Twitter and Youtube aren't exactly reputable sources.
I have been on about 8 or 10 twitter and you tube links today that direct to the Gizmodo article, or Kickstarter confirming their terms with wotc, or Troll Lords announcing they are getting out of the D&D business completely. So yeah, they are indeed reputable sources.
So what we actually have is one article by Gizmodo (which still doesn't actually show the document) and stuff by Kickstarter, which doesn't actually use the OGL in the first place.
I was firmly in the “this is still dubious YouTube clickbait” camp, too, until Linda’s article which isn’t based on second hand info or excerpts but the entire intact document, vetted by io9’s lawyers, and now corroborated by other official sources like Kickstarter who were directly involved in corporate-level discussions, and others replying to Linda online. It’s no longer clickbait speculation, but as basically confirmed as it can be without WotC publishing it themselves. Linda has shown a history of being a journalist as opposed to clickbait YouTuber, so as deeply skeptical as I was, I’m now convinced this is real, at least back in early December. As of today, Occam’s razor is cutting the other way. (As a side note, it pisses me off that skeezy clickbait YouTubers we’re largely proven right, but broken clock and all that.) ;)
They legally cannot charge royalties or claim restrictions on the rules and mechanics.
They are by law not copyrightable.
But the SRD and most OGL products include a heck of a lot more than just uncopyrightable rules and mechanics. The “you can’t copyright mechanics” approach is a lot more complicated and nuanced than most people treat it. That was one of the biggest benefits of the OGL 1.0 - a clearly defined safe harbor that all parties agreed to.
Any company would have stepped in at that point, because the way copyright laws are written doing otherwise would have been considered abandonment of the IP.
Throw a stone on twitter or you tube. Look up Gizmodo.
I boycott Twitter and everything on YouTube that I’ve found is just talking about the doc, not the doc itself. I asked if anyone had a link to the doc.
Throw a stone on twitter or you tube. Look up Gizmodo.
I boycott Twitter and everything on YouTube that I’ve found is just talking about the doc, not the doc itself. I asked if anyone had a link to the doc.
Don't read to much into it. Someone supposedly got an early draft of the OGL 1.1 and spread of bunch of information that can't actually be proven to be true. The document in question said that the OGL would be released on the 4th (which obviously didn't happen) yet everyone is sure the rest of it is 100%. Wait a little while and the when WotC actually releases it to the public, then freak out if needed. Right now people are grabbing torches and pitch forks over rumors.
Disney and Paramount respond aggressively like that because there isn't an OGL for Star Trek or Star Wars. Paramount in particular was relatively lenient about fan-created content until one group started trying to monetize their fan-made movie. Any company would have stepped in at that point, because the way copyright laws are written doing otherwise would have been considered abandonment of the IP.
Axanar is the fan film you are talking about: and gee, how DARE fans create something that their benevolent corpo masters won't. Do you knwo WHY US copyright law is written the way it is? I'll tell you: because the Walt Disney Corporation; which i might remind everyone made its fortunes initially by adapting OTHER people's work; pulled up the ladder behind themselves. Copyrights in the USA are not only written to encourage ridiculous aggressive preemptive action (anyone remember the time Bethesda C&D-ed Mojag because they titled a game "scrolls"?), but extend the window of ownership from life of the author, to life of the author +50 years, to life of the author +70 years.
Paramount was letting Axanar get made. The issue was not that fans were creating something. Paramount only put a stop to it when the people making Axanar tried to monotize it, which they knew they were not legally allowed to do. They tried to pass themselves off as innocent victims but they knowingly and deliberately broke the rules.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
Disney and Paramount respond aggressively like that because there isn't an OGL for Star Trek or Star Wars. Paramount in particular was relatively lenient about fan-created content until one group started trying to monetize their fan-made movie. Any company would have stepped in at that point, because the way copyright laws are written doing otherwise would have been considered abandonment of the IP.
