here's my two cents: it's not cute to crack "rolled a 1" jokes in your official statement about something as serious as this.
Yeah; I'm getting really sick of the "Tee hee! How do you do fellow kids!" crap in these statements too; the OGL 1.1 document was lousy with them. Like the bits about them being "concerned" about NTFs/Offensive content, or "Love for the game": it's all a distraction to make the actual duplicitous content buried underneath go down easier to people not reading carefully.
I just want to play D&D. Not pathfinder, BESM, Gurps, Warhammer 40k, or anything else. I don't even use third-party content. Not even Critical Role. I always unselect those options when rolling a character here.
Just D&D.
I'm happy that a great number of players and third-party companies have taken matters into their own hands, to demonstrate how bad the proposed OGL changes are. Let's face it, they didn't just roll a nat 1. They rolled with disadvantage and got nat 1 on both. But, I'm not going anywhere. I'm going to ride out the storm. I've invested way too much money on virtual products here for me to just get up and walk away. As an older retired person, on a relatively fixed income, moving to another game would be far too expensive. I'd quit gaming first. Go get 'em! As for me, I'll be sitting on the sidelines.
the I invested too much money to walk away is never true.
You could start over tomorrow with a brand-new system and be happy. I'm older as well and I'm not going to stop playing DND, but don't say you can't be due to spending some money in the past. 1 single book from many other RPG is more than enough to play an amazing game system by another company. No reason to force yourself to DND just because you spent money on DND in the past. This is true for everything in life.
I would imagine that they will get proactively sued by multiple entities that want to release new 5e content under OGL 1.0a to challenge their right to unauthorize OGL 1.0a.
Otherwise, these 3PP will release content under ORC / Black FlagSRD instead, with Black Flag being based on 5E game mechanics but taking extra care to not break copyright law. Black Flag very possibly will also be compatible with One D&D (assuming One D&D is backwards compatible).
In this situation, I could see Hasbro suing.
And potentially losing, if "you can't copyright game mechanics" holds up.
Which would be catastrophic for them.
And they put themselves in this situation, intentionally.
Since it sounds like WotC is trying to say that OGL 2.0 will stop new content being released under OGL 1.0, can any of executives at WotC and Hasbro tell me why we should trust this statement? Because previously, Wizard's own FAQ on the OGL, posted in 2004 and on their website through at least the end of 2021, stated:
"Q: Can't Wizards of the Coast change the License in a way that I wouldn't like?
A: Yes, it could. However, the License already defines what will happen to content that has been previously distributed using an earlier version, in Section 9. As a result, even if Wizards made a change you disagreed with, you could continue to use an earlier, acceptable version at your option. In other words, there's no reason for Wizards to ever make a change that the community of people using the Open Gaming License would object to, because the community would just ignore the change anyway."
What is WotC doing to demonstrate that they are committed to the statements in their most recent post any more than their last statements? We can certainly wait and see what the OGL 2.0 looks like, but former VP of Wizard of the Coast, Ryan Dancey, the architect of the OGL has said:
"Yeah my public opinion is that Hasbro does not have the power to deauthorize a version of the OGL. If that had been a power that we wanted to reserve for Hasbro, we would have enumerated it in the license. I am on record numerous places in email and blogs and interviews saying that the license could never be revoked."
So how are we supposed to trust that WotC won't try to violate the intended and mutually understand content of future licenses if they think they can get away with it? A company backed by the millions of Hasbro can afford the lawyers and drawn out legal battles that ensure a lot of getting away with it.
(To the non executives of WotC, like those having to moderate these boards, I hope you have a wonderful day.)
I just want to play D&D. Not pathfinder, BESM, Gurps, Warhammer 40k, or anything else. I don't even use third-party content. Not even Critical Role. I always unselect those options when rolling a character here.
Just D&D.
I'm happy that a great number of players and third-party companies have taken matters into their own hands, to demonstrate how bad the proposed OGL changes are. Let's face it, they didn't just roll a nat 1. They rolled with disadvantage and got nat 1 on both. But, I'm not going anywhere. I'm going to ride out the storm. I've invested way too much money on virtual products here for me to just get up and walk away. As an older retired person, on a relatively fixed income, moving to another game would be far too expensive. I'd quit gaming first. Go get 'em! As for me, I'll be sitting on the sidelines.
the I invested too much money to walk away is never true.
