And is in extremely early development. No one knows when it will come out. And until it does, 5e is the only option 3rd party creators have. I honestly think that D&D has enough casuals who don't care about any of this to survive even the entire hardcore community leaving, and they won't all leave if WotC doesn't do something stupid again. So leaving 5e at this particular point in time only hurts 3rd party creators, and of course WotC, but WotC will pull through, 3PP has much fewer resources for that.
You do realize that Pathfinder 2e can easily start using the ORC license. So could Cypher, FATE, or any other game that chooses to do so. The ORC (or any open source license) gives third parties the stable environment to create without fear of costly legal actions.
If you're done with 5e, I'm not gonna stop you. Be done. Sign out of your account and take your leave, enjoy your games in whichever system you decide to try out next. All I'm asking for is a reduction in the constant pointless spite that's happening right now.
Hilarious that the people who invaded the hobby that was kept alive by us older players, who pissed and moaned about "gatekeeping" are now the ones telling those who don't like what is being done to them to pound sand. Gatekeep much? Congratulations, you turned into the very thing you complained about.
I am not sure "Hilarious that the people who joined the hobby and noticed that a lot of the older players are rude as hell and trying to dictate the 'right' way way to play the game (while apparently not knowing their own game's history) and told people they should not be rude in a manner that harmed the game are now the ones still telling people to not be rude in a manner that harms the game" is as cutting a retort as you seemed to think it was when you typed it out.
There is a level of consistency there--a level of trying to protect the hobby from those who put animosity over playing, who would rather attack others than build something together. There is not a transformation into "the very thing you complained about", but rather an infection of hate in this game that still does not dissipate.
I forget, was it my buying every sourcebook and paying for a master level sub when I was hating WotC? Or was it when I was running multiple campaigns of D and D? Or was it only when WotC decided to start using underhanded tactics to destroy the third party creators who have added a lot to my games? Come to think of it, the ONLY source of animosity is coming from the malicious actions of WotC.
I don't want to stop my subscription. it makes my life easier. I can share content with my players and make unlimited characters to see how different ideas come together. I already owned many hundreds of dollars in DDB products, plus physical copies of all of them. It's going to cost me a lot of money and effort to use a different system, or it's going to take a lot more effort to play D and D without using DDB. None of this is a good thing from my point of view. But since the response on the 13th, I have spent almost $250 on various rule books to decide which system to switch to. And I will need to spend a ton of time teaching my players the new one.
So while you think white knighting for WotC is protecting the hobby, ask yourself if I am being needlessly hateful. Because if it was needless, would I go to all of this expense and effort? Or does that indicate that I feel a very intense need?
Perhaps, and I am only suggesting a possibility, protecting the hobby doesn't mean protecting WotC. perhaps, and this is only suggesting a possibility, D and D isn't the hobby. Perhaps, and this one is the big reach so I am sorry for even suggesting it, but perhaps, role playing games are the hobby. And this time I'm not suggesting, WotC is not role playing games. They are simply one source among many.
Your outlook is overly nihilistic. But just to play along, let's say it's 3.5 million bucks in actual subscriptions or in that ballpack. Does that number matter to WOTC?
You better believe it. All day, every day. That's a reliable, renewable source of significant year over year revenue that is *lost.* Poof. Gone.
It's also not even including the number of those accounts that were, or would have been, buying other products through DNDB.
It matters. Don't believe it? Watch what happens next.
I am confident that number number of dollars lost will be far less that 3.5 million. I would even go so far as to say that I would be shocked if it reached half that amount. What I am trying to do is illustrate how petty in size this uproar is. Even is an absolutely insane and crazy world in which every. single. one. of the people who signed the petition had a master tier subscription (which can't even be true just by the numbers), and every. single. one. of them cancelled, it would amount to a minor inconvenience to WotC. Even in this absolutely bonkers case where everyone who did as little as signing their name saying they didn't like OGL 2.0 was willing to put their money behind their words and cancel their subscription, it still is less than a third of a percent of WotC's net worth.
