I and about 20 other people I know, yes I know that's not a lot, will not be buying any more wotc products. Even though my 20 aren't many there are groups al;l around that are like mine and it will be felt in the wallets of the shareholders. I'm just waiting for my canceled account to expire. Maybe I'll go back to AD&D, we still have most if not all the books between us.
To me this whole thing feels a lot like one of the big 20 publishing companies didn't like the idea of paying royalties for material copy/pasted from the SRD.
...
The never needed the OGL 1.1 licence which is why they are now promising to make their own version of a 'OpenRPG' licence.
Why do this now and not any time in the last 20 years that would have avoided the entire problem in the first place?
Seeing how many people are bragging about buying Pathfinder to 'reward them' while claiming they will never trust WOTC again the "Cancel WOTC" campaign clearly worked. Yet to figure out who was lying, you need to look at who profited from the 'drama' it created.
Three days ago, I was at the same point as you. Exactly the same. Then one of the 3PP pointed out where the real issue with the proposed OGL 1.1 lies: in the leaked version, WotC is adding a 30 days notification before changes to the OGL clause. That clause alone will kill your business. You can never again run a Kickstarter, never again print a book without the risk of said book not being able to be published because between running the Kickstarter or receiving the book, the OGL suddenly changes and if your book contains something that is now prohibited, you wasted money and consumer trust. The 30 day notice clause would only really work for you, if you stick to PDF-only.
As to why nobody has done a new license before: it wasn‘t necessary, because people believed in the safe harbor granted by the OGL 1.0a. WotC even used to say it on their web site FAQs that everything was safe. Monte Cook, Ryan Dancey and other people who where there when OGL went into effect, said it was never meant to be changed. Until suddenly it didn‘t.
I am not using 3rd party content either, but I follow some OSR creators. They are affected too. It's not just about the current D&D version. Also, great alternate takes like Doctors & Daleks, Everyday Heroes, and Victoriana 5e are also affected.
There'll likely be lawsuits with ORC anyway. Again, ship has sailed. And even if there won't be - hell, even if there are and WotC *loses* - nobodys sticking with 1.0a long-term anyway. One way or another, it's over.
Providing ORC doesn't use any copytrighted material from WOTC or whoever what lawsuits would you anticipate with ORC?
I am not using 3rd party content either, but I follow some OSR creators. They are affected too. It's not just about the current D&D version. Also, great alternate takes like Doctors & Daleks, Everyday Heroes, and Victoriana 5e are also affected.
Not sure they are automatically so if not monetized. This assumption that WotC would just try to shut down literally everything is, to me, still just an assumption. Even going after every monetized everything would be easier said than done. That is a lot of litigation with questionable, if any return on their efforts.
It‘s not the assumption that WotC will shut everything down, it‘s more like: „under these conditions, the business carries too high a risk and is no longer profitable“. That‘s effectively shutting down things without contacting each and every publisher separately. That‘s why I am for OpenDnD and pro ORC.
Because every day they release the revocable version of 1.0a they are losing market share. It isn’t just costing them subscriptions now - take a look at it how much interest there is in pathfinder. (And the back order time on several sites for the books.)
Brand loyalty is sticky, but angry customers look for alternatives. Paizo is demonstrating a masterclass in how to increase their share while Hasbro is demonstrating the total opposite.
people who switch, won’t be likely to come back. If that doesn’t scare the investor class, then they are not paying attention.
And you think them announcing 1.0a to be irrevocable will somehow change that?
There'll likely be lawsuits with ORC anyway. Again, ship has sailed. And even if there won't be - hell, even if there are and WotC *loses* - nobodys sticking with 1.0a long-term anyway. One way or another, it's over.
Providing ORC doesn't use any copytrighted material from WOTC or whoever what lawsuits would you anticipate with ORC?
With the license itself? Probably nothing, at least initially. With the inevitable clones, reproductions and derivatives that get published through it? Well, we'll have to see.
