Hmm. All those people cancelling their subs...well it seems to have done something. Not a lot, mostly back peddling and gas lighting, but something none the less. Interesting how that works when people work together towards a common goal.
This is in response to all the people who said cancelling and boycotting weren't going to do anything.
I think it's interesting how the leaked OGL wasn't even official, yet I see folks demanding that they won't stop bagging on WotC until a new OGL that meets all their demands IS official. I thought this thread was titled: Boycotting WotC - Not renewing next year unless OGL Changes. Anyone Else? I guess it should have been titled: I want to keep hating on WotC for as long as possible.
Read the articles. This wasn't a "preview" - this was sent WITH A CONTRACT ATTACHED to people with 9 days to sign.
You're ignoring the facts.
That fact still doesn't change the fact that this thread was about canx'ing in order to get WotC to cancel their plans. That was accomplished. Yet, still there's hate. It sounds like the toxic Star Wars fandom around here.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
C. Foster Payne
"If you get to thinkin' you're a person of some influence, try orderin' somebody else's dog around."
The plans aren't cancelled. The main thing, pulling the rug out from OGL 1.0a still remains. They only said already published books won't be affected. They did not say anything about future books. So continuing the boycott is actually a good idea to keep the pressure up. I am mostly gamemastering, thus I am a multiplier for any games I run. D&D is currently off that list. I've been running D&D games for 30 years. Not anymore.
To me this whole thing feels a lot like one of the big 20 publishing companies didn't like the idea of paying royalties for material copy/pasted from the SRD.
Instead of negotiating with WOTC (which we know was possible by Kickstarter bragging about getting a discount) they claimed that WOTC was out to kill all small/indie and free 3rd party content.
Instead of pushing for a boycott of the 'Hasbro' side of the company -eg the toys, mini's, etc. people where encouraged to cancel DNDBeyond who were only recently acquired by WOTC and had nothing to do with the ODL.
This happened even after WOTC responded in December to clarify that the OGL did NOT apply to free content or patron funding.
They also confirmed that Free Homebrew, charity steams, cosplay, fanart and websites all fell under the Fan Use Policy which is their free non-commercial licence agreement.
The OGL only ever applied to copying the ruleset published under the SRD.
Which as Legal Eagle pointed out was 100% true.
But then the 1.1 Leak happened which people then used to claim as "proof" that WOTC was evil, lying and out to force every homebrewer to 'register and report to WOTC'.
WOTC have now clearly stated OGL1.1 was a early draft.
Using standard numbering conversation version numbers 1.1 is given to the FIRST draft, meaning there's likely a 1.2, 1.3 etc that came after it. This lines up with WOTC confirming the problematic wording was clarified in later versions to confirm that they did not have the right to 3rd party original works.
Once again WOTC confirmed that the OGL licence only applied to PAID content using the SRD nor did it apply to VTT like Roll20.
Which again is true, as Legal Eagle points out They only own the "rules as written" the D20 system can not be owned by anyone.
So the 3rd party publishers WON because the hate they generated caused WOTC to drop the royalties entirely.
Yet even after winning people are still complaining that WOTC still can't be trusted and calling them the liars?
When at any point those 3rd party publishers could release a spell called 'Firebomb' that did the exact same damage as Fireball but had slightly different wording.
Sell it for 1 million dollars and never pay a cent to WOTC.
The never needed the OGL 1.1 licence which is why they are now promising to make their own version of a 'OpenRPG' licence.
Why do this now and not any time in the last 20 years that would have avoided the entire problem in the first place?
Seeing how many people are bragging about buying Pathfinder to 'reward them' while claiming they will never trust WOTC again the "Cancel WOTC" campaign clearly worked. Yet to figure out who was lying, you need to look at who profited from the 'drama' it created.
Alberta Banana@TheRealAlberta: Good News! I finally brought Zangief back from the Dead :D :D :D Also I'M A LITCH FOR REAL! Downside may have ruined 60% of Athas in the process... sigh... I'll fix it tomorrow. LVL20 Litch, Sorcerer King of the Second Banana Age of Athas, Survivor of the Tomb of Horrors, Backwards Spellcaster, Undead Warlock Patron to Jane with a army of Simulacrum clones.
