I understood what you meant. I was just saying that I think you are wrong, but with the caveat that I feel the 2,000 class-less army unrealistic.
I think it's wonderfully realistic. As in, it's the undeniable truth of every real army, ever.
It's certainly debatable whether 2000 mooks can kill any PC, or (nearly) any level. The right PC would get 1 or 2 really large AoE spells - 3, maybe - the counter for which would be spreading out sufficiently, controlling enemy targeting by use of ballistas or the like (don't waste your big spell on the mooks, when there are higher value targets - or do, and die to the higher value targets instead), and so on. Like ... Tsunami is an overwhelming powerhouse of a spell, but against properly organised troops, it kills maybe 20 guys. That's not the effectiveness you're looking for.
Ordinary, mundane military tactics will destroy any single PC, no matter how powerful. Which I've said a dozen times now, so I'll stop. It's the type of discussion that doesn't really go anywhere anyways, except statements of disagreement.
Things would be hugely different if two armies were facing each other, and only one had a caster flying over. Against packed infantry, a high level spell or two might kill all of them. But against units that know what they're fighting, I just don't see it. I see many ways it ends in a stalemate, but no real avenues for victory.
I'll stop now - thanks for playing =D
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Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
Tsunami is an overwhelming powerhouse of a spell, but against properly organised troops, it kills maybe 20 guys
Your sense of space -- or maybe your definition of "properly organised" -- is absolutely baffling, my dude
tsunami covers a 300x50 foot area when first cast. That's 600 squares on a 5x5 grid
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Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
It's certainly debatable whether 2000 mooks can kill any PC, or (nearly) any level. The right PC would get 1 or 2 really large AoE spells - 3, maybe - the counter for which would be spreading out sufficiently, controlling enemy targeting by use of ballistas or the like (don't waste your big spell on the mooks, when there are higher value targets - or do, and die to the higher value targets instead), and so on. Like ... Tsunami is an overwhelming powerhouse of a spell, but against properly organised troops, it kills maybe 20 guys.
Urr... if any army is dispersed enough that tsunami kills only twenty guys, it's dispersed enough that it's not really an army and it's subject to defeat in detail. You want your troops close enough together that they can actually support one another, and a column long enough that a 300' wave in a choke only kills 20 guys (of an army of 2,000) is five miles long.
In the real world, where there is no magic. Again, why the assumption that the army has no magic support of its own?
I think that's on me. My claim is that 2000 classless mooks can beat any single character of basically any level - maybe up to 20. Multiple castings of 9th level spells might become problematic. I'm trying to show that 2000 mooks - who use intelligent tactics - will always beat any caster, simply because of numbers.
It's always possible to construct a scenario with a different outcome. My baseline is that any army is intelligent enough to spread out, making AoE ineffective. But it's difficult for 2000 men to march from A to B in such a spread-out fashion, meaning the wizard might be able to hit and run, reducing their numbers before they arrived at the agreed upon battlefield.
But that's inane, not because it's untrue, but because anyone can construct any set of circumstances to suit them. Just like the wizard could hit and run, so could the mooks. I made the example (I think, my memory is rather unreliable) of the wizard coming to town to buy a fancy hat - and walking out of the hat store into a Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid scenario.
And that can just go around and around forever, each side spouting Self-invented scenarios that would ensure victory.
The problem is and always has been that you're assuming parity of ability between the wizard and the 2000 mooks. To start with, it's significantly easier for a single wizard to find an army of 2000 mooks than it is for 2000 mooks to find a lone wizard, even without magic being involved. For another, a level 20 wizard does not walk to town to buy a hat. They use the Teleportation Circle in their Wizard Tower to do their shopping on another continent at WizardMart, where troublemakers are pounded into spell components by the iron golems used as store security. They sleep in a private demiplane so there's no way to ambush them while they're vulnerable, even if you somehow manage to get past all the traps, wards, and constructs defending their home. They can use Clone so even if you somehow manage to kill them it won't actually stick. You talk about both sides spouting self-invented scenarios, but only one side has actually been looking at what the capabilities of a high-level wizard actually are.
