A Swashbuckler who wants the Two-Weapon Fighting Style but doesn’t want to slow their Sneak Attack progression is one that comes to my mind.
Problem is... sneak attack isn't all that exciting. Taking 2 levels fighter (action surge), 3 levels fighter (+superiority dice), or 5 levels fighter (+extra attack) will easily get you more damage per round than you're sacrificing for sneak attack.
2 levels of Fighter costs 1d6 damage worth of Sneak Attack every turn (both yours & on Opportunity Attacks), and two levels of Rogue features for a second non-SA attack. I would rather have an extra d6 added to almost every hit than a single d8+Dexmod from a rapier once per short rest. Sneak Attack wins hands down in my estimation.
3 levels of fighter adds a handful of d8s per short rest but still at the cost of that d6 and now 3 levels of Rogue features. Since most campaigns end around 12th level that means sacrificing 2 ASIs and Reliable Talent. Sneak Attack still wins in my estimation.
5 levels of fighter means sacrificing 2d6 Sneak Attack damage, and (assuming a 12 level campaign) the first Rogue subclass feature you’ve gotten in a looong time. And as a Swashbuckler that means sacrificing Panache. While not a DPR booster, Panache is still a great feature. And all you gain from all of that sacrifice is an Extra Attack for (assuming rapier) 1d8+modifier per round and a backup-backup chance to not miss which you don’t even need since you’re T-WF…. 🤷♂️Meh.
And all of that also ends up delaying features like Uncanny Dodge, Expertise, and Evasion depending on when you take your Fighter levels on top of delaying that SA damage.
I’ll stick with straight rogue and take the feat instead. But you do you.
A Swashbuckler who wants the Two-Weapon Fighting Style but doesn’t want to slow their Sneak Attack progression is one that comes to my mind.
Problem is... sneak attack isn't all that exciting. Taking 2 levels fighter (action surge), 3 levels fighter (+superiority dice), or 5 levels fighter (+extra attack) will easily get you more damage per round than you're sacrificing for sneak attack.
So the original question was 1 lvl fighter vs 1 feat, meaning my math below is irrelevant to the original question.
That said if we expand the question to a significant multi class instead of a dip that math doesn't work out at 2nd and 3rd level. 5 levels of Fighter pulls ahead on damage (i am going to assume 1 hit per round for avg sneak attack damage for the sake of argument Rapier/shortsword with 20 DEX to make that more likely with 2 attacks, also assuming all fighter abilities hit , not factoring the chosen fighting style in since that should be the same between the two, offhand shouldn't actually impact the tradeoff since thats a bonus action attack not part of the action you get from action surge)
2 levels of fighter gives you 1 extra attack once per rest(so say d8+5 at 20 dex with a rapier avg 9.5 damage) while you loose 1d6 sneak attack from every round you hit(avg 3.5 per round) so you break even/do better with sneak progression if you hit on 3 rounds per short rest.
At 3rd lvl fighter you give up 2d6 every round you hit avg of 7 damage per round, for the 1 instance of d8+5 (9.5) damage and 4 instances of d8 damage (4.5 each for 18 using all 4 superiority dice on average) so fighter features will give 27.5 damage per short rest on average and sneak attack pulls ahead after 4 rounds that you hit per short rest.
At 5th level fighter, you give up 3d6 each round you hit for an average of 10.5 damage per round, A fighter gains the 27.5 + an additional 9.5 from the extra attack on action surge making 37 damage per short rest and the extra attack gives 9.5 a round. This is where i see the fighter levels pulling ahead of rogue sneak attack dice in multi-round combats if all we care about is damage and we don't care about the rogue class abilities being given up. The sneak dice would catch up, but it would take an unreasonable amount of rounds in most games ;) also you can throw this math out the window if the rogue is getting consistent AOO since then they would get sneak damage on their turn and on the Opportunity Attack since that would be their opponents turn.
Hopefully i did that math all correctly, i'm sure someone will correct me if i didn't ;)
edit: Sposta beat me to the core of the tradeoff ;)
So, I was just thinking. The Fighting Initiate feat is basically the 1st level of fighter without most of the cool features. So why take it? Most, if not all classes, would benefit more from that single level of Fighter than from just a fighting style.
What I'm trying to tell you is that yes, it's more beneficial to have a level in Fighter, but it's also more costly. You don't just lose your level 20 features. You also get all your other features late.
To ask a version of the question that makes sense, try one of these:
"Any level of any class is basically the first level of Fighter without most of the Fighter stuff. So why take it? Most, if not all classes, would benefit more from a level of Fighter than from their own class."
