And yet, I HAVE to. Because folks like Bard will tell me my character's not done, not real, until those two words are written down. And once they are? Nothing else matters. I could spend hours coming up with a perfectly concise-yet-rich backstory, perfectly blended QIBFs, a splendidly detailed HeroForge, and everything else. I could play that character to the nines, exert my all to make her engaging and rewarding to play with and DM for.
And per this thread, the only question anyone would ask is "what's her alignment?", and after forcing me to pick one of the four 'legal' alignments, everything else I've ever written disappears. Anything else I've ever done in-game disappears. Everything there ever was to that character just vanishes, on the spot, to be replaced by "[X]ish [Y] Character".
It's ****ing awful, I ****ing haye it, and I'll never stop hating it every single time someone insists it's the best/only way to play the game. It is no such god damned thing.
I get it, you don't like alignment, I don't find it personally useful either, but Bard's actual posts are nothing like the hyperbole in this post here.
Useful? No. Not to anyone with a clue, the only even halfway valid use case is Caerwyn's "I can't be bothered to learn D&D before I play it so just give me two words to care about" rankest-newbie thing. And even as I acknowledge that fine, the dramatic oversimplification helps there, I can hate the idea that someone professes to want to play the game but has absolutely no interest in learning anything about it first.
Quick? Three hundred and forty posts of bitter argument laughs at the idea. There is nothing "quick" about a DM punching a player in the face for daring to get alignment wrong, save for the speed at which that campaign ends.
It's barely even a reference. Ask any programmer what you can do with a two-bit system. The answer will be "basically nothing". You can't accomplish anything meaningful with only two bits to work with. Why do people in this game insist two bits are all you need to play the whole-ass game?
All computer systems are based one the byte. A two state system. either on or off. from this an 8 byte,16 byte, 32 byte, and now 64 byte systems are built. But the single on/off byte is the base.
And seriously people.
18 pages and not a single person has said they have changed their mind because of the logical arguments here. At least 15 of those pages have produced nothing new. In my opinion this thread should be shut down.
All computer systems are based one the byte. A two state system. either on or off. from this an 8 byte,16 byte, 32 byte, and now 64 byte systems are built. But the single on/off byte is the base.
If you're going to correct people, at least get it right. The on-off is the bit; a byte is 8 bits.
As far as alignment in CRPGs goes, well, pretty much every version I've seen is a simple tracking system of "You wanna do X? Okay, it will cost you Y alignment." Unless it's a system that doesn't do anything at all (for example, Solasta has an alignment system that doesn't do anything except determine which dialog lines you get).
All computer systems are based one the byte. A two state system. either on or off. from this an 8 byte,16 byte, 32 byte, and now 64 byte systems are built. But the single on/off byte is the base.
And seriously people.
18 pages and not a single person has said they have changed their mind because of the logical arguments here. At least 15 of those pages have produced nothing new. In my opinion this thread should be shut down.
My mind hasn't changed exactly. I still don't find alignment useful myself. But my attitude about it has changed a bit, going from 'it might as well be removed' to 'a number of people find it useful, even if I don't maybe it should still stick around as long as it isn't enforced in class abilities etc and supplemented by the ideals/bonds/flaws etc.'
Useful? No. Not to anyone with a clue, the only even halfway valid use case is Caerwyn's "I can't be bothered to learn D&D before I play it so just give me two words to care about" rankest-newbie thing. And even as I acknowledge that fine, the dramatic oversimplification helps there, I can hate the idea that someone professes to want to play the game but has absolutely no interest in learning anything about it first.
Quick? Three hundred and forty posts of bitter argument laughs at the idea. There is nothing "quick" about a DM punching a player in the face for daring to get alignment wrong, save for the speed at which that campaign ends.
It's barely even a reference. Ask any programmer what you can do with a two-bit system. The answer will be "basically nothing". You can't accomplish anything meaningful with only two bits to work with. Why do people in this game insist two bits are all you need to play the whole-ass game?
Your whole argument is predicated off of the 1% of D&D DM's who force players to use alignment when they don't want to and view it as the know all be all soul arbiter of how your character behaves.
But no one on this thread is saying that. We're saying that alignment is a tool, and if you don't like it, you don''t have to use it.
There are over 50 million people who play the game. Of course there are going to be some people who turn a helpful tool into a way to ruin the game. But what about all the people who find alignment useful? Should it be removed just because a tiny amount of people use it wrong? Everything can be used badly, and it's not the alignment systems fault that one DM uses it as an excuse to try and torture their players.
If you play in a group or with a DM that does that, just leave the group. There are millions of other tables that don't use alignment in this absurd way.
I think alignment can help define a character. We can learn some details about them from their alignment. But as I explained to Yurei when he asked us to say every single thing about their character just by knowing their alignment, that's not how it works.
We can learn some details about a character based off their alignment, but some people on this thread are saying that if alignment doesn't tell you every single thing about a character, then clearly it must be useless. No tool does this: PTIBF's don't. One description of motives + methods doesn't.
