Meteor Swarm would literally destroy a condensed army.
It's not really a large enough area; it's probably only going to hit in the hundreds. That's why you use tsunami or storm of vengeance; they don't do as high damage but they cover an absurd area. At level 14, there's decent options for slowing them down by turning terrain nearly impassible with spells like plant growth, transmute rock, move earth, and mirage arcane, but actually killing the army is probably going to require things like wind wall to avoid arrows, lobbing a few damaging spells, and using some sort of escape spell, and might well require weeks of killing a hundred people a day.
Circle of death would wreck a lot, 60 foot radius is pretty huge, over double the size of meteor swarm. 11,000+sq feet(I do not square the circle) vs tsunamis 15,000. For tsunami though even though its slower than a full retreat in practicality a army wont be able to maneuver well enough to turn around and run away en masse and many more would get killed as it moved. But circle of death is only a 6th level spell. And a 60 foot radius will put most of the survivors in the disadvantage on a shot ranges vs the wizard. Its main flaw is its range is fairly short.
Both though would technically only kill a few hundred unless you got a lot while tsunami moved. My money is still on the caster as most of the army even if they can target the caster will be at disadvantage due to range given how much of a area you clear with a single spell which will give them plenty of opportunity to flee and kill more another day if needed. With storm of vengeance i don't think they need to flee. plant growth to hedge them in and then tsunami would also wreck them. A wizard would probably need hit and run over a couple days though.
Disadvantage only counts for so much when you've got several hundred attacks coming your way. Law of averages says you're gonna look like a pincushion either way by that point. And 1d8+3 damage is gonna eat way at 20d6+40 HP pretty fast once we're talking dozens if not hundreds of return shots.
Disadvantage only counts for so much when you've got several hundred attacks coming your way.
There's a reason I specified wind wall -- it doesn't give disadvantage, it just blocks arrows, bolts, and the like. If all you want is disadvantage, there are a ton of ways of doing it.
To address Storm of Vengeance because it keeps getting invoked; it is good for killing an army, not fighting one in the sense that both parties start within a range of mutual engagement rather than one side just kiting the other for the duration. Tsunami is very dependent on how the enemy is arranged. 300 ft is a respectable distance for grid play, but it's also the length of a football field. I'm reasonably certain a 2000-strong armed force won't bunch up in a high school football field's worth of space when deployed. Also, keep in mind Tsunami is a 1 minute cast, so unless this is an ambush scenario that's a lot of time to get pin-cushioned.
Ultimately what all this proves, as I've previously said, is that no PC can do the "I'm a major shonen anime character" thing of casually walking up to an arbitrarily large army and effortlessly wiping it out. Depending on tactics available and composition a 4th tier caster can kite and kill them, but realistically if the forces are primarily CR 1 or higher with longbows or heavy crossbows then sheer weight of fire grinds any PC into the dirt over 1 or 2 rounds at this scope.
To address Storm of Vengeance because it keeps getting invoked; it is good for killing an army, not fighting one in the sense that both parties start within a range of mutual engagement rather than one side just kiting the other for the duration.
'Fighting' does not mean a prearranged duel. It may be a rather one-sided fight if one side cannot engage, but that doesn't make it not a fight.
I'm saying Wizard, Necromancer... because in theory you could accumulate an army of reasonably powerful undead of your own, if they somehow 'survive' (can lesser undead really 'survive'?! lol) all the way up to your 14th level. Though unless I'm mistaken, Necromancer is not an option in PHB '24??
As I'm a bit new to 5E, I'm not yet sure how many undead you can hypothetically have in your thrall; I'm curious for an answer.
I would also say, some powerful magic items as well wouldn't hurt....
*edit* researched and found a zombie or skeleton is the most powerful undead you can create!? So still, if you have a huge army of them, against not-too-powerful foes, then maybe.
If you were fighting AGAINST an army of undead, then I would definitely say use a Cleric or Paladin...
Not a single class, particularly in this edition. PC’s are barely heroe’s even at 14th level, and they certainly aren’t superheroes. You should have included “None” as an answer.
If you think that 14th level characters are "barely heroes," I'd say your expectations of what a character's power level should be have been skewed by shonen and/or Pathfinder or 3rd Edition.