"Fighting Initiate is basically any other feat without the benefits of those feats. So why take it? Most, if not all classes, would benefit more from a different feat than from Fighting Initiate."
Pick whichever one of those is closer to what you're trying to say, and then we can discuss it. Or maybe we won't need to, because the answer becomes obvious.
I’ll stick with straight rogue and take the feat instead. But you do you.
Okay, let's do a comparison. I'm going to actually assume a variant human, because otherwise all of this barely becomes relevant, you're not going to take two weapon fighting when you could take +2 Dex.
At level 1, I can take either Two Weapon Fighting Style or Dual Wielder.
Two Weapon Fighting Style gives me +3 damage per round (eventually up to +5)
Dual Wielder gives me +2 damage per round, +1 AC, and eliminates the chance of spending a round where I can't get an offhand attack because I'm switching weapons.
I'm going to assume Dual Wielder because otherwise this whole debate is pointless, V.Human can't grant you a fighter level. I'm also not going to do any multiclassing before I get my first ASI, and I'm going to assume a generic 70% hit chance and 5 rounds combat per short rest.
At level 4, I can either take +2 Dex or Two Weapon Fighting Style
+2 Dex gives me attack +6/2d8+4+2d6. Against AC 13, overall damage is 13*0.7 + 7*0.91 = 15.5
Two Weapon Fighting gives me attack +5/2d8+6+2d6. Against AC 13, overall damage is 15*0.65+7*0.877 = 15.9.
I'm pretty sure trading 0.4 dpr for +1 AC, +1 initiative, +1 Dex save, and +1 to a bunch of skills is a bad trade, so we'll go with +2 Dex.
At level 5, I can take +1 Rogue level or +1 Fighter level
+1 Fighter level gives +4 offhand damage and second wind (2.8 dpr). Also +1 hit point and the ability to use a longbow.
Looks pretty even. Rogue is maybe slightly better. Continuing down our path:
Rogue-6 gives expertise, which is nice though you probably got your key skills at lower level.
Fighter-2 gives action surge, which doesn't do a huge amount for you because you rarely miss anyway. At 5 rounds per short rest, that's 20% of an extra attack for 1d8+4, giving us 0.17 dpr.
Rogue-7 gives another die of sneak attack and evasion. Total dpr is now (2d8+4)*0.7 + (3d6)*0.91 = 18.66
Fighter-3 gives us Battle Master with Brace, Commanding Presence, and Precision Attack. We'll assume precision attack is giving us an 80% hit rate (only costs a hair over 1 die per short rest on average) and Brace is useful 20% of the time, which is probably an understatement (we are likely to have leftover dice with these assumptions). Total on-turn DPR is now (2d8+8)*0.8 + (2d6)*0.96 = 20.32, and Brace is adding another (2d8+4+2d6)*0.2*0.7 = 2.8, and action surge is adding (1d8+4)*0.2*0.8 = 1.36, for total 24.48.
Rogue-8 and Rogue-4/Fighter-4 are both giving us ASIs. That's 0.7 dpr for the rogue, 1.84 for the fighter (because more attacks)
Rogue-9 is now at (2d8+5)*0.7 + (4d6)*0.91 = 22.55. Also Panache, which is basically a superior version of Compelled Duel.
Rogue-4/Fighter-5 is now at (3d8+15)*0.8 + (2d6)*0.96 = 29.52 on-turn, plus 2.94 from brace, +3.04 from action surge, for total 35.48
Rogue-10 gets an ASI and takes two weapon fighting style, for +3.5 dpr = 26.05.
Rogue-5/Fighter-5 gets a die of sneak attack, for +3.36 dpr on-turn and +0.49 with brace = 39.33
Rogue-11 gets a die of sneak attack for +3.2 dpr = 29.25. Also his Reliable talent (relative worth of Reliable and Commanding Presence: ?)
Rogue-6/Fighter-5 gets his delayed Expertise. dpr remains 39.33.
Rogue-12 gets an ASI, which will be used to improve something secondary.
Rogue-7/Fighter-5 gets his delayed Evasion, and a die of sneak attack for 3.85 dpr = 43.18
As skill monkeys go, the pure rogue is likely a bit better (though commanding presence is definitely competitive), but if your ambition is killing people with swords, the multiclass is solidly better.
A ranger or paladin getting access to a couple of cantrips is fantastic.
A fighter getting both blind fighting and duelling is amazing when you have a darkness/devil sight warlock in the party.
Personal preference over total character optimisation such as taking both the thrown and archery fighting style (they do stack for some weapons).