If anything, a better way of estimating the total loss would be in terms of ratio to people who signed their name compared to all D&D players. With 12 million D&DBeyond accounts, that means that about 0.55% of people signed the form, probably lower given that not all D&D players have a D&DBeyond account. But regardless, that is our number. There is no reason to believe that these people spend more money on D&D than the people who did not sign, so we're probably looking at, at most, a reduction in 0.55% of WotC's sales in all categories including books, subscriptions, etc if everyone boycotts. So again, not a large percentage at all. And you can't claim this time that, "oh, but there's still books and stuff," because this is simply less players=less sales.
Regarding the comment about nihilism: I would not say it is nihilistic to be strategic. Nihilism is believing that everything is pointless. I am merely evaluating the situation and realizing that, not matter how much I want OGL 1.0a back, my action is going to get it back any sooner. If they give it back to us, it will be because of high-profile people leaving, not the masses. In light of that, I am not telling anyone not to leave. I am telling people not to falsely advertise this mission as anything that is likely to succeed. I am telling people not to tell other people that if they harm themselves enough they will get OGL 1.0a back, because that is simply destructive. I acknowledge that there are times to act, but also acknowledge that sometimes we are simply outnumbers and outgunned and the best way forward is not brute force which would not only be futile but also extreme harmful. What I don't want is people telling everyone that we are facing and enemy we can defeat when it is obvious that we will loose the battle: doing so would lead to large numbers of losses, and so is not morally acceptable to me. If you want to run into a battle you are likely to loose I'm not going to stop you, but I don't want to to bring others with you if you are telling them you are likely to win.
I am guessing you didn't read anything about the investor call where they talked about the low earnings and their belief that the brand is under-monetized? Assuming that's true, let me explain: investors aren't happy because the profit levels are low. WotC management promised that they are going to increase profits. And now they are moving the wrong direction on that. Sure, it's not a huge chunk of the value of the company, but it doesn't have to be. It simply needs to cause them to miss on their promises to investors. So yes, WotC cares about the subs because it is a harbinger of other losses that will cause investors to revolt. And stock price is how execs make most of their money.
Some people want no OGL 2.0, and just straight revert to 1.0a
Some people want to see an apology from management with the retraction
Some people want to see people fired
Some people will never play 5e and want to watch WotC burn
People who want 5 probably weren't subscribers to begin with, and honestly that rhetoric is unhelpful. If there's nothing WotC can do to bring you back, what motivation do they have to change at all? And if WotC is unwilling to change, this isn't a boycott - it's just a mob dancing around a fire.
As for the rest of us, we need to get on the same page. If we want WotC to change, we have to be both open to the idea that a change might bring us back and have the same demand so WotC know what they have to do.
I will take 2 through 4, please. If 2 isn't possible, a 1.0b version with tiny changes to address specific issues and the irrevocable nature of the license codified will be acceptable. I'm not greedy, but I won't give my money to bad actors and this WotC executive management has shown that they are very bad actors who will keep trying to use devious, underhanded tactics to destroy anything in their path and eliminate competition. So they do have to go.
There is no going back to 1.0a. That is just not happening, so asking for that is the same as asking WotC to disband, they will never do that. Best case scenario is a good 2.0. And the only way to get that is by showing WotC we will leave if we don't get it, NOT by telling WotC we will never come back. D&D is not the whole hobby but it IS 90% of it. I have a group of hardcore gamers who have been gaming for 10 years plus and none of them want to switch to something else. We've tried, but 5e is what we want.
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DM for life by choice, biggest fan of D&D specifically.
There is no going back to 1.0a. That is just not happening, so asking for that is the same as asking WotC to disband, they will never do that. Best case scenario is a good 2.0. And the only way to get that is by showing WotC we will leave if we don't get it, NOT by telling WotC we will never come back. D&D is not the whole hobby but it IS 90% of it. I have a group of hardcore gamers who have been gaming for 10 years plus and none of them want to switch to something else. We've tried, but 5e is what we want.
