has been said elsewhere in this thread, players who don't follow as closely will be buying MMM expecting new content, because that is how it is marketed. Since DDB has not stated once if the other books will be updated to reflect MMM, it could be a huge waste of money for those people.
Best case scenario is that we have a sort of “Orc of Eberron” situation, where we have the old stats for player races, and the updated ones. I don’t feel confident that we will get this though.
Thanks for the ongoing discussion and the questions being raised here. I can understand the frustration some of you are feeling about not knowing precisely how this title is going to be implemented on D&D Beyond, or how (if at all) it will impact existing material. I can also understand how in the face of that 'not knowing' that it's tempting to roll some Investigation and Insight checks to try and figure it out yourself. I can't fault anyone for it, since I've definitely done it myself for things I love, too.
Currently I (and the rest of the folks here at DDB, including our hard-working moderation team) can't speak to the exact details and answers you're seeking--I know that's not a satisfying response, but it's all I can offer just at this moment. Rest assured we are working closely with our partners at Wizards of the Coast to align our goals for you as our community and userbase, and their expectations for this exciting new product that they're preparing to launch. As we reach a point where we're confident about all of the details and certain about what we can reveal in advance of the product's launch, we will absolutely share it with you all here, in our article content, on our social media channels, and on our video content.
Again, I know that "more information is coming" is hardly a satisfying answer, but I hope you'll grant us the patience to make sure that those details are just right both for our partners at WOTC, and for you all right here on DDB.
With respect Mellie the fact that it took this amount of discussion (across multiple platforms mind you) for an official response from the Community Manager does not bode well for issues brought up with this topic and DDB ongoing communication issues.
Prior to this post your last post on the forums was over a month ago (Dec. 8th to be precise). One small post before that (Dec. 3rd) and before that......October 14th.
Your last post on the Discord was Dec. 17th....so about a month ago.
I feel as if the community relies heavily on the generous time that Dayvid and other moderators put into both the forum and the discord to keep things going.
Looking at the content put on Instagram and Twitter there is quite a bit more activity there...but none of it is around communication/engagement of the community on how to better handle communication around changes on the service itself.
I know that we may be the "vocal minority" but I would also guess that several or most of us are also your biggest consumers in terms of total investment into the product.
While I enjoy things like "describe your favorite hero in emotes" in content I also enjoy discourse around the product and transparency around decisions made on the platform.
Cancelling of Dev Talks, lack of engagement from staff in forums and Discord, and lack of information sharing on pretty much any social platform just isn't my idea of good community management.
I do not mean to cause strife or intend to shame anyone...but I do have to express my dissatisfaction of how DDB has handled this issue and issues in the recent past including the lack of transparency around what exactly is going to be supported day 0 with products.
Best case scenario is that we have a sort of “Orc of Eberron” situation, where we have the old stats for player races, and the updated ones. I don’t feel confident that we will get this though.
Feel confident. Any other approach would negate the need to buy the new book. DDB and WotC want your money! They just have to work out how they are to break the news of the change to their mantra of 'always updated to the latest version'.
Cyb3rM1nd, I hope I don't get dinged for unhelpful posting on this, and I'm not trying to sidetrack, but what kind of substantive evidence do you have about "D&D beyond's [already declining] reputation"? Honestly not trying to be a jerk, I'm genuinely curious, as I was unaware of this being the case. Thanks.
Cyb3rM1nd, I hope I don't get dinged for unhelpful posting on this, and I'm not trying to sidetrack, but what kind of substantive evidence do you have about "D&D beyond's [already declining] reputation"? Honestly not trying to be a jerk, I'm genuinely curious, as I was unaware of this being the case. Thanks.
I mean honestly I would agree with him. I can’t tell you hard evidence but as someone who was here since the first day I have seen a steady decline in the improvements of their product. Every book that has something new seems to take years (looking at you Theros gifts/boons). You can clearly see a significant change in how this company has portrayed themselves with product improvements from prior to being purchased by Fandom, to then being purchased by Fandom and also another change when Adam left. If you haven’t noticed this I’m not sure what to tell you.
Thanks for the response, and yes, I am aware of and agree with those points about the company itself, I was referring more to the user/reputation side of things. I see frustration posts somewhat regularly here, but "yeah, but I bought the books" newbies aside, it seems like those posts are often the same (relatively small) group of people. I'll end with this, I'm trying not to sidetrack with this discussion
Thanks for the response, and yes, I am aware of and agree with those points about the company itself, I was referring more to the user/reputation side of things. I see frustration posts somewhat regularly here, but "yeah, but I bought the books" newbies aside, it seems like those posts are often the same (relatively small) group of people. I'll end with this, I'm trying not to sidetrack with this discussion
I feel like your points ARE the discussion though. This thread was started to point out the frustration that we the users are feeling with DDB. The lack of communication about what's happening plus the seeming lack of new support for things including MMM is where most of our complaints seem to come from.