There are loads of reasons why I might take it rather than multiclass. Bladesinger with defensive style for increased AC, or duelling to increase their blade damage. They aren’t optimal sure, but they can still be useful for someone who doesn’t want to play 💯 optimised builds. Otherwise every single pc in the game would be either a Chronurgy wizard or a Hexadin.
I’ll stick with straight rogue and take the feat instead. But you do you.
Okay, let's do a comparison. I'm going to actually assume a variant human, because otherwise all of this barely becomes relevant, you're not going to take two weapon fighting when you could take +2 Dex.
At level 1, I can take either Two Weapon Fighting Style or Dual Wielder.
Two Weapon Fighting Style gives me +3 damage per round (eventually up to +5)
Dual Wielder gives me +2 damage per round, +1 AC, and eliminates the chance of spending a round where I can't get an offhand attack because I'm switching weapons.
I'm going to assume Dual Wielder because otherwise this whole debate is pointless, V.Human can't grant you a fighter level. I'm also not going to do any multiclassing before I get my first ASI, and I'm going to assume a generic 70% hit chance and 5 rounds combat per short rest.
At level 4, I can either take +2 Dex or Two Weapon Fighting Style
+2 Dex gives me attack +6/2d8+4+2d6. Against AC 13, overall damage is 13*0.7 + 7*0.91 = 15.5
Two Weapon Fighting gives me attack +5/2d8+6+2d6. Against AC 13, overall damage is 15*0.65+7*0.877 = 15.9.
I'm pretty sure trading 0.4 dpr for +1 AC, +1 initiative, +1 Dex save, and +1 to a bunch of skills is a bad trade, so we'll go with +2 Dex.
At level 5, I can take +1 Rogue level or +1 Fighter level
+1 Fighter level gives +4 offhand damage and second wind (2.8 dpr). Also +1 hit point and the ability to use a longbow.
Looks pretty even. Rogue is maybe slightly better. Continuing down our path:
Rogue-6 gives expertise, which is nice though you probably got your key skills at lower level.
Fighter-2 gives action surge, which doesn't do a huge amount for you because you rarely miss anyway. At 5 rounds per short rest, that's 20% of an extra attack for 1d8+4, giving us 0.17 dpr.
Rogue-7 gives another die of sneak attack and evasion. Total dpr is now (2d8+4)*0.7 + (3d6)*0.91 = 18.66
Fighter-3 gives us Battle Master with Brace, Commanding Presence, and Precision Attack. We'll assume precision attack is giving us an 80% hit rate (only costs a hair over 1 die per short rest on average) and Brace is useful 20% of the time, which is probably an understatement (we are likely to have leftover dice with these assumptions). Total on-turn DPR is now (2d8+8)*0.8 + (2d6)*0.96 = 20.32, and Brace is adding another (2d8+4+2d6)*0.2*0.7 = 2.8, and action surge is adding (1d8+4)*0.2*0.8 = 1.36, for total 24.48.
Rogue-8 and Rogue-4/Fighter-4 are both giving us ASIs. That's 0.7 dpr for the rogue, 1.84 for the fighter (because more attacks)
Rogue-9 is now at (2d8+5)*0.7 + (4d6)*0.91 = 22.55. Also Panache, which is basically a superior version of Compelled Duel.
Rogue-4/Fighter-5 is now at (3d8+15)*0.8 + (2d6)*0.96 = 29.52 on-turn, plus 2.94 from brace, +3.04 from action surge, for total 35.48
Rogue-10 gets an ASI and takes two weapon fighting style, for +3.5 dpr = 26.05.
Rogue-5/Fighter-5 gets a die of sneak attack, for +3.36 dpr on-turn and +0.49 with brace = 39.33
Rogue-11 gets a die of sneak attack for +3.2 dpr = 29.25. Also his Reliable talent (relative worth of Reliable and Commanding Presence: ?)
Rogue-6/Fighter-5 gets his delayed Expertise. dpr remains 39.33.
Rogue-12 gets an ASI, which will be used to improve something secondary.
Rogue-7/Fighter-5 gets his delayed Evasion, and a die of sneak attack for 3.85 dpr = 43.18
As skill monkeys go, the pure rogue is likely a bit better (though commanding presence is definitely competitive), but if your ambition is killing people with swords, the multiclass is solidly better.
In particular, a Druid playing Tank wants Interception or Protection
Wild Shape can't use either one (both require a shield). Do people use spore druids for tanking?