If Cynthia Williams could be provided with a face saving version of events she could tell the investors pretty much everything would be possible. If not it becomes much more difficult. But all is not lost until they publish something basically 1.1 (referring to the content, does not matter under what label, such as seemingly 2.0 atm) and all third parties have to leave for good. Right now they are preparing because everything points at them having to. If they had a real choice things might still work out different. That would pretty much only require WotC leadership to figure out a way to tell investors to tell that they can exist as the big gorilla in the room while open source exists -- a thing that took MS decades, but they got there. Maybe Cynthia and Chris should ask a few former colleagues how you do that. Windows 11 has a Linux system (https://learn.microsoft.com/de-de/windows/wsl/install). And MS is one of the biggest C++ contributors (C++ is an ISO standard, hardly any way to be more open than that).
1.1 has already been in use as presented to content creators with an expectation to sign. Sure there has now been a relegation of 1.1 to disuse but surely we're now talking about 1.2.
Perhaps it can be described as OGL 1.1 (abandoned) or something like that. It was put into use. It wasn't just a "draft". We all know that.
A word to the wise on the OGL situation: if you have decided you will NEVER BUY FROM HASBROZARDS AGAIN and are busily whipping everyone you can into a zealous fervor of spite and fury seeking to do as much damage to Wizards as you can? You are not helping.
The community, together, put enough pressure on Wizards to get them to rethink their approach and pull back on some of their most egregious overreach. That is Good. We all did it, or at least we earned ground. The whole idea was to get Wizards to change their behavior or they'd lose their customers. Here's the rub - if you decide you're already a Lost Customer and absolutely nothing Wizards could ever do would woo you back, and you're just here to keep spewing invective aimed at everyone involved?
Wizards has absolutely no reason to listen to you or pay you any heed. You're already a write-off. There's no point in giving you the time of day. Your rabid snarling is not "pressure", it's just pointless noise. Everybody has a course of action they can take to apply pressure - cancel their subscription. Do that if you wish to do so, by all means. But keep in mind that if you want Wizards to reverse their course and change their actions, you have to be willing to entertain the possibility of continuing to do business with them should they do what you ask. This recent frothing riot over the Jan 13th Statement is beyond ridiculous. Yes, the statement is in Corpospeak. News flash: they're a corporation. They're gonna speak Corpospeak, Corpospeak exists for a reason. We all hate it, but we can't change it.
Be angry. Anger helps! You should be angry! Directed, focused anger won us some major concessions! But spite is worse than useless. Spite will do nothing but poison the entire process and make any further compromise or gaining of ground impossible. All you're doing when you ragepost endless spite in every thread in GD is making the forums a terrible place to be and hurting the community that's trying to band together and make changes happen.
Please. Calm down. Breathe. Have some water. And remember that if you continue to beat the dog over and over again after it's tried and tried to do what you want, eventually the dog will stop caring and bite you.
If it was a powerless dog you'd be correct. If it is a multi-Billion LLC with institutional investors you don't need to hold back, but should use all legal means of attack possible.
It is precisely because of Hasbro and Wizards' multi-Billion size that Yueri made this post--they are large enough that they do not have to grovel over lost causes. They are not small businesses--if a customer says "I am going to leave for good" a small business cannot afford that loss and might bend over backwards to bring that person back. Hasbro? Why would they care? They have enough brand recognition and inertia behind them that, when someone burns a bridge, they do not need to build that bridge back.
They care about the people who crossed over the bridge out of Wizards land--the folks who are saying from the other side "hey, you can bring us back, but you have to earn it." Those are worthwhile data points to Hasbro. To use Yueri's terms, those people might be "angry" but they are not "spiteful"--they're still firmly in the realm of potential customers.
A mutli-billion dollar entity is very likely to change course if they see a large amount of angry, but likely customers who would return to the fold. They are not going to change course and spend their efforts rebuilding a bridge to someone who is unlikely to cross the bridge once built. They do not need to--they can let that person be functionally dead and it will not hit their bottom line all that hard.