They have got to add a clause saying that they will not readd the changes that pissed people off. That they are open to litigation if they do. Before they can even dream of those people coming back. And some people are just gone forever. Tough.
I'm just done. So much BS has been happening over the years with this game, this is just the tipping point. I'm done. There are SO many other things out there I can spend my money on out there now, why bother?
This isn't the same game I grew up with in the early 80s. It's devolved into a woke, make-sure-no-feels-bad-about-anything, money-grab to appeal to whatever the shareholders feel will bring them the most money. You can post all the press releases you want telling us how you "feel our pain" and "understand where we're coming from", but in the end, you and Hasbro will ALWAYS do what brings in the most money. That's capitalism, I get it... in fact, we all do! But, that's the beauty of money... we can spend it anywhere we like! But for me it won't be with WotC or Hasbro anymore. I had my fun... but those old days are behind me now. I will cherish those old golden era days. The fact alone that the word "Race" (or any word) has turned into such a huge debate in a GAME should tell you everything or that you have to make sure everyone feels safe during game play?! Are you kidding me... IT"S A ******* GAME! You safe-spacers can have it now... those of us who actually lived and breathed the real persecution of claiming we play DnD can walk away knowing you have NO idea what it really means to support a company and have them turn on you like this. You can cry and whine all you want now about the rules language or how an OGL reads... I'm glad it's finally over for me. Such a sad downfall to a great game. Gary would be crying. WofC and Hasbro... your are true ****ERS!
The plans aren't cancelled. The main thing, pulling the rug out from OGL 1.0a still remains. They only said already published books won't be affected. They did not say anything about future books. So continuing the boycott is actually a good idea to keep the pressure up. I am mostly gamemastering, thus I am a multiplier for any games I run. D&D is currently off that list. I've been running D&D games for 30 years. Not anymore.
Why wouldn't they revoke 1.0a at this point, or at least try to? You lot have already committed to jumping ship to ORC and never trusting them again. So what's the benefit in keeping it?
The plans aren't cancelled. The main thing, pulling the rug out from OGL 1.0a still remains. They only said already published books won't be affected. They did not say anything about future books. So continuing the boycott is actually a good idea to keep the pressure up. I am mostly gamemastering, thus I am a multiplier for any games I run. D&D is currently off that list. I've been running D&D games for 30 years. Not anymore.
Why wouldn't they revoke 1.0a at this point, or at least try to? You lot have already committed to jumping ship to ORC and never trusting them again. So what's the benefit in keeping it?
Less investor panic because savvy investors know that 'revoking 1.0a' means 'asking for possible lawsuits'.
Furthermore: only one of said lawsuits (and there will be several) has to be successful for WOTC to lose big time, since prescident will then be set. THey have functionally infinite kicks at the can thanks to hasbro's legal teams and money... but it only takes one miss, so it still isn't a smart move.
The plans aren't cancelled. The main thing, pulling the rug out from OGL 1.0a still remains. They only said already published books won't be affected. They did not say anything about future books. So continuing the boycott is actually a good idea to keep the pressure up. I am mostly gamemastering, thus I am a multiplier for any games I run. D&D is currently off that list. I've been running D&D games for 30 years. Not anymore.
Why wouldn't they revoke 1.0a at this point, or at least try to? You lot have already committed to jumping ship to ORC and never trusting them again. So what's the benefit in keeping it?
Less investor panic because savvy investors know that 'revoking 1.0a' means 'asking for possible lawsuits'.
There'll likely be lawsuits with ORC anyway. Again, ship has sailed. And even if there won't be - hell, even if there are and WotC *loses* - nobodys sticking with 1.0a long-term anyway. One way or another, it's over.
Because every day they release the revocable version of 1.0a they are losing market share. It isn’t just costing them subscriptions now - take a look at it how much interest there is in pathfinder. (And the back order time on several sites for the books.)
Brand loyalty is sticky, but angry customers look for alternatives. Paizo is demonstrating a masterclass in how to increase their share while Hasbro is demonstrating the total opposite.
people who switch, won’t be likely to come back. If that doesn’t scare the investor class, then they are not paying attention.