I ain’t even gonna lie, my eye glazed over less than halfway through your lecture. I got through most of it through sheer determination, but it wasn’t easy my friend (especially after my abacus broke and I was down to my fingers and toes). But what I can tell you is that your math has a fatal flaw in it. You keep talking about how much DPR the fighter can do in one turn, but they can only maintain that pace for a fight and a half at most, if they only use one Superiority Die per turn, and that Action Surge number is only good for one of those turns. Do me a favor (since my abacus broke) and math that out over 6-8 (average of 7) fights per adventuring day, each fight lasting 3.5 rounds (average combat length) for the whole 22.5 rounds of combat. I’ll even agree to assume 2 perfectly timed short rests in there. What’s the per turn average the fighter can realistically expect to maintain over that whole adventuring day? Is it still higher than 39.33, or is it only on par at best? Riddle me that Mathman. 🦹♂️
I ain’t even gonna lie, my eye glazed over less than halfway through your lecture. I got through most of it through sheer determination, but it wasn’t easy my friend (especially after my abacus broke and I was down to my fingers and toes). But what I can tell you is that your math has a fatal flaw in it. You keep talking about how much DPR the fighter can do in one turn, but they can only maintain that pace for a fight and a half at most, if they only use one Superiority Die per turn
The average rate of spending superiority dice there is 0.4 per turn (0.5 once extra attack comes on line), and I was assuming a total of 5 rounds of combat between short rests (which is probably longer than the real duration of fights that add up to 1/3 of an adventuring day of xp). There's enough slop in there that it's unlikely to run out in 7 rounds, though the limitations on action surge do reduce the dpr contribution of action surge from 3 to 2. Also, the target to beat is 29.25, not 39.33.
Honestly, most of this is because I'm swapping levels in a class that's bad at fighting for levels in a class that's good at fighting.
What if you don't have the requisite 13 Strength or Dexterity to multiclass into fighter, but you want a fighting style? A tortle hexblade, for example, can dump both stats and will benefit from a fighting style.
I ain’t even gonna lie, my eye glazed over less than halfway through your lecture. I got through most of it through sheer determination, but it wasn’t easy my friend (especially after my abacus broke and I was down to my fingers and toes). But what I can tell you is that your math has a fatal flaw in it. You keep talking about how much DPR the fighter can do in one turn, but they can only maintain that pace for a fight and a half at most, if they only use one Superiority Die per turn
The average rate of spending superiority dice there is 0.4 per turn (0.5 once extra attack comes on line), and I was assuming a total of 5 rounds of combat between short rests (which is probably longer than the real duration of fights that add up to 1/3 of an adventuring day of xp). There's enough slop in there that it's unlikely to run out in 7 rounds, though the limitations on action surge do reduce the dpr contribution of action surge from 3 to 2. Also, the target to beat is 29.25, not 39.33.
Honestly, most of this is because I'm swapping levels in a class that's bad at fighting for levels in a class that's good at fighting.
My mistake on that 29.25, like I said I was getting glassy eyed at the end. Does that 29.25 include any % of Sneak Attack Opportunity Attacks?
Regardless, the question was what was better between 1 feat or 1 level of fighter. Right? You yourself said that at 2 levels of fighter the trade off was still in favor of the straight Rogue. You took it to 5 levels of fighter to outpace the benefit of a single feat. 5>1. 5≠1, 5>1. What’s better for that Swashbuckler, a single (1, 1=1) level of Fighter, or the feat.
Regardless, the question was what was better between 1 feat or 1 level of fighter. Right? You yourself said that at 2 levels of fighter the trade off was still in favor of the straight Rogue. You took it to 5 levels of fighter to outpace the benefit of a single feat. 5>1. 5≠1, 5>1. What’s better for that Swashbuckler, a single (1, 1=1) level of Fighter, or the feat.
Fighter pulls ahead starting at 3 levels. Taking 1-2 levels is mostly neutral (it neither significantly helps nor significantly hurts).
Regardless, the question was what was better between 1 feat or 1 level of fighter. Right? You yourself said that at 2 levels of fighter the trade off was still in favor of the straight Rogue. You took it to 5 levels of fighter to outpace the benefit of a single feat. 5>1. 5≠1, 5>1. What’s better for that Swashbuckler, a single (1, 1=1) level of Fighter, or the feat.
Fighter pulls ahead starting at 3 levels. Taking 1-2 levels is mostly neutral (it neither significantly helps nor significantly hurts).
Exactly, so my example stands that for a Swashbuckler Rogue, taking the Fighting Initiate feat is viable as opposed to a single level of Fighter.
It's perfectly practical to stack, say, Blind-Fighting, Defense, Dueling (or Great Weapon, or Two Weapon), and Protection. It's just kinda underwhelming.
Exactly, so my example stands that for a Swashbuckler Rogue, taking the Fighting Initiate feat is viable as opposed to a single level of Fighter.