I've been laying out all my reasoning in this thread as to why I think PIBF works well as a tool that gives sufficient guidelines to roleplay a character and why The Nine do not work very well and you haven't really been explaining yourself. Do you need me to lay out all my reasons again or do you have any sort of substantial response to them?
You can't learn everything about one human based off just one factor, so people please stop saying that if alignment doesn't do that, then alignment must be worthless.
Yeah my point had quite a bit more to it than that. Also I didn't say it was worthless, I said it is a waste of word count but you know all I'm doing is expressing my opinion and assessment of a gaming tool we've been given so if you want me to stop expressing my opinion then, all due respect 1) I don't have to, 2) I will not, and 3) stop asking.
Disagreeing with me is one thing, but telling me to stop expressing my opinion? Nope, not gonna.
I wasn't talking to you about that. You are actually making real arguments as opposed to a strawman one that I have had to address on almost every page on this thread. Thank you for that.
As for your point about me not explaining myself, I feel I've been pretty clear. Here is a post where I elaborate on one of my arguments, if you are still confused.
Alignment is, "How do you want to roleplay your character?".
No, in 5e, that's what Personality Traits/Ideals/Bonds/Flaws are for.
Alignment was originally intended to be which faction in a cosmic war between Law and Chaos you sided with (still a part of the game in the Blood War and rest of the Great Wheel Cosmology).
"How do you want to roleplay your character" is not a question that alignment can answer in a good way. It's just as good at defining who you are as Zodiac Signs and Myers-Briggs Personality Tests. Which is to say, it's very bad at telling your character who they are.
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Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Let's not revive this thread. We've had 18 pages and I think everything that needs to be said has been said.
Personally, I think alignment is a great tool to help you roleplay your character. That being said, alignment is not "how do you want to roleplay your character?" It's one tool that can help you answer that question.
You may dislike alignment and/or disagree with everything I say. Feel free to. But if you don't like it, you don't need to play with it. That being said, there are people who find it incredibly useful. And as long as there are some people like me who find it to be useful, it should remain, at least as an option, for them. Again, it won't hurt you if you don't use it, but there are people who need it, people who love it, and people who find it to be useful. Let's not take that helpful option away from them.
Anyways, debating this is completely pointless and everything that needs to be said, such as several of the things I've said above, have already been said on repeat. This thread was dead for a reason, let's keep it that way.
Alignement is more like a moral compass for me. Character interaction is way more important, alignement shows only on what ethical norms are the decisions or behaviour of the character based in different situations. I have met evil characters making good decisions, because it was in their best interests, and good characters playing out dark paths to become saviours at the end. Still, restrictions based on alignement is something that only limits the players, so I only check this stat when something extremely unexpected happenes, that does not fit in the personality of the character. Everything is depending on the situation. Use this rule as flexible as possible. :)
How many times does it need to be stated in this thread that people should use alignment how much/little and however they want? There are groups who are in agreement with themselves, but that doesn't mean all other groups who hold different ideas and even individual outliers with something completely different than everyone else are wrong.
Work with it however you want, replace it with whatever you think is better, or just ignore it altogether.
The only real hitch that I can see is communication. Communicating among the table is tantamount to resolving all issues. The entire game is marbleized with communication. We cannot escape it during play and should also use it out of play. Discuss alignment with others at the table if it's a sticking point.
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Human. Male. Possibly. Don't be a divider. My characters' backgrounds are written like instruction manuals rather than stories. My opinion and preferences don't mean you're wrong. I am 99.7603% convinced that the digital dice are messing with me. I roll high when nobody's looking and low when anyone else can see.🎲 “It's a bit early to be thinking about an epitaph. No?” will be my epitaph.
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I get it, you don't like alignment, I don't find it personally useful either, but Bard's actual posts are nothing like the hyperbole in this post here.
Useful? No. Not to anyone with a clue, the only even halfway valid use case is Caerwyn's "I can't be bothered to learn D&D before I play it so just give me two words to care about" rankest-newbie thing. And even as I acknowledge that fine, the dramatic oversimplification helps there, I can hate the idea that someone professes to want to play the game but has absolutely no interest in learning anything about it first.
Quick? Three hundred and forty posts of bitter argument laughs at the idea. There is nothing "quick" about a DM punching a player in the face for daring to get alignment wrong, save for the speed at which that campaign ends.
It's barely even a reference. Ask any programmer what you can do with a two-bit system. The answer will be "basically nothing". You can't accomplish anything meaningful with only two bits to work with. Why do people in this game insist two bits are all you need to play the whole-ass game?
Please do not contact or message me.
All computer systems are based one the byte. A two state system. either on or off. from this an 8 byte,16 byte, 32 byte, and now 64 byte systems are built. But the single on/off byte is the base.
And seriously people.
