Quote from Skywise1978 >>

I think what helped Psionics make sense in AD&D is that it was introduced in the Dark Sun setting. 

Dark Sun is a desolate wasteland, where the use of arcane magic destroyed the world. Every campaign setting has a source of power for arcane magic and in Dark Sun (in the world of Athas), the source of arcane magical power was the natural world: plants, trees, living things. When a wizard cast a spell, a flower died, a tree died… a PERSON could die. After enough magic was used and the world became a massive desert wasteland, magic was (mostly) outlawed. 

In comes the need for a new and useful magic: enter Psionics. Psionics was all about the use of a power that came from the will of the individual. In an apocalyptic setting, it makes sense for a power like this to develop, since the people who are going to survive in this harsh reality are the people who have the strongest will. When the world is deprived of something, people adapt, they think outside the box, they come up with something new to keep going. In the fantasy world, magic is sort of an assumed necessity (to varying degrees of course). 

Psionics (in my opinion) is simply another type of magic. If it is tacked on to a fantasy world that already has another type of magic (i.e. the traditional Arcane magic found in most settings) , a lot of the beauty that it can hold in helping us create amazing stories gets lost. In most D&D settings I think it is more challenging to bring Psionics in because it is competing with magic systems that are already saturating the system and story. Psionics then suffers because it lacks its own true identity in that situation. The resulting Psionic powers end up being too similar to the spells other classes cast (i.e. disentigrate) and it becomes too difficult to differentiate. 

I will also say that the AD&D system of using Psionics wasn’t the best. However I did appreciate that they came up with another method to use Psionic magic that was different than the Vancian spell casting system we associated with Wizards. I believe that creating a unique system for a new form of magic helps make it feel different when you are using it in the game. It helps give it a new feel and identity. As the 5e devs have said many times, they want the rules to complement the story telling. So I think having a unique rules system for a new form of magic (Psionics in this case) helps make it feel different too while you play. Obviously the problem is that no one wants another set of rules to complicate spell casting. Still, I think it could be important to think about. 

While I assume it possible to add Psionics to the D&D game with another establish system of magic involved, I believe this is why it has been such a challenge. Psionics lacks a true identity when other systems of magic are present. 

 Psionics was in the 1e PHB. Well before dark sun. 

what's new since ad&d and really makes psionics possible in my mind is cantrips: mage hand, produce flame, thaumaturgy, encode thoughts, resistance, friends, etc. if there was one thing i felt was missing from psionics back in the day, it was at-will powers to show off.

give them pile of those and maybe a power budget to expand their effects. that doesn't have to be their entire class identity, but it begins to answer the question of why psionics when magic is available. it allows for lore of characters who use their tk without thinking or struggle to contain their power... which already kinda sounds like a fantasy that the sorcerer class could accommodate. however, it might just be worth exploring 'boring' level-0 powers in ways that results in combat more unique than "fireball but this time from a wand/harp/screwdriver/ankh/crystal."

Quote from Xalthu >>

Quote from Skywise1978 >>

I think what helped Psionics make sense in AD&D is that it was introduced in the Dark Sun setting. 

Dark Sun is a desolate wasteland, where the use of arcane magic destroyed the world. Every campaign setting has a source of power for arcane magic and in Dark Sun (in the world of Athas), the source of arcane magical power was the natural world: plants, trees, living things. When a wizard cast a spell, a flower died, a tree died… a PERSON could die. After enough magic was used and the world became a massive desert wasteland, magic was (mostly) outlawed. 

In comes the need for a new and useful magic: enter Psionics. Psionics was all about the use of a power that came from the will of the individual. In an apocalyptic setting, it makes sense for a power like this to develop, since the people who are going to survive in this harsh reality are the people who have the strongest will. When the world is deprived of something, people adapt, they think outside the box, they come up with something new to keep going. In the fantasy world, magic is sort of an assumed necessity (to varying degrees of course). 