Generally false. +1d6 damage every 2 levels is +1.75 damage per level, so Dueling or Archery are both themselves better than a Sneak Attack die. Comparing the other benefits of the Fighter level (assuming your first level was in Rogue: +1 hit point, second wind 1d10+1, and proficiency in martial weapons, medium armor, and shields) to a given Rogue level is going to be intrinsically arbitrary, but if we compare at, say, Rogue 19/Fighter 1 vs Rogue 20, it'll be pretty hard for Stroke of Luck to compete with all of that at once. That's a comparison of a Rogue level to a Fighter level, assuming that feats are intrinsically valuable - a statement that becomes more true over time, as WOTC manages to, through luck, release feats worth taking. It was at its least true when we only had the PHB.
But our example build here has 6 feats (with a seventh if they're a TCL or, for some reason, a variant human), and there are only so many feats in the game actually worth your time, especially if you're the wrong race for a good racial feat (in particular, Elven Accuracy). So long as it continues to be the case that eventually you run out of good feats, eventually you can spend the feats on anything you want, no matter how impractical, at which point it doesn't really matter how good or bad a feat is, you're only taking it for fun.
For most Swashbuckler builds I've seen there aren't any Fighting Styles worth obsessing about, so it's hard for me to assume a desired style and build for it. E.g. if I assume you're after Archery (and you're using probably Crossbow Expert to shoot people from 5 feet away, twice), the Fighter level will win from Hand Crossbow proficiency. Fighter also wins if you're gunning for Defense or Dueling, due to proficiency with Shields. TWF takes us in a deeply weird direction where you're clearly assuming you're using neither Panache nor Cunning Action ever, so I'd want to see the whole build to comment.
Generally false. +1d6 damage every 2 levels is +1.75 damage per level, so Dueling or Archery are both themselves better than a Sneak Attack die. Comparing the other benefits of the Fighter level
I did the math on that above. In the specific case of a two weapon fighting swashbuckler, it's not really a net advantage at less than 3 levels (archer setups benefit from access to martial ranged weapons, single weapon benefits from shields)
Anyone that thinks Rogue 7/Fighter 5 is a "good build for combat", does not know what they are talking about. The main problem is you are doing the wrong comparison.
A pure rogue is NOT a DPR character. Yes, they have some nice sneak attack, but it will never compete on damage. If you care about pure damage the comparison is not Rogue 7/Fighter 5 vs Rogue 12. Instead it is Rogue 7/Fighter 5 vs Fighter 12, and the Fighter wins hands down.
If you are picking Rogue, you want Skills, Social, and Stealth. That's why you take Rogue. They blow away a Fighter at these essential roles, and a Rogue 7/Fighter 5 will be FAR worse, not a little bit worse, FAR worse. They are giving up 3 feats, a subclass ability and Reliable talent.
Claiming that Rogue 7/Fighter 5 is better at combat is like saying that a SUV that you installed a Ferrari engine is a good race car. Everybody looks at your funny and wonders why you like this silly thing.
If you are picking Rogue, you want Skills, Social, and Stealth. That's why you take Rogue. They blow away a Fighter at these essential roles, and a Rogue 7/Fighter 5 will be FAR worse, not a little bit worse, FAR worse. They are giving up 3 feats, a subclass ability and Reliable talent.
Rogue-7/fighter-5 is behind by 2 ASIs (-3 from rogue, +1 from fighter), but we were assuming one ASI spent on fighting style, so behind by one (and if you're spending a feat on fighting style, you care about your ability to do damage). It loses Reliable talent and Panache, but gains Commanding Presence. That's not FAR worse, that's slightly worse at stealth and, depending how you interpret panache as compared to what persuasion can just do normally, somewhere between slightly better and slightly worse at social (Reliable talent is an average bonus of 2.25, commanding presence is +4.5).
Compared to the fighter-12, 4d6 of sneak attack is typically more damage than an extra attack, but other class features (and considerably more ASIs) might even things out.
Not every game allows multiclassing, and even in those that do, sometimes it's more beneficial to keep going on your main progression than to divert for a level. I've played an artificer/wizard to character level 12, and I can say that my one level of wizard has been tremendously helpful but also it's been agonizing at times to see what I could've had if I'd bitten the bullet and just gone straight artificer. That and some people simply don't like single-level multiclass dips for purely mechanical benefit with no narrative reason for it.
I've yet to see an actual game that doesn't allow multiclassing. Even less so, one that allows feats but not multiclassing. That said, the premise of the question obviously assumes both. But yes, as I mentioned, Artificer might be one of the few classes that might actually benefit from this feat.