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Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
My vote goes to Rogue but from a "take out the camp before battle" idea. Needs A Rogue with High Dex & Cha, profiecient and expert with Stealth and Cha based skills...which is basically a stereotypical rogue.
Stealth in with either sneaking or disguise then poison food and water supplies, spread contagion with diseased food or bedding, lay booby traps, lame horses or otherwise spook them into running away to divert the camps attention, spread misinformation, assassinate key leaders such as Sergeants/Platoon Commanders but not the bod in charge because they would likely have too many bodyguards to take on. No magic needed and probably should be avoided as any magical orientated individuals in the camp might stumble upon any use of magic and wonder why the "follower from the bagage train" you are disguised as is wandering around the camp coverd in illusion magic etc.
Over several nights/weeks you whittle down the opposing force, leaving it demoralised and incapable of fighting and having to withdraw from the field.
First thing i'm asking myself when reading the question is: an army of what? Fluffy Bunnies or Pit Fiends?
RELEASE THE RABBITS!!!
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"Where words fail, swords prevail. Where blood is spilled, my cup is filled" -Cartaphilus
"I have found the answer to the meaning of life. You ask me what the answer is? You already know what the answer to life is. You fear it more than the strike of a viper, the ravages of disease, the ire of a lover. The answer is always death. But death is a gentle mistress with a sweet embrace, and you owe her a debt of restitution. Life is not a gift, it is a loan."
Come on, guys, we have to be serious here. It's not an army of 2,000 Bunniculas. If it were, there wouldn't be any debate.
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Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny. Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
How I'm posting based on text formatting: Mod Hat Off - Mod Hat Also Off (I'm not a mod)
Woah 200 buniculas Is a world ending event. 2000 is terrifying.
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"Where words fail, swords prevail. Where blood is spilled, my cup is filled" -Cartaphilus
"I have found the answer to the meaning of life. You ask me what the answer is? You already know what the answer to life is. You fear it more than the strike of a viper, the ravages of disease, the ire of a lover. The answer is always death. But death is a gentle mistress with a sweet embrace, and you owe her a debt of restitution. Life is not a gift, it is a loan."
A level 17 monk warrior of the elements would down the army or at least make them flee without throwing a single punch, so grab a ring of invisibility and you'll be laughing.
Destructive Stride(DS). When you use your Step of the Wind, your Speed increases by 20 feet until the end of the turn. For that duration, any creature of your choice takes damage equal to one roll of your Martial Arts die when you enter a space within 5 feet of it. The damage type is your choice of Acid, Cold, Fire, Lightning, or Thunder. A creature can take this damage only once per turn.
Go halfling and you could run through there lines if they are medium or larger, leaving them more likely to attack each over than you... question the "for that duration line" is that duration of the step of the wind bonus action only, or does it apply to the mentioned time line of until the end of the turn. As monk at this level has extra 25ft movement so on halfling this is 55ft base gaining 20ft from DS so 75ft for movement, SotW and potentially dash as well, unless a real perceived threat to which could take the hide action instead. So 150/225ft (before looking at feats and later the boon of speed) movement to run through the ranks dealing 1d12 to everything you get close to without losing invisibility. can hit a lot of the army if they are holding ranks.
May not be an exciting way to bring down an army but would bring them down. I mean with the speed potential you'd be in the castle before they even knew an attack was happening
The problem is and always has been that you're assuming parity of ability between the wizard and the 2000 mooks. To start with, it's significantly easier for a single wizard to find an army of 2000 mooks than it is for 2000 mooks to find a lone wizard, even without magic being involved. For another, a level 20 wizard does not walk to town to buy a hat. They use the Teleportation Circle in their Wizard Tower to do their shopping on another continent at WizardMart, where troublemakers are pounded into spell components by the iron golems used as store security. They sleep in a private demiplane so there's no way to ambush them while they're vulnerable, even if you somehow manage to get past all the traps, wards, and constructs defending their home. They can use Clone so even if you somehow manage to kill them it won't actually stick. You talk about both sides spouting self-invented scenarios, but only one side has actually been looking at what the capabilities of a high-level wizard actually are.