They generally do not update the content of the books until WotC issues errata for them when the next printing is about to happen, so again the onus is on WotC to provide direction to DDB. As for expecting new content, the description on the preorder page explains that it contains updated races and creatures from older material, so the "new" part is the rebalancing. I doubt VGtM or MToF will be updated unless WotC decides that they need to match what is in M3 and I do not expect DDB to have any information until then. And, as I mentioned before Fantasy Grounds has stated that they will not be syncing the new versions with the old books, so if you want to see the revamped versions you will most likely have to buy it on here anyway. They are selling a product telling us exactly what WotC wants them to tell us about it, which they have to do. If you want to call someone shady, it's WotC not DDB. If someone pre-orders something without closely following what's being discussed about it, well buyer beware. The only reason benefit to pre-order anything on here is if you want the dice skins and sheet cosmetics anyway. They took away the option of pre-ordering them on sale.
It's worth noting:
1. Effectively, DDB is a franchisee, they pay WotC for the ability to use the D&D IP and sell digital content on their behalf.
2. Franchise controls and restrictions are generally ridiculous. My old manager went to be an auditor for our company that checked on the franchises, and he told me the hoops that the franchises have to jump through - it was ridiculous. Everything had to be done a certain way (and I mean everything), even things that had no logic behind it beyond "we can tell you how to do it, therefore we will". If they don't obey, they lose the franchise.
3. WotC tells DDB to jump, DDB asks how high.
4. Whatever DDB says will be discussed and approved by WotC. If DDB says something, you can be pretty confident that WotC approved it. Conversely, if DDB doesn't say anything, WotC at least approved of that too, if not mandate it. There may be times when DDB has done otherwise, but I also guarantee that they also got a slap on the wrist for it.
5. DDB are the ones catching the heat over this, including people like Davyd who, to be frank, doesn't deserve it. WotC are calling the shots on this, but they're not the ones catching the heat on it. That's a problem - they're the ones who need to make a decision, but we're not pressuring them. We need to be looking at WotC rather than DDB per se. If WotC wants this resolved, it will be within minutes. The danger is if WotC are on the proconsumer side of this, if they cave then...yeah.
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
The January 13th update was announced as cancelled 30 minutes before, but the January 6th update was announced 1 hour and 30 minutes before. Like I said, every effort is made to announce any cancelled dev update as soon as possible.
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I believe you will get your wish. On the flip side, I believe you will have to stump up money for the new book.
Me, like countless others, have bought in to DDB's mantra of "you'll always be using the latest version as we update it automatically"
I believe DDB, with support from WotC, will categorise the new book as "new content" as opposed to "errata" and therefore be able to charge for it. Any other option involves both DDB and WotC taking less money. Which path do you think they will take - more money or less money?
DDB doesn't want to be the bad guy here and I feel for them. They want WotC to give them something in print to say it's "new content" so that they can relay this to their customers, blaming WotC for having to charge for what is essentially 'errata'.
Several YouTubers and news outlets have pointed out recently the fragility of what we are purchasing on DDB and it's really made me think about it for sure. If they do go back on their "updated always" approach, it will change a lot of people's opinions on where they spend their hard earned cash.
DDB has a versioning system for homebrew content. You literally can't make any changes to update your published homebrew without creating a new version. Overwriting your homebrew to remove access to the previous version(s) is literally impossible right now.
So they certainly are capable of having versioned official content. It's just a question of what WotC policy is going to be. DDB is stuck between a rock and a hard place. People don't want to pay for content they already own, but also people want to keep access to the previously published version as well.
Honestly, if it was my decision? I would keep official content that has had a published update versioned as well. Errata are fine to push as an overwrite, but if later content supersedes previously published content, both should be available. Yes, this means you are potentially paying for (almost) the same content twice. But it is the policy the most closely mirrors what happens with a paper book, and that's a part of what DDB is to me.
Now from a wallet perspective, sure it would be great if we got the updated content for free. But from a functionality perspective I think versioned official content is the way to go. Of course, DDB could always offer discounts on M3 if you already own VgtM/MtoF but I'm assuming that would have to be approved by WotC and that seems very unlikely.
I don't see them cancelling pre-orders/refunding people if they have the previously published content.
I think there will definitely be multiple versions on the site, and they will have to start putting annotations with book sources next to them when you are scrolling through the game rules section. Stat blocks already have a notation of their source below their name when searching for them. They will be making new stat blocks for all reworked monsters anyway, so why not when you search for Thri-kreen instead of the three (main & two variants) a fourth is also listed from MotM?
It would justify itself as a separate product.
EDIT: However, obviously - no one should purchase anything without knowing with certainty what they are buying.