You could start over tomorrow with a brand-new system and be happy. I'm older as well and I'm not going to stop playing DND, but don't say you can't be due to spending some money in the past. 1 single book from many other RPG is more than enough to play an amazing game system by another company. No reason to force yourself to DND just because you spent money on DND in the past. This is true for everything in life.
Correct. That’s an example of the Cost Sunk Fallacy, and human beings are the only species on the planet who fall for it.
Pathfinder second edition looks cool. If dnd wants my subscription back its gonna take more than a tee-hee rolled a one joke and half compromise on ridiculous clauses that should have never even been considered. If i cant trust them to keep their word, why would i trust their word now.
I just want to play D&D. Not pathfinder, BESM, Gurps, Warhammer 40k, or anything else. I don't even use third-party content. Not even Critical Role. I always unselect those options when rolling a character here.
Just D&D.
I'm happy that a great number of players and third-party companies have taken matters into their own hands, to demonstrate how bad the proposed OGL changes are. Let's face it, they didn't just roll a nat 1. They rolled with disadvantage and got nat 1 on both. But, I'm not going anywhere. I'm going to ride out the storm. I've invested way too much money on virtual products here for me to just get up and walk away. As an older retired person, on a relatively fixed income, moving to another game would be far too expensive. I'd quit gaming first. Go get 'em! As for me, I'll be sitting on the sidelines.
the I invested too much money to walk away is never true.
You could start over tomorrow with a brand-new system and be happy. I'm older as well and I'm not going to stop playing DND, but don't say you can't be due to spending some money in the past. 1 single book from many other RPG is more than enough to play an amazing game system by another company. No reason to force yourself to DND just because you spent money on DND in the past. This is true for everything in life.
I never said I couldn't. I said I didn't want to. There's a difference. Every bit of money I have right now, that isn't already spoken for, has to go towards home repairs and simply living.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I am an experienced player (approximately 40 years) who is always looking for a group.
I believe most that Brewster's synopsis of the Corporate Lawyers and Top Execs being the ones who fumbled this entire thing. Lawyers overwrite, as they always do, pass it to top execs who nowadays don't understand anything that isn't a chart or graph showing profits and they say "GO!" Now for the last week, it's been the Top Execs getting the feedback from their teams, going "WTF is happening!??!?!?", the lawyers counting their money from what they get paid for such "drafts" and the actual teams working on the products, seeing and hearing it all and wondering what the hell just happened.
Now we have Execs looking like terrified Halflings facing a dragon. Lawyers looking like shady Gnolls, counting their coins. Development team, frowning at Top Execs like a parent whose child has just disappointed them badly.
The bigger the business the farther from the end game the top dogs and decision makers are. In a lot of cases, they don't go down the line with ideas or plans, just throw them out there. The actual teams working the product, or service, or front-line whatever it is, get called in and talked with only when everything blows up or fails on an epic level. Top brass will frequetly then turn to these front line teams, frantically screaming "FIX IT FIX IT!!!"
I think the initial rollout was rushed, typical BIG business buffoonery at it's finest and this statement is a more grounded mind and group trying to first perform some damage control and HOPEFULLY keep a closer eye on the rewriting of the updated OGL. Time will tell for certain how much they "got it" from the feedback, both rational and hysterical. I am patient enough to wait and see.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Talk to your Players.Talk to your DM. If more people used this advice, there would be 24.74% fewer threads on Tactics, Rules and DM discussions.
WotC had one chance to admit the truth in what they're doing, and to announce that the OGL won't change and will be made irrevocable for all future projects. They didn't, and worse they lied to us the community and tried to gaslight us in every sentence of the blog post.
You're done, I will never come back after you seriously just tried to insult the intelligence of the community with this blog post, when we literally came up with the term Rules Lawyering.