And that is literally what Yeuri was saying in their post--be angry, make your anger known, cancel your subscription, use all sensible means of attack possible... just do not cross that line into being a useless distraction that drowns out the voices which will actually make a difference. At that point, when you are functionally dead, get out of the way, for you are not helping. All you are doing is causing the voices of the dead--who Hasbro/Wizards will not listen to--to drown out the voices of the living--who they absolutely will.
As someone who bought the starter set about very recently, completely unaware of this issue, ''Rabid Hyenas'' are precisely the users who brought me attention to what is an anti-consumer company. As a 30yo software dev with a stable partner (10+ years) and no kids, I'm a BIG spender on my hobbies. I spend money on things I don't even use most of the time, just because I like how a book cover looks on my library. We are halfway through the started kit, and before reading this thread, I legitimately had every single official 5e D&D book already ordered on Amazon. After reading this thread, I have cancelled my Amazon order, and I'm looking into other publishers.
I can assure you, forums/twitter on fire are useful to affecting their bottomline.
As someone who bought the starter set about very recently, completely unaware of this issue, ''Rabid Hyenas'' are precisely the users who brought me attention to what is an anti-consumer company. As a 30yo software dev with a stable partner (10+ years) and no kids, I'm a BIG spender on my hobbies. I spend money on things I don't even use most of the time, just because I like how a book cover looks on my library. We are halfway through the started kit, and before reading this thread, I legitimately had every single official 5e D&D book already ordered on Amazon. After reading this thread, I have cancelled my Amazon order, and I'm looking into other publishers.
I can assure you, forums/twitter on fire are useful to affecting their bottomline.
Curious exactly which 3rd party content you are worried about protecting? And since you are barely started playing, it seems, having just the starter kit, how you are so quick to jump on the bandwagon?
Not saying that you are necessarily wrong, just that it sounds a bit knee jerk.
At current time, any 3rd party content, considering the leaks state that they can make any changes with a 30 day notice.
Having seen the same story of a company turning against it's own community, these kinds of threads are only ever beneficial to said company, and never to the community. The only reason this thread even exists in the first place is because WOTC was caught pants down with a paper on hand saying "sign within 10 days or else" and handing it to publishers. If they were never caught, these contracts, or most of them, would have been signed and no ''concessions'' would have been made in which to ignore the ''we can change whatever we like'' clauses. This was a ''done deal''. Players just fortuitously sneezed at the right time when they were being shot behind their back, dodging the bullet to the head.
A company as big as WOTC does not care for civil argumentation, or argumentation at all. It only cares about bottomlines. People unsubbing affects this. Forums on fire turning away potential newcomers, thus affecting projections affect this. MSM and influencers outside of the usual sphere of the game noticing the burning forums/twitter mentions makes even more people notice, influencing newcomers and existing players alike. The more this goes on, what do you think are the odds that top results in people's google/yt searches for ''should I play D&D in 2023" will be about how WOTC is trying to screw up an agreement that helps the community?
As someone who bought the starter set about very recently, completely unaware of this issue, ''Rabid Hyenas'' are precisely the users who brought me attention to what is an anti-consumer company. As a 30yo software dev with a stable partner (10+ years) and no kids, I'm a BIG spender on my hobbies. I spend money on things I don't even use most of the time, just because I like how a book cover looks on my library. We are halfway through the started kit, and before reading this thread, I legitimately had every single official 5e D&D book already ordered on Amazon. After reading this thread, I have cancelled my Amazon order, and I'm looking into other publishers.
I can assure you, forums/twitter on fire are useful to affecting their bottomline.
Curious exactly which 3rd party content you are worried about protecting? And since you are barely started playing, it seems, having just the starter kit, how you are so quick to jump on the bandwagon?
Not saying that you are necessarily wrong, just that it sounds a bit knee jerk.
I think what you missed is that he called them anti-consumer. I would assume he's talking about the gaslighting and deceit.
Is there, though? That sounds a lot like civility politics to me. Like the backlash isn't acceptable unless it doesn't inconvenience anyone or annoy anyone. The real jerks are the ones complaining, kind of thing.