I never answered this - and maybe I shouldn't now? But I stumbled on it again, and ... well.
So, the wizard avoiding confrontation does not mean he could win. He can sleep in all the demiplanes he wants, that doesn't mean he wins. When it comes to a confrontation - finally - I still say the 2000 mooks win, if they fight well.
And then you may argue that ... the wizard can destroy half the army and TP away. Maybe. That makes it a draw. IF he manages to get away. Otherwise, I count that as a loss. And there's always more mooks. In any pause in the fighting, new mooks can be recruited. There's only one wizard (although, sure, clones).
My main point remains the same, anyways. If there's a fight - not an avoidance of a fight - 2000 mooks will beat a wizard of an level hands down. Even if I admit there's various difficulties for the mook army too - the main one being having enough squares within range of the wizard to do anything meaningful. And all the logistics of getting mooks into the right squares to do their respective thing.
It's a thought experiment. I'm sure we don't need to agree =)
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Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
The problem is and always has been that you're assuming parity of ability between the wizard and the 2000 mooks. To start with, it's significantly easier for a single wizard to find an army of 2000 mooks than it is for 2000 mooks to find a lone wizard, even without magic being involved. For another, a level 20 wizard does not walk to town to buy a hat. They use the Teleportation Circle in their Wizard Tower to do their shopping on another continent at WizardMart, where troublemakers are pounded into spell components by the iron golems used as store security. They sleep in a private demiplane so there's no way to ambush them while they're vulnerable, even if you somehow manage to get past all the traps, wards, and constructs defending their home. They can use Clone so even if you somehow manage to kill them it won't actually stick. You talk about both sides spouting self-invented scenarios, but only one side has actually been looking at what the capabilities of a high-level wizard actually are.
I never answered this - and maybe I shouldn't now? But I stumbled on it again, and ... well.
So, the wizard avoiding confrontation does not mean he could win. He can sleep in all the demiplanes he wants, that doesn't mean he wins. When it comes to a confrontation - finally - I still say the 2000 mooks win, if they fight well.
And then you may argue that ... the wizard can destroy half the army and TP away. Maybe. That makes it a draw. IF he manages to get away. Otherwise, I count that as a loss. And there's always more mooks. In any pause in the fighting, new mooks can be recruited. There's only one wizard (although, sure, clones).
My main point remains the same, anyways. If there's a fight - not an avoidance of a fight - 2000 mooks will beat a wizard of an level hands down. Even if I admit there's various difficulties for the mook army too - the main one being having enough squares within range of the wizard to do anything meaningful. And all the logistics of getting mooks into the right squares to do their respective thing.
It's a thought experiment. I'm sure we don't need to agree =)
Plus "An army" does not necessarily mean 'Just mooks.' They could very well have their own 'special forces' adventurer team supporting them. The ability to set up a teleport circle does in no way guarantee the other end of the circle is secure or friendly and while they are off shopping, the army could tear down the wizard's tower, making a return teleport much more risky.
If it really is 'just mooks' then the wizard would likely win, even if just by way of high altitude bombing.
Plus "An army" does not necessarily mean 'Just mooks.' They could very well have their own 'special forces' adventurer team supporting them. The ability to set up a teleport circle does in no way guarantee the other end of the circle is secure or friendly and while they are off shopping, the army could tear down the wizard's tower, making a return teleport much more risky.
If it really is 'just mooks' then the wizard would likely win, even if just by way of high altitude bombing.
Well - sure. But my claim is that 2000 mooks can defeat any single character of any level. I don't believe that the wizard has enough anything to effectively reduce the number of mooks - if they employ proper tactics - and once he's out, he'll die very very quickly. Also, he doesn't get to pick the conditions: He doesn't get to start combat at 500 feet up, just like the army of mooks doesn't get to charge over a hilltop and surround the wizard. No setting up obvious win conditions beforehand.
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Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
Well - sure. But my claim is that 2000 mooks can defeat any single character of any level. I don't believe that the wizard has enough anything to effectively reduce the number of mooks - if they employ proper tactics - and once he's out, he'll die very very quickly. Also, he doesn't get to pick the conditions: He doesn't get to start combat at 500 feet up, just like the army of mooks doesn't get to charge over a hilltop and surround the wizard. No setting up obvious win conditions beforehand.