Too late, damage done. Trust has dropped to 0%. Any statement they make in the future will be under heavy scrutiny. They said the fan base "won, and we lost because making your voices heard forced us to change our plans. Those people will only be half right. They won—and so did we." WOTC is being spiteful and will find another way to ruin OGL 2.0. Reason enough to not re-subscribe.
Re-reading this thing: holy crap it's full of lies, half-truths and revisionist history to the gills. Like re-crissoning the leaked document a "draft", or pretending they were looking for feedback, or that "Whoopsie! We just misspoke!" No you lying snakes; you didn't "misspeak"; you pay lawyers to go over these things with a fine tooth comb.
Best one though has to be "we pwomise not to steal your stuff! Honest!" ... Am I supposed to clap there WOTC? You're promising to do the bare minimum; that's expected.
Re-reading this thing: holy crap it's full of lies, half-truths and revisionist history to the gills. Like re-crissoning the leaked document a "draft", or pretending they were looking for feedback, or that "Whoopsie! We just misspoke!" No you lying snakes; you didn't "misspeak"; you pay lawyers to go over these things with a fine tooth comb.
Best one though has to be "we pwomise not to steal your stuff! Honest!" ... Am I supposed to clap there WOTC? You're promising to do the bare minimum; that's expected.
This is WOTC's version of the Blizzcon 2018 Diablo Immortal redshirt guy reaction. The house is still burning and their just doing damage control at this point. Probably hoping we all forget this ever happened months from now.
For a game that encourages people to embrace character death and new character creation, I don't really understand why so many people are so stuck on their sunk costs. Heath Robinson made a really good point in his live stream the other day, players don't have nearly as much sunk cost in the D&D as creators do.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
--------- Ryval 0 “Magic is distilled laziness. Put that on my gravestone.”
Ive bought so much shit from wotc, so much digital content, subscribed for so long, GM'd games with dndbeyond
I cant believe i spent so much, and i cant even pawn it off now. All this stuff i spent so much on is basically trash, why would i use it when i can just switch to pathfinder
If i could give my legendary digital content bundle to one of you people i would.
Ive bought so much shit from wotc, so much digital content, subscribed for so long, GM'd games with dndbeyond
I cant believe i spent so much, and i cant even pawn it off now. All this stuff i spent so much on is basically trash, why would i use it when i can just switch to pathfinder
If i could give my legendary digital content bundle to one of you people i would.
And bingo: that's why WOTC wants everyone locked into their proprietary VTT program... Because you can never "re-sell" digital content, and they can sell the same thing an infinite number of times at no additional manufacturing cost. Furthermore: they can make it so that every player has to buy everything instead of a DM buying the sourcebooks. Want to play that race/class/subclass? Pony up the money! Want to have that Orc bard token? Money! Want to have spells in your spellbook? Better get ready to buy each and every single one, for every new character! Remember when the EA executive mused about selling virtual bullets? That's where WOTC is headed.
Same, spent a bucket load, iñve got close to,if not 100% of the book shelf, 50% of the digital equivalent. D&d has been around for ages and will be for a while yet. I a, going to use what íve paid for (íve enough content for two decades of games). Stop giving wotc money (end my subscription here) and give money forward to 3PP.
íll admit onednd has not Beene ticking me at all to date, íve not even looked at it as I am over invested in 5e. Also are they adjusting the rules to make there VTT more viable. I already 8and my group) use map tools and support that community as we cańt all affor, or want to pay for a VTT.
DRAFTS AREN'T PRESENTED TO PARTNERS WITH LEGALY BINDING CONTRACTS! Business 101.
Right??? Which makes this "Our plan was always to solicit the input of our community before any update to the OGL" part of their 'apology' just one of many blatant lies in that post. They already sent out the contracts and the LIVE (not draft) OGL to enough verifiable people in the past few weeks I'm left wondering what kind of time travel device they must have in a back room some where that allows them to get this 'community input' *after the fact.* As far as 'spin' goes I can get more earnest revolutions out of my D4.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
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here's my two cents: it's not cute to crack "rolled a 1" jokes in your official statement about something as serious as this.