We're talking about people's jobs here. You understand that spewing vitriol *is* the nice option.
There's a difference between angry "I'm pissed off and I want this to change" invective and spiteful "All I care about is that you fail" invective. Virtually everything I've seen since the statement was released has been the latter sort.
The former invective is productive. It moves the case forward. It lets Wizards know that the speaker is still invested and can be salvaged if they about-face and stop being ****ups.
Nobody gives a shit about the latter invective. It's pointless noise that exists solely to spread sour moods and make the entire process more difficult.
Many people no longer wish for Wizards to correct this mistake. They'd rather watch the whole game burn up and die so they can dance on the ashes and crow about how they were too smart to be fooled by Wizards' lame dumb attempt to fix things. I don't give one soggy ferret fart about those people's wrong bad opinion - and yes, I will go right out and say that spiteful "All I want is for Wizards to fail" bullshit is a Wrong Bad Opinion. The game deserves better than to burn up and die out of misguided spite.
I'm pissed off. I want this situation to change. I want Wizards to stop trying to be our buddies with idiotic "we all win" crap and to get to work on printing a document that doesn' make everyone who looks at it cry. If they do that? I will be mollified. For all its warts I still like and am invested in this system and this service and I don't want to see them fail.
The people who do can pound sand. And I won't regret telling them to do exactly that.
In confidence that D&D 5e will survive I don't give a care if WotC dies. They've been happy to write others into an unsurvivable position. Others can write further supplements. There's no problem. If there is a backlash against WotC, it's people reacting to their behaviour. Some people may want WotC to repledge as previously (or in reflection of the equivalent from Paizo) or fail.
I've seen zero evidence of an '"All I care about is that you fail" invective' but, if WotC fail to right this situation, I won't care if they fail in the rest. I certainly wouldn't care if the corporation succeeds.
... As a company they aren't actually listening to us, they are listening to their loss in revenue.
Which is exactly why I said that the way to apply pressure was to cancel your subscription, if you had one. Endlessly creating alts and hateposting in every thread in GD is not "pressure". It's just toxicity that's making everybody miserable for no real purpose.
If you're done with 5e, I'm not gonna stop you. Be done. Sign out of your account and take your leave, enjoy your games in whichever system you decide to try out next. All I'm asking for is a reduction in the constant pointless spite that's happening right now.
I am not going to stop playing. I also don’t believe expressing our displeasure is in anyway hatesposting. Attack the statement and not the people posting it. I have been playing since the mid 70’s, but I am not going to let WotC get away with the garbage they are trying to distribute. I was told, while serving in the military, the squeaky wheel gets the grease. What we need to do is to let WotC know that we really don’t need them to play the game. We need to get their attention by the only means we can, by reducing their coin purse. Not calling them on a bad decision is just as destructive. Corporations only make changes when there is an outpouring of descent and opposition via speech and by removing revenue. D&D will survive this. It’s the players that keep D&D viable not WotC or Hasbro.
If you don’t want to read peoples frustration, you have the power to ignore it.
Canceling subscriptions is a GREAT way to get Wizard's attention. What the OP is talking about are the people who are saying there's nothing Wizards can do that will ever redeem themselves and that they will never receive another penny from said people.
When Wizards finally releases the new OGL, some of us will actually take a look and re-evaluate the situation. Maybe Wizards will not deserve another penny, and maybe they will have bent enough to the community's outrage to deserve a second change. I won't know until I see the document.
But I agree with the OP... If you're done with Wizards and there's nothing they can do to change you mind, then leave. Go with God; I hope you find what you're looking for.
I can say that after becoming more informed on this issue have have changed my mind on some WotC products. I was thinking about dropping a bunch of $$$ on MtG cards, starting a weekly MtG draft game that was planed on running for 16 weeks but I am going to put that on hold or abandon it entirely (maybe I will just use old cards or maybe we will just play something else). But to me right now it does sound like the right move in response to the proposed OGL (yes even tough it was reworked).