Armies are not subtle. Any starting condition other than "the parties start at least a mile apart" is unreasonable, and due to relative mobility, that means the high level character is always going to pick the engagement situation, unless the army has a means of forcing the character to make a stand. If the army is discovered a mile away from a town, a single high level character isn't going to be able to prevent them from sacking the town, because the only viable victory condition for the single character is whittling them away over a period of hours to days while being essentially unattackable... but a high level character of the right class can do that, it just requires superior mobility and long range lethal effects.
Plus "An army" does not necessarily mean 'Just mooks.' They could very well have their own 'special forces' adventurer team supporting them. The ability to set up a teleport circle does in no way guarantee the other end of the circle is secure or friendly and while they are off shopping, the army could tear down the wizard's tower, making a return teleport much more risky.
If it really is 'just mooks' then the wizard would likely win, even if just by way of high altitude bombing.
Well - sure. But my claim is that 2000 mooks can defeat any single character of any level. I don't believe that the wizard has enough anything to effectively reduce the number of mooks - if they employ proper tactics - and once he's out, he'll die very very quickly. Also, he doesn't get to pick the conditions: He doesn't get to start combat at 500 feet up, just like the army of mooks doesn't get to charge over a hilltop and surround the wizard. No setting up obvious win conditions beforehand.
Why doesn't he get to start 500 feet up? Why can't he own a broom or carpet of flying or some other similar item? He's a wizard of sufficient level, could have literally made it himself. He is also a single individual, so a LOT less movement and supply restricted than any army. He could likely defeat the army simply by going around torching farms.
Why doesn't he get to start 500 feet up? Why can't he own a broom or carpet of flying or some other similar item? He's a wizard of sufficient level, could have literally made it himself. He is also a single individual, so a LOT less movement and supply restricted than any army. He could likely defeat the army simply by going around torching farms.
Level playing field. That's why. Neither side get's to set conditions that guarantee victory ahead of time. Obviously. If the army of mooks get to jump the wizard while he's tanning at the beach or travelling through ambushable terrain - there's no contest, he dies before he can do anything at all about anything.
I'm less convinced the other way around. So the wizard starts airborne. That's an advantage, but I'm still not sure he wins. I'd need calculations and tactics and so on, and I can't really be bothered. But bottom line: No. You cannot set conditions ahead of time that favor one side or the other.
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Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
There's an argument that 'no conditions ahead of time' favors the mook army. But I consider that a necessary baseline. Otherwise, it just becomes a ladder of infinitely escalating pre-conditions:
Oh, but the wizard is flying
Ohh, but the mooks are really a thousand ballista crews, so there
Oh, but the wizard is invisible - so ... there!
Oh, but the mooks have potions of see invisibility ... so, yea, DOUBLE THERE!!
It just doesn't go anywhere. No preconditions for anyone.
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Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
Why doesn't he get to start 500 feet up? Why can't he own a broom or carpet of flying or some other similar item? He's a wizard of sufficient level, could have literally made it himself. He is also a single individual, so a LOT less movement and supply restricted than any army. He could likely defeat the army simply by going around torching farms.
Level playing field. That's why. Neither side get's to set conditions that guarantee victory ahead of time. Obviously. If the army of mooks get to jump the wizard while he's tanning at the beach or travelling through ambushable terrain - there's no contest, he dies before he can do anything at all about anything.
I'm less convinced the other way around. So the wizard starts airborne. That's an advantage, but I'm still not sure he wins. I'd need calculations and tactics and so on, and I can't really be bothered. But bottom line: No. You cannot set conditions ahead of time that favor one side or the other.
It is not unfair bias to assume the wizard acts like a wizard (and one who has survived this long) and that the army behaves like an army (which is why I suggested that the army is not going to be just '2000 mooks' ). Ambush-friendly terrain would actually favor the wizard, since it is a lot easier for him to hide in such terrain than it is for any army to do so (barring the attached 'special forces' unit I suggested earlier, i.e. not 'just 2000 mooks' )
We also can reasonably assume that the two forces consider each other enemies (or why would they engage at all?) and therefore also know at least of each other.