I’ve been subscribed at the highest possible tier for years, and I’ve bought every single bit of content released since I started playing. With all of this? I’m out. Unsubscribed, not buying anything else. We’ll see what they decide to do and if that will change.
I’ve had issues with the direction WotC has taken D&D, although D&D 5E has been my gateway into TTRPGs. I love the experiences I’ve had telling heroic stories with friends, but I think this is what will finally end my spending on WotC products. Fortunately, pen and paper are always in supply. Fortunately, I as the DM can control the world I have built on the framework D&D has provided. I don’t have to run any campaign, one-shot, or encounter how they’d like me to. Fortunately, I can change out some of the awful “woke” lore and content in order to focus on running fun sessions (orcs are Tolkien-esque, and Setessa isn’t the Setessa in the Theros book), as I’d rather not passive-aggressively preach to my players (which they appreciate). Fortunately, there are a variety of games available for play that are now that much more worth exploring. If D&D has taught me anything, it’s that I am the final arbiter at my table. So while I do love TSR for helping blaze this TTRPG trail, and even WotC for carrying the torch for so long, I think it’s time to seek out good alternatives after seeing this glimpse into WotC’s process and priorities.
I am not using 3rd party content either, but I follow some OSR creators. They are affected too. It's not just about the current D&D version. Also, great alternate takes like Doctors & Daleks, Everyday Heroes, and Victoriana 5e are also affected.
Not sure they are automatically so if not monetized. This assumption that WotC would just try to shut down literally everything is, to me, still just an assumption. Even going after every monetized everything would be easier said than done. That is a lot of litigation with questionable, if any return on their efforts.
It‘s not the assumption that WotC will shut everything down, it‘s more like: „under these conditions, the business carries too high a risk and is no longer profitable“. That‘s effectively shutting down things without contacting each and every publisher separately. That‘s why I am for OpenDnD and pro ORC.
Businesses do not shut down on 'Maybe next year will be bad.' If that was the case, they would have been shutting down the moment they received the early copies of the 1.1
No. They chose to try and call out WotC for the behavior the company was engaging in. At least somewhat successful. A 30 day period for notification about changes to OGL is too short to create and sell print runs. It’s simply not feasible anymore. This what Frog God Games have pointed out. Rightfully so.
I was really excited to see what an integrated VTT was going to look like.
You can find many good examples of integrated VTTs for many game systems, just not D&D.
Foundry VTT has an excellent implementation for PF2, for instance (along with many other game systems).
Yes, I own most of the books on dndbeyond (except the last 2 adventures - I was burnt on the poor writing/logic in Rime of the Frostmaiden!), and yes I have cancelled my Master subscription.
People do decide against opening a NEW business if it means they have to stand on top of a pit trap that can be triggered at any moment.
Regarding new3rd parties starting up such as newstreams etc, to explain this in DnD terms - If your character has a move of 30, are you going to feel comfortable standing on a pit trap that is 300 feet across, while the BBEG is watching you with his hand on the activation lever? Answer: NO! Only a character with a dump stat Int of 5 is going to be stupid enough to think that might be safe ground to stand on.
Regarding existing3rd parties continuing to create newcontent, to explain in DnD terms - If your character has built an entire merchant town on solid ground, and then discovers a group of purple worms is burrowing huge caverns underground which can lead to a collapse of the entire area, is your character going to stand around and wait for the ground to fall out from under the town? Answer: NO! Even an Int 5 merchant is smart enough to flee unstable ground.
So it really doesn't matter what hasbro does now with 1.1 or 2.0 or whatever number they use. The ground under 1.0a is under attack. Whether it is dug out or withstands the assault, it does not seem as safe and trustable as it once was, so people will move off of it and will not build new things based on it.
The damage to the DnD community is done. It's related to the story of the angry boy and the bag of nails - it doesn't matter if hasbro says they are sorry, the trust has been betrayed and that damage will not disappear by apologetic words alone.
