This is no victory, this is just evidence that WotC doesn’t give a 💩 about 5e anymore and they’re already dumping everything into 1DD which will in no way be covered under OGL1.0a.
But that's up to them. I mean, the win is that they're not going to touch OGL 1.0a, which was what the community was asking for.
And they have also included the SRD 5.1 in CC, which can no longer be reversed.
What they do with One D&D is up to them. And we'll see how it turns out. 4e was put in GSL and it was a flop. We'll see what happens with One D&D. If One D&D is released under a license whose terms are acceptable to publishers who publish third-party content, we will see third-party content. If they're not acceptable, hardly anyone will put out third-party content for One D&D. And the consumer will decide if it is worth buying that edition, or if he prefers to stick with 5e.
It is a victory. And a greater victory than anyone expected, dare I say.
Don’t you understand that all those 3PPs will be out of work in two years unless 1DD/6e/whatever they call it has an OGL?!? This was a pyrrhic “victory.”
This is no victory, this is just evidence that WotC doesn’t give a 💩 about 5e anymore and they’re already dumping everything into 1DD which will in no way be covered under OGL1.0a.
I agree, but this is not the Armageddon.
Of course they wll try new shenanigans around ODD / 6E. Either there will be no 6.0 SRD, or they will try to enforce a new, more restrictive OGL2.0 around 6.0.
Who cares?
It will be 4.0 fiasco repeated, nobody cares about the new edition, maybe there will be a Paizo 2.0 competitor around the block...
After the a few years the "masterminds" of this course will leave WotC, a new management team will arrive, there will be a DnD 7E SRD under ORC / CC / whatever... and the whole cycle will be restarted.
Or, they could point out that it's one of the risks of doing things "Open Source", and that they'll be taking all steps available to them to prevent the product from associating itself with DnD, preventing it from being carried in stores anywhere (by making sure everyone knows what it is), and watching like hawks for any other issues that may allow them to destroy that product in court.
[REDACTED]
I don’t think anyone will really get the traction to be some breakout success story publishing the dreck we’re worried about. I just expect some firebrand looking for something to rail against will dig one of those pieces up and make a lot of noise for a few weeks.
Clearly you are unaware that bigoted groups like the proud boys, etc. use online D&D as a recruiting method.
Unfortunately, I can confirm this. Back when I was first getting involved with 5e in 2017, I had the misfortune of running into a forum where a white supremacist was spouting their bullshit about how their group is the "true" core of D&D, and how anyone that didn't adhere to their racist trash were parasites to the hobby. Now fortunately, there were a couple people willing to push back and call them out on their trash, but it really made me think twice at the time about how deep I wanted to get involved in the hobby.
Since neither the OGL 1.0a nor the CC permit direct association with Dungeons & Dragons, and since WotC can create whatever policies they like for getting the right to say "compatible with D&D" or using the trademarked ampersand, etc., there really is no way for bad actors legally to associate with D&D.
Untouched means 1.0a will remain intact for D&D SRD 5.1 but D&D 6e will be released with no OGL or a very restrictive one. Wait and see.
That is fine, it means OneDND will have to be a better product with better product offerings/support than anything else out there. It also means DNDBeyond will most likely "drop" 5.1 support in the future as well. Well within their rights.
This is no victory, this is just evidence that WotC doesn’t give a 💩 about 5e anymore and they’re already dumping everything into 1DD which will in no way be covered under OGL1.0a.
I agree, but this is not the Armageddon.
Of course they wll try new shenanigans around ODD / 6E. Either there will be no 6.0 SRD, or they will try to enforce a new, more restrictive OGL2.0 around 6.0.
Who cares?
It will be 4.0 fiasco repeated, nobody cares about the new edition, maybe there will be a Paizo 2.0 competitor around the block...
After the a few years the "masterminds" of this course will leave WotC, a new management team will arrive, there will be a DnD 7E SRD under ORC / CC / whatever... and the whole cycle will be restarted.
Don’t you understand that all those 3PPs will be out of work in two years unless 1DD/6e/whatever they call it has an OGL?!? This was a pyrrhic “victory.”
They will have to put the new SRD under CC again. Otherwise they would only repeat 4.0. People would simple stay with 5e. The deauthorization was the critical part. That can never happen again because CC.