As for taking down an army by one's self? Depends on the size of the army, the composition of the army, the terrain upon which the fight will occur, and how long a time frame there is to work with. Because here's the one thing that you're not going to do: stand up and face the army head-on. The name of this game is asymmetric warfare and that means it's time to fight dirty. Attack at night, destroy their provisions, poison water sources, assassinate officers, set traps, but whatever you do, don't fight fair.
Not a single class, particularly in this edition. PC’s are barely heroe’s even at 14th level, and they certainly aren’t superheroes. You should have included “None” as an answer.
If you think that 14th level characters are "barely heroes," I'd say your expectations of what a character's power level should be have been skewed by shonen and/or Pathfinder or 3rd Edition.
As for taking down an army by one's self? Depends on the size of the army, the composition of the army, the terrain upon which the fight will occur, and how long a time frame there is to work with. Because here's the one thing that you're not going to do: stand up and face the army head-on. The name of this game is asymmetric warfare and that means it's time to fight dirty. Attack at night, destroy their provisions, poison water sources, assassinate officers, set traps, but whatever you do, don't fight fair.
Very true, though that would be tough waging such a war with one character!
What if you were to scry the location of, and then teleport into the enemy leaders' quarters... and then quickly charm em?
A Sorcerer could twin the charm on the leader and second in command at once, for a greater chance of success, so the latter does not question.
Though I'm not sure, can you twin Charm Person?!
Would this be asymmetrical warfare? lol
*edit* so did a little research about Charm Person and meta magic. So ultimately I'd say, scry into the enemy headquarters, then teleport there, and charm as many as possible. I think it could be 18 if you quicken?
A more brutal option, teleport as a Paladin, Fighter or Barbarian in, with a magic item, and kill the leaders! Though you would need some magical means to keep guards outside from hearing/seeing the combat, and also hope there's not too many enemies in the leader's quarters.
It would be nice to do ridiculous damage, like with a belt of storm giant strength and a legendary dragon's wrath weapon. Blackrazor might make you unkillable in this kind of battle too.
I guess it depends really upon the army's size, and its constituents...
If you set a scenario that favors the army, of course the army wins.
But I don't. I set the worst possible parameters for 'army'. Classless mooks with basic equipment. I also set very basic conditions for 'wizard'. Neither side has any advantage from the start.
As far as I'm concerned, we've agreed to disagree =)
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Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
Sorry I'm joining this late, and interjecting! Myself, I was presuming an army with a hierarchy of 'classless mooks' to fill its ranks up to somewhat more powerful leaders, like an Orc chieftain...
Also, if you are wielding Blackrazor, and at 14th level, would this not greatly increase your chances of beating such an army?
Sorry I'm joining this late, and interjecting! Myself, I was presuming an army with a hierarchy of 'classless mooks' to fill its ranks up to somewhat more powerful leaders, like an Orc chieftain...
Also, if you are wielding Blackrazor, and at 14th level, would this not greatly increase your chances of beating such an army?
The wizard is inexplicably only allowed starting equipment.
Sorry I'm joining this late, and interjecting! Myself, I was presuming an army with a hierarchy of 'classless mooks' to fill its ranks up to somewhat more powerful leaders, like an Orc chieftain...
Also, if you are wielding Blackrazor, and at 14th level, would this not greatly increase your chances of beating such an army?
The wizard is inexplicably only allowed starting equipment.
Because introducing a second set of variables to account for and pick from would make establishing some kind of baseline even more of a headache, and technically speaking magic items are optional content.
Sorry I'm joining this late, and interjecting! Myself, I was presuming an army with a hierarchy of 'classless mooks' to fill its ranks up to somewhat more powerful leaders, like an Orc chieftain...
Also, if you are wielding Blackrazor, and at 14th level, would this not greatly increase your chances of beating such an army?
The wizard is inexplicably only allowed starting equipment.
Because introducing a second set of variables to account for and pick from would make establishing some kind of baseline even more of a headache, and technically speaking magic items are optional content.
It is a 14th level character we are talking about. Those tend to be rather complex with a lot of possible variations, variables, if you will.
Technically speaking, being a wizard is 'optional content.'
Sorry I'm joining this late, and interjecting! Myself, I was presuming an army with a hierarchy of 'classless mooks' to fill its ranks up to somewhat more powerful leaders, like an Orc chieftain...
Also, if you are wielding Blackrazor, and at 14th level, would this not greatly increase your chances of beating such an army?