I was thinking about dropping a bunch of $$$ on MtG cards, starting a weekly MtG draft game that was planed on running for 16 weeks but I am going to put that on hold or abandon it entirely (maybe I will just use old cards or maybe we will just play something else).
Consider making a cube -- it's a very popular way to draft multiple events with the same card pool. One of my friends likes to make cubes with custom cards he designs, which is also a fun option. You can do it for pretty cheap, too, if you're cool with proxies. And you might as well be, because Wizards is selling them now. There are a lot of existing cubes to choose from, from old nostalgia stuff, to crazy high power stuff, to funky multiplayer, and more. Wizards has even made their own cubes you can copy.
... As a company they aren't actually listening to us, they are listening to their loss in revenue.
Which is exactly why I said that the way to apply pressure was to cancel your subscription, if you had one. Endlessly creating alts and hateposting in every thread in GD is not "pressure". It's just toxicity that's making everybody miserable for no real purpose.
If you're done with 5e, I'm not gonna stop you. Be done. Sign out of your account and take your leave, enjoy your games in whichever system you decide to try out next. All I'm asking for is a reduction in the constant pointless spite that's happening right now.
I am not going to stop playing. I also don’t believe expressing our displeasure is in anyway hatesposting. Attack the statement and not the people posting it. I have been playing since the mid 70’s, but I am not going to let WotC get away with the garbage they are trying to distribute. I was told, while serving in the military, the squeaky wheel gets the grease. What we need to do is to let WotC know that we really don’t need them to play the game. We need to get their attention by the only means we can, by reducing their coin purse. Not calling them on a bad decision is just as destructive. Corporations only make changes when there is an outpouring of descent and opposition via speech and by removing revenue. D&D will survive this. It’s the players that keep D&D viable not WotC or Hasbro.
If you don’t want to read peoples frustration, you have the power to ignore it.
Canceling subscriptions is a GREAT way to get Wizard's attention. What the OP is talking about are the people who are saying there's nothing Wizards can do that will ever redeem themselves and that they will never receive another penny from said people.
When Wizards finally releases the new OGL, some of us will actually take a look and re-evaluate the situation. Maybe Wizards will not deserve another penny, and maybe they will have bent enough to the community's outrage to deserve a second change. I won't know until I see the document.
But I agree with the OP... If you're done with Wizards and there's nothing they can do to change you mind, then leave. Go with God; I hope you find what you're looking for.
not just that, but there are folk out there outright attacking folk in forums, who dont react with the whole "im leaving dnd forever" sort of reaction, and doing the very same in dms, calling them names and shit
I was thinking about dropping a bunch of $$$ on MtG cards, starting a weekly MtG draft game that was planed on running for 16 weeks but I am going to put that on hold or abandon it entirely (maybe I will just use old cards or maybe we will just play something else).
Consider making a cube -- it's a very popular way to draft multiple events with the same card pool. One of my friends likes to make cubes with custom cards he designs, which is also a fun option. You can do it for pretty cheap, too, if you're cool with proxies. And you might as well be, because Wizards is selling them now. There are a lot of existing cubes to choose from, from old nostalgia stuff, to crazy high power stuff, to funky multiplayer, and more. Wizards has even made their own cubes you can copy.
Thanks, I started playing back in the late 90's and have quite a few cards and people I know started creating their own cards around 2000 (from simple putting stickers over MtG cards to having them printed at a print shop or using their own software and printers).
But it looks like now people just do not even want to play and I know I can use the $$$ for other stuff.
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You do realize that Pathfinder 2e can easily start using the ORC license. So could Cypher, FATE, or any other game that chooses to do so. The ORC (or any open source license) gives third parties the stable environment to create without fear of costly legal actions.
I forget, was it my buying every sourcebook and paying for a master level sub when I was hating WotC? Or was it when I was running multiple campaigns of D and D? Or was it only when WotC decided to start using underhanded tactics to destroy the third party creators who have added a lot to my games? Come to think of it, the ONLY source of animosity is coming from the malicious actions of WotC.
