The PCs and NPCs still need something to say, in character, in the game world. We as players and DMs need something to say in conversations as the characters.
OK, honestly... how often do you ask an NPC what "species" they are? You get that from the description of them the DM gives you. "The shopkeeper is an orc who looks like he had a tough life before settling down. One tusk is chipped, and there's a matching scar running down that side of his face, but he has a broad and friendly smile as you enter his store."
I literally cannot think of a single instance in a campaign where any of my players or other members of my party have had an in-game conversation asking someone about their race/species/subtype/whatever
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Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
As I said, it's a small thing. I am also not talking about asking someone 'what species are you?' Or 'what species was your attacker?' Though that could come up sometimes I guess. And species still sounds better in those cases than 'what kind was your attacker?'
I'm talking about other more indirect references. Some examples of things we might have said before -
'After the war, representatives of the three races met to form a new alliance. '
'As I stand before you, the citizens of this grand city, members of every race and faith on the continent.'
'The famous warriors of renown were not all human, there were many races among them.'
'The ancient writings say that members of this forgotten race were once well versed in magic.'
All of these quotes sound better when replacing race with species, than they would with any purely mechanical term like subtype or kind. Sure, you can kind of work around any of them. You can get creative with the way you write any sentence. But I just personally feel that Species is accurate, intuitive to new players, and it is also useful in filling a role in normal language.
Most of us have already started using Species very easily in these forums and elsewhere. It flows naturally and isn't the least bit inconvenient. You don't have to think about different ways to say it. You just replace an old word with a new. We could all obviously adapt if we had to use a mechanical term. We could capitalize Kind or whatever. But species has been a very intuitive change already.
I really wish there were more people who didn't care. It's not a big deal. But hecc if we don't have to fight over it every single time, apparently.
Agreed. Discussions on the topic always seem to devolve into political arguments.
I don't care about politics, I just don't want them using a scientific term incorrectly. It's confusing.
They... aren't, though?
From Oxford Languages:
species
/ˈspiːʃɪz,ˈspiːʃiːz,ˈspiːsiːz/
a group of living organisms consisting of similar individuals capable of exchanging genes or interbreeding.
And it's kind of pointless to argue about science when all of these different peoples are in settings that have magic.
Thank you for the definition that proves my point. This definition outright says if they can breed, they are the same species. That is my problem with making elves and humans separate species as that makes them by (this) definition incapable of interbreeding.
It is true that the fantasy word has magic, all the more reason to not try and drag incorrectly used scientific terms into it. They should use a more general term like lineage, ancestry, or subtype.
Thank you for the definition that proves my point. This definition outright says if they can breed, they are the same species. That is my problem with making elves and humans separate species as that makes them by (this) definition incapable of interbreeding.
This is one of the definitions for species, and the other is "a kind or sort." Also, species is synonyms with kind and type, so if we're ignoring all other definitions of species, then both of those other terms automatically must refer only to different kind or sorts of groups that can interbreed.
TL;DR There are at least 21 definitions used by biologists and philosophers, and there is heavy disagreement about which one should be considered "correct" or even if a singular definition is appropriate at all.
You can get uselessly specific, if you would like, but philosophical and biological experts accept more broad applications of the term independent of physical capacity for interbreeding.
The term can, and should, have a different definition depending on the context. The important thing is that it distinguishes between groups or individuals on a taxonomically basic level. Elves, humans, dragonborns, etc... have explicitly different origins and biological paths, so even if they have the capacity for turning into a melting pot, they are still identifiably distinct in the current representation.
Let's reconvene in a few generations when we have faerunians who are true fantasy mutts.
I'm talking about other more indirect references. Some examples of things we might have said before -
'After the war, representatives of the three races met to form a new alliance. '
"After the war, representatives of the elven, dwarven and orcish kingdoms (or 'victorious kingdoms', or other descriptor) met to form a new alliance"
'As I stand before you, the citizens of this grand city, members of every race and faith on the continent.'
"As I stand before you, the citizens of this grand city, who count among their number representatives of every stirp and faith on the continent..."
(It's a political speech, they aren't going to be using game terms)
'The famous warriors of renown were not all human, there were many races among them.'
"The famous warriors of renown were not all human." (The rest is redundant).
'The ancient writings say that members of this forgotten race were once well versed in magic.'
"The ancient writings say that the long-forgotten [NAME OF PEOPLE] were once well-versed in magic"
All of these quotes sound better when replacing race with species
All of them sound better when you don't try to insert either race or species, and instead specify who or what you're talking about
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Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
I'm talking about other more indirect references. Some examples of things we might have said before -
'After the war, representatives of the three races met to form a new alliance. '
"After the war, representatives of the elven, dwarven and orcish kingdoms (or 'victorious kingdoms', or other descriptor) met to form a new alliance"
'As I stand before you, the citizens of this grand city, members of every race and faith on the continent.'
"As I stand before you, the citizens of this grand city, who count among their number representatives of every stirp and faith on the continent..."
(It's a political speech, they aren't going to be using game terms)
'The famous warriors of renown were not all human, there were many races among them.'
"The famous warriors of renown were not all human." (The rest is redundant).
'The ancient writings say that members of this forgotten race were once well versed in magic.'
"The ancient writings say that the long-forgotten [NAME OF PEOPLE] were once well-versed in magic"
All of these quotes sound better when replacing race with species
All of them sound better when you don't try to insert either race or species, and instead specify who or what you're talking about
Cool. I don't know what your intent was. Other than to give examples of the thing I said in the rest of my post that you didn't quote. I'll repeat part of that here -
"Sure, you can kind of work around any of them. You can get creative with the way you write any sentence. But I just personally feel that Species is accurate, intuitive to new players, and it is also useful in filling a role in normal language."
