Are dragons a necessity for dnd or have we moved past the need for a giant fire breathing reptile
i know many a DM who created worlds without them. i respect that... but my world are govened by them. they exists and when i drop them, everytimes i drop them... players gasp in fear and often wonder if the dragon will let them live. its honestly always a fun time when the DM drops a known monster that everyone can relate to. may it be indflayers, beholders, dragons or even owlbears and gelatinous cubes !
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Well perhaps they had a change of use later? When it comes down to it, are the "Dungeons" in D&D actually dungeons according to strict terminology?
That was my point. Next to none of them are. Some might contain a few jail cells, but only as a secondary purpose. Actual dungeons are exceedingly rare in game and always have been.
The Oxford English Dictionary notes that a historic (and contemporary with the time period inspiring D&D) definition of dungeon would have been: “Sometimes (esp. in early use) more generally a castle, or fortress, or stronghold. Now rare.” Or there is this other definition: “A deep, dark place in the sea or the land; a gulf, abyss, or chasm; a cave or cavern.
Between those two definitions, most every D&D dungeon could be considered definitionally a dungeon.
Though, it should also be noted that one does not need historical etymology to justify the usage of Dungeon in this manner - every single D&D dungeon necessarily comports with this other OED definition:
“In a fantasy role-playing game (originally and esp. Dungeons & Dragons): any enclosed environment, most typically a complex of underground vaults, tunnels, etc., in which players seek rewards and dangers; (in later use also) such an environment depicted in a computer game.”
Does a dragon have to be in session or campaign? Of course not. We even had a start set that had an adventure with no dragons in it. It's perfectly valid to play without dragons.
Still, dragons are one of the best and well developed creatures in the game, to the point that I'd say any extended adventure (more than a few levels) should, if it can fit thematically, have a dragon or dragon-like creature in it somewhere. Not having one is like having a zero-magic game - sure, it's doable and might be fun, but there is something missing.
The very first serious combat I ever threw at a party as a DM in 5e was a suped-up wyvern.
Well perhaps they had a change of use later? When it comes down to it, are the "Dungeons" in D&D actually dungeons according to strict terminology?
That was my point. Next to none of them are. Some might contain a few jail cells, but only as a secondary purpose. Actual dungeons are exceedingly rare in game and always have been.
The Oxford English Dictionary notes that a historic (and contemporary with the time period inspiring D&D) definition of dungeon would have been: “Sometimes (esp. in early use) more generally a castle, or fortress, or stronghold. Now rare.” Or there is this other definition: “A deep, dark place in the sea or the land; a gulf, abyss, or chasm; a cave or cavern.
Between those two definitions, most every D&D dungeon could be considered definitionally a dungeon.
Though, it should also be noted that one does not need historical etymology to justify the usage of Dungeon in this manner - every single D&D dungeon necessarily comports with this other OED definition:
“In a fantasy role-playing game (originally and esp. Dungeons & Dragons): any enclosed environment, most typically a complex of underground vaults, tunnels, etc., in which players seek rewards and dangers; (in later use also) such an environment depicted in a computer game.”
Actually from what I am reading it was more from the French Donjon, which was the central tower of a castle (and also where they tended to lock prisoners, due to being the most secure part of the castle). Not seeing the latter FRPG definition at all, however, if that applies it is a matter of the game having added a definition rather than the game having been independently correct in doing so.
You are correct that the word derived from the French and referenced towers or fortifications (all things which can be called a dungeon in the “D&D dungeon crawl sense”). The “sometimes” from the OED exists to show that the definition might be something distinct from the more traditional tower - that a more broad use is permissible and accurate, even if rare. Furthermore, the definition of an abyss or cave system is very directly applicable to many “dungeons” in D&D, and explicitly covers all the “dungeons” made by nature rather than artifice.
As for your not seeing the FRPg definition, I am not sure which dictionary you are using—I am using the Oxford English Dictionary, which stands preeminent among all English dictionaries and which does maintain a degree of independence in terms of what definitions they add.
English is a weird, wonderful, language, the bastard child of dozens of others. Words rarely mean one thing, and they develop new meanings all the time. If the foremost experts on English linguistics say “the usage of dungeon within D&D is both based on historical definitions of the word and is so pervasive that we’ll update the preeminent English dictionary to include it” who are we to argue with their superior expertise?
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i know many a DM who created worlds without them. i respect that...
but my world are govened by them. they exists and when i drop them, everytimes i drop them... players gasp in fear and often wonder if the dragon will let them live.
its honestly always a fun time when the DM drops a known monster that everyone can relate to. may it be indflayers, beholders, dragons or even owlbears and gelatinous cubes !
DM of two gaming groups.
Likes to create stuff.
Check out my homebrew --> Monsters --> Magical Items --> Races --> Subclasses
If you like --> Upvote, If you wanna comment --> Comment
Play by Post Games
--> One Shot Adventure - House of Artwood (DM) (Completed)
In a D&D world it`s possible a lot of Dungeons were originally created as shelters to hide from and avoid the Dragons.
Well perhaps they had a change of use later? When it comes down to it, are the "Dungeons" in D&D actually dungeons according to strict terminology?
The Oxford English Dictionary notes that a historic (and contemporary with the time period inspiring D&D) definition of dungeon would have been: “Sometimes (esp. in early use) more generally a castle, or fortress, or stronghold. Now rare.” Or there is this other definition: “A deep, dark place in the sea or the land; a gulf, abyss, or chasm; a cave or cavern.
Between those two definitions, most every D&D dungeon could be considered definitionally a dungeon.
Though, it should also be noted that one does not need historical etymology to justify the usage of Dungeon in this manner - every single D&D dungeon necessarily comports with this other OED definition:
“In a fantasy role-playing game (originally and esp. Dungeons & Dragons): any enclosed environment, most typically a complex of underground vaults, tunnels, etc., in which players seek rewards and dangers; (in later use also) such an environment depicted in a computer game.”
The very first serious combat I ever threw at a party as a DM in 5e was a suped-up wyvern.
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You are correct that the word derived from the French and referenced towers or fortifications (all things which can be called a dungeon in the “D&D dungeon crawl sense”). The “sometimes” from the OED exists to show that the definition might be something distinct from the more traditional tower - that a more broad use is permissible and accurate, even if rare. Furthermore, the definition of an abyss or cave system is very directly applicable to many “dungeons” in D&D, and explicitly covers all the “dungeons” made by nature rather than artifice.
As for your not seeing the FRPg definition, I am not sure which dictionary you are using—I am using the Oxford English Dictionary, which stands preeminent among all English dictionaries and which does maintain a degree of independence in terms of what definitions they add.
English is a weird, wonderful, language, the bastard child of dozens of others. Words rarely mean one thing, and they develop new meanings all the time. If the foremost experts on English linguistics say “the usage of dungeon within D&D is both based on historical definitions of the word and is so pervasive that we’ll update the preeminent English dictionary to include it” who are we to argue with their superior expertise?