"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." - Benjamin Franklin
I wonder if he’d say the same thing after seeing just how much carnage a handful of people can cause when given the chance to, say, hijack four airplanes
And to suggest that someone will create said product, which has inherent significant start-up costs, then try to circumvent the distributors, well, that assumes someone is willing to create something and expect to lose significant money.
Read up on Ernest Gygax. I think you'd be surprised by the amount of people who publish things like this.
Ernest isn't using the OGL he can make his garbage regardless. The only thing Wizards is able to fight is the use of the name "Star Frontiers" and "TSR"
This is no victory, this is just evidence that WotC doesn’t give a 💩 about 5e anymore and they’re already dumping everything into 1DD which will in no way be covered under OGL1.0a.
But that's up to them. I mean, the win is that they're not going to touch OGL 1.0a, which was what the community was asking for.
And they have also included the SRD 5.1 in CC, which can no longer be reversed.
What they do with One D&D is up to them. And we'll see how it turns out. 4e was put in GSL and it was a flop. We'll see what happens with One D&D. If One D&D is released under a license whose terms are acceptable to publishers who publish third-party content, we will see third-party content. If they're not acceptable, hardly anyone will put out third-party content for One D&D. And the consumer will decide if it is worth buying that edition, or if he prefers to stick with 5e.
It is a victory. And a greater victory than anyone expected, dare I say.
Don’t you understand that all those 3PPs will be out of work in two years unless 1DD/6e/whatever they call it has an OGL?!? This was a pyrrhic “victory.”
I don't think you understand the hobby at all. If OneDND isn't better than 5e, 4e, 3.x, 2e, 1e, AD&D, Expert, or Basic, then there is still space for others... Pathfinder basically is 3.75 and 2e is basically 3.99.
Don’t you understand that all those 3PPs will be out of work in two years unless 1DD/6e/whatever they call it has an OGL?!? This was a pyrrhic “victory.”
Don't you realize that as long as 1DD retains compatibility with 5e, which has been the explicit plan for an extended period, it doesn't matter if the 1DD SRD is issued under more restrictive terms because people can just use 5.1?
Not that I mean to be "that guy"; but this isn't over. <snip> So long as the same executive team is in place, that threat will only sleep like an elder god and not actually be defeated.
I agree with you, but there's only so much that can be done. We don't own WotC or Hasbro. Pushing back verbally and financially on a specific, clearly-negative change is one thing--thinking we're going to dictate who they hire at the highest levels, based on vague collective desires and wishes, is quite another.
I'm heartened by the results the community pushback achieved. So long as we stay vigilant, we keep the snakes in line; that's the eternal price. If in twenty years they try again and the community folds like a cheap suit, going along with everything they demand--then at that point, it was all doomed anyway, and the community deserves what it gets.
I personally think that taking a chance that a few 'bad' books getting through by keeping the 3PP able and secure to produce content is worth the potential down the road. Will someone abuse it, hell yah... but at the same time, what any two people believe is hateful can be complete opposites and I honestly believe (including what I'm putting in this post) there is nothing that is ever said by anyone that doesn't find offense with someone else. Hell, even not saying something can be considered offensive, so it is a darned if you do, darned if you don't scenario. Personally, I'd rather err on the side of the ability to express oneself than live in constant fear of being 'cancelled'.
"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." - Benjamin Franklin
And we have a sterling example of the exact attitude that will cause this "community" to embrace hateful content. "Nobody can decide what 'hateful' is, and you can't ever do anything that won't offend somebody, so why bother trying not to offend people? Publish anything, and let people buy what they want!" I've seen too many people openly support hate, discrimination, bigotry and exclusion on this very website to believe that The Community can do what Kyle asked us to do and defend D&D from this sort of shit.
Guess I better get used to it. Was nice to actually feel like I could safely play the game for a while.
Don’t you understand that all those 3PPs will be out of work in two years unless 1DD/6e/whatever they call it has an OGL?!? This was a pyrrhic “victory.”
They will have to put the new SRD under CC again. Otherwise they would only repeat 4.0. People would simple stay with 5e. The deauthorization was the critical part. That can never happen again because CC.
