First of all, sorry if this isn't the right forum spot. Seemed most fitting.
Anyway.
So I'm building a character for an upcoming game with some friends, one that's going to mostly focus around RP, politics, deception, puzzles, etc. Combat of course will be inevitable, but will be avoided as much as possible. Character won't be missing leg day, so his main tactic will be to run and/or hide.
I had this concept in mind where I'd stick to two classes at most such as Warlock Rogue or Bard Sorcerer, but ended up being indecisive and, probably a really stupid idea, ended up building a character with four different classes in it. Warlock, Pact of the Chain, The Great Old One, 11th level. Sorcerer, Aberrant Mind, 3rd level. Rogue, Arcane Trickster, 3rd level. And finally, Bard, College of Eloquence, 3rd level. Order will go.
Warlock 1 (For the wisdom save bonus. I know Rogue has Dex Int, but wisdom saves seems more common place among spies.)
Rogue 3
Sorcerer 3
Bard 3
Warlock 11
How big of a mistake am I making? Stats wise, I've managed to do well enough. Con and Strength are.. not so great, but hey, if I do well those two shouldn't matter too much, right? ..Right?
The stats ended up being 9, 14, 11, 16, 16, 20
Now if I get into combat, I'm in deep trouble, but a friend has built his character around saving my sorry self. Basically he's the guy who makes the great plans, sees ahead, gets me in and out of a zone, while I do all the smooth talking, stealing, tricking, etc. So I should be okay.
RP wise, I've gone spells that would be useful in that situation. Nothing too high level sadly, but hey, as I said. I wanted my cake and to have eaten it too so I'm doing the best I can.
Any suggestion for build changes that allow me to keep as much of this as possible? Or should I just bite the bullet and see what this mess of a character ends up doing?
The character certainly is a mess, but a messy character is only a problem if (a) you do not find it fun to play (usually due to being behind everyone else in combat) or (b) you are perceived as not pulling your weight in a party, making things harder on the other players and the DM. It seems, for now, you are accepting of the combat being a bit messy and you have at least one other party member who gets enjoyment designing to make up for your shortfalls, so, at least to begin with, you are probably fine.
However, that might change the longer the campaign lasts. Characters hyper-dedicated to having the ability to talk their way out of every situation can trend toward main character syndrome—trying to take over the out-of-combat gameplay. That is not to say you will fall to MCS, but it is something you need to be aware of, especially if you start to overcompensate for lack of combat prowess by excessive monopolisation of non-combat situations.
You also do not know how your other friends might feel long-term. Even in combat-light games, you still will likely have folks that start to grow tired with the “oh, it’s okay, I am terrible now, but promise I’ll make it up to you” of very messy character builds. In some groups, that might be especially true in combat-light campaigns—they want to finish the “boring combat part” as quickly as possible to get back to roleplaying, and the character with four classes who is constantly behind everyone else in combat potential slows things down.
Now, none of that is to say you cannot play this character as built - just to give you some warnings about potential and common out-of-game pitfalls, so you can play accordingly and mitigate some of the points of friction.
Just checking in to say you will be level 13 before you get your first asi, and you’ll only ever get 2. Are you sure the campaign will go to 20? Most end around 12ish.
And you’ll only have level 2 spells from bard/sorcerer. Higher slots, but only level 2 spells. Going against CR 20 enemies with level 2 spells doesn’t seem like the greatest plan. Warlock pact magic doesn’t really play well with full caster slots, so just be wary of that.
Race: Svirfneblin (MToF version not the M3 redo), Background: Criminal (using spy variant), Class: Single classed Bard (lore), Feats: Svirfneblin magic (at level 4) + whatever else you want. Svirfneblin Magic would let you cast Nondetection @ will which makes you immune to divination magic and Bard would let you access Invisibility/Greater Invisibility and give you all the skills, experitse and charm abilities you could want. If you wanted a bit more of a sneaky/combat option you could go College of Whispers instead of Lore.
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* Need a character idea? Search for "Rob76's Unused" in the Story and Lore section.