But yes, those are some examples of how any sentence can be rephrased. Anyone can rewrite anything any time. Again, just my opinion, and a small issue overall. It's just easier to replace one word with another word that people are used to using in everyday speech. No one has to think about it in the middle of improvising a scene. The DM and players don't have to get creative on the fly. But if you want to have to think about it, you can certainly come up with alternatives. Which is what I said, and you showed. Maybe the writer doesn't want to specify the 3 species involved in a story every time they talk about them. Maybe they don't know the name of the forgotten species. There are still uses for a unified word. That's why those words exist. If the game term is also the word the characters use for it, it's easier for everyone. Maybe not a ton easier. Maybe it's not the biggest issue at hand. But it does have enough value for me to choose Species over Subtype.
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OK, honestly... how often do you ask an NPC what "species" they are? You get that from the description of them the DM gives you. "The shopkeeper is an orc who looks like he had a tough life before settling down. One tusk is chipped, and there's a matching scar running down that side of his face, but he has a broad and friendly smile as you enter his store."
I literally cannot think of a single instance in a campaign where any of my players or other members of my party have had an in-game conversation asking someone about their race/species/subtype/whatever
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Not really. A normal conversation isn't:
Instead, it is
Not saying the first form never comes up, but it's not super common and often results in awkward phrasing when it does come up.
As I said, it's a small thing. I am also not talking about asking someone 'what species are you?' Or 'what species was your attacker?' Though that could come up sometimes I guess. And species still sounds better in those cases than 'what kind was your attacker?'
I'm talking about other more indirect references. Some examples of things we might have said before -
'After the war, representatives of the three races met to form a new alliance. '
'As I stand before you, the citizens of this grand city, members of every race and faith on the continent.'
'The famous warriors of renown were not all human, there were many races among them.'
'The ancient writings say that members of this forgotten race were once well versed in magic.'
All of these quotes sound better when replacing race with species, than they would with any purely mechanical term like subtype or kind. Sure, you can kind of work around any of them. You can get creative with the way you write any sentence. But I just personally feel that Species is accurate, intuitive to new players, and it is also useful in filling a role in normal language.
Most of us have already started using Species very easily in these forums and elsewhere. It flows naturally and isn't the least bit inconvenient. You don't have to think about different ways to say it. You just replace an old word with a new. We could all obviously adapt if we had to use a mechanical term. We could capitalize Kind or whatever. But species has been a very intuitive change already.
Just my personal feelings on it.
Thank you for the definition that proves my point. This definition outright says if they can breed, they are the same species. That is my problem with making elves and humans separate species as that makes them by (this) definition incapable of interbreeding.
It is true that the fantasy word has magic, all the more reason to not try and drag incorrectly used scientific terms into it. They should use a more general term like lineage, ancestry, or subtype.
This is one of the definitions for species, and the other is "a kind or sort." Also, species is synonyms with kind and type, so if we're ignoring all other definitions of species, then both of those other terms automatically must refer only to different kind or sorts of groups that can interbreed.
It can be, but new players are more likely to be confused by a dry mechanical term than one they understand and use in real life.
BoringBard's long and tedious posts somehow manage to enrapture audiences. How? Because he used Charm Person, the #1 bard spell!
He/him pronouns. Call me Bard. PROUD NERD!
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HERE.If you want a "scientific" definition of species, don't use the standard dictionary.
Here is an academic article discussing the term "Species".
TL;DR There are at least 21 definitions used by biologists and philosophers, and there is heavy disagreement about which one should be considered "correct" or even if a singular definition is appropriate at all.
You can get uselessly specific, if you would like, but philosophical and biological experts accept more broad applications of the term independent of physical capacity for interbreeding.
The term can, and should, have a different definition depending on the context. The important thing is that it distinguishes between groups or individuals on a taxonomically basic level. Elves, humans, dragonborns, etc... have explicitly different origins and biological paths, so even if they have the capacity for turning into a melting pot, they are still identifiably distinct in the current representation.
Let's reconvene in a few generations when we have faerunians who are true fantasy mutts.
"After the war, representatives of the elven, dwarven and orcish kingdoms (or 'victorious kingdoms', or other descriptor) met to form a new alliance"
"As I stand before you, the citizens of this grand city, who count among their number representatives of every stirp and faith on the continent..."
(It's a political speech, they aren't going to be using game terms)
"The famous warriors of renown were not all human." (The rest is redundant).
"The ancient writings say that the long-forgotten [NAME OF PEOPLE] were once well-versed in magic"
All of them sound better when you don't try to insert either race or species, and instead specify who or what you're talking about
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Cool. I don't know what your intent was. Other than to give examples of the thing I said in the rest of my post that you didn't quote. I'll repeat part of that here -
"Sure, you can kind of work around any of them. You can get creative with the way you write any sentence. But I just personally feel that Species is accurate, intuitive to new players, and it is also useful in filling a role in normal language."
But yes, those are some examples of how any sentence can be rephrased. Anyone can rewrite anything any time. Again, just my opinion, and a small issue overall. It's just easier to replace one word with another word that people are used to using in everyday speech. No one has to think about it in the middle of improvising a scene. The DM and players don't have to get creative on the fly. But if you want to have to think about it, you can certainly come up with alternatives. Which is what I said, and you showed. Maybe the writer doesn't want to specify the 3 species involved in a story every time they talk about them. Maybe they don't know the name of the forgotten species. There are still uses for a unified word. That's why those words exist. If the game term is also the word the characters use for it, it's easier for everyone. Maybe not a ton easier. Maybe it's not the biggest issue at hand. But it does have enough value for me to choose Species over Subtype.