At this point I’m not really designing for 5e anymore because it’s got such a limited shelf life now. I’m looking ahead and designing for 2024’s edition. But if that’s going to be under a draconian OGL, then I’m hosed. Who gives a 💩 about this dying edition anymore?!?
This is no victory, this is just evidence that WotC doesn’t give a 💩 about 5e anymore and they’re already dumping everything into 1DD which will in no way be covered under OGL1.0a.
But that's up to them. I mean, the win is that they're not going to touch OGL 1.0a, which was what the community was asking for.
And they have also included the SRD 5.1 in CC, which can no longer be reversed.
What they do with One D&D is up to them. And we'll see how it turns out. 4e was put in GSL and it was a flop. We'll see what happens with One D&D. If One D&D is released under a license whose terms are acceptable to publishers who publish third-party content, we will see third-party content. If they're not acceptable, hardly anyone will put out third-party content for One D&D. And the consumer will decide if it is worth buying that edition, or if he prefers to stick with 5e.
It is a victory. And a greater victory than anyone expected, dare I say.
Don’t you understand that all those 3PPs will be out of work in two years unless 1DD/6e/whatever they call it has an OGL?!? This was a pyrrhic “victory.”
No, they can continue releasing material for 5e. SRD 5.1 is on CC, and that's forever. There is no going back. It cannot be cancelled.
If One D&D comes out under an abusive license, those companies will be able to just keep releasing their material for 5e. Something that already happened in 4e, and that led, among other reasons, to the creation of Pathfinder.
In any case, WoTC has no moral obligation to allow third-party content for One D&D. That is a business decision. If they don't want to do it, they are within their rights. And the consumer will decide whether to buy that edition or let it die like they did with 4e.
What they couldn't do was retire OGL 1.0a. They had no right to do that. And besides, it was very unethical. And they won't. And they have also included SRD 5.1 in CC, shielding third-party content for 5e. That's more than I expected, frankly. And a move that should begin to restore WoTC's lost credibility, IMO.
Honestly I have more fear of morality clauses being used as a weapon against the LGBTQ+ and other minority communities than I ever have of those same clauses protecting us. I have already experienced one "charming" parent complain that a school DnD group allowing people to roleplay characters of a different sex to their own was opening the door to what they called "Genderist Ideology Indoctrination".
Since neither the OGL 1.0a nor the CC permit direct association with Dungeons & Dragons, and since WotC can create whatever policies they like for getting the right to say "compatible with D&D" or using the trademarked ampersand, etc., there really is no way for bad actors legally to associate with D&D.
We’re not talking about a court of law, we’re talking about the implications for the court of public opinion.
I understood 5e has been out since around 2014/15. What is the sudden change that has happened in 2023 that will open the doors to a slew of such content. I ask this as I understand a thing was going to change... and didn't change. So it's as it's always been right? So why would bad things suddenly start to happen if there's been no change?
I'm assuming I'm missing some piece of the puzzle that has suddenly changed things for the worst and hoping you (or anyone that knows) can enlighten me?
What changed was an extremely public SNAFU went out through international media about how Wizards of the Coast was trying to replace the OGL with a new one, with one of the main stated reasons for doing so being to close the opening that meant Wizards had no legal recourse to shut down or distance the game from hateful content. Effectively, it was loudly announced to the entire world that D&D has absolutely no protections against hate, exclusionism, and bigotry and the people who champion those "values" are welcome to come into our house and do whatever they like.
Anyone who thinks that's not going to have repercussions is out of their gourd.
While putting the whole SRD in CC is a nice expansion of their already stated plan to release the rules in CC, the only real backtrack was on leaving 1.0a alone which is the bare minimum walk back of a number of terrible ideas.
I look forward to their future announcement on the plans to hamstring VTT competition and still going forward with overly restrictive license (or no license now that nobody trusts them) for 6e.
Partial victory is better than no victory, but let's not treat this as a complete victory and reward them.
This is no victory, this is just evidence that WotC doesn’t give a 💩 about 5e anymore and they’re already dumping everything into 1DD which will in no way be covered under OGL1.0a.
But that's up to them. I mean, the win is that they're not going to touch OGL 1.0a, which was what the community was asking for.
And they have also included the SRD 5.1 in CC, which can no longer be reversed.