What spells are you focusing on? I feel like a Changeling with Actor and Observant is ultra good for this. Go Charlatan for the Disguise and Forgery kits so that you can pass yourself off as both Jarred Bumwash, the Castellon's brand new vallet, and Rubia Sophia Gertruda Nobledotter II, the King's third niece once removed.
That's how you get in... then you shape yourself like the king's advisors to wreak havoc.
And take Distort Value when you're able to cast spells.
This sounds like a really cool character. What’s his patron like?
Honestly, this part is probably the biggest work in progress. I probably shouldn't put too much detail into the whole idea because the DM will be happy with just a few sentences/a paragraph. However, I've been making up my own setting for a campaign where the gods straight up almost destroyed the planet, and that it's mostly a barren wasteland now that is extremely hard to live in, magic is hard to come by as it's now quite unstable, people and creatures were warped beyond recognition in some areas. Think.. Fallout meets Kenshi kind of vibe, I guess?
Anyway, it seems many people weren't too interested in my campaign so I might recycle a god from there and use that as a patron, if I can find the notes, lost a lot when my hard drive died. Did find one though. The Senseless God; The Painter of Worlds, a vaguely humanoid being that lacks a face, eyes, mouth, ears, that 'sees' the world through what it imagines. What it pictures in its mind and 'paints' can alter reality.
How that works for a spy patron, I'unno yet. I'll either work on it or swap to another one of the gods I created.
The character certainly is a mess, but a messy character is only a problem if (a) you do not find it fun to play (usually due to being behind everyone else in combat) or (b) you are perceived as not pulling your weight in a party, making things harder on the other players and the DM. It seems, for now, you are accepting of the combat being a bit messy and you have at least one other party member who gets enjoyment designing to make up for your shortfalls, so, at least to begin with, you are probably fine.
However, that might change the longer the campaign lasts. Characters hyper-dedicated to having the ability to talk their way out of every situation can trend toward main character syndrome—trying to take over the out-of-combat gameplay. That is not to say you will fall to MCS, but it is something you need to be aware of, especially if you start to overcompensate for lack of combat prowess by excessive monopolisation of non-combat situations.
You also do not know how your other friends might feel long-term. Even in combat-light games, you still will likely have folks that start to grow tired with the “oh, it’s okay, I am terrible now, but promise I’ll make it up to you” of very messy character builds. In some groups, that might be especially true in combat-light campaigns—they want to finish the “boring combat part” as quickly as possible to get back to roleplaying, and the character with four classes who is constantly behind everyone else in combat potential slows things down.
Now, none of that is to say you cannot play this character as built - just to give you some warnings about potential and common out-of-game pitfalls, so you can play accordingly and mitigate some of the points of friction.
Oh, I know it's an absolute mess. I'm refining it more as I go along, it'll be a while until the game starts. I don't mind being a support in combat, or not being the most useful. I do worry about being a burden but I've been reassured it'll be fine by my party members and DM. Worse case scenario, the DM said we can tweak things if they don't work without scrapping the character or game. So that does make me feel better if I end up screwing things.
Yes, this is something I'm afraid of, but the other players say they are fine with. They'll be handling a lot of behind the scenes things. Like, I'll be distracting with conversation, politics, etc, they'll be stealing, forging, copying. While I may appear to be the face of the party, we still are a team. I'm fairly good at avoiding MCS, I think, unless I'm put in that situation by the players and DM themselves. Kind of unavoidable at that point if no one wants to engage. That said, haven't really had that issue with this group at all. Should also mention the game is planned to last a long while. We've had our share and fun of short games lately and want something more long term.
Thank you for the heads up and tips! Much appreciated.
Just checking in to say you will be level 13 before you get your first asi, and you’ll only ever get 2. Are you sure the campaign will go to 20? Most end around 12ish.
And you’ll only have level 2 spells from bard/sorcerer. Higher slots, but only level 2 spells. Going against CR 20 enemies with level 2 spells doesn’t seem like the greatest plan. Warlock pact magic doesn’t really play well with full caster slots, so just be wary of that.