It's funny, I swore off learning Pathfinder because I didn't have a need to.
Today I just watched a series of videos on the basics, and tomorrow I'm joining my first campaign for it. Funny how quickly this convinced me to jump off.
After DMing for 2+ decades with D&D, I will no longer. I have cancelled by subscription and do not intend to renew it, nor do the players at my table. Even if they were to change the OGL to something more reasonable or revert today to 1.0. I wouldn't except their next editions if they gave them to me as a gift. Dungeons & Dragons sculpted my youth and adulthood but my allegiance is to the communities of storytelling, not fealty to a soul-less company that, if the emails of WOTC/Hasbros employees are to be believed, only see the community and creators as obstacles to their money.
I don't want to sound cavalier and suggest it's the confines of the next edition and it's licenses that are the focus of my abandonment of D&D. It is, in totality, a product of WotC/Hasbros and what I can only interpret as a long storied history of predatory business practices. GSL, MtG loot boxes. You can't walk back trust and public good will. Especially with the condescension and gaslighting we see in the responses they have posted to legitimate public outrage. They called it "A few angry voices." They said it's because we were "Scared." No, we're angry.
Dungeons & Dragons is a framework propped up by the creative passions and genius of a community WotC/Hasbros inherited. A community they have disparaged and often attempted to take advantage of. And they will bide their time and wait to do it again.
But they are nothing without us. And maybe soon, that's what they'll be at this rate.
Going to the FLGS tomorrow to look at some other TTRPGs, kick the tires, etc. I'm not 100% committed to jumping ship quite yet, but WotC response didn't exactly shut down the garbage mashers on the detention level, they just sprayed a little Febreze in there and called it good.
As some of the level headed, objective posts from a week ago said, need to calm emotions and look at things clearly. Not base knee-jerk reactions on conjecture, so I gave it careful observation, read every released document, post and video. (Painful by the way, some are incredibly useful, others are just pure vitriol. Still it's always good to see the entire picture and every point of view.
To sum: There is a clear effort to prioritize profits and revenue over the well-being and health of the game and the community. In my opinion, the community has and always will be the heart soul and spirit of the game. After all, without the community, there IS no game. It seems to me that the strategic decisions on how to approach the game are being made in a business model that does not understand the client and the customer base, has no apparent concern for the history and the long-term ramifications, and above all else, looks at the client as simply a mechanism to generate money.
But after a week of just watching, with rising concern about the ramifications, then came the official announcement about the OGL, the intentions and the plans. And you cannot help but get a very weird, oily feel for what it seems to say. It just feels all wrong. It has a brittle spin-doctor feel, and you walk away with the intense sensation you get holding food that has a strange unusual texture you associate with something that's one the wrong side of going bad. As someone who has worked in corporate spaces for over 2 decades - it most definitely feels like the messages crafted with the intent that you want to say something but don't want to be held liable, and make a declaration without really committing to it. I know, I've seen it before.
I have every single published hardcopy 5e book. I have almost 2/3rds of every digital copy on Beyond. I was really excited to see what an integrated VTT was going to look like. I was even mildly hyped for the OneDND playtests. I have been playing, GMing and been a rabid fan of the brand for 35 years. My wife, children and I play every single week on a campaign that has spanned 4 years. My friends of 40 years play every week - some get up at ungodly hours in a different country just to play. I was a Master-Tier subscriber for 4 and a half years.
After a week of watching and weighing, it has come to this: I refuse to pay another cent to a space that only seems to see me ONLY as a cash machine. Business is most certainly business. But if there's anything you always think of in a business - to have a business you have to have customers. And if you only see your customers as cash machines and have no concern for their well-being, then that is not a business worth supporting.
No matter what the holding company does now, this is a tainted brand. Yes, they may backpedal. It's entirely possible that it may even revert to status quo. But guess what, the whole experience has made me realize: it's the GAME that matters. Not the mechanics, not the brand, not the name. The GAME that my family, friends and colleagues enjoy, laugh, scream, panic, outwit, cry and utterly love over and over again.