What they do with One D&D is up to them. And we'll see how it turns out. 4e was put in GSL and it was a flop. We'll see what happens with One D&D. If One D&D is released under a license whose terms are acceptable to publishers who publish third-party content, we will see third-party content. If they're not acceptable, hardly anyone will put out third-party content for One D&D. And the consumer will decide if it is worth buying that edition, or if he prefers to stick with 5e.
It is a victory. And a greater victory than anyone expected, dare I say.
Don’t you understand that all those 3PPs will be out of work in two years unless 1DD/6e/whatever they call it has an OGL?!? This was a pyrrhic “victory.”
No, they can continue releasing material for 5e. SRD 5.1 is on CC, and that's forever. There is no going back. It cannot be cancelled.
If One D&D comes out under an abusive license, those companies will be able to just keep releasing their material for 5e. Something that already happened in 4e, and that led, among other reasons, to the creation of Pathfinder.
In any case, WoTC has no moral obligation to allow third-party content for One D&D. That is a business decision. If they don't want to do it, they are within their rights. And the consumer will decide whether to buy that edition or let it die like they did with 4e.
What they couldn't do was retire OGL 1.0a. They had no right to do that. And besides, it was very unethical. And they won't. And they have also included SRD 5.1 in CC, shielding third-party content for 5e. That's more than I expected, frankly. And a move that should begin to restore WoTC's lost credibility, IMO.
Don’t you understand that nobody will be spending money on 5e once the new edition comes out?!? Who cares that I’ll be able to release content for an edition that nobody buys anymore for all eternity?!? It’s the next edition I care about. 5e is dying, and nothing to do with it will matter soon.
Don’t you understand that all those 3PPs will be out of work in two years unless 1DD/6e/whatever they call it has an OGL?!? This was a pyrrhic “victory.”
Creating Epic Boons on DDB
DDB Buyers' Guide
Hardcovers, DDB & You
Content Troubleshooting
I agree, but this is not the Armageddon.
Of course they wll try new shenanigans around ODD / 6E. Either there will be no 6.0 SRD, or they will try to enforce a new, more restrictive OGL2.0 around 6.0.
Who cares?
It will be 4.0 fiasco repeated, nobody cares about the new edition, maybe there will be a Paizo 2.0 competitor around the block...
After the a few years the "masterminds" of this course will leave WotC, a new management team will arrive, there will be a DnD 7E SRD under ORC / CC / whatever... and the whole cycle will be restarted.
Unfortunately, I can confirm this. Back when I was first getting involved with 5e in 2017, I had the misfortune of running into a forum where a white supremacist was spouting their bullshit about how their group is the "true" core of D&D, and how anyone that didn't adhere to their racist trash were parasites to the hobby. Now fortunately, there were a couple people willing to push back and call them out on their trash, but it really made me think twice at the time about how deep I wanted to get involved in the hobby.
Since neither the OGL 1.0a nor the CC permit direct association with Dungeons & Dragons, and since WotC can create whatever policies they like for getting the right to say "compatible with D&D" or using the trademarked ampersand, etc., there really is no way for bad actors legally to associate with D&D.
That is fine, it means OneDND will have to be a better product with better product offerings/support than anything else out there. It also means DNDBeyond will most likely "drop" 5.1 support in the future as well. Well within their rights.
As a 3PP, I flippin’ care.
Creating Epic Boons on DDB
DDB Buyers' Guide
Hardcovers, DDB & You
Content Troubleshooting
They will have to put the new SRD under CC again. Otherwise they would only repeat 4.0. People would simple stay with 5e. The deauthorization was the critical part. That can never happen again because CC.
I wonder if he’d say the same thing after seeing just how much carnage a handful of people can cause when given the chance to, say, hijack four airplanes
Ernest isn't using the OGL he can make his garbage regardless. The only thing Wizards is able to fight is the use of the name "Star Frontiers" and "TSR"
I don't think you understand the hobby at all. If OneDND isn't better than 5e, 4e, 3.x, 2e, 1e, AD&D, Expert, or Basic, then there is still space for others... Pathfinder basically is 3.75 and 2e is basically 3.99.
Don't you realize that as long as 1DD retains compatibility with 5e, which has been the explicit plan for an extended period, it doesn't matter if the 1DD SRD is issued under more restrictive terms because people can just use 5.1?