Yeah, I noticed in my sleepiness just how poorly levelled my character is. I've reworked some of it now and works much better. More warlock levels early, bard and sorcerer later. We're also starting with a level 1 feat via the playtest rules of One D&D. We're testing out a few things from that with this campaign. Thanks for pointing that out!
Race: Svirfneblin (MToF version not the M3 redo), Background: Criminal (using spy variant), Class: Single classed Bard (lore), Feats: Svirfneblin magic (at level 4) + whatever else you want. Svirfneblin Magic would let you cast Nondetection @ will which makes you immune to divination magic and Bard would let you access Invisibility/Greater Invisibility and give you all the skills, experitse and charm abilities you could want. If you wanted a bit more of a sneaky/combat option you could go College of Whispers instead of Lore.
Thanks for the build idea, I'll keep it in mind if this one just can't work out. My problem is still that I want my cake and to eat it too, so I'm trying to stuff as much in a character as possible.
Though, I'm also aware of how bad this build is with its spell levels and whatnot.
What level will your characters start at? And will you realistically go all the way to 20 if you start at low levels?
1-20. I know it sounds like a stretch, but we tend to have our own way of levelling characters up it's a variant of milestone, and it's faster than standard levelling and we'll be playing more than once a week at times, so the campaign isn't likely to stretch on for years. Probably a good few months, we'll have our fun, do what we wanted, start a new one.
What spells are you focusing on? I feel like a Changeling with Actor and Observant is ultra good for this. Go Charlatan for the Disguise and Forgery kits so that you can pass yourself off as both Jarred Bumwash, the Castellon's brand new vallet, and Rubia Sophia Gertruda Nobledotter II, the King's third niece once removed.
That's how you get in... then you shape yourself like the king's advisors to wreak havoc.
And take Distort Value when you're able to cast spells.
Changeling Actor is what I'm going! Observant is being used by our Divination Wizard, he's going to be like.. the mastermind or 'hacker' character. Never really there in the front, but always in the back, without his support we'd be hopeless. Think Bain from Payday or The Professor from Money Heist. There, sometimes in person, but always there in planning and executing a plan.
As for spells, whatever I can get that'll help during RP more than combat. Things like charms, illusions, buffs/boons, debuffs, etc. I know my choices will be limited with my spell list, but I'm still willing to try this crazy, and stupid, build!
Thanks for all the replies, I'll be considering all of them as I continue to tweak the build. May need to either lose bard or sorcerer, sadly but hey, it'll still be fun!
Please talk to your GM about your idea. I have given similar advice about "tweaking a character" but the player handed me a train wreck and wanted to make it work in the setting. If the GM when designing combat encounters counts your level as 1/2 or 1/4 it might help but in general I as a GM and a player have trouble with PC' who always run away and let others deal with the physical stuff.
Please talk to your GM about your idea. I have given similar advice about "tweaking a character" but the player handed me a train wreck and wanted to make it work in the setting. If the GM when designing combat encounters counts your level as 1/2 or 1/4 it might help but in general I as a GM and a player have trouble with PC' who always run away and let others deal with the physical stuff.
You need not worry! I've spoken with the DM and players and they're all supportive. I simply just wanted to see if anyone had ideas on how to refine this character more, to help me with my indecisiveness.
Don't get me wrong, the character can still fight to a degree, eldritch blast is always handy, and control spells help. Just, he's most likely to run when things get bad, not the 'fight to the last dying breath' type. The other characters, while not as 'specialized' as mine, still are more rp focused. They're just doing less multiclassing, thus still have the functionality of their classes.
well, there is the skill monkey build if you really want to go for something "special"....