Axanar is the fan film you are talking about: and gee, how DARE fans create something that their benevolent corpo masters won't. Do you knwo WHY US copyright law is written the way it is? I'll tell you: because the Walt Disney Corporation; which i might remind everyone made its fortunes initially by adapting OTHER people's work; pulled up the ladder behind themselves. Copyrights in the USA are not only written to encourage ridiculous aggressive preemptive action (anyone remember the time Bethesda C&D-ed Mojag because they titled a game "scrolls"?), but extend the window of ownership from life of the author, to life of the author +50 years, to life of the author +70 years.
Paramount was letting Axanar get made. The issue was not that fans were creating something. Paramount only put a stop to it when the people making Axanar tried to monotize it, which they knew they were not legally allowed to do. They tried to pass themselves off as innocent victims but they knowingly and deliberately broke the rules.
And then Paramount/CBS used that as an excuse to torpedo innumerable other projects that did NOT "break the rules". They saddled the entire fan film and project community with their "fan work guidelines" document, which is just as draconian as what we now are looking down the barrel of. Corporations by their nature are amoral money engines; they do NOT care what is "fair" or "right", or even "legal" (see the number of times Disney has been busted stealing people's work): they care about profits, and thus; shutting down potential competition, because they mistake money not going directly to them as profits lost.
Speaking for myself; I'd rather not live in a world where-in my very imagination becomes a wholly owned subsidiary of the Hasbro corporation in all but name... But then again: some people would rather live in the cyberpunk dystopia rushing headlong toward us I suppose.
Throw a stone on twitter or you tube. Look up Gizmodo.
I boycott Twitter and everything on YouTube that I’ve found is just talking about the doc, not the doc itself. I asked if anyone had a link to the doc.
Don't read to much into it. Someone supposedly got an early draft of the OGL 1.1 and spread of bunch of information that can't actually be proven to be true. The document in question said that the OGL would be released on the 4th (which obviously didn't happen) yet everyone is sure the rest of it is 100%. Wait a little while and the when WotC actually releases it to the public, then freak out if needed. Right now people are grabbing torches and pitch forks over rumors.
Right...so Kickstarter officially confirming the royalty numbers precisely as reported, and Troll Lords officially exiting the D&D market, that means nothing......
But I am not going to convince you. You will continue to deride those presenting facts.
You mean this Kickstarter quote
Kickstarter was contacted after WoTC decided to make OGL changes, so we felt the best move was to advocate for creators, which we did. Managed to get lower % plus more being discussed. No hidden benefits / no financial kickbacks for KS. This is their license, not ours, obviously.
The one that says that the are part of the discussions that are apparently still being discussed?
Or this one that neither provides any number or confirms or denies the numbers quoted?
Very much aware of the numbers.
I also have no way of knowing why or how Troll Lord makes business decisions. I highly doubt that they are within the less than 20 companies that are privy to the ongoing negotiations.
It's exactly what they did with 4E and the GSL, which actually launched Pathfinder in the first place. Looks like every decade or so, the suits stick their nose in and wreck everything. Then, once sufficient value has been lost that the people who actually care are handed back the product, and allowed to open it, you get a flourishing ecosystem, that the suits once again come in and monetize into the ground.
As a Creator of DnD and VTT content, I await the official release...and just luke I am trying to create OneDnD-friendly content ahead of the actual release...I'll adjust to whatever the new reality is.
And all of these publishers and players saying the will leave DnD behind? Most already have anyway (for Pathfinder, for example).
every Pathfinder Player/DM I have met over the years has tried to convince me it is better than DnD...if that were true, it would be bigger already, especially after the pandemic.
Amazingly enough, it is those very people who are raising the most fuss and trying tp push the worst case scenario.
Ill wait for the true Official stuff and adjust to it. No whining. No crying. Just accepting and working within the system.