Psionics (in my opinion) is simply another type of magic. If it is tacked on to a fantasy world that already has another type of magic (i.e. the traditional Arcane magic found in most settings) , a lot of the beauty that it can hold in helping us create amazing stories gets lost. In most D&D settings I think it is more challenging to bring Psionics in because it is competing with magic systems that are already saturating the system and story. Psionics then suffers because it lacks its own true identity in that situation. The resulting Psionic powers end up being too similar to the spells other classes cast (i.e. disentigrate) and it becomes too difficult to differentiate. 

I will also say that the AD&D system of using Psionics wasn’t the best. However I did appreciate that they came up with another method to use Psionic magic that was different than the Vancian spell casting system we associated with Wizards. I believe that creating a unique system for a new form of magic helps make it feel different when you are using it in the game. It helps give it a new feel and identity. As the 5e devs have said many times, they want the rules to complement the story telling. So I think having a unique rules system for a new form of magic (Psionics in this case) helps make it feel different too while you play. Obviously the problem is that no one wants another set of rules to complicate spell casting. Still, I think it could be important to think about. 

While I assume it possible to add Psionics to the D&D game with another establish system of magic involved, I believe this is why it has been such a challenge. Psionics lacks a true identity when other systems of magic are present. 

 Psionics was in the 1e PHB. Well before dark sun. 

 from the preface: "...Everything in the ADVANCED DUNGEONS & DRAGONS system has purpose; most of what is found herein is essential to the campaign, and those sections which are not - such as subclasses of characters, psionics, and similar material - are clearly labeled as optional for inclusion." -- player's handbook, 1978

...huh, i for one had no idea it was in the 1e book. wow, all of appendix 1? that certainly wasn't in the 2e book i had!

I see psionics as a narrow branch of the Weave, a kind of innate magical ability, that encompasses everything relating to using the power of your own mind to manipulate the world around you and the minds within it. So, that would include telepathy, psychic damage, the two psionic feats from Tasha's, etc. Any instance of using the power of one's own mind to wield magic or cast spells, rather than any components, magic items, or fonts of magic, is an instance of psionics. It's a powerful and easily-concealed, if rather rare and unreliable, way of accessing the Weave.

In my opinion, psionics as it is now - that is, a disconnected collection of random feats and abilities that characters can occasionally get access to - is a fine way of doing it, especially for a game system which really doesn't focus on such things. It shouldn't be tied to any specific ability scores, character classes, what have you, because psionics isn't some arcane tradition written down in one book somewhere, it's a part of the Weave itself and, by extension, the world as a whole.

So, mechanically, I did finally figure it out in a way that still enables at least a high degree of balance overall, while still retaining the ability for an individual to have significant personal flair.
It scrapped the whole larger system, lol. 

More specifically, it requires putting Magic, Combat, and Psychic abilities all on the same stage, in the same arena of functionality.  SInce D&D is a class based system, that meant finding a way to work it around the classes, and I won't lie, I have been struggling with that paradigm.  The fix, though, is kinda funny, as it has some useful unintended consequences that will please min-maxers.

THe solutions is to treat the special abilities that sub classes give as distinct elements, and to make make spell casting, combat options, and psionics all a part of that same larger "pick a part" deal -- but still use a frame work of classes to structure core competencies.

So you still have a Fighter Rogue, Wizard, Cleric. Each of them has certain set abilities, and each of them gains additional abilities over time that the player chooses from an assortment. Within that assortment are sections -- so maybe your wizard doesn't learn how to do 6th level spells, and instead chooses to learn some secret advanced Pyrokinesis power.

The sections open and closed vary according to level and how one ends up categorizing them (I am opting for 7 groups, it looks like: Disciplines, Core Abilities, Magic, Combat, Secret Knowledge, Esoterica, and Psionics), and that's what cracked things open. It makes subclasses more about "choice of player" in a lot of ways, because you are taking each subclass ability and turning it into an element.