I agree with you, but there's only so much that can be done. We don't own WotC or Hasbro. Pushing back verbally and financially on a specific, clearly-negative change is one thing--thinking we're going to dictate who they hire at the highest levels, based on vague collective desires and wishes, is quite another.
I'm heartened by the results the community pushback achieved. So long as we stay vigilant, we keep the snakes in line; that's the eternal price. If in twenty years they try again and the community folds like a cheap suit, going along with everything they demand--then at that point, it was all doomed anyway, and the community deserves what it gets.
Sterling - V. Human Bard 3 (College of Art) - [Pic] - [Traits] - in Bards: Dragon Heist (w/ Mansion) - Jasper's [Pic] - Sterling's [Sigil]
Tooltips Post (2024 PHB updates) - incl. General Rules
>> New FOW threat & treasure tables: fow-advanced-threat-tables.pdf fow-advanced-treasure-table.pdf
And we have a sterling example of the exact attitude that will cause this "community" to embrace hateful content. "Nobody can decide what 'hateful' is, and you can't ever do anything that won't offend somebody, so why bother trying not to offend people? Publish anything, and let people buy what they want!" I've seen too many people openly support hate, discrimination, bigotry and exclusion on this very website to believe that The Community can do what Kyle asked us to do and defend D&D from this sort of shit.
Guess I better get used to it. Was nice to actually feel like I could safely play the game for a while.
Please do not contact or message me.
At this point I’m not really designing for 5e anymore because it’s got such a limited shelf life now. I’m looking ahead and designing for 2024’s edition. But if that’s going to be under a draconian OGL, then I’m hosed. Who gives a 💩 about this dying edition anymore?!?
Creating Epic Boons on DDB
DDB Buyers' Guide
Hardcovers, DDB & You
Content Troubleshooting
No, they can continue releasing material for 5e. SRD 5.1 is on CC, and that's forever. There is no going back. It cannot be cancelled.
If One D&D comes out under an abusive license, those companies will be able to just keep releasing their material for 5e. Something that already happened in 4e, and that led, among other reasons, to the creation of Pathfinder.
In any case, WoTC has no moral obligation to allow third-party content for One D&D. That is a business decision. If they don't want to do it, they are within their rights. And the consumer will decide whether to buy that edition or let it die like they did with 4e.
What they couldn't do was retire OGL 1.0a. They had no right to do that. And besides, it was very unethical. And they won't. And they have also included SRD 5.1 in CC, shielding third-party content for 5e. That's more than I expected, frankly. And a move that should begin to restore WoTC's lost credibility, IMO.
Honestly I have more fear of morality clauses being used as a weapon against the LGBTQ+ and other minority communities than I ever have of those same clauses protecting us. I have already experienced one "charming" parent complain that a school DnD group allowing people to roleplay characters of a different sex to their own was opening the door to what they called "Genderist Ideology Indoctrination".
We’re not talking about a court of law, we’re talking about the implications for the court of public opinion.
What changed was an extremely public SNAFU went out through international media about how Wizards of the Coast was trying to replace the OGL with a new one, with one of the main stated reasons for doing so being to close the opening that meant Wizards had no legal recourse to shut down or distance the game from hateful content. Effectively, it was loudly announced to the entire world that D&D has absolutely no protections against hate, exclusionism, and bigotry and the people who champion those "values" are welcome to come into our house and do whatever they like.
Anyone who thinks that's not going to have repercussions is out of their gourd.
Please do not contact or message me.
While putting the whole SRD in CC is a nice expansion of their already stated plan to release the rules in CC, the only real backtrack was on leaving 1.0a alone which is the bare minimum walk back of a number of terrible ideas.
I look forward to their future announcement on the plans to hamstring VTT competition and still going forward with overly restrictive license (or no license now that nobody trusts them) for 6e.
Partial victory is better than no victory, but let's not treat this as a complete victory and reward them.
Don’t you understand that nobody will be spending money on 5e once the new edition comes out?!? Who cares that I’ll be able to release content for an edition that nobody buys anymore for all eternity?!? It’s the next edition I care about. 5e is dying, and nothing to do with it will matter soon.
Creating Epic Boons on DDB
DDB Buyers' Guide
Hardcovers, DDB & You
Content Troubleshooting