There's a reason I stick with the classless mooks. The point is that ... basically, nothing can survive 2000 attack rolls. It doesn't require anything else - just rolling to hit 2000 times. Half will miss, easily, but the target still takes 1000d6 damage, for an average of 3500 damage.
This can easily be skewed in various ways. Like 'the wizard is flying, hahahah'. That's very nice. Fly all you like, Mr. Wizard Sir. You'll run out of spellslots before you've killed a significant number of the 2000 troops, and since this is a fight - not a hit and run - you'll have to come down and start firing cantrips or attacking with your dagger.
The wizard cannot win.
I don't know what a Blackrazor is, but gimme a sec. Ok, now I do. Makes absolutely zero difference. You still die on the first round.
But we can twist, and turn, and make up new preconditions until we're all old and grey. My claim still stands though - without piling on preconditions to help out that single character, it's no contest what so ever - the army wins on round 1. And even the most powerful caster is able to inflict only minimal casualties. None at all if he loses initiative.
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Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
I suppose one more possibility is that potentially a Wizard who casts Invulnerability from XGtE could do enough in the space of 10 minutes to kill an army, although I’m not entirely sure they can cover 10k+ square feet without Meteor Swarm as an opener and their concentration tied up.
But, generally speaking, there’s no class who can definitively take on an arbitrarily large force and consistently win. If they get favorable conditions for large scale kiting a caster with their 9th level slot can potentially do enough AoE to pull it off, but the way AC, attack rolls, HP, and damage work and scale in 5e means no PC can soak a truly large scale ranged barrage, so if the army gets a real combat turn rather than just “stand there while they get attacked from the horizon” they win, ergo any ability for a single PC to win is circumstantial, not definitive.
Basically, full casters at max level have the theoretical capacity, but they need favorable circumstances and trying to determine just how likely those circumstances are is not something we can effectively model in an internet forum.
I suppose one more possibility is that potentially a Wizard who casts Invulnerability from XGtE could do enough in the space of 10 minutes to kill an army, although I’m not entirely sure they can cover 10k+ square feet without Meteor Swarm as an opener and their concentration tied up.
But, generally speaking, there’s no class who can definitively take on an arbitrarily large force and consistently win. If they get favorable conditions for large scale kiting a caster with their 9th level slot can potentially do enough AoE to pull it off, but the way AC, attack rolls, HP, and damage work and scale in 5e means no PC can soak a truly large scale ranged barrage, so if the army gets a real combat turn rather than just “stand there while they get attacked from the horizon” they win, ergo any ability for a single PC to win is circumstantial, not definitive.
Basically, full casters at max level have the theoretical capacity, but they need favorable circumstances and trying to determine just how likely those circumstances are is not something we can effectively model in an internet forum.
Well, I'm not sure if you read my original post and the spoiler, if you get your stats high enough as a monk or barb, almost nothing can hit you. As a Barb, just hold a shield, get the Defensive Duelist feat, have a rapier or something, become a warforged, max out your stats (so roll them). A +5 dex, a +5 con, a +2 from shield, a bonus from Defensive duelist (use rapier), go into rage, and boom. You have nigh impenetrable AC, and resistance to plenty of damage. This isn't even including if you multiclass into Battle Master to get some defensive maneuvers, or if you find magic items that increase your ability scores past their limits. (Unless they have a ridiculous To Hit, of course.)
There's a reason I stick with the classless mooks. The point is that ... basically, nothing can survive 2000 attack rolls.
That's not really the case; rather, it's that surviving 2,000 attack rolls a round for long enough to kill 2,000 enemies isn't terribly feasible.
If we assume bandits, they have an attack bonus of +3, so with an AC of 23 one attack in 20 will hit. That's achievable for a while with ordinary gear -- just a base AC of 18 (medium armor and shield) and some way of casting shield. If the enemy also has disadvantage (which most of them will, because most won't be in short range, and the target can just drop prone) that gets us down to 1/400 attacks hitting (though those hits are critical hits) for a total of 5 hits, doing 10d8+5 (50) damage. That's survivable for a couple of rounds. It might even be survivable for longer, as it might not even be possible to get all of the army within long range (320'); if we assume an average dispersion of 100 square feet per soldier, and that they're only on one side of the enemy, the total area within a 320' semicircle is about 160,000 square feet, enough for 1,600 soldiers (and only 100 within 80').