I don't allow multiclassing in my games. In my opinion, it is a feature that only fuels Munchkin behaviour. I do allow feats because feats make for more interesting characters than ASI bonuses.
That said, I haven't seen any of your games either.
Not everything needs to be optimised to within an inch of their lives. Some people don’t have master’s degrees in math or physics and don’t care to spend hours calculating everything down to the last 0.00005 of a point of damage. Some people play for…. Shock horror…. Fun.
If a rogue's dex is already 20 (by whatever means, likely some combination of a good initial roll plus racial bonus, possibly plus ASI's or dex boosts from feats taken at earlier levels), can they even still benefit from a dex ASI? Thought they were limited by racial stat limits (usually 20)...
I'm assuming point buy, which means you'll need 2 ASIs to reach 20 unless you're doing custom lineage and take a half-feat.
2 levels of Fighter costs 1d6 damage worth of Sneak Attack every turn (both yours & on Opportunity Attacks), and two levels of Rogue features for a second non-SA attack. I would rather have an extra d6 added to almost every hit than a single d8+Dexmod from a rapier once per short rest. Sneak Attack wins hands down in my estimation.
3 levels of fighter adds a handful of d8s per short rest but still at the cost of that d6 and now 3 levels of Rogue features. Since most campaigns end around 12th level that means sacrificing 2 ASIs and Reliable Talent. Sneak Attack still wins in my estimation.
5 levels of fighter means sacrificing 2d6 Sneak Attack damage, and (assuming a 12 level campaign) the first Rogue subclass feature you’ve gotten in a looong time. And as a Swashbuckler that means sacrificing Panache. While not a DPR booster, Panache is still a great feature. And all you gain from all of that sacrifice is an Extra Attack for (assuming rapier) 1d8+modifier per round and a backup-backup chance to not miss which you don’t even need since you’re T-WF…. 🤷♂️Meh.
And all of that also ends up delaying features like Uncanny Dodge, Expertise, and Evasion depending on when you take your Fighter levels on top of delaying that SA damage.
I’ll stick with straight rogue and take the feat instead. But you do you.
Creating Epic Boons on DDB
DDB Buyers' Guide
Hardcovers, DDB & You
Content Troubleshooting
So the original question was 1 lvl fighter vs 1 feat, meaning my math below is irrelevant to the original question.
That said if we expand the question to a significant multi class instead of a dip that math doesn't work out at 2nd and 3rd level. 5 levels of Fighter pulls ahead on damage (i am going to assume 1 hit per round for avg sneak attack damage for the sake of argument Rapier/shortsword with 20 DEX to make that more likely with 2 attacks, also assuming all fighter abilities hit , not factoring the chosen fighting style in since that should be the same between the two, offhand shouldn't actually impact the tradeoff since thats a bonus action attack not part of the action you get from action surge)
2 levels of fighter gives you 1 extra attack once per rest(so say d8+5 at 20 dex with a rapier avg 9.5 damage) while you loose 1d6 sneak attack from every round you hit(avg 3.5 per round) so you break even/do better with sneak progression if you hit on 3 rounds per short rest.
At 3rd lvl fighter you give up 2d6 every round you hit avg of 7 damage per round, for the 1 instance of d8+5 (9.5) damage and 4 instances of d8 damage (4.5 each for 18 using all 4 superiority dice on average) so fighter features will give 27.5 damage per short rest on average and sneak attack pulls ahead after 4 rounds that you hit per short rest.
At 5th level fighter, you give up 3d6 each round you hit for an average of 10.5 damage per round, A fighter gains the 27.5 + an additional 9.5 from the extra attack on action surge making 37 damage per short rest and the extra attack gives 9.5 a round. This is where i see the fighter levels pulling ahead of rogue sneak attack dice in multi-round combats if all we care about is damage and we don't care about the rogue class abilities being given up. The sneak dice would catch up, but it would take an unreasonable amount of rounds in most games ;) also you can throw this math out the window if the rogue is getting consistent AOO since then they would get sneak damage on their turn and on the Opportunity Attack since that would be their opponents turn.
Hopefully i did that math all correctly, i'm sure someone will correct me if i didn't ;)
edit: Sposta beat me to the core of the tradeoff ;)
What I'm trying to tell you is that yes, it's more beneficial to have a level in Fighter, but it's also more costly. You don't just lose your level 20 features. You also get all your other features late.
To ask a version of the question that makes sense, try one of these:
"Any level of any class is basically the first level of Fighter without most of the Fighter stuff. So why take it? Most, if not all classes, would benefit more from a level of Fighter than from their own class."