There's an argument that 'no conditions ahead of time' favors the mook army. But I consider that a necessary baseline. Otherwise, it just becomes a ladder of infinitely escalating pre-conditions:
Oh, but the wizard is flying
Ohh, but the mooks are really a thousand ballista crews, so there
Oh, but the wizard is invisible - so ... there!
Oh, but the mooks have potions of see invisibility ... so, yea, DOUBLE THERE!!
It just doesn't go anywhere. No preconditions for anyone.
You specified 2000 mooks, so they would not have enough personnel to man a thousand ballista and ballista have a 480' max range, not 500'. A wizard can reasonably cast invisibility. It is a very common, commonly learned spell. Keeping an army supplied in invisibility potions is very non-trivial.
The wizard can enchant things. The army cannot. It is, however, reasonable for the army to have at least a couple siege weapons available.
You are effectively nerfing the wizard by giving them a precondition that they are under-geared and unprepared.
It is not unfair bias to assume the wizard acts like a wizard.
Sure. After the fight starts. No one get's to set favorable preconditions. Otherwise - as I tried to point out - it never ends.
But again: It's a though experiment. We don't have to agree.
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Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
It is not unfair bias to assume the wizard acts like a wizard.
Sure. After the fight starts. No one get's to set favorable preconditions. Otherwise - as I tried to point out - it never ends.
But again: It's a though experiment. We don't have to agree.
So until the fight starts, they are just another random mook? I get that it is a thought experiment but 'they all just appear and start fighting' is biasing in favor of the army, since enough of them will almost certainly have initiative to take the inexplicably blindsided, unprepared wizard down before they even have a clue.
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I think it's wonderfully realistic. As in, it's the undeniable truth of every real army, ever.
It's certainly debatable whether 2000 mooks can kill any PC, or (nearly) any level. The right PC would get 1 or 2 really large AoE spells - 3, maybe - the counter for which would be spreading out sufficiently, controlling enemy targeting by use of ballistas or the like (don't waste your big spell on the mooks, when there are higher value targets - or do, and die to the higher value targets instead), and so on. Like ... Tsunami is an overwhelming powerhouse of a spell, but against properly organised troops, it kills maybe 20 guys. That's not the effectiveness you're looking for.
Ordinary, mundane military tactics will destroy any single PC, no matter how powerful. Which I've said a dozen times now, so I'll stop. It's the type of discussion that doesn't really go anywhere anyways, except statements of disagreement.
Things would be hugely different if two armies were facing each other, and only one had a caster flying over. Against packed infantry, a high level spell or two might kill all of them. But against units that know what they're fighting, I just don't see it. I see many ways it ends in a stalemate, but no real avenues for victory.
I'll stop now - thanks for playing =D
Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
Your sense of space -- or maybe your definition of "properly organised" -- is absolutely baffling, my dude
tsunami covers a 300x50 foot area when first cast. That's 600 squares on a 5x5 grid
Active characters:
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Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
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Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Urr... if any army is dispersed enough that tsunami kills only twenty guys, it's dispersed enough that it's not really an army and it's subject to defeat in detail. You want your troops close enough together that they can actually support one another, and a column long enough that a 300' wave in a choke only kills 20 guys (of an army of 2,000) is five miles long.
The problem is and always has been that you're assuming parity of ability between the wizard and the 2000 mooks. To start with, it's significantly easier for a single wizard to find an army of 2000 mooks than it is for 2000 mooks to find a lone wizard, even without magic being involved. For another, a level 20 wizard does not walk to town to buy a hat. They use the Teleportation Circle in their Wizard Tower to do their shopping on another continent at WizardMart, where troublemakers are pounded into spell components by the iron golems used as store security. They sleep in a private demiplane so there's no way to ambush them while they're vulnerable, even if you somehow manage to get past all the traps, wards, and constructs defending their home. They can use Clone so even if you somehow manage to kill them it won't actually stick. You talk about both sides spouting self-invented scenarios, but only one side has actually been looking at what the capabilities of a high-level wizard actually are.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
My vote goes to Rogue but from a "take out the camp before battle" idea. Needs A Rogue with High Dex & Cha, profiecient and expert with Stealth and Cha based skills...which is basically a stereotypical rogue.