To be fair, the plan to "wait until this blows over and people stop talking about it" will technically work. Vast swathes of their previous players will be on other systems that aren't beholden to the new OGL, so they will care when WotC changes it.
That one line they won, too, makes me think that they did... they pretty much scared away all content creators and eliminated others that use the OGL and DnD content.
So the 'WOTC wants to revoke OGL1.0' is based entirely on the leaked draft wording that may not have been intended to apply to OGL1.0 at all.
To say WOTC could 'void OGL1.0' is a bit like claiming a publisher updating their terms and conditions would lead to every single book in a library, bookshop and every online store worldwide being pulled from the shelves at a moment's notice.
Yes books can be withdrawn (eg for legal action) but it only works if the publisher controls all the distribution...which I think is what those 3rd party publishers are REALLY upset about.
The point of OGL1.1 is for it to be used with the upcoming OneDND SRD and clarify the difference between 'free and commercial use'.
To me all the context about secret deals and changing TOS looked a lot like WOTC was planning to allow those who sign up to OGL1.1 to sell their own content on DNDBeyond.
Even if WOTC did revoke OGL1.0 they have no way to enforce the change on previously released content because unlike a online game or website they have no way to control what was released under that licence.
They also clarified in December that because OneDND plans to be comparable with 5e that you could just use the old SRD or make homebrew without the OGL if you didn't like the terms of the new OGL.
So for people wanting WOTC to promise to NEVER revoke the OGL your asking for something that never needed to be done in the first place?
Because there's really no point in revoking the ODL1.0 when the real money maker is expanding the DMs Guild into DND Beyond.
Alberta Banana@TheRealAlberta: Good News! I finally brought Zangief back from the Dead :D :D :D Also I'M A LITCH FOR REAL! Downside may have ruined 60% of Athas in the process... sigh... I'll fix it tomorrow. LVL20 Litch, Sorcerer King of the Second Banana Age of Athas, Survivor of the Tomb of Horrors, Backwards Spellcaster, Undead Warlock Patron to Jane with a army of Simulacrum clones.
So the 'WOTC wants to revoke OGL1.0' is based entirely on the leaked draft wording that may not have been intended to apply to OGL1.0 at all.
To say WOTC could 'void OGL1.0' is a bit like claiming a publisher updating their terms and conditions would lead to every single book in a library, bookshop and every online store worldwide being pulled from the shelves at a moment's notice.
Yes books can be withdrawn (eg for legal action) but it only works if the publisher controls all the distribution...which I think is what those 3rd party publishers are REALLY upset about.
The point of OGL1.1 is for it to be used with the upcoming OneDND SRD and clarify the difference between 'free and commercial use'.
To me all the context about secret deals and changing TOS looked a lot like WOTC was planning to allow those who sign up to OGL1.1 to sell their own content on DNDBeyond.
Even if WOTC did revoke OGL1.0 they have no way to enforce the change on previously released content because unlike a online game or website they have no way to control what was released under that licence.
They also clarified in December that because OneDND plans to be comparable with 5e that you could just use the old SRD or make homebrew without the OGL if you didn't like the terms of the new OGL.
So for people wanting WOTC to promise to NEVER revoke the OGL your asking for something that never needed to be done in the first place?
Because there's really no point in revoking the ODL1.0 when the real money maker is expanding the DMs Guild into DND Beyond.
No... that's not what it said at all, can you please read or try to understand what the OGL 1.1 actually said before making comments like this? The wording doesn't get any clearer.
A. Modification: This agreement is, along with the OGL: Commercial, an update to the previously available OGL 1.0(a), which is no longer an authorized license agreement. We can modify or terminate this agreement for any reason whatsoever, provided We give thirty days’ notice. We will provide notice of any such changes by posting the revisions on Our website and by making public announcements of the changes through Our social media channels.