Not something that will be super popular, because Balance means keeping all the classes somewhat within the same general scope of how many abilities they have, when they have them, and so forth. It seriously changes a lot of underlying structural mechanics, but the benefit is that you can treat Psionics as either a variant of magic, or as its own thing -- or you could just as easily say that one or the other doesn't exist, and it won't change the whole. 

The basic work for it involves taking each special ability in the game for a class or subclass and putting them into a list, then organizing it. Then you take out te core abilities for each class, so you don't have duplications and provide a rationale for that class. 

Class, not subclass. But now you can just create a bunch of classes, as well, so not that big a change; the only trick for real balance is that you cannot have something that is a core ability of one class become a core ability of another class.

Once you organize all the special abilities, you then lay them out according to level, and as the PC progresses, they can choose from the list at times when they do not gain one of the Core Abilities. So now they can choose if they want to learn magic spells or combat or more skills or improve themselves, and you can vary the rules for what they can choose by class for additional balance and flavor (using my set up, perhaps the class has an automatic Discipline they learn, reducing the total they have over time by one).

Variations on Ki points, Sorcery Points, superiority/inspiration dice -- these can all be included as well, as either "open" abilities or "fixed" ones. Since my game relies on a spell point system, I opted to use a psi point system as well, and one class has the special ability of blending the two together -- so they are not quite magic users and they are not quite psionicists, and their abilities occupy a special place like sorcerers do in the regular game.

For the Psionic Powers themselves, I came up with 50 different core powers, structured under seven groups of powers. Mechanically, it flows very much like magic does, but in terms of direct conflict, it is more rolls and resource management (though in fairness some of that is just to add drama into the idea of two people staring each other down, lol). 

pulling it all out of the set up I have and creating a stand alone system is entirely doable as well, tough, and that's why I had to mention the rest. A stand alone system just means that when a character has an ASI, they can choose instead to develop their Psychic abilities, or they can forego some otherwise learned special ability to do so. That becomes the functional mode of how to introduce it, and while it means slow increases, it does allow for a character to stand out, because of the resource uses.

Setting it up to have a spell slot like system will be next agenda, not too hard to do, but it will be a bit as I need to finish the stuff off for my own setting and game first.

THank you all for your feedback so far. I will post more, including a document, once I get a bit further along.

Psionics was introed in 1e as a limited access ability. In 2e it had 3 full classes ( psion, psi warrior, psi rogue) as well as a ilimited access wildling.in 3e they extended and altered its sytem, but they also introduced the sorceror which was less complex to run. In 3.5 they basically dropped psionics in favor or the simpler sorceror which has carried on thru 4e and 5e ( and will no doubt carry on into 5.5e) any point based system is going to be more complex to run than the vancian ( spell slot) system so I don’t really see much chance of psionics as anything other than a weird magic happening other than in homebrew (sadly). In homebrew you basically have 2 options - first, some sort of points based system or second - a pick your abilities free for all like Dorsay just described.

I would like to see an official conversion of the 1E psionics from the PHB Appendix I and include the Psionicist class and expanded psionics from Dragon Magazine #78. I highly doubt WotC will ever do that though so I'll just continue converting them myself.

If it is not by WotC then it is by some 3PP.

I like my PCs to be different, with some little exotic touch. If I want to be a member of certain urban tribe, then I have to show my own mark of identity instead wearing clothing like the rest. 

If psionic magic doesn't need verbal or somatic components then it may be "broken" or OP in infiltration, for example a dinner of the high society. 

I am too used psionic can't work like magic. Psionic is like cooking your own food, and magic is like calling to a restaurant to ask food. 

I love the concept of psionic ardent like a frienemy of the clerics and rest of divine spellcasters, with a love-hate relation. This could be source of inspiration for new stories.

I want one or more psionic class, but subclasses for the rest can be wellcome.

The pool of power points. That shouldn't change.

* Could astral constructs to be used to carry heavy shields or to reload crossbows? Or be sent to open doors and chests, or an explore a room, because there are suspects about hidden traps. 

Or Astral constructs be used to work like an ectoplasmatic exo-suit. Or to create tentacles-like to catch that far object. 