I was firmly in the “this is still dubious YouTube clickbait” camp, too, until Linda’s article which isn’t based on second hand info or excerpts but the entire intact document, vetted by io9’s lawyers, and now corroborated by other official sources like Kickstarter who were directly involved in corporate-level discussions, and others replying to Linda online. It’s no longer clickbait speculation, but as basically confirmed as it can be without WotC publishing it themselves. Linda has shown a history of being a journalist as opposed to clickbait YouTuber, so as deeply skeptical as I was, I’m now convinced this is real, at least back in early December. As of today, Occam’s razor is cutting the other way. (As a side note, it pisses me off that skeezy clickbait YouTubers we’re largely proven right, but broken clock and all that.) ;)
The io9 article is a lot less hysterical than some of the youtubers have been though. It confirmed the stuff that WotC themselves told us they would do previously (the royalty, the restriction of the OGL to print media and PDFs, the revenue-reporting). It provided more detail in some aspects (e.g. the royalty calculation is based on gross revenue, including crowdfunding proceeds, and kickstarter gets you a slightly better cut). But all of that seems reasonable to me in principle. I would suggest WotC lower the royalty a bit or base it on profits rather than revenues, but the idea itself is inoffensive.
The one thing that gives me pause personally is the granting WotC an unlimited license to any work you publish using the new OGL. You already do that with this platform (e.g. if you publish homebrew through DnDBeyond, you're also licensing it to them for their own use) but if that clause is accurate then the medium won't matter. In theory that could means WotC might be able to resell your own books and PDFs on their website and not pay you anything, nor can you get something taken down if you don't want it up there anymore. This is a passage I'm hoping gets refined a bit before publication.
i just wanted to voice my pov on these current developments by way of giving feedback to any WotC staff that may read here. I’m not here to discuss anything.
From what I’ve seen on this „update“ on the OGL, it will effectively become a closed license, a CGL. It will have a serious to critical negative impact on the creators I support. Without going into any details, this CGL is an affront to the community. If Hasbro/WotC are going through with implementing this and burying the OGL, I’m going to stop supporting them and their products, including DnDBeyond going forward.
I stopped playing D&D after 2e and came back to 5e, largely because I became aware of the OGL and all of the cool content the creators made for the game. I bought D&D products because of all the cool supplementary products by community creators. I figured the OGL was a genius move and still do. Without it, D&D would never have had the community support and it would never have recovered. Even without Paizo, there’s other alternatives to D&D out there.
On the plus-side of this unfolding disaster, every time D&D has stumbled because it was taken over by the suits, it’s resulted in a plethora of creativity and opportunity for new systems and innovation in the community. Without D&D, I’ll have the resources to get more deeply invested into the many exciting alternatives.
So, as always, there’s a bright side and a lot of opportunity here. Perhaps it’s just time for some change, and I now still have years worth of 5e stuff to play with on my pile of shame in case I get nostalgic.
I really don't understand what was broke here that needed fixing. WotC had record profits last year, and Hasbro has been in near constant growth till the pandemic hit... Why do they need to make the market landscape worse?
I suspect Hasbro especially overestimate the brand solidarity of the community as well, if this spirals into bigger controversies between them and other companies people will move on during the jump to onednd
I really don't understand what was broke here that needed fixing. WotC had record profits last year, and Hasbro has been in near constant growth till the pandemic hit... Why do they need to make the market landscape worse?
I suspect Hasbro especially overestimate the brand solidarity of the community as well, if this spirals into bigger controversies between them and other companies people will move on during the jump to onednd
Same reason that most AAA games companies in the video game space are racing themselves to get out more life-sucking, time-vampire "live-service" forever-games that never end and have "recurrent user spending"... Think my soul died a little just typing that. Notice the whole push with "One D&D" is to "render editions a thing of the past" and just "forever update this one edition for the rest of time". The underlying desire of course: making some money, even a LOT of money is no good: you need to make ALL the money, more money than has ever been made before! Growth forever! ... Apparently companies like Hasbro lack any children on hand to state the blatantly obvious; that there's a finite amount of TTRPG players on Earth and therefore forever growth is impossible.
Yeah, the "Turn players into payers" mentality is already predatory and a detriment to gaming communities.
Really don't need that stacked on top of "Yes and we are definitely doing this to hamper Paizo, because the best part competition isn't competing for players, it's lawyer battles" (If of course the leaks are correct)
I really don't understand what was broke here that needed fixing. WotC had record profits last year, and Hasbro has been in near constant growth till the pandemic hit... Why do they need to make the market landscape worse.