I'm glad we finally got an update from DDB, even if it was just "We don't have an update, check back later". That said, it feels really dishonest to let me buy MMM right now. I literally own all of the content available on the site, and planned to keep buying new content here. I cannot do that in good faith if I have no idea if MMM will be a waste of money for me or not. It feels like a sketchy business practice at best. As much as I love being able to use DDB to content share and allow my players to build characters easily, I'm probably going to cancel my subscription until DDB can be transparent about what they're selling to people.
I think all the hate toward DDB is misplaced. They just sell what WotC lets them sell and are only allowed to say what they are approved to say. Regarding the content of the new book, between Nerd Immersion and Bob World Builder on YouTube and the efforts of a few Redditors, all the information about what is contained in the book is out there. The book will have all the monsters from VGtM and MToF sans the orcs plus one new dolphin variant that is most likely just a mount for tritons or something. Regarding the updated races, there's a detailed compiled list of all the changes on Reddit and I already started to easily homebrew the new versions on here, and I am an idiot when it comes to the homebrew tools. Fantasy Grounds announced that they will not be updating the old books and if you want the new versions of the races/monsters M3 will need to be purchased so I expect the same policy to happen here, once WotC allows DDB to say so. Whether or not this book is worth buying will depend on what you're looking to get out of it, really. If you own Volo's and the Tome already and are happy with the monster stat blocks this is probably not the product for you. If your phone has limited space and you rely on the app, downloading one book instead of two plus a couple of supplements has value. If you don't own Volo's or Tome, buying M3 is more cost effective. For me personally, pre-ordering is no longer something I'm interested in since they exempted them from book sales so I will most likely be waiting for M3 to be $10 off before I decide if it's worth adding to the library or not. I definitely will be using the physical book in my in-person games to lighten the load of books I carry when I travel.
Edit: According to Jeremy Crawford the new dolphin variant will be a telepathic, teleporting fey.
The only acceptable outcome, in my opinion, is that the book offers new versions as options and not replacing what you have from previous books. This book is not an errata document, it's just an alternative option for the races and monsters.
I take issue with D&D Beyond changing what I have bought just because a later book (not errata) provided a new version. Especially because D&D Beyond do not state your purchased content is subject to change on reprints when purchasing.
There is no such message when buying books on here. The consumer expectation is what you buy - you can keep and use as is. Updates from the free errata documents are welcome because an errata is "we made an error, here is a fix". That's literally what errata is: "a list of collected errors". However, new books are not errata - they present new optional material and expanded lore.
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WotC and D&D Beyond learned this lesson with the Eberron books. When Last War was announced it was detailed in interviews by WotC staff (notably JC) that there would be some updates to the Wayfinder content and a lot of new stuff, but Wayfinders would still hold a lot of its own content - the books were going to be designed to work together. Then for whatever reason, they changed their mind and Last War was basically just "Wayfinders with a little bit extra lore and a new subclass". The consumers got super pissed. Rightly so. And D&D Beyond was left stranded in hot water. Thankfully, they did allow customers to contact support and get a refund on Wayfinders if they had purchased Last War. So credit where it is due, there. It was not D&D Beyond's fault and took it on the chin.
The thing is Wayfinder was heralded as a "living document", unlike all other books D&D Beyond has been retailer to. It specifically had the message it could be changed later at any time.
We got no such advance warning with our current purchases - we are not made aware of any other books we buy on D&D Beyond being a living document or subject to change due to later "edited reprints in new books" or such as at any point in the purchase or in the books bought.
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It would be easier, simpler and better if D&D Beyond just made these as new options. Same way you can choose between a regular Tiefling or the SCAG Tiefling, or the regular Orc or the EGtW Orc. And so on.
Especially since the marketplace listing already says (with my own highlighting):
Which means to use the contents of this book you have to make a purchase. If D&D beyond just gave it all for free by updating entries from other books (despite not being errata) they would be invalidating this statement making it misleading - which is not only horribly unethical, but would also potentially be illegal (it gets a bit iffy) and can easily lead to lawsuits (be they successful or not - it will still damage D&D beyond's [already declining] reputation) if D&D beyond refuses refunds.
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I find it very suspect (but not at all surprising) that D&D Beyond don't yet know what they're doing about this. There's only one way to go, really, and this is very much the sort of thing that WotC and D&D Beyond should have decided before agreeing to sell anything. As has been pointed out it's extremely bad faith and very shady to be taking money on pre-orders without even this very basic thing not yet decided despite months of notice. (Seriously, did nobody at D&D beyond just think of going "hey WotC, lets talk" at any point in those months? Why do your [also official toolset] competitors have this figured out [and going with the only sane 'just add as extra options' route] but you don't? Dafuq you been doin' all this time?).
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There are two likely scenarios here:
In either scenario, it will mean that the content that is assigned to VGtM/MToF are up-to-date and that the content in the new book is discounted based on previous purchases.