You need Dex, Wis and Cha 13+, ideally needs you to start at level 8 but can be tweaked to start at lower levels. Born human (use variant taking prodigy as the feat). Raised in temple (Acolyte background). Ran Away from the temple and became petty thief (Rogue). Fell into singing on street corners as distraction for pick pockets (Bard). Turned over new leave and became bounty hunter (Ranger). Received Vision of the temple they were raised in being destroyed and took up Priestly role (Cleric with Knowledge domain) pledging to serve the god of the templewho is a god of forgotten knowledge (Ghaunadaur in an Elder Scrolls Hermaus Mora style). Sings to entertain and teach masses about the religion of Ghaunadaur (More Bard). Does not know Ghaunadaur is a Great Old One or that he has sold his soul and views himself as a priest not as any of the classes listed above.
Class progression is: level 1 Rogue, level 2 & 3 Bard, Level 4 Ranger, level 5: Cleric. level 6 & 7: Warlock (GOO), level 8: bard (lore), level 9+ alternate between warlock and bard but cap bard at level 5, teh warlock pact is not particular relevant but I went with Pact of Tome.
If you do it right you can get proficincy with all skills, have expertise in more skills than is needed and be fluent in several languages and have some nifty low level spells to aid you when needed and if you take it to level 20 (the holy grail of characters) your class should be: level 1 in Rogue, Ranger and Cleric, level 5 in bard and level 12 in Warlock. You wont have many feats and you'll likely really annoy your DM with your shennanigans.
Build it as a NPC not a character. That will let you pick and choose the proper things needed. If you have Tomb of Anihilation Look at Artus Climber’s stat block.
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First of all, sorry if this isn't the right forum spot. Seemed most fitting.
Anyway.
So I'm building a character for an upcoming game with some friends, one that's going to mostly focus around RP, politics, deception, puzzles, etc. Combat of course will be inevitable, but will be avoided as much as possible. Character won't be missing leg day, so his main tactic will be to run and/or hide.
I had this concept in mind where I'd stick to two classes at most such as Warlock Rogue or Bard Sorcerer, but ended up being indecisive and, probably a really stupid idea, ended up building a character with four different classes in it. Warlock, Pact of the Chain, The Great Old One, 11th level. Sorcerer, Aberrant Mind, 3rd level. Rogue, Arcane Trickster, 3rd level. And finally, Bard, College of Eloquence, 3rd level. Order will go.
Warlock 1 (For the wisdom save bonus. I know Rogue has Dex Int, but wisdom saves seems more common place among spies.)
Rogue 3
Sorcerer 3
Bard 3
Warlock 11
How big of a mistake am I making? Stats wise, I've managed to do well enough. Con and Strength are.. not so great, but hey, if I do well those two shouldn't matter too much, right? ..Right?
The stats ended up being 9, 14, 11, 16, 16, 20
Now if I get into combat, I'm in deep trouble, but a friend has built his character around saving my sorry self. Basically he's the guy who makes the great plans, sees ahead, gets me in and out of a zone, while I do all the smooth talking, stealing, tricking, etc. So I should be okay.
RP wise, I've gone spells that would be useful in that situation. Nothing too high level sadly, but hey, as I said. I wanted my cake and to have eaten it too so I'm doing the best I can.
Any suggestion for build changes that allow me to keep as much of this as possible? Or should I just bite the bullet and see what this mess of a character ends up doing?
This sounds like a really cool character. What’s his patron like?
I really like D&D, especially Ravenloft, Exandria and the Upside Down from Stranger Things. My pronouns are she/they (genderfae).
The character certainly is a mess, but a messy character is only a problem if (a) you do not find it fun to play (usually due to being behind everyone else in combat) or (b) you are perceived as not pulling your weight in a party, making things harder on the other players and the DM. It seems, for now, you are accepting of the combat being a bit messy and you have at least one other party member who gets enjoyment designing to make up for your shortfalls, so, at least to begin with, you are probably fine.
However, that might change the longer the campaign lasts. Characters hyper-dedicated to having the ability to talk their way out of every situation can trend toward main character syndrome—trying to take over the out-of-combat gameplay. That is not to say you will fall to MCS, but it is something you need to be aware of, especially if you start to overcompensate for lack of combat prowess by excessive monopolisation of non-combat situations.