I love D&D. I purchased nearly every digital product on D&D Beyond. I have almost all the hard covers with some additional alternate covers. I've even purchased a few Beadle & Grimms platinum products. I have all the latest WizKid chromatic dragons. I purchased the Spelljammer WizKids pack.
I was excited for ONE D&D. I was ALL IN and could have been in for the rest of my life. Now I'm not. No more WotC. I'm out.
So far I decided to downgrade my subscription from Master to Hero and wait to see what will happen. Sure is I will continue to support 3PP. Sometimes changes are a good thing, and I will have more time and money for WFRP since the people I play with already moved there few months ago.
So far I decided to downgrade my subscription from Master to Hero and wait to see what will happen. Sure is I will continue to support 3PP. Sometimes changes are a good thing, and I will have more time and money for WFRP since the people I play with already moved there few months ago.
From the newest reply from Kyle We're-On-The-Brink-of-Bankruptcy-Come-Back-Guys you should probably just cancel out and move on. They're not willing to back down and understand the situation. Now they want us to leave feedback on a new OGL rather than commit to walking back to the OGL 1.0
They're literally just brushing us aside at this point and hoping we fold, it's a familiar behavior of corporations pushed on by careless investors.
So far I decided to downgrade my subscription from Master to Hero and wait to see what will happen. Sure is I will continue to support 3PP. Sometimes changes are a good thing, and I will have more time and money for WFRP since the people I play with already moved there few months ago.
From the newest reply from Kyle We're-On-The-Brink-of-Bankruptcy-Come-Back-Guys you should probably just cancel out and move on. They're not willing to back down and understand the situation. Now they want us to leave feedback on a new OGL rather than commit to walking back to the OGL 1.0
They're literally just brushing us aside at this point and hoping we fold, it's a familiar behavior of corporations pushed on by careless investors.
Yes they are. It's a common delaying tactic and the survey is just designed to get discourse off of public forums like Twitter, Reddit and Facebook.
First thought on today's (1/18) apology: Too little, too late. They had a lot of time to address the controversy before it got out of control, but they only started to take real action and make statements when they started loosing subscribers and actual money. And then their first apology was snarky and insulting and gaslighting.
Second thought on today's apology: They're still calling the leaked "OGL" 1.1 a draft. We know it wasn't. They're still lying. An apology with a lie is no apology at all.
Third thought on today's apology: WotC, you want our feedback on changes to the OGL? DON'T CHANGE IT AT ALL! Except maybe to add the word "irrevocable" to clause 4 of OGL 1.0a.
I and about 20 other people I know, yes I know that's not a lot, will not be buying any more wotc products. Even though my 20 aren't many there are groups al;l around that are like mine and it will be felt in the wallets of the shareholders. I'm just waiting for my canceled account to expire. Maybe I'll go back to AD&D, we still have most if not all the books between us.
Three days ago, I was at the same point as you. Exactly the same. Then one of the 3PP pointed out where the real issue with the proposed OGL 1.1 lies: in the leaked version, WotC is adding a 30 days notification before changes to the OGL clause. That clause alone will kill your business. You can never again run a Kickstarter, never again print a book without the risk of said book not being able to be published because between running the Kickstarter or receiving the book, the OGL suddenly changes and if your book contains something that is now prohibited, you wasted money and consumer trust. The 30 day notice clause would only really work for you, if you stick to PDF-only.
As to why nobody has done a new license before: it wasn‘t necessary, because people believed in the safe harbor granted by the OGL 1.0a. WotC even used to say it on their web site FAQs that everything was safe. Monte Cook, Ryan Dancey and other people who where there when OGL went into effect, said it was never meant to be changed. Until suddenly it didn‘t.
I am not using 3rd party content either, but I follow some OSR creators. They are affected too. It's not just about the current D&D version. Also, great alternate takes like Doctors & Daleks, Everyday Heroes, and Victoriana 5e are also affected.
Providing ORC doesn't use any copytrighted material from WOTC or whoever what lawsuits would you anticipate with ORC?