Now, however, we get into the problem of "can you kill them fast enough". For any single target attacker, the answer is 'not even close'; a fighter might kill 20 before being killed. For area attacks, it's a bit more math but the top performers are circle of death (11,300 ft^2), otiluke's freezing sphere (11,300 ft^2), meteor swarm (20,100 ft^2), tsunami (15,000 ft^2 per turn), storm of vengeance (282,000 ft^2.. but takes multiple rounds to kill -- probably 2 in 2024 as the acid rain has increased from 1d6 to 4d6, 4 in 2014), and control weather (ridiculous.. but takes multiple hours to kill).
I would say that, in a no-setup situation, your best bet is a caster with a base AC of at least 18 (medium armor + shield, probably), shield, storm of vengeance, and a +9 constitution save (for concentration rolls). This is possible for a bard or druid by level 17 but has significant chances to go badly. Also, if the army has any way of negating the disadvantage on attack rolls, that 50 damage per round turns into 1,000 damage per round.
Basically, full casters at max level have the theoretical capacity, but they need favorable circumstances and trying to determine just how likely those circumstances are is not something we can effectively model in an internet forum.
I would argue that a full caster, in several cases, has the capacity to easily withdraw and return under favorable circumstances moreso than the army.
Repeat assaults over time favor a caster under that premise.
Basically, full casters at max level have the theoretical capacity, but they need favorable circumstances and trying to determine just how likely those circumstances are is not something we can effectively model in an internet forum.
I would argue that a full caster, in several cases, has the capacity to easily withdraw and return under favorable circumstances moreso than the army.
Repeat assaults over time favor a caster under that premise.
Disadvantage only counts for so much when you've got several hundred attacks coming your way. Law of averages says you're gonna look like a pincushion either way by that point. And 1d8+3 damage is gonna eat way at 20d6+40 HP pretty fast once we're talking dozens if not hundreds of return shots.
There's a reason I specified wind wall -- it doesn't give disadvantage, it just blocks arrows, bolts, and the like. If all you want is disadvantage, there are a ton of ways of doing it.
To address Storm of Vengeance because it keeps getting invoked; it is good for killing an army, not fighting one in the sense that both parties start within a range of mutual engagement rather than one side just kiting the other for the duration. Tsunami is very dependent on how the enemy is arranged. 300 ft is a respectable distance for grid play, but it's also the length of a football field. I'm reasonably certain a 2000-strong armed force won't bunch up in a high school football field's worth of space when deployed. Also, keep in mind Tsunami is a 1 minute cast, so unless this is an ambush scenario that's a lot of time to get pin-cushioned.
Ultimately what all this proves, as I've previously said, is that no PC can do the "I'm a major shonen anime character" thing of casually walking up to an arbitrarily large army and effortlessly wiping it out. Depending on tactics available and composition a 4th tier caster can kite and kill them, but realistically if the forces are primarily CR 1 or higher with longbows or heavy crossbows then sheer weight of fire grinds any PC into the dirt over 1 or 2 rounds at this scope.
'Fighting' does not mean a prearranged duel. It may be a rather one-sided fight if one side cannot engage, but that doesn't make it not a fight.
I'm saying Wizard, Necromancer... because in theory you could accumulate an army of reasonably powerful undead of your own, if they somehow 'survive' (can lesser undead really 'survive'?! lol) all the way up to your 14th level. Though unless I'm mistaken, Necromancer is not an option in PHB '24??
As I'm a bit new to 5E, I'm not yet sure how many undead you can hypothetically have in your thrall; I'm curious for an answer.
I would also say, some powerful magic items as well wouldn't hurt....
*edit* researched and found a zombie or skeleton is the most powerful undead you can create!? So still, if you have a huge army of them, against not-too-powerful foes, then maybe.
If you were fighting AGAINST an army of undead, then I would definitely say use a Cleric or Paladin...
Very true, though that would be tough waging such a war with one character!
What if you were to scry the location of, and then teleport into the enemy leaders' quarters... and then quickly charm em?
A Sorcerer could twin the charm on the leader and second in command at once, for a greater chance of success, so the latter does not question.
Though I'm not sure, can you twin Charm Person?!
Would this be asymmetrical warfare? lol
*edit* so did a little research about Charm Person and meta magic. So ultimately I'd say, scry into the enemy headquarters, then teleport there, and charm as many as possible. I think it could be 18 if you quicken?
A more brutal option, teleport as a Paladin, Fighter or Barbarian in, with a magic item, and kill the leaders! Though you would need some magical means to keep guards outside from hearing/seeing the combat, and also hope there's not too many enemies in the leader's quarters.