* If WotC wanted to create a new class inspired into the "cultivators" from manhuas and wuxia fiction, the psionic/spirit powers should work better here than the classic standars magic.

* I miss the psionic attacks and defenses from 2nd Ed but they were too complicated for the 5ed standars.

Well done. I’m also tinkering with the Psionic as a class idea (homebrew of course, complete with spell list, but it’s taking awhile) and I’d love to share my thoughts on this. 

How do you see Psionics working in relation to Magic?

A. Essentially, they are magic users in D&D — however, they don’t have to pray to a deity for their powers, be in a certain lineage, nor be some great demon’s lap dog…they were truly born with it. Lorewise, this could have some interesting background feats or proficiencies for players. The most interesting thing is that none of their “spells” have any verbal (V), somatic (S) or material (M) costs. The implications for this are huge — for one, Psionicists as a class could be sought out and trained to be mage assassins of some type because they can simply silence, bind, incapacitate or otherwise hamper their targets’ ability to cast spells before delivering the killing blow. This would be a class defining feature and would make them overpowered without implementing alternative casting costs and conditions (see below) to balance out the class.

Is it oppositional, adversarial, parallel?

A. Adversarial — a completely new, separate, yet cross-interactive with magic, that is, magic affects psionics and vice versa. Parallelism wouldn’t work — imagine having a telekinetically thrown boulder coming at you and there’s nothing you could do to stop it with magic. A counter war would ensue. Now, the most abused aspects of Psionics I think are telekinesis, mind effects, teleportation (psychoportation) and empowering weapons in my opinion. I’ve been thinking of alternative casting costs and side effects as a class wide “feature” of Psionics: 1. Psionic Hemorrhaging — losing 2 life when casting certain spells, especially AoEs. Psionic Hemorrhaging does not heal normally save for long rest. Costs could be cumulative if you keep casting the same spell. 2. Brain freeze — lose access to a devotion (a spell) or maybe an entire science (family of spells) for an ‘x’ amount of time. Maybe occurs if a devotion or science is used more than twice in a row. 3. Psionic Over exhaustion — the spell costs an additional 5 PsP, or worse, an Ability point (temporarily, see Psionic Hemorrhage above) which doesn’t heal normally. This makes the counter war with the telekinetic boulder more interesting, being a Psionicist would mean being an expert on inner resource management.

What sorts of Abilities to do you Psionics having?

A. I’ll stick to the wording of the question. I’m building the Psionicist class using the Cleric as the “base stock”. Again, since Psionics have no Verbal, Somatic or Material restrictions on their spells (except maybe, Concentration, more on this later) they would probably be mage assassins of some type, or versed in hunting monsters that cast magic. Or maybe have a bonus in hunting Aberrations ( Psionicists would also count as Aberrations in addition to their creatures type, i.e. human, elf, etc). There is no “turn Aberration” by the way, nor would you want one. Most Aberrations can cast spells and some are outright fearless. So…as an ability, I’m thinking of Enhanced Vigor or something — you receive Advantage against Aberrations as a given and one other creature type upon Character creation or you choose it upon reaching that level. No more. Divine Spark becomes Esoteric Spark — once a day, you may use one Psi die, roll it and self heal for that amount, or select one Psi die and upgrade it one size, i.e. a d6 becomes a d8, reverts back to normal if unused such as a short rest. I’m still working out the other abilities, save for a natural ability to silence, bind or otherwise incapacitate a chosen target. I’ve chosen Cleric as the base stock because Psionicists can’t be straight casters, I don’t know how to balance out the class without implementing the above alternative casting costs and implementing such costs on a different base stock would be dangerous.  Psionicists, as a rule, shouldn’t be healers — even if they mainline the Psychmetabolism discipline. They can heal themselves, that’s fine, but heavy alternative casting costs should be levied when trying to heal another target. Also, all Psionicists are known telepaths, whether they mainline the discipline, or skip it altogether. The only difference is degree, like the radius from the caster, whether the target can answer back or not (i.e. “hey, there’s a treasure chest over here!”…”no you idiot, that’s a Mimic, I saw it eat a mouse earlier”).