You also do not know how your other friends might feel long-term. Even in combat-light games, you still will likely have folks that start to grow tired with the “oh, it’s okay, I am terrible now, but promise I’ll make it up to you” of very messy character builds. In some groups, that might be especially true in combat-light campaigns—they want to finish the “boring combat part” as quickly as possible to get back to roleplaying, and the character with four classes who is constantly behind everyone else in combat potential slows things down.
Now, none of that is to say you cannot play this character as built - just to give you some warnings about potential and common out-of-game pitfalls, so you can play accordingly and mitigate some of the points of friction.
Just checking in to say you will be level 13 before you get your first asi, and you’ll only ever get 2. Are you sure the campaign will go to 20? Most end around 12ish.
And you’ll only have level 2 spells from bard/sorcerer. Higher slots, but only level 2 spells. Going against CR 20 enemies with level 2 spells doesn’t seem like the greatest plan. Warlock pact magic doesn’t really play well with full caster slots, so just be wary of that.
As an alternative:
Race: Svirfneblin (MToF version not the M3 redo), Background: Criminal (using spy variant), Class: Single classed Bard (lore), Feats: Svirfneblin magic (at level 4) + whatever else you want. Svirfneblin Magic would let you cast Nondetection @ will which makes you immune to divination magic and Bard would let you access Invisibility/Greater Invisibility and give you all the skills, experitse and charm abilities you could want. If you wanted a bit more of a sneaky/combat option you could go College of Whispers instead of Lore.
What level will your characters start at? And will you realistically go all the way to 20 if you start at low levels?
I know what you're thinking: "In that flurry of blows, did he use all his ki points, or save one?" Well, are ya feeling lucky, punk?
What spells are you focusing on? I feel like a Changeling with Actor and Observant is ultra good for this. Go Charlatan for the Disguise and Forgery kits so that you can pass yourself off as both Jarred Bumwash, the Castellon's brand new vallet, and Rubia Sophia Gertruda Nobledotter II, the King's third niece once removed.
That's how you get in... then you shape yourself like the king's advisors to wreak havoc.
And take Distort Value when you're able to cast spells.
First, sorry for the lack of replies. I did another.. not-so-smart thing and wrote this right before I ended up passing out from tiredness.
Honestly, this part is probably the biggest work in progress. I probably shouldn't put too much detail into the whole idea because the DM will be happy with just a few sentences/a paragraph.
However, I've been making up my own setting for a campaign where the gods straight up almost destroyed the planet, and that it's mostly a barren wasteland now that is extremely hard to live in, magic is hard to come by as it's now quite unstable, people and creatures were warped beyond recognition in some areas. Think.. Fallout meets Kenshi kind of vibe, I guess?
Anyway, it seems many people weren't too interested in my campaign so I might recycle a god from there and use that as a patron, if I can find the notes, lost a lot when my hard drive died. Did find one though. The Senseless God; The Painter of Worlds, a vaguely humanoid being that lacks a face, eyes, mouth, ears, that 'sees' the world through what it imagines. What it pictures in its mind and 'paints' can alter reality.
How that works for a spy patron, I'unno yet. I'll either work on it or swap to another one of the gods I created.
Oh, I know it's an absolute mess. I'm refining it more as I go along, it'll be a while until the game starts. I don't mind being a support in combat, or not being the most useful. I do worry about being a burden but I've been reassured it'll be fine by my party members and DM. Worse case scenario, the DM said we can tweak things if they don't work without scrapping the character or game. So that does make me feel better if I end up screwing things.
Yes, this is something I'm afraid of, but the other players say they are fine with. They'll be handling a lot of behind the scenes things. Like, I'll be distracting with conversation, politics, etc, they'll be stealing, forging, copying. While I may appear to be the face of the party, we still are a team. I'm fairly good at avoiding MCS, I think, unless I'm put in that situation by the players and DM themselves. Kind of unavoidable at that point if no one wants to engage. That said, haven't really had that issue with this group at all. Should also mention the game is planned to last a long while. We've had our share and fun of short games lately and want something more long term.