It‘s not the assumption that WotC will shut everything down, it‘s more like: „under these conditions, the business carries too high a risk and is no longer profitable“. That‘s effectively shutting down things without contacting each and every publisher separately. That‘s why I am for OpenDnD and pro ORC.
And you think them announcing 1.0a to be irrevocable will somehow change that?
With the license itself? Probably nothing, at least initially. With the inevitable clones, reproductions and derivatives that get published through it? Well, we'll have to see.
I’ve been subscribed at the highest possible tier for years, and I’ve bought every single bit of content released since I started playing. With all of this? I’m out. Unsubscribed, not buying anything else. We’ll see what they decide to do and if that will change.
I’ve had issues with the direction WotC has taken D&D, although D&D 5E has been my gateway into TTRPGs. I love the experiences I’ve had telling heroic stories with friends, but I think this is what will finally end my spending on WotC products. Fortunately, pen and paper are always in supply. Fortunately, I as the DM can control the world I have built on the framework D&D has provided. I don’t have to run any campaign, one-shot, or encounter how they’d like me to. Fortunately, I can change out some of the awful “woke” lore and content in order to focus on running fun sessions (orcs are Tolkien-esque, and Setessa isn’t the Setessa in the Theros book), as I’d rather not passive-aggressively preach to my players (which they appreciate). Fortunately, there are a variety of games available for play that are now that much more worth exploring. If D&D has taught me anything, it’s that I am the final arbiter at my table. So while I do love TSR for helping blaze this TTRPG trail, and even WotC for carrying the torch for so long, I think it’s time to seek out good alternatives after seeing this glimpse into WotC’s process and priorities.
No. They chose to try and call out WotC for the behavior the company was engaging in. At least somewhat successful. A 30 day period for notification about changes to OGL is too short to create and sell print runs. It’s simply not feasible anymore. This what Frog God Games have pointed out. Rightfully so.
You can find many good examples of integrated VTTs for many game systems, just not D&D.
Foundry VTT has an excellent implementation for PF2, for instance (along with many other game systems).
Yes, I own most of the books on dndbeyond (except the last 2 adventures - I was burnt on the poor writing/logic in Rime of the Frostmaiden!), and yes I have cancelled my Master subscription.
People do decide against opening a NEW business if it means they have to stand on top of a pit trap that can be triggered at any moment.
Regarding new 3rd parties starting up such as new streams etc, to explain this in DnD terms - If your character has a move of 30, are you going to feel comfortable standing on a pit trap that is 300 feet across, while the BBEG is watching you with his hand on the activation lever? Answer: NO! Only a character with a dump stat Int of 5 is going to be stupid enough to think that might be safe ground to stand on.
Regarding existing 3rd parties continuing to create new content, to explain in DnD terms - If your character has built an entire merchant town on solid ground, and then discovers a group of purple worms is burrowing huge caverns underground which can lead to a collapse of the entire area, is your character going to stand around and wait for the ground to fall out from under the town? Answer: NO! Even an Int 5 merchant is smart enough to flee unstable ground.
So it really doesn't matter what hasbro does now with 1.1 or 2.0 or whatever number they use. The ground under 1.0a is under attack. Whether it is dug out or withstands the assault, it does not seem as safe and trustable as it once was, so people will move off of it and will not build new things based on it.
The damage to the DnD community is done. It's related to the story of the angry boy and the bag of nails - it doesn't matter if hasbro says they are sorry, the trust has been betrayed and that damage will not disappear by apologetic words alone.
To be fair, the plan to "wait until this blows over and people stop talking about it" will technically work. Vast swathes of their previous players will be on other systems that aren't beholden to the new OGL, so they will care when WotC changes it.
They win, and so does ?
That one line they won, too, makes me think that they did... they pretty much scared away all content creators and eliminated others that use the OGL and DnD content.