"Fighting Initiate is basically any other feat without the benefits of those feats. So why take it? Most, if not all classes, would benefit more from a different feat than from Fighting Initiate."
Pick whichever one of those is closer to what you're trying to say, and then we can discuss it. Or maybe we won't need to, because the answer becomes obvious.
Levels are expensive, feats are cheap. Yes, for a feat you get less than a level. But you only get so much.
We mentioned primary casters, here are fighting styles that a Bard, Warlock, Cleric, or Druid might wish to have:
In particular, a Druid playing Tank wants Interception or Protection
Okay, let's do a comparison. I'm going to actually assume a variant human, because otherwise all of this barely becomes relevant, you're not going to take two weapon fighting when you could take +2 Dex.
At level 1, I can take either Two Weapon Fighting Style or Dual Wielder.
I'm going to assume Dual Wielder because otherwise this whole debate is pointless, V.Human can't grant you a fighter level. I'm also not going to do any multiclassing before I get my first ASI, and I'm going to assume a generic 70% hit chance and 5 rounds combat per short rest.
At level 4, I can either take +2 Dex or Two Weapon Fighting Style
I'm pretty sure trading 0.4 dpr for +1 AC, +1 initiative, +1 Dex save, and +1 to a bunch of skills is a bad trade, so we'll go with +2 Dex.
At level 5, I can take +1 Rogue level or +1 Fighter level
Looks pretty even. Rogue is maybe slightly better. Continuing down our path:
As skill monkeys go, the pure rogue is likely a bit better (though commanding presence is definitely competitive), but if your ambition is killing people with swords, the multiclass is solidly better.
Wild Shape can't use either one (both require a shield). Do people use spore druids for tanking?
A ranger or paladin getting access to a couple of cantrips is fantastic.
A fighter getting both blind fighting and duelling is amazing when you have a darkness/devil sight warlock in the party.
Personal preference over total character optimisation such as taking both the thrown and archery fighting style (they do stack for some weapons).
There are loads of reasons why I might take it rather than multiclass. Bladesinger with defensive style for increased AC, or duelling to increase their blade damage. They aren’t optimal sure, but they can still be useful for someone who doesn’t want to play 💯 optimised builds. Otherwise every single pc in the game would be either a Chronurgy wizard or a Hexadin.
I ain’t even gonna lie, my eye glazed over less than halfway through your lecture. I got through most of it through sheer determination, but it wasn’t easy my friend (especially after my abacus broke and I was down to my fingers and toes). But what I can tell you is that your math has a fatal flaw in it. You keep talking about how much DPR the fighter can do in one turn, but they can only maintain that pace for a fight and a half at most, if they only use one Superiority Die per turn, and that Action Surge number is only good for one of those turns. Do me a favor (since my abacus broke) and math that out over 6-8 (average of 7) fights per adventuring day, each fight lasting 3.5 rounds (average combat length) for the whole 22.5 rounds of combat. I’ll even agree to assume 2 perfectly timed short rests in there. What’s the per turn average the fighter can realistically expect to maintain over that whole adventuring day? Is it still higher than 39.33, or is it only on par at best? Riddle me that Mathman. 🦹♂️
Creating Epic Boons on DDB
DDB Buyers' Guide
Hardcovers, DDB & You
Content Troubleshooting
The average rate of spending superiority dice there is 0.4 per turn (0.5 once extra attack comes on line), and I was assuming a total of 5 rounds of combat between short rests (which is probably longer than the real duration of fights that add up to 1/3 of an adventuring day of xp). There's enough slop in there that it's unlikely to run out in 7 rounds, though the limitations on action surge do reduce the dpr contribution of action surge from 3 to 2. Also, the target to beat is 29.25, not 39.33.
Honestly, most of this is because I'm swapping levels in a class that's bad at fighting for levels in a class that's good at fighting.
What if you don't have the requisite 13 Strength or Dexterity to multiclass into fighter, but you want a fighting style? A tortle hexblade, for example, can dump both stats and will benefit from a fighting style.
I have a weird sense of humor.
I also make maps.(That's a link)
My mistake on that 29.25, like I said I was getting glassy eyed at the end. Does that 29.25 include any % of Sneak Attack Opportunity Attacks?
Regardless, the question was what was better between 1 feat or 1 level of fighter. Right? You yourself said that at 2 levels of fighter the trade off was still in favor of the straight Rogue. You took it to 5 levels of fighter to outpace the benefit of a single feat. 5>1. 5≠1, 5>1. What’s better for that Swashbuckler, a single (1, 1=1) level of Fighter, or the feat.