I guess a third option is that they just offer the new versions alongside the old versions. But I don't see that as likely, because the race options would then become very cluttered. But it is possible. At the very least, it would mean D&D Beyond isn't offering a bunch of free copies of the new book based on older purchases.
Definitely see the second option is likely, but I doubt they'd offer discounts - If its new content its going to be different and thus I do not see them opting to give discounts.
I would prefer it if they presented the new "updated" races alongside the existing races, because if the updated races are as gutted as recent official races have been, I don't even want them.
I am also here.
Am snek.
The hate isn't because we don't know what's in the book. It's because, unlike Fantasy Grounds, DDB refuses to tell us if people with existing content will get the MMM content as updates or not. They're selling a product without telling us if we, the loyal fanbase, actually need it. That's shady. Like has been said elsewhere in this thread, players who don't follow as closely will be buying MMM expecting new content, because that is how it is marketed. Since DDB has not stated once if the other books will be updated to reflect MMM, it could be a huge waste of money for those people.
Best case scenario is that we have a sort of “Orc of Eberron” situation, where we have the old stats for player races, and the updated ones. I don’t feel confident that we will get this though.
With respect Mellie the fact that it took this amount of discussion (across multiple platforms mind you) for an official response from the Community Manager does not bode well for issues brought up with this topic and DDB ongoing communication issues.
Prior to this post your last post on the forums was over a month ago (Dec. 8th to be precise). One small post before that (Dec. 3rd) and before that......October 14th.
Your last post on the Discord was Dec. 17th....so about a month ago.
I feel as if the community relies heavily on the generous time that Dayvid and other moderators put into both the forum and the discord to keep things going.
Looking at the content put on Instagram and Twitter there is quite a bit more activity there...but none of it is around communication/engagement of the community on how to better handle communication around changes on the service itself.
I know that we may be the "vocal minority" but I would also guess that several or most of us are also your biggest consumers in terms of total investment into the product.
While I enjoy things like "describe your favorite hero in emotes" in content I also enjoy discourse around the product and transparency around decisions made on the platform.
Cancelling of Dev Talks, lack of engagement from staff in forums and Discord, and lack of information sharing on pretty much any social platform just isn't my idea of good community management.
I do not mean to cause strife or intend to shame anyone...but I do have to express my dissatisfaction of how DDB has handled this issue and issues in the recent past including the lack of transparency around what exactly is going to be supported day 0 with products.
Thanks for your time!
Feel confident. Any other approach would negate the need to buy the new book. DDB and WotC want your money! They just have to work out how they are to break the news of the change to their mantra of 'always updated to the latest version'.
Cyb3rM1nd,
I hope I don't get dinged for unhelpful posting on this, and I'm not trying to sidetrack, but what kind of substantive evidence do you have about "D&D beyond's [already declining] reputation"? Honestly not trying to be a jerk, I'm genuinely curious, as I was unaware of this being the case. Thanks.
I mean honestly I would agree with him. I can’t tell you hard evidence but as someone who was here since the first day I have seen a steady decline in the improvements of their product. Every book that has something new seems to take years (looking at you Theros gifts/boons). You can clearly see a significant change in how this company has portrayed themselves with product improvements from prior to being purchased by Fandom, to then being purchased by Fandom and also another change when Adam left. If you haven’t noticed this I’m not sure what to tell you.
Thanks for the response, and yes, I am aware of and agree with those points about the company itself, I was referring more to the user/reputation side of things. I see frustration posts somewhat regularly here, but "yeah, but I bought the books" newbies aside, it seems like those posts are often the same (relatively small) group of people. I'll end with this, I'm trying not to sidetrack with this discussion
I feel like your points ARE the discussion though. This thread was started to point out the frustration that we the users are feeling with DDB. The lack of communication about what's happening plus the seeming lack of new support for things including MMM is where most of our complaints seem to come from.
They generally do not update the content of the books until WotC issues errata for them when the next printing is about to happen, so again the onus is on WotC to provide direction to DDB. As for expecting new content, the description on the preorder page explains that it contains updated races and creatures from older material, so the "new" part is the rebalancing. I doubt VGtM or MToF will be updated unless WotC decides that they need to match what is in M3 and I do not expect DDB to have any information until then. And, as I mentioned before Fantasy Grounds has stated that they will not be syncing the new versions with the old books, so if you want to see the revamped versions you will most likely have to buy it on here anyway. They are selling a product telling us exactly what WotC wants them to tell us about it, which they have to do. If you want to call someone shady, it's WotC not DDB. If someone pre-orders something without closely following what's being discussed about it, well buyer beware. The only
reasonbenefit to pre-order anything on here is if you want the dice skins and sheet cosmetics anyway. They took away the option of pre-ordering them on sale.