Stealth in with either sneaking or disguise then poison food and water supplies, spread contagion with diseased food or bedding, lay booby traps, lame horses or otherwise spook them into running away to divert the camps attention, spread misinformation, assassinate key leaders such as Sergeants/Platoon Commanders but not the bod in charge because they would likely have too many bodyguards to take on. No magic needed and probably should be avoided as any magical orientated individuals in the camp might stumble upon any use of magic and wonder why the "follower from the bagage train" you are disguised as is wandering around the camp coverd in illusion magic etc.
Over several nights/weeks you whittle down the opposing force, leaving it demoralised and incapable of fighting and having to withdraw from the field.
RELEASE THE RABBITS!!!
"Where words fail, swords prevail. Where blood is spilled, my cup is filled" -Cartaphilus
"I have found the answer to the meaning of life. You ask me what the answer is? You already know what the answer to life is. You fear it more than the strike of a viper, the ravages of disease, the ire of a lover. The answer is always death. But death is a gentle mistress with a sweet embrace, and you owe her a debt of restitution. Life is not a gift, it is a loan."
Come on, guys, we have to be serious here. It's not an army of 2,000 Bunniculas. If it were, there wouldn't be any debate.
Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny.
Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
How I'm posting based on text formatting: Mod Hat Off - Mod Hat Also Off (I'm not a mod)
Woah 200 buniculas Is a world ending event. 2000 is terrifying.
"Where words fail, swords prevail. Where blood is spilled, my cup is filled" -Cartaphilus
"I have found the answer to the meaning of life. You ask me what the answer is? You already know what the answer to life is. You fear it more than the strike of a viper, the ravages of disease, the ire of a lover. The answer is always death. But death is a gentle mistress with a sweet embrace, and you owe her a debt of restitution. Life is not a gift, it is a loan."
A level 17 monk warrior of the elements would down the army or at least make them flee without throwing a single punch, so grab a ring of invisibility and you'll be laughing.
Destructive Stride(DS). When you use your Step of the Wind, your Speed increases by 20 feet until the end of the turn. For that duration, any creature of your choice takes damage equal to one roll of your Martial Arts die when you enter a space within 5 feet of it. The damage type is your choice of Acid, Cold, Fire, Lightning, or Thunder. A creature can take this damage only once per turn.
Go halfling and you could run through there lines if they are medium or larger, leaving them more likely to attack each over than you... question the "for that duration line" is that duration of the step of the wind bonus action only, or does it apply to the mentioned time line of until the end of the turn. As monk at this level has extra 25ft movement so on halfling this is 55ft base gaining 20ft from DS so 75ft for movement, SotW and potentially dash as well, unless a real perceived threat to which could take the hide action instead. So 150/225ft (before looking at feats and later the boon of speed) movement to run through the ranks dealing 1d12 to everything you get close to without losing invisibility. can hit a lot of the army if they are holding ranks.
May not be an exciting way to bring down an army but would bring them down. I mean with the speed potential you'd be in the castle before they even knew an attack was happening
I never answered this - and maybe I shouldn't now? But I stumbled on it again, and ... well.
So, the wizard avoiding confrontation does not mean he could win. He can sleep in all the demiplanes he wants, that doesn't mean he wins. When it comes to a confrontation - finally - I still say the 2000 mooks win, if they fight well.
And then you may argue that ... the wizard can destroy half the army and TP away. Maybe. That makes it a draw. IF he manages to get away. Otherwise, I count that as a loss. And there's always more mooks. In any pause in the fighting, new mooks can be recruited. There's only one wizard (although, sure, clones).
My main point remains the same, anyways. If there's a fight - not an avoidance of a fight - 2000 mooks will beat a wizard of an level hands down. Even if I admit there's various difficulties for the mook army too - the main one being having enough squares within range of the wizard to do anything meaningful. And all the logistics of getting mooks into the right squares to do their respective thing.