So the 'WOTC wants to revoke OGL1.0' is based entirely on the leaked draft wording that may not have been intended to apply to OGL1.0 at all.
To say WOTC could 'void OGL1.0' is a bit like claiming a publisher updating their terms and conditions would lead to every single book in a library, bookshop and every online store worldwide being pulled from the shelves at a moment's notice.
Yes books can be withdrawn (eg for legal action) but it only works if the publisher controls all the distribution...which I think is what those 3rd party publishers are REALLY upset about.
The point of OGL1.1 is for it to be used with the upcoming OneDND SRD and clarify the difference between 'free and commercial use'.
To me all the context about secret deals and changing TOS looked a lot like WOTC was planning to allow those who sign up to OGL1.1 to sell their own content on DNDBeyond.
Even if WOTC did revoke OGL1.0 they have no way to enforce the change on previously released content because unlike a online game or website they have no way to control what was released under that licence.
They also clarified in December that because OneDND plans to be comparable with 5e that you could just use the old SRD or make homebrew without the OGL if you didn't like the terms of the new OGL.
So for people wanting WOTC to promise to NEVER revoke the OGL your asking for something that never needed to be done in the first place?
Because there's really no point in revoking the ODL1.0 when the real money maker is expanding the DMs Guild into DND Beyond.
Alberta Banana @TheRealAlberta: Good News! I finally brought Zangief back from the Dead :D :D :D Also I'M A LITCH FOR REAL! Downside may have ruined 60% of Athas in the process... sigh... I'll fix it tomorrow.
LVL20 Litch, Sorcerer King of the Second Banana Age of Athas, Survivor of the Tomb of Horrors, Backwards Spellcaster, Undead Warlock Patron to Jane with a army of Simulacrum clones.
No... that's not what it said at all, can you please read or try to understand what the OGL 1.1 actually said before making comments like this? The wording doesn't get any clearer.
A. Modification: This agreement is, along with the OGL: Commercial, an update to the previously available OGL 1.0(a), which is no longer an authorized license agreement. We can modify or terminate this agreement for any reason whatsoever, provided We give thirty days’ notice. We will provide notice of any such changes by posting the revisions on Our website and by making public announcements of the changes through Our social media channels.
Yeah, I'm out. No more WotC for me.
I love D&D. I purchased nearly every digital product on D&D Beyond. I have almost all the hard covers with some additional alternate covers. I've even purchased a few Beadle & Grimms platinum products. I have all the latest WizKid chromatic dragons. I purchased the Spelljammer WizKids pack.
I was excited for ONE D&D. I was ALL IN and could have been in for the rest of my life. Now I'm not. No more WotC. I'm out.
So far I decided to downgrade my subscription from Master to Hero and wait to see what will happen. Sure is I will continue to support 3PP. Sometimes changes are a good thing, and I will have more time and money for WFRP since the people I play with already moved there few months ago.
From the newest reply from Kyle We're-On-The-Brink-of-Bankruptcy-Come-Back-Guys you should probably just cancel out and move on. They're not willing to back down and understand the situation. Now they want us to leave feedback on a new OGL rather than commit to walking back to the OGL 1.0
They're literally just brushing us aside at this point and hoping we fold, it's a familiar behavior of corporations pushed on by careless investors.
Yes they are. It's a common delaying tactic and the survey is just designed to get discourse off of public forums like Twitter, Reddit and Facebook.
First thought on today's (1/18) apology: Too little, too late. They had a lot of time to address the controversy before it got out of control, but they only started to take real action and make statements when they started loosing subscribers and actual money. And then their first apology was snarky and insulting and gaslighting.
Second thought on today's apology: They're still calling the leaked "OGL" 1.1 a draft. We know it wasn't. They're still lying. An apology with a lie is no apology at all.
Third thought on today's apology: WotC, you want our feedback on changes to the OGL? DON'T CHANGE IT AT ALL! Except maybe to add the word "irrevocable" to clause 4 of OGL 1.0a.