Do you want to see a class with psionics, or sub-classes, or just additional abilities?

A. A class, complete with subclasses (I see at least two subclasses). One could be a Witch Blade, leaning towards medium armor, weapon specialization; the other is the Hierophant, more of a caster type, slightly more damage spellwise, larger spell pool (maybe less restrictive on 2e science/devotion requirements), light armor; and the Mage Assassin would be between the two. All three would have a specific science only open or available to that subclass. 

If you are familiar with them, did you like the 1e style psionics?

A. Short answer, no. Long answer — I like some of the concepts in it and a few that came later such as some devotions being not available unless you unlock the science its under first. Or something along those lines. I also like the base line defense and attack abilities.

Should psionics use an existing Ability Score, add an Ability Score, or have a derived ability score?

A. Ability Score — for simplicity. The main ability used for  casting spells would be Wisdom, symbolizing the Will. The other main ability would be Constitution, especially when it comes to the Psychometabolism discipline. Constitution would govern how fast or well you would manage psionic hemorrhage. Intelligence for Brain Freeze and either Strength or Charisma to manage Psionic Over Exhaustion. It would be nearly impossible to roll a character that not only casts well, but keeps all 3 detrimental casting effects in check.

Should psionics be point based or slot based, like magic?

A. Point based makes more sense to me. Unlike other casters, Psionicists always have spells prepared, they just need the points to cast them, or in some cases, the balls to endure detrimental casting costs. I’m in favor of a smaller, but more powerful spell pool. 

To be continued…(sorry, I have to run errands. I’ll come back and answer the other questions when I have time)

Something that is in no way similar to spells.  A system like 2e is an option without a class.

AEDorsay,

Part 2 as promised, and finishing up the last questions:

How should psionics improve over time?

A. Scales with level and power, and each Science has 3 devotions that are immediately available upon character creation, but they must be “bought” or opened by Psi die. For the next three questions, including this one, I’ll use this example: Turk is a level one Psionicist, and decided on the Psychokinesis discipline to start. He starts with 3 Psi die. Turk picks Telekinesis as a science (once chosen, Psychokinesis then becomes his primary discipline). Underneath that science, are ballistic attack, project force and inertial armor. He buys all 3 at one Psi die each. He gains all three back only after a long rest (so, technically a Psionicist is weakest just after gaining a level). There’s 5 other devotions under Telekinesis, but they’re locked away until he gains more levels, learns more devotions or what-not. Some may require learning a different science or even choosing a certain subclass. Ballistic Attack at level one has a range of self only, and chooses to psionically throw his hand axe by his hip against a rampaging orc. Sure, he could throw it, but the added Force damage would be better. Turk gains a level. He now has 4 Psi die. He could buy another devotion or improve something he already has. Turk improved the range of his Ballistic Attack. Another orc, but this one has a sheathed short sword as a sidearm. Should Turk cast Ballistic Attack targeting the short sword, cast it twice (first to unsheath it, and second to stab him in the neck with it) gaining Advantage with surprise and risk Psionic hemorrhaging? Or play it safe by throwing his own hand axe? 

Should psionics have discrete things that can be done, like spells, or should it be a more broad "this is the ability and what it can do at each level" style of set up?

A. I tend towards the latter; however, some devotions need to be fenced in with discrete rules, especially when it comes to Telekinesis or Psychokinesis in general. Discrete rules such as one direction only. Turk could target the rampaging Orc with Telekinesis, but he wouldn’t be able to do that unless he chooses Pyschmetabolism (a different science, within a completely different discipline). Each new science has a potential of improving different existing ones already learned, because by itself, Telekinesis and Ballistics can only target non-living material. 

How should it be determined that someone has psionics?

A. I’m assuming this is for wild powers. A high enough Wisdom, threshold would be 13 minimum and roll a d20…higher stats would yield higher chances. 

Hope this helps.