Thank you for the heads up and tips! Much appreciated.
Yeah, I noticed in my sleepiness just how poorly levelled my character is. I've reworked some of it now and works much better. More warlock levels early, bard and sorcerer later. We're also starting with a level 1 feat via the playtest rules of One D&D. We're testing out a few things from that with this campaign.
Thanks for pointing that out!
Thanks for the build idea, I'll keep it in mind if this one just can't work out.
My problem is still that I want my cake and to eat it too, so I'm trying to stuff as much in a character as possible.
Though, I'm also aware of how bad this build is with its spell levels and whatnot.
1-20. I know it sounds like a stretch, but we tend to have our own way of levelling characters up it's a variant of milestone, and it's faster than standard levelling and we'll be playing more than once a week at times, so the campaign isn't likely to stretch on for years. Probably a good few months, we'll have our fun, do what we wanted, start a new one.
Changeling Actor is what I'm going! Observant is being used by our Divination Wizard, he's going to be like.. the mastermind or 'hacker' character. Never really there in the front, but always in the back, without his support we'd be hopeless. Think Bain from Payday or The Professor from Money Heist. There, sometimes in person, but always there in planning and executing a plan.
As for spells, whatever I can get that'll help during RP more than combat. Things like charms, illusions, buffs/boons, debuffs, etc. I know my choices will be limited with my spell list, but I'm still willing to try this crazy, and stupid, build!
Thanks for all the replies, I'll be considering all of them as I continue to tweak the build. May need to either lose bard or sorcerer, sadly but hey, it'll still be fun!
Please talk to your GM about your idea. I have given similar advice about "tweaking a character" but the player handed me a train wreck and wanted to make it work in the setting. If the GM when designing combat encounters counts your level as 1/2 or 1/4 it might help but in general I as a GM and a player have trouble with PC' who always run away and let others deal with the physical stuff.
You need not worry! I've spoken with the DM and players and they're all supportive. I simply just wanted to see if anyone had ideas on how to refine this character more, to help me with my indecisiveness.
Don't get me wrong, the character can still fight to a degree, eldritch blast is always handy, and control spells help. Just, he's most likely to run when things get bad, not the 'fight to the last dying breath' type. The other characters, while not as 'specialized' as mine, still are more rp focused. They're just doing less multiclassing, thus still have the functionality of their classes.
well, there is the skill monkey build if you really want to go for something "special"....
You need Dex, Wis and Cha 13+, ideally needs you to start at level 8 but can be tweaked to start at lower levels.
Born human (use variant taking prodigy as the feat).
Raised in temple (Acolyte background).
Ran Away from the temple and became petty thief (Rogue).
Fell into singing on street corners as distraction for pick pockets (Bard).
Turned over new leave and became bounty hunter (Ranger).
Received Vision of the temple they were raised in being destroyed and took up Priestly role (Cleric with Knowledge domain) pledging to serve the god of the templewho is a god of forgotten knowledge (Ghaunadaur in an Elder Scrolls Hermaus Mora style).
Sings to entertain and teach masses about the religion of Ghaunadaur (More Bard).
Does not know Ghaunadaur is a Great Old One or that he has sold his soul and views himself as a priest not as any of the classes listed above.
Class progression is: level 1 Rogue, level 2 & 3 Bard, Level 4 Ranger, level 5: Cleric. level 6 & 7: Warlock (GOO), level 8: bard (lore), level 9+ alternate between warlock and bard but cap bard at level 5, teh warlock pact is not particular relevant but I went with Pact of Tome.
If you do it right you can get proficincy with all skills, have expertise in more skills than is needed and be fluent in several languages and have some nifty low level spells to aid you when needed and if you take it to level 20 (the holy grail of characters) your class should be: level 1 in Rogue, Ranger and Cleric, level 5 in bard and level 12 in Warlock. You wont have many feats and you'll likely really annoy your DM with your shennanigans.
Build it as a NPC not a character.
That will let you pick and choose the proper things needed.
If you have Tomb of Anihilation Look at Artus Climber’s stat block.