Yeah; I'm getting really sick of the "Tee hee! How do you do fellow kids!" crap in these statements too; the OGL 1.1 document was lousy with them. Like the bits about them being "concerned" about NTFs/Offensive content, or "Love for the game": it's all a distraction to make the actual duplicitous content buried underneath go down easier to people not reading carefully.
In the words of my generation: SILENCE BRAND!
the I invested too much money to walk away is never true.
You could start over tomorrow with a brand-new system and be happy. I'm older as well and I'm not going to stop playing DND, but don't say you can't be due to spending some money in the past. 1 single book from many other RPG is more than enough to play an amazing game system by another company. No reason to force yourself to DND just because you spent money on DND in the past. This is true for everything in life.
"But Rich, the lawyers said it was fine!"
Since it sounds like WotC is trying to say that OGL 2.0 will stop new content being released under OGL 1.0, can any of executives at WotC and Hasbro tell me why we should trust this statement? Because previously, Wizard's own FAQ on the OGL, posted in 2004 and on their website through at least the end of 2021, stated:
"Q: Can't Wizards of the Coast change the License in a way that I wouldn't like?
A: Yes, it could. However, the License already defines what will happen to content that has been previously distributed using an earlier version, in Section 9. As a result, even if Wizards made a change you disagreed with, you could continue to use an earlier, acceptable version at your option. In other words, there's no reason for Wizards to ever make a change that the community of people using the Open Gaming License would object to, because the community would just ignore the change anyway."
What is WotC doing to demonstrate that they are committed to the statements in their most recent post any more than their last statements? We can certainly wait and see what the OGL 2.0 looks like, but former VP of Wizard of the Coast, Ryan Dancey, the architect of the OGL has said:
"Yeah my public opinion is that Hasbro does not have the power to deauthorize a version of the OGL. If that had been a power that we wanted to reserve for Hasbro, we would have enumerated it in the license. I am on record numerous places in email and blogs and interviews saying that the license could never be revoked."
So how are we supposed to trust that WotC won't try to violate the intended and mutually understand content of future licenses if they think they can get away with it? A company backed by the millions of Hasbro can afford the lawyers and drawn out legal battles that ensure a lot of getting away with it.
(To the non executives of WotC, like those having to moderate these boards, I hope you have a wonderful day.)
[Edited to add relevant links]
https://web.archive.org/web/20211127200600/http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=d20/oglfaq/20040123f
https://www.enworld.org/threads/ryan-dancey-hasbro-cannot-deauthorize-ogl.694196/
Correct. That’s an example of the Cost Sunk Fallacy, and human beings are the only species on the planet who fall for it.
Creating Epic Boons on DDB
DDB Buyers' Guide
Hardcovers, DDB & You
Content Troubleshooting
Pathfinder second edition looks cool. If dnd wants my subscription back its gonna take more than a tee-hee rolled a one joke and half compromise on ridiculous clauses that should have never even been considered. If i cant trust them to keep their word, why would i trust their word now.
I never said I couldn't. I said I didn't want to. There's a difference. Every bit of money I have right now, that isn't already spoken for, has to go towards home repairs and simply living.
I am an experienced player (approximately 40 years) who is always looking for a group.
WotC has lost our trust. No amount of backpedaling is enough. It was good while it lasted. Time to try other games.
I believe most that Brewster's synopsis of the Corporate Lawyers and Top Execs being the ones who fumbled this entire thing. Lawyers overwrite, as they always do, pass it to top execs who nowadays don't understand anything that isn't a chart or graph showing profits and they say "GO!" Now for the last week, it's been the Top Execs getting the feedback from their teams, going "WTF is happening!??!?!?", the lawyers counting their money from what they get paid for such "drafts" and the actual teams working on the products, seeing and hearing it all and wondering what the hell just happened.
Now we have Execs looking like terrified Halflings facing a dragon.
Lawyers looking like shady Gnolls, counting their coins.
Development team, frowning at Top Execs like a parent whose child has just disappointed them badly.
The bigger the business the farther from the end game the top dogs and decision makers are. In a lot of cases, they don't go down the line with ideas or plans, just throw them out there. The actual teams working the product, or service, or front-line whatever it is, get called in and talked with only when everything blows up or fails on an epic level. Top brass will frequetly then turn to these front line teams, frantically screaming "FIX IT FIX IT!!!"