It's a thought experiment. I'm sure we don't need to agree =)
Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
Plus "An army" does not necessarily mean 'Just mooks.' They could very well have their own 'special forces' adventurer team supporting them. The ability to set up a teleport circle does in no way guarantee the other end of the circle is secure or friendly and while they are off shopping, the army could tear down the wizard's tower, making a return teleport much more risky.
If it really is 'just mooks' then the wizard would likely win, even if just by way of high altitude bombing.
Well - sure. But my claim is that 2000 mooks can defeat any single character of any level. I don't believe that the wizard has enough anything to effectively reduce the number of mooks - if they employ proper tactics - and once he's out, he'll die very very quickly. Also, he doesn't get to pick the conditions: He doesn't get to start combat at 500 feet up, just like the army of mooks doesn't get to charge over a hilltop and surround the wizard. No setting up obvious win conditions beforehand.
Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
Armies are not subtle. Any starting condition other than "the parties start at least a mile apart" is unreasonable, and due to relative mobility, that means the high level character is always going to pick the engagement situation, unless the army has a means of forcing the character to make a stand. If the army is discovered a mile away from a town, a single high level character isn't going to be able to prevent them from sacking the town, because the only viable victory condition for the single character is whittling them away over a period of hours to days while being essentially unattackable... but a high level character of the right class can do that, it just requires superior mobility and long range lethal effects.
Why doesn't he get to start 500 feet up? Why can't he own a broom or carpet of flying or some other similar item? He's a wizard of sufficient level, could have literally made it himself. He is also a single individual, so a LOT less movement and supply restricted than any army. He could likely defeat the army simply by going around torching farms.
Level playing field. That's why. Neither side get's to set conditions that guarantee victory ahead of time. Obviously. If the army of mooks get to jump the wizard while he's tanning at the beach or travelling through ambushable terrain - there's no contest, he dies before he can do anything at all about anything.
I'm less convinced the other way around. So the wizard starts airborne. That's an advantage, but I'm still not sure he wins. I'd need calculations and tactics and so on, and I can't really be bothered. But bottom line: No. You cannot set conditions ahead of time that favor one side or the other.
Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
There's an argument that 'no conditions ahead of time' favors the mook army. But I consider that a necessary baseline. Otherwise, it just becomes a ladder of infinitely escalating pre-conditions:
Oh, but the wizard is flying
Ohh, but the mooks are really a thousand ballista crews, so there
Oh, but the wizard is invisible - so ... there!
Oh, but the mooks have potions of see invisibility ... so, yea, DOUBLE THERE!!
It just doesn't go anywhere. No preconditions for anyone.
Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
It is not unfair bias to assume the wizard acts like a wizard (and one who has survived this long) and that the army behaves like an army (which is why I suggested that the army is not going to be just '2000 mooks' ). Ambush-friendly terrain would actually favor the wizard, since it is a lot easier for him to hide in such terrain than it is for any army to do so (barring the attached 'special forces' unit I suggested earlier, i.e. not 'just 2000 mooks' )
We also can reasonably assume that the two forces consider each other enemies (or why would they engage at all?) and therefore also know at least of each other.
You specified 2000 mooks, so they would not have enough personnel to man a thousand ballista and ballista have a 480' max range, not 500'. A wizard can reasonably cast invisibility. It is a very common, commonly learned spell. Keeping an army supplied in invisibility potions is very non-trivial.
The wizard can enchant things. The army cannot. It is, however, reasonable for the army to have at least a couple siege weapons available.
You are effectively nerfing the wizard by giving them a precondition that they are under-geared and unprepared.
Sure. After the fight starts. No one get's to set favorable preconditions. Otherwise - as I tried to point out - it never ends.
But again: It's a though experiment. We don't have to agree.
Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
So until the fight starts, they are just another random mook? I get that it is a thought experiment but 'they all just appear and start fighting' is biasing in favor of the army, since enough of them will almost certainly have initiative to take the inexplicably blindsided, unprepared wizard down before they even have a clue.