Never thought the day would come when I would look at alternatives. But look I have, and there's better options it turns out. And ended my subscription last Friday.
For those who choose to stay after all this, no hard feelings, honestly. You choose based on what you feel is best for you. Isn't that the point?
For those who choose to move elsewhere, to a new ecosystem, I will see you on the other side.
I canceled mine the moment the leak hit. Sadly, my sub doesn't end until August. After I read the fan content policy, I gave up any thoughts of uploading anything at all campaign related.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
The age of OGL is over. The Time of the ORC has come!
The moment that WotC declares OGL 1.0a "de-authorized", "revoked" or any such nonsense is the moment I release as much content as possible under OGL 1.0a and say, "Sue me WotC". OGL1.0a cannot be revoked. If thousands of us do it, the countersuit will be a class action suit.
Supposedly, you're allowed to request a refund for unused months. I've seen it floating around that some people have managed to ask for a partial reversal. They want to take our HB friend's money unfairly, let's do the same to them.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
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Hmm. All those people cancelling their subs...well it seems to have done something. Not a lot, mostly back peddling and gas lighting, but something none the less. Interesting how that works when people work together towards a common goal.
This is in response to all the people who said cancelling and boycotting weren't going to do anything.
That fact still doesn't change the fact that this thread was about canx'ing in order to get WotC to cancel their plans. That was accomplished. Yet, still there's hate. It sounds like the toxic Star Wars fandom around here.
C. Foster Payne
"If you get to thinkin' you're a person of some influence, try orderin' somebody else's dog around."
The plans aren't cancelled. The main thing, pulling the rug out from OGL 1.0a still remains. They only said already published books won't be affected. They did not say anything about future books. So continuing the boycott is actually a good idea to keep the pressure up. I am mostly gamemastering, thus I am a multiplier for any games I run. D&D is currently off that list. I've been running D&D games for 30 years. Not anymore.
To me this whole thing feels a lot like one of the big 20 publishing companies didn't like the idea of paying royalties for material copy/pasted from the SRD.
Instead of negotiating with WOTC (which we know was possible by Kickstarter bragging about getting a discount) they claimed that WOTC was out to kill all small/indie and free 3rd party content.
Instead of pushing for a boycott of the 'Hasbro' side of the company -eg the toys, mini's, etc. people where encouraged to cancel DNDBeyond who were only recently acquired by WOTC and had nothing to do with the ODL.
This happened even after WOTC responded in December to clarify that the OGL did NOT apply to free content or patron funding.
They also confirmed that Free Homebrew, charity steams, cosplay, fanart and websites all fell under the Fan Use Policy which is their free non-commercial licence agreement.
The OGL only ever applied to copying the ruleset published under the SRD.
Which as Legal Eagle pointed out was 100% true.
But then the 1.1 Leak happened which people then used to claim as "proof" that WOTC was evil, lying and out to force every homebrewer to 'register and report to WOTC'.
WOTC have now clearly stated OGL1.1 was a early draft.
Using standard numbering conversation version numbers 1.1 is given to the FIRST draft, meaning there's likely a 1.2, 1.3 etc that came after it. This lines up with WOTC confirming the problematic wording was clarified in later versions to confirm that they did not have the right to 3rd party original works.
Once again WOTC confirmed that the OGL licence only applied to PAID content using the SRD nor did it apply to VTT like Roll20.
Which again is true, as Legal Eagle points out They only own the "rules as written" the D20 system can not be owned by anyone.
So the 3rd party publishers WON because the hate they generated caused WOTC to drop the royalties entirely.
Yet even after winning people are still complaining that WOTC still can't be trusted and calling them the liars?
When at any point those 3rd party publishers could release a spell called 'Firebomb' that did the exact same damage as Fireball but had slightly different wording.
Sell it for 1 million dollars and never pay a cent to WOTC.
The never needed the OGL 1.1 licence which is why they are now promising to make their own version of a 'OpenRPG' licence.
Why do this now and not any time in the last 20 years that would have avoided the entire problem in the first place?
Seeing how many people are bragging about buying Pathfinder to 'reward them' while claiming they will never trust WOTC again the "Cancel WOTC" campaign clearly worked. Yet to figure out who was lying, you need to look at who profited from the 'drama' it created.