I don't want to stop my subscription. it makes my life easier. I can share content with my players and make unlimited characters to see how different ideas come together. I already owned many hundreds of dollars in DDB products, plus physical copies of all of them. It's going to cost me a lot of money and effort to use a different system, or it's going to take a lot more effort to play D and D without using DDB. None of this is a good thing from my point of view. But since the response on the 13th, I have spent almost $250 on various rule books to decide which system to switch to. And I will need to spend a ton of time teaching my players the new one.
So while you think white knighting for WotC is protecting the hobby, ask yourself if I am being needlessly hateful. Because if it was needless, would I go to all of this expense and effort? Or does that indicate that I feel a very intense need?
Perhaps, and I am only suggesting a possibility, protecting the hobby doesn't mean protecting WotC. perhaps, and this is only suggesting a possibility, D and D isn't the hobby. Perhaps, and this one is the big reach so I am sorry for even suggesting it, but perhaps, role playing games are the hobby. And this time I'm not suggesting, WotC is not role playing games. They are simply one source among many.
I am guessing you didn't read anything about the investor call where they talked about the low earnings and their belief that the brand is under-monetized? Assuming that's true, let me explain: investors aren't happy because the profit levels are low. WotC management promised that they are going to increase profits. And now they are moving the wrong direction on that. Sure, it's not a huge chunk of the value of the company, but it doesn't have to be. It simply needs to cause them to miss on their promises to investors. So yes, WotC cares about the subs because it is a harbinger of other losses that will cause investors to revolt. And stock price is how execs make most of their money.
I will take 2 through 4, please. If 2 isn't possible, a 1.0b version with tiny changes to address specific issues and the irrevocable nature of the license codified will be acceptable. I'm not greedy, but I won't give my money to bad actors and this WotC executive management has shown that they are very bad actors who will keep trying to use devious, underhanded tactics to destroy anything in their path and eliminate competition. So they do have to go.
There is no going back to 1.0a. That is just not happening, so asking for that is the same as asking WotC to disband, they will never do that. Best case scenario is a good 2.0. And the only way to get that is by showing WotC we will leave if we don't get it, NOT by telling WotC we will never come back. D&D is not the whole hobby but it IS 90% of it. I have a group of hardcore gamers who have been gaming for 10 years plus and none of them want to switch to something else. We've tried, but 5e is what we want.
DM for life by choice, biggest fan of D&D specifically.
If Cynthia Williams could be provided with a face saving version of events she could tell the investors pretty much everything would be possible. If not it becomes much more difficult. But all is not lost until they publish something basically 1.1 (referring to the content, does not matter under what label, such as seemingly 2.0 atm) and all third parties have to leave for good. Right now they are preparing because everything points at them having to. If they had a real choice things might still work out different. That would pretty much only require WotC leadership to figure out a way to tell investors to tell that they can exist as the big gorilla in the room while open source exists -- a thing that took MS decades, but they got there. Maybe Cynthia and Chris should ask a few former colleagues how you do that. Windows 11 has a Linux system (https://learn.microsoft.com/de-de/windows/wsl/install). And MS is one of the biggest C++ contributors (C++ is an ISO standard, hardly any way to be more open than that).
1.1 has already been in use as presented to content creators with an expectation to sign. Sure there has now been a relegation of 1.1 to disuse but surely we're now talking about 1.2.
Perhaps it can be described as OGL 1.1 (abandoned) or something like that. It was put into use. It wasn't just a "draft". We all know that.
OGL 1.1 was an Open Gaming Licence agreement that was proposed and in effect put on the table. That's history.
As someone who bought the starter set about very recently, completely unaware of this issue, ''Rabid Hyenas'' are precisely the users who brought me attention to what is an anti-consumer company. As a 30yo software dev with a stable partner (10+ years) and no kids, I'm a BIG spender on my hobbies. I spend money on things I don't even use most of the time, just because I like how a book cover looks on my library. We are halfway through the started kit, and before reading this thread, I legitimately had every single official 5e D&D book already ordered on Amazon. After reading this thread, I have cancelled my Amazon order, and I'm looking into other publishers.