Creating Epic Boons on DDB
DDB Buyers' Guide
Hardcovers, DDB & You
Content Troubleshooting
Fighter pulls ahead starting at 3 levels. Taking 1-2 levels is mostly neutral (it neither significantly helps nor significantly hurts).
Exactly, so my example stands that for a Swashbuckler Rogue, taking the Fighting Initiate feat is viable as opposed to a single level of Fighter.
Creating Epic Boons on DDB
DDB Buyers' Guide
Hardcovers, DDB & You
Content Troubleshooting
Well, yes, exactly. That was my point.
Generally false. +1d6 damage every 2 levels is +1.75 damage per level, so Dueling or Archery are both themselves better than a Sneak Attack die. Comparing the other benefits of the Fighter level (assuming your first level was in Rogue: +1 hit point, second wind 1d10+1, and proficiency in martial weapons, medium armor, and shields) to a given Rogue level is going to be intrinsically arbitrary, but if we compare at, say, Rogue 19/Fighter 1 vs Rogue 20, it'll be pretty hard for Stroke of Luck to compete with all of that at once. That's a comparison of a Rogue level to a Fighter level, assuming that feats are intrinsically valuable - a statement that becomes more true over time, as WOTC manages to, through luck, release feats worth taking. It was at its least true when we only had the PHB.
But our example build here has 6 feats (with a seventh if they're a TCL or, for some reason, a variant human), and there are only so many feats in the game actually worth your time, especially if you're the wrong race for a good racial feat (in particular, Elven Accuracy). So long as it continues to be the case that eventually you run out of good feats, eventually you can spend the feats on anything you want, no matter how impractical, at which point it doesn't really matter how good or bad a feat is, you're only taking it for fun.
For most Swashbuckler builds I've seen there aren't any Fighting Styles worth obsessing about, so it's hard for me to assume a desired style and build for it. E.g. if I assume you're after Archery (and you're using probably Crossbow Expert to shoot people from 5 feet away, twice), the Fighter level will win from Hand Crossbow proficiency. Fighter also wins if you're gunning for Defense or Dueling, due to proficiency with Shields. TWF takes us in a deeply weird direction where you're clearly assuming you're using neither Panache nor Cunning Action ever, so I'd want to see the whole build to comment.
I did the math on that above. In the specific case of a two weapon fighting swashbuckler, it's not really a net advantage at less than 3 levels (archer setups benefit from access to martial ranged weapons, single weapon benefits from shields)
Anyone that thinks Rogue 7/Fighter 5 is a "good build for combat", does not know what they are talking about. The main problem is you are doing the wrong comparison.
A pure rogue is NOT a DPR character. Yes, they have some nice sneak attack, but it will never compete on damage. If you care about pure damage the comparison is not Rogue 7/Fighter 5 vs Rogue 12. Instead it is Rogue 7/Fighter 5 vs Fighter 12, and the Fighter wins hands down.
If you are picking Rogue, you want Skills, Social, and Stealth. That's why you take Rogue. They blow away a Fighter at these essential roles, and a Rogue 7/Fighter 5 will be FAR worse, not a little bit worse, FAR worse. They are giving up 3 feats, a subclass ability and Reliable talent.
Claiming that Rogue 7/Fighter 5 is better at combat is like saying that a SUV that you installed a Ferrari engine is a good race car. Everybody looks at your funny and wonders why you like this silly thing.
Rogue-7/fighter-5 is behind by 2 ASIs (-3 from rogue, +1 from fighter), but we were assuming one ASI spent on fighting style, so behind by one (and if you're spending a feat on fighting style, you care about your ability to do damage). It loses Reliable talent and Panache, but gains Commanding Presence. That's not FAR worse, that's slightly worse at stealth and, depending how you interpret panache as compared to what persuasion can just do normally, somewhere between slightly better and slightly worse at social (Reliable talent is an average bonus of 2.25, commanding presence is +4.5).
Compared to the fighter-12, 4d6 of sneak attack is typically more damage than an extra attack, but other class features (and considerably more ASIs) might even things out.
I don't allow multiclassing in my games. In my opinion, it is a feature that only fuels Munchkin behaviour. I do allow feats because feats make for more interesting characters than ASI bonuses.
That said, I haven't seen any of your games either.
Not everything needs to be optimised to within an inch of their lives. Some people don’t have master’s degrees in math or physics and don’t care to spend hours calculating everything down to the last 0.00005 of a point of damage. Some people play for…. Shock horror…. Fun.
I'm assuming point buy, which means you'll need 2 ASIs to reach 20 unless you're doing custom lineage and take a half-feat.