Alberta Banana @TheRealAlberta: Good News! I finally brought Zangief back from the Dead :D :D :D Also I'M A LITCH FOR REAL! Downside may have ruined 60% of Athas in the process... sigh... I'll fix it tomorrow.
LVL20 Litch, Sorcerer King of the Second Banana Age of Athas, Survivor of the Tomb of Horrors, Backwards Spellcaster, Undead Warlock Patron to Jane with a army of Simulacrum clones.
They have got to add a clause saying that they will not readd the changes that pissed people off. That they are open to litigation if they do. Before they can even dream of those people coming back. And some people are just gone forever. Tough.
I'm just done. So much BS has been happening over the years with this game, this is just the tipping point. I'm done. There are SO many other things out there I can spend my money on out there now, why bother?
This isn't the same game I grew up with in the early 80s. It's devolved into a woke, make-sure-no-feels-bad-about-anything, money-grab to appeal to whatever the shareholders feel will bring them the most money. You can post all the press releases you want telling us how you "feel our pain" and "understand where we're coming from", but in the end, you and Hasbro will ALWAYS do what brings in the most money. That's capitalism, I get it... in fact, we all do! But, that's the beauty of money... we can spend it anywhere we like! But for me it won't be with WotC or Hasbro anymore. I had my fun... but those old days are behind me now. I will cherish those old golden era days. The fact alone that the word "Race" (or any word) has turned into such a huge debate in a GAME should tell you everything or that you have to make sure everyone feels safe during game play?! Are you kidding me... IT"S A ******* GAME! You safe-spacers can have it now... those of us who actually lived and breathed the real persecution of claiming we play DnD can walk away knowing you have NO idea what it really means to support a company and have them turn on you like this. You can cry and whine all you want now about the rules language or how an OGL reads... I'm glad it's finally over for me. Such a sad downfall to a great game. Gary would be crying. WofC and Hasbro... your are true ****ERS!
Can't wait until we find out who signed the "sweetheart" deals!
Who profited?? Right, because no one has ever told a lie in a desperate attempt to prevent further damage...
Sorry you wasted all of that time
Why wouldn't they revoke 1.0a at this point, or at least try to? You lot have already committed to jumping ship to ORC and never trusting them again. So what's the benefit in keeping it?
Furthermore: only one of said lawsuits (and there will be several) has to be successful for WOTC to lose big time, since prescident will then be set. THey have functionally infinite kicks at the can thanks to hasbro's legal teams and money... but it only takes one miss, so it still isn't a smart move.
There'll likely be lawsuits with ORC anyway. Again, ship has sailed. And even if there won't be - hell, even if there are and WotC *loses* - nobodys sticking with 1.0a long-term anyway. One way or another, it's over.
Because every day they release the revocable version of 1.0a they are losing market share. It isn’t just costing them subscriptions now - take a look at it how much interest there is in pathfinder. (And the back order time on several sites for the books.)
Brand loyalty is sticky, but angry customers look for alternatives. Paizo is demonstrating a masterclass in how to increase their share while Hasbro is demonstrating the total opposite.
people who switch, won’t be likely to come back. If that doesn’t scare the investor class, then they are not paying attention.
It's funny, I swore off learning Pathfinder because I didn't have a need to.
Today I just watched a series of videos on the basics, and tomorrow I'm joining my first campaign for it. Funny how quickly this convinced me to jump off.
After DMing for 2+ decades with D&D, I will no longer. I have cancelled by subscription and do not intend to renew it, nor do the players at my table. Even if they were to change the OGL to something more reasonable or revert today to 1.0. I wouldn't except their next editions if they gave them to me as a gift. Dungeons & Dragons sculpted my youth and adulthood but my allegiance is to the communities of storytelling, not fealty to a soul-less company that, if the emails of WOTC/Hasbros employees are to be believed, only see the community and creators as obstacles to their money.
I don't want to sound cavalier and suggest it's the confines of the next edition and it's licenses that are the focus of my abandonment of D&D.
It is, in totality, a product of WotC/Hasbros and what I can only interpret as a long storied history of predatory business practices. GSL, MtG loot boxes.