I think the biggest issue is this: “the Open Game License was always intended to allow the community to help grow D&D and expand it creatively. It wasn’t intended to subsidize major competitors, especially now that PDF is by far the most common form of distribution.”
I can understand why WotC would feel that they deserve a piece of the pie when Paizo and other publishers are using the OGL to create games that directlycompete with D&D as fantasy RPGs, instead of creating material for D&D (or using it to create games in genres that D&D doesn't cover). I don't know what the best way to handle this would be. I think it's fair for WotC to ask for royalties in such cases, as it amounts to lost business for them, but I think some of the stipulations in the new OGL are a bit too draconian and far-reaching regarding the way this is being handled.
Also, I don't like the direction they're taking vis-a-vis VTTs, and also with being able to terminate the agreement with a third party for any reason while retaining a royalty-free license to use that third party's material. There's a lot of potential for abuse there.
I will wait for the fallout of this. But if this results in what the community fears, and especially if it leads to lawsuits etc, I will abandon D&D and D&D Beyond quickly despite pouring a lot of money into books and subscription.
Same here. I am a relatively decent collector of D&D items (books, blind boxes, etc.), and I have spent hundreds on their stuff. If they go through with what is currently thought to go down, I'll leave. Sure, I spent a lot on their stuff but I have spent way more on homebrew creators. I'll back up people like The Griffin's Saddlebag way before I will ever stand behind WotC.
I really don't understand what was broke here that needed fixing. WotC had record profits last year, and Hasbro has been in near constant growth till the pandemic hit... Why do they need to make the market landscape worse.
I think the biggest issue is this: “the Open Game License was always intended to allow the community to help grow D&D and expand it creatively. It wasn’t intended to subsidize major competitors, especially now that PDF is by far the most common form of distribution.”
I can understand why WotC would feel that they deserve a piece of the pie when Paizo and other publishers are using the OGL to create games that directlycompete with D&D as fantasy RPGs, instead of creating material for D&D (or using it to create games in genres that D&D doesn't cover). I don't know what the best way to handle this would be. I think it's fair for WotC to ask for royalties in such cases, as it amounts to lost business for them, but I think some of the stipulations in the new OGL are a bit too draconian and far-reaching regarding the way this is being handled.
Also, I don't like the direction they're taking vis-a-vis VTTs, and also with being able to terminate the agreement with a third party for any reason while retaining a royalty-free license to use that third party's material. There's a lot of potential for abuse there.
Right. IF the leaks are accurate I would say that WotC is making it clear that they do not want third party publishers or people expanding the TTRPG community using the same core ruleset, they want volunteer writers that will make content for them for free for the chance at some exposure. That's all a big IF at this point. I'm saving my torches for the actual OGL release text, but maybe making a few extra just in case...
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I was firmly in the “this is still dubious YouTube clickbait” camp, too, until Linda’s article which isn’t based on second hand info or excerpts but the entire intact document, vetted by io9’s lawyers, and now corroborated by other official sources like Kickstarter who were directly involved in corporate-level discussions, and others replying to Linda online. It’s no longer clickbait speculation, but as basically confirmed as it can be without WotC publishing it themselves. Linda has shown a history of being a journalist as opposed to clickbait YouTuber, so as deeply skeptical as I was, I’m now convinced this is real, at least back in early December. As of today, Occam’s razor is cutting the other way. (As a side note, it pisses me off that skeezy clickbait YouTubers we’re largely proven right, but broken clock and all that.) ;)
But the SRD and most OGL products include a heck of a lot more than just uncopyrightable rules and mechanics. The “you can’t copyright mechanics” approach is a lot more complicated and nuanced than most people treat it. That was one of the biggest benefits of the OGL 1.0 - a clearly defined safe harbor that all parties agreed to.
That’s true for trademarks not copyright.
I boycott Twitter and everything on YouTube that I’ve found is just talking about the doc, not the doc itself. I asked if anyone had a link to the doc.