18 pages and not a single person has said they have changed their mind because of the logical arguments here. At least 15 of those pages have produced nothing new. In my opinion this thread should be shut down.
If you're going to correct people, at least get it right. The on-off is the bit; a byte is 8 bits.
As far as alignment in CRPGs goes, well, pretty much every version I've seen is a simple tracking system of "You wanna do X? Okay, it will cost you Y alignment." Unless it's a system that doesn't do anything at all (for example, Solasta has an alignment system that doesn't do anything except determine which dialog lines you get).
My mind hasn't changed exactly. I still don't find alignment useful myself. But my attitude about it has changed a bit, going from 'it might as well be removed' to 'a number of people find it useful, even if I don't maybe it should still stick around as long as it isn't enforced in class abilities etc and supplemented by the ideals/bonds/flaws etc.'
Your whole argument is predicated off of the 1% of D&D DM's who force players to use alignment when they don't want to and view it as the know all be all soul arbiter of how your character behaves.
But no one on this thread is saying that. We're saying that alignment is a tool, and if you don't like it, you don''t have to use it.
There are over 50 million people who play the game. Of course there are going to be some people who turn a helpful tool into a way to ruin the game. But what about all the people who find alignment useful? Should it be removed just because a tiny amount of people use it wrong? Everything can be used badly, and it's not the alignment systems fault that one DM uses it as an excuse to try and torture their players.
If you play in a group or with a DM that does that, just leave the group. There are millions of other tables that don't use alignment in this absurd way.
I wasn't talking to you about that. You are actually making real arguments as opposed to a strawman one that I have had to address on almost every page on this thread. Thank you for that.
As for your point about me not explaining myself, I feel I've been pretty clear. Here is a post where I elaborate on one of my arguments, if you are still confused.
BoringBard's long and tedious posts somehow manage to enrapture audiences. How? Because he used Charm Person, the #1 bard spell!
He/him pronouns. Call me Bard. PROUD NERD!
Ever wanted to talk about your parties' worst mistakes? Do so HERE. What's your favorite class, why? Share & explain
HERE.Alignment is, "How do you want to roleplay your character?".
No, in 5e, that's what Personality Traits/Ideals/Bonds/Flaws are for.
Alignment was originally intended to be which faction in a cosmic war between Law and Chaos you sided with (still a part of the game in the Blood War and rest of the Great Wheel Cosmology).
"How do you want to roleplay your character" is not a question that alignment can answer in a good way. It's just as good at defining who you are as Zodiac Signs and Myers-Briggs Personality Tests. Which is to say, it's very bad at telling your character who they are.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
Let's not revive this thread. We've had 18 pages and I think everything that needs to be said has been said.
Personally, I think alignment is a great tool to help you roleplay your character. That being said, alignment is not "how do you want to roleplay your character?" It's one tool that can help you answer that question.
You may dislike alignment and/or disagree with everything I say. Feel free to. But if you don't like it, you don't need to play with it. That being said, there are people who find it incredibly useful. And as long as there are some people like me who find it to be useful, it should remain, at least as an option, for them. Again, it won't hurt you if you don't use it, but there are people who need it, people who love it, and people who find it to be useful. Let's not take that helpful option away from them.
Anyways, debating this is completely pointless and everything that needs to be said, such as several of the things I've said above, have already been said on repeat. This thread was dead for a reason, let's keep it that way.
BoringBard's long and tedious posts somehow manage to enrapture audiences. How? Because he used Charm Person, the #1 bard spell!
He/him pronouns. Call me Bard. PROUD NERD!
Ever wanted to talk about your parties' worst mistakes? Do so HERE. What's your favorite class, why? Share & explain
HERE.Alignement is more like a moral compass for me. Character interaction is way more important, alignement shows only on what ethical norms are the decisions or behaviour of the character based in different situations. I have met evil characters making good decisions, because it was in their best interests, and good characters playing out dark paths to become saviours at the end. Still, restrictions based on alignement is something that only limits the players, so I only check this stat when something extremely unexpected happenes, that does not fit in the personality of the character. Everything is depending on the situation. Use this rule as flexible as possible. :)
How many times does it need to be stated in this thread that people should use alignment how much/little and however they want? There are groups who are in agreement with themselves, but that doesn't mean all other groups who hold different ideas and even individual outliers with something completely different than everyone else are wrong.
Work with it however you want, replace it with whatever you think is better, or just ignore it altogether.
The only real hitch that I can see is communication. Communicating among the table is tantamount to resolving all issues. The entire game is marbleized with communication. We cannot escape it during play and should also use it out of play. Discuss alignment with others at the table if it's a sticking point.
Human. Male. Possibly. Don't be a divider.
My characters' backgrounds are written like instruction manuals rather than stories. My opinion and preferences don't mean you're wrong.
I am 99.7603% convinced that the digital dice are messing with me. I roll high when nobody's looking and low when anyone else can see.🎲
“It's a bit early to be thinking about an epitaph. No?” will be my epitaph.