You can't walk back trust and public good will.
Especially with the condescension and gaslighting we see in the responses they have posted to legitimate public outrage.
They called it "A few angry voices."
They said it's because we were "Scared."
No, we're angry.
Dungeons & Dragons is a framework propped up by the creative passions and genius of a community WotC/Hasbros inherited.
A community they have disparaged and often attempted to take advantage of.
And they will bide their time and wait to do it again.
But they are nothing without us.
And maybe soon, that's what they'll be at this rate.
Going to the FLGS tomorrow to look at some other TTRPGs, kick the tires, etc. I'm not 100% committed to jumping ship quite yet, but WotC response didn't exactly shut down the garbage mashers on the detention level, they just sprayed a little Febreze in there and called it good.
As some of the level headed, objective posts from a week ago said, need to calm emotions and look at things clearly. Not base knee-jerk reactions on conjecture, so I gave it careful observation, read every released document, post and video. (Painful by the way, some are incredibly useful, others are just pure vitriol. Still it's always good to see the entire picture and every point of view.
To sum: There is a clear effort to prioritize profits and revenue over the well-being and health of the game and the community. In my opinion, the community has and always will be the heart soul and spirit of the game. After all, without the community, there IS no game. It seems to me that the strategic decisions on how to approach the game are being made in a business model that does not understand the client and the customer base, has no apparent concern for the history and the long-term ramifications, and above all else, looks at the client as simply a mechanism to generate money.
But after a week of just watching, with rising concern about the ramifications, then came the official announcement about the OGL, the intentions and the plans. And you cannot help but get a very weird, oily feel for what it seems to say. It just feels all wrong. It has a brittle spin-doctor feel, and you walk away with the intense sensation you get holding food that has a strange unusual texture you associate with something that's one the wrong side of going bad. As someone who has worked in corporate spaces for over 2 decades - it most definitely feels like the messages crafted with the intent that you want to say something but don't want to be held liable, and make a declaration without really committing to it. I know, I've seen it before.
I have every single published hardcopy 5e book. I have almost 2/3rds of every digital copy on Beyond. I was really excited to see what an integrated VTT was going to look like. I was even mildly hyped for the OneDND playtests. I have been playing, GMing and been a rabid fan of the brand for 35 years. My wife, children and I play every single week on a campaign that has spanned 4 years. My friends of 40 years play every week - some get up at ungodly hours in a different country just to play. I was a Master-Tier subscriber for 4 and a half years.
After a week of watching and weighing, it has come to this: I refuse to pay another cent to a space that only seems to see me ONLY as a cash machine. Business is most certainly business. But if there's anything you always think of in a business - to have a business you have to have customers. And if you only see your customers as cash machines and have no concern for their well-being, then that is not a business worth supporting.
No matter what the holding company does now, this is a tainted brand. Yes, they may backpedal. It's entirely possible that it may even revert to status quo. But guess what, the whole experience has made me realize: it's the GAME that matters. Not the mechanics, not the brand, not the name. The GAME that my family, friends and colleagues enjoy, laugh, scream, panic, outwit, cry and utterly love over and over again.
Never thought the day would come when I would look at alternatives. But look I have, and there's better options it turns out. And ended my subscription last Friday.
For those who choose to stay after all this, no hard feelings, honestly. You choose based on what you feel is best for you. Isn't that the point?
For those who choose to move elsewhere, to a new ecosystem, I will see you on the other side.
I canceled mine the moment the leak hit. Sadly, my sub doesn't end until August. After I read the fan content policy, I gave up any thoughts of uploading anything at all campaign related.
The age of OGL is over. The Time of the ORC has come!
The moment that WotC declares OGL 1.0a "de-authorized", "revoked" or any such nonsense is the moment I release as much content as possible under OGL 1.0a and say, "Sue me WotC". OGL1.0a cannot be revoked. If thousands of us do it, the countersuit will be a class action suit.
Supposedly, you're allowed to request a refund for unused months. I've seen it floating around that some people have managed to ask for a partial reversal. They want to take our HB friend's money unfairly, let's do the same to them.