Creating Epic Boons on DDB
DDB Buyers' Guide
Hardcovers, DDB & You
Content Troubleshooting
Don't read to much into it. Someone supposedly got an early draft of the OGL 1.1 and spread of bunch of information that can't actually be proven to be true. The document in question said that the OGL would be released on the 4th (which obviously didn't happen) yet everyone is sure the rest of it is 100%. Wait a little while and the when WotC actually releases it to the public, then freak out if needed. Right now people are grabbing torches and pitch forks over rumors.
She/Her Player and Dungeon Master
Paramount was letting Axanar get made. The issue was not that fans were creating something. Paramount only put a stop to it when the people making Axanar tried to monotize it, which they knew they were not legally allowed to do. They tried to pass themselves off as innocent victims but they knowingly and deliberately broke the rules.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
And then Paramount/CBS used that as an excuse to torpedo innumerable other projects that did NOT "break the rules". They saddled the entire fan film and project community with their "fan work guidelines" document, which is just as draconian as what we now are looking down the barrel of. Corporations by their nature are amoral money engines; they do NOT care what is "fair" or "right", or even "legal" (see the number of times Disney has been busted stealing people's work): they care about profits, and thus; shutting down potential competition, because they mistake money not going directly to them as profits lost.
Speaking for myself; I'd rather not live in a world where-in my very imagination becomes a wholly owned subsidiary of the Hasbro corporation in all but name... But then again: some people would rather live in the cyberpunk dystopia rushing headlong toward us I suppose.
You mean this Kickstarter quote
The one that says that the are part of the discussions that are apparently still being discussed?
Or this one that neither provides any number or confirms or denies the numbers quoted?
I also have no way of knowing why or how Troll Lord makes business decisions. I highly doubt that they are within the less than 20 companies that are privy to the ongoing negotiations.
She/Her Player and Dungeon Master
It's exactly what they did with 4E and the GSL, which actually launched Pathfinder in the first place. Looks like every decade or so, the suits stick their nose in and wreck everything. Then, once sufficient value has been lost that the people who actually care are handed back the product, and allowed to open it, you get a flourishing ecosystem, that the suits once again come in and monetize into the ground.
Evolution. We either role with it or go extinct.
As a Creator of DnD and VTT content, I await the official release...and just luke I am trying to create OneDnD-friendly content ahead of the actual release...I'll adjust to whatever the new reality is.
And all of these publishers and players saying the will leave DnD behind? Most already have anyway (for Pathfinder, for example).
every Pathfinder Player/DM I have met over the years has tried to convince me it is better than DnD...if that were true, it would be bigger already, especially after the pandemic.
Amazingly enough, it is those very people who are raising the most fuss and trying tp push the worst case scenario.
Ill wait for the true Official stuff and adjust to it. No whining. No crying. Just accepting and working within the system.
Check us out on Twitch, YouTube and the DISCORD!
The io9 article is a lot less hysterical than some of the youtubers have been though. It confirmed the stuff that WotC themselves told us they would do previously (the royalty, the restriction of the OGL to print media and PDFs, the revenue-reporting). It provided more detail in some aspects (e.g. the royalty calculation is based on gross revenue, including crowdfunding proceeds, and kickstarter gets you a slightly better cut). But all of that seems reasonable to me in principle. I would suggest WotC lower the royalty a bit or base it on profits rather than revenues, but the idea itself is inoffensive.
The one thing that gives me pause personally is the granting WotC an unlimited license to any work you publish using the new OGL. You already do that with this platform (e.g. if you publish homebrew through DnDBeyond, you're also licensing it to them for their own use) but if that clause is accurate then the medium won't matter. In theory that could means WotC might be able to resell your own books and PDFs on their website and not pay you anything, nor can you get something taken down if you don't want it up there anymore. This is a passage I'm hoping gets refined a bit before publication.
We will move to another game, no problem. I dont mind the hundreds spent un DnDB If my favourite third party creators cant create their things
Hi,
i just wanted to voice my pov on these current developments by way of giving feedback to any WotC staff that may read here. I’m not here to discuss anything.