I think the initial rollout was rushed, typical BIG business buffoonery at it's finest and this statement is a more grounded mind and group trying to first perform some damage control and HOPEFULLY keep a closer eye on the rewriting of the updated OGL. Time will tell for certain how much they "got it" from the feedback, both rational and hysterical. I am patient enough to wait and see.
Talk to your Players. Talk to your DM. If more people used this advice, there would be 24.74% fewer threads on Tactics, Rules and DM discussions.
WotC had one chance to admit the truth in what they're doing, and to announce that the OGL won't change and will be made irrevocable for all future projects. They didn't, and worse they lied to us the community and tried to gaslight us in every sentence of the blog post.
You're done, I will never come back after you seriously just tried to insult the intelligence of the community with this blog post, when we literally came up with the term Rules Lawyering.
Too late, damage done. Trust has dropped to 0%. Any statement they make in the future will be under heavy scrutiny. They said the fan base "won, and we lost because making your voices heard forced us to change our plans. Those people will only be half right. They won—and so did we." WOTC is being spiteful and will find another way to ruin OGL 2.0. Reason enough to not re-subscribe.
Re-reading this thing: holy crap it's full of lies, half-truths and revisionist history to the gills. Like re-crissoning the leaked document a "draft", or pretending they were looking for feedback, or that "Whoopsie! We just misspoke!" No you lying snakes; you didn't "misspeak"; you pay lawyers to go over these things with a fine tooth comb.
Best one though has to be "we pwomise not to steal your stuff! Honest!" ... Am I supposed to clap there WOTC? You're promising to do the bare minimum; that's expected.
This is WOTC's version of the Blizzcon 2018 Diablo Immortal redshirt guy reaction. The house is still burning and their just doing damage control at this point. Probably hoping we all forget this ever happened months from now.
For a game that encourages people to embrace character death and new character creation, I don't really understand why so many people are so stuck on their sunk costs. Heath Robinson made a really good point in his live stream the other day, players don't have nearly as much sunk cost in the D&D as creators do.
---------
Ryval 0
“Magic is distilled laziness. Put that on my gravestone.”
Ive bought so much shit from wotc, so much digital content, subscribed for so long, GM'd games with dndbeyond
I cant believe i spent so much, and i cant even pawn it off now. All this stuff i spent so much on is basically trash, why would i use it when i can just switch to pathfinder
If i could give my legendary digital content bundle to one of you people i would.
And bingo: that's why WOTC wants everyone locked into their proprietary VTT program... Because you can never "re-sell" digital content, and they can sell the same thing an infinite number of times at no additional manufacturing cost. Furthermore: they can make it so that every player has to buy everything instead of a DM buying the sourcebooks. Want to play that race/class/subclass? Pony up the money! Want to have that Orc bard token? Money! Want to have spells in your spellbook? Better get ready to buy each and every single one, for every new character! Remember when the EA executive mused about selling virtual bullets? That's where WOTC is headed.
Dont believe their lies, they are trying to placate us.. Cancelling subscription until they correct their priorities..
Same, spent a bucket load, iñve got close to,if not 100% of the book shelf, 50% of the digital equivalent. D&d has been around for ages and will be for a while yet. I a, going to use what íve paid for (íve enough content for two decades of games). Stop giving wotc money (end my subscription here) and give money forward to 3PP.
íll admit onednd has not Beene ticking me at all to date, íve not even looked at it as I am over invested in 5e. Also are they adjusting the rules to make there VTT more viable. I already 8and my group) use map tools and support that community as we cańt all affor, or want to pay for a VTT.
Right??? Which makes this "Our plan was always to solicit the input of our community before any update to the OGL" part of their 'apology' just one of many blatant lies in that post. They already sent out the contracts and the LIVE (not draft) OGL to enough verifiable people in the past few weeks I'm left wondering what kind of time travel device they must have in a back room some where that allows them to get this 'community input' *after the fact.*
As far as 'spin' goes I can get more earnest revolutions out of my D4.