I can assure you, forums/twitter on fire are useful to affecting their bottomline.
BoringBard's long and tedious posts somehow manage to enrapture audiences. How? Because he used Charm Person, the #1 bard spell!
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Ever wanted to talk about your parties' worst mistakes? Do so HERE. What's your favorite class, why? Share & explain
HERE.At current time, any 3rd party content, considering the leaks state that they can make any changes with a 30 day notice.
Having seen the same story of a company turning against it's own community, these kinds of threads are only ever beneficial to said company, and never to the community. The only reason this thread even exists in the first place is because WOTC was caught pants down with a paper on hand saying "sign within 10 days or else" and handing it to publishers. If they were never caught, these contracts, or most of them, would have been signed and no ''concessions'' would have been made in which to ignore the ''we can change whatever we like'' clauses. This was a ''done deal''. Players just fortuitously sneezed at the right time when they were being shot behind their back, dodging the bullet to the head.
A company as big as WOTC does not care for civil argumentation, or argumentation at all. It only cares about bottomlines. People unsubbing affects this. Forums on fire turning away potential newcomers, thus affecting projections affect this. MSM and influencers outside of the usual sphere of the game noticing the burning forums/twitter mentions makes even more people notice, influencing newcomers and existing players alike. The more this goes on, what do you think are the odds that top results in people's google/yt searches for ''should I play D&D in 2023" will be about how WOTC is trying to screw up an agreement that helps the community?
I think what you missed is that he called them anti-consumer. I would assume he's talking about the gaslighting and deceit.
+1. Glad to see some sense.
In confidence that D&D 5e will survive I don't give a care if WotC dies. They've been happy to write others into an unsurvivable position. Others can write further supplements. There's no problem. If there is a backlash against WotC, it's people reacting to their behaviour. Some people may want WotC to repledge as previously (or in reflection of the equivalent from Paizo) or fail.
I've seen zero evidence of an '"All I care about is that you fail" invective' but, if WotC fail to right this situation, I won't care if they fail in the rest. I certainly wouldn't care if the corporation succeeds.
Canceling subscriptions is a GREAT way to get Wizard's attention. What the OP is talking about are the people who are saying there's nothing Wizards can do that will ever redeem themselves and that they will never receive another penny from said people.
When Wizards finally releases the new OGL, some of us will actually take a look and re-evaluate the situation. Maybe Wizards will not deserve another penny, and maybe they will have bent enough to the community's outrage to deserve a second change. I won't know until I see the document.
But I agree with the OP... If you're done with Wizards and there's nothing they can do to change you mind, then leave. Go with God; I hope you find what you're looking for.
I can say that after becoming more informed on this issue have have changed my mind on some WotC products. I was thinking about dropping a bunch of $$$ on MtG cards, starting a weekly MtG draft game that was planed on running for 16 weeks but I am going to put that on hold or abandon it entirely (maybe I will just use old cards or maybe we will just play something else). But to me right now it does sound like the right move in response to the proposed OGL (yes even tough it was reworked).
I do hope WotC and their 3pp work stuff out.
Consider making a cube -- it's a very popular way to draft multiple events with the same card pool. One of my friends likes to make cubes with custom cards he designs, which is also a fun option. You can do it for pretty cheap, too, if you're cool with proxies. And you might as well be, because Wizards is selling them now. There are a lot of existing cubes to choose from, from old nostalgia stuff, to crazy high power stuff, to funky multiplayer, and more. Wizards has even made their own cubes you can copy.
not just that, but there are folk out there outright attacking folk in forums, who dont react with the whole "im leaving dnd forever" sort of reaction, and doing the very same in dms, calling them names and shit
we dont need that kind of craziness as well
Thanks, I started playing back in the late 90's and have quite a few cards and people I know started creating their own cards around 2000 (from simple putting stickers over MtG cards to having them printed at a print shop or using their own software and printers).
But it looks like now people just do not even want to play and I know I can use the $$$ for other stuff.