From what I’ve seen on this „update“ on the OGL, it will effectively become a closed license, a CGL. It will have a serious to critical negative impact on the creators I support. Without going into any details, this CGL is an affront to the community. If Hasbro/WotC are going through with implementing this and burying the OGL, I’m going to stop supporting them and their products, including DnDBeyond going forward.
I stopped playing D&D after 2e and came back to 5e, largely because I became aware of the OGL and all of the cool content the creators made for the game. I bought D&D products because of all the cool supplementary products by community creators. I figured the OGL was a genius move and still do. Without it, D&D would never have had the community support and it would never have recovered. Even without Paizo, there’s other alternatives to D&D out there.
On the plus-side of this unfolding disaster, every time D&D has stumbled because it was taken over by the suits, it’s resulted in a plethora of creativity and opportunity for new systems and innovation in the community. Without D&D, I’ll have the resources to get more deeply invested into the many exciting alternatives.
So, as always, there’s a bright side and a lot of opportunity here. Perhaps it’s just time for some change, and I now still have years worth of 5e stuff to play with on my pile of shame in case I get nostalgic.
I really don't understand what was broke here that needed fixing. WotC had record profits last year, and Hasbro has been in near constant growth till the pandemic hit... Why do they need to make the market landscape worse?
I suspect Hasbro especially overestimate the brand solidarity of the community as well, if this spirals into bigger controversies between them and other companies people will move on during the jump to onednd
Same reason that most AAA games companies in the video game space are racing themselves to get out more life-sucking, time-vampire "live-service" forever-games that never end and have "recurrent user spending"... Think my soul died a little just typing that. Notice the whole push with "One D&D" is to "render editions a thing of the past" and just "forever update this one edition for the rest of time". The underlying desire of course: making some money, even a LOT of money is no good: you need to make ALL the money, more money than has ever been made before! Growth forever! ... Apparently companies like Hasbro lack any children on hand to state the blatantly obvious; that there's a finite amount of TTRPG players on Earth and therefore forever growth is impossible.
Yeah, the "Turn players into payers" mentality is already predatory and a detriment to gaming communities.
Really don't need that stacked on top of "Yes and we are definitely doing this to hamper Paizo, because the best part competition isn't competing for players, it's lawyer battles" (If of course the leaks are correct)
I think the biggest issue is this: “the Open Game License was always intended to allow the community to help grow D&D and expand it creatively. It wasn’t intended to subsidize major competitors, especially now that PDF is by far the most common form of distribution.”
I can understand why WotC would feel that they deserve a piece of the pie when Paizo and other publishers are using the OGL to create games that directly compete with D&D as fantasy RPGs, instead of creating material for D&D (or using it to create games in genres that D&D doesn't cover). I don't know what the best way to handle this would be. I think it's fair for WotC to ask for royalties in such cases, as it amounts to lost business for them, but I think some of the stipulations in the new OGL are a bit too draconian and far-reaching regarding the way this is being handled.
Also, I don't like the direction they're taking vis-a-vis VTTs, and also with being able to terminate the agreement with a third party for any reason while retaining a royalty-free license to use that third party's material. There's a lot of potential for abuse there.
I will wait for the fallout of this. But if this results in what the community fears, and especially if it leads to lawsuits etc, I will abandon D&D and D&D Beyond quickly despite pouring a lot of money into books and subscription.
Same here. I am a relatively decent collector of D&D items (books, blind boxes, etc.), and I have spent hundreds on their stuff. If they go through with what is currently thought to go down, I'll leave. Sure, I spent a lot on their stuff but I have spent way more on homebrew creators. I'll back up people like The Griffin's Saddlebag way before I will ever stand behind WotC.
5e Player and rookie homebrew DM
Right. IF the leaks are accurate I would say that WotC is making it clear that they do not want third party publishers or people expanding the TTRPG community using the same core ruleset, they want volunteer writers that will make content for them for free for the chance at some exposure. That's all a big IF at this point. I'm saving my torches for the actual OGL release text, but maybe making a few extra just in case...