It would be nice to do ridiculous damage, like with a belt of storm giant strength and a legendary dragon's wrath weapon. Blackrazor might make you unkillable in this kind of battle too.
I guess it depends really upon the army's size, and its constituents...
But I don't. I set the worst possible parameters for 'army'. Classless mooks with basic equipment. I also set very basic conditions for 'wizard'. Neither side has any advantage from the start.
As far as I'm concerned, we've agreed to disagree =)
Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
Sorry I'm joining this late, and interjecting! Myself, I was presuming an army with a hierarchy of 'classless mooks' to fill its ranks up to somewhat more powerful leaders, like an Orc chieftain...
Also, if you are wielding Blackrazor, and at 14th level, would this not greatly increase your chances of beating such an army?
The wizard is inexplicably only allowed starting equipment.
Because introducing a second set of variables to account for and pick from would make establishing some kind of baseline even more of a headache, and technically speaking magic items are optional content.
It is a 14th level character we are talking about. Those tend to be rather complex with a lot of possible variations, variables, if you will.
Technically speaking, being a wizard is 'optional content.'
There's a reason I stick with the classless mooks. The point is that ... basically, nothing can survive 2000 attack rolls. It doesn't require anything else - just rolling to hit 2000 times. Half will miss, easily, but the target still takes 1000d6 damage, for an average of 3500 damage.
This can easily be skewed in various ways. Like 'the wizard is flying, hahahah'. That's very nice. Fly all you like, Mr. Wizard Sir. You'll run out of spellslots before you've killed a significant number of the 2000 troops, and since this is a fight - not a hit and run - you'll have to come down and start firing cantrips or attacking with your dagger.
The wizard cannot win.
I don't know what a Blackrazor is, but gimme a sec. Ok, now I do. Makes absolutely zero difference. You still die on the first round.
But we can twist, and turn, and make up new preconditions until we're all old and grey. My claim still stands though - without piling on preconditions to help out that single character, it's no contest what so ever - the army wins on round 1. And even the most powerful caster is able to inflict only minimal casualties. None at all if he loses initiative.
Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
I suppose one more possibility is that potentially a Wizard who casts Invulnerability from XGtE could do enough in the space of 10 minutes to kill an army, although I’m not entirely sure they can cover 10k+ square feet without Meteor Swarm as an opener and their concentration tied up.
But, generally speaking, there’s no class who can definitively take on an arbitrarily large force and consistently win. If they get favorable conditions for large scale kiting a caster with their 9th level slot can potentially do enough AoE to pull it off, but the way AC, attack rolls, HP, and damage work and scale in 5e means no PC can soak a truly large scale ranged barrage, so if the army gets a real combat turn rather than just “stand there while they get attacked from the horizon” they win, ergo any ability for a single PC to win is circumstantial, not definitive.
Basically, full casters at max level have the theoretical capacity, but they need favorable circumstances and trying to determine just how likely those circumstances are is not something we can effectively model in an internet forum.
Well, I'm not sure if you read my original post and the spoiler, if you get your stats high enough as a monk or barb, almost nothing can hit you. As a Barb, just hold a shield, get the Defensive Duelist feat, have a rapier or something, become a warforged, max out your stats (so roll them). A +5 dex, a +5 con, a +2 from shield, a bonus from Defensive duelist (use rapier), go into rage, and boom. You have nigh impenetrable AC, and resistance to plenty of damage. This isn't even including if you multiclass into Battle Master to get some defensive maneuvers, or if you find magic items that increase your ability scores past their limits. (Unless they have a ridiculous To Hit, of course.)
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That's not really the case; rather, it's that surviving 2,000 attack rolls a round for long enough to kill 2,000 enemies isn't terribly feasible.
If we assume bandits, they have an attack bonus of +3, so with an AC of 23 one attack in 20 will hit. That's achievable for a while with ordinary gear -- just a base AC of 18 (medium armor and shield) and some way of casting shield. If the enemy also has disadvantage (which most of them will, because most won't be in short range, and the target can just drop prone) that gets us down to 1/400 attacks hitting (though those hits are critical hits) for a total of 5 hits, doing 10d8+5 (50) damage. That's survivable for a couple of rounds. It might even be survivable for longer, as it might not even be possible to get all of the army within long range (320'); if we assume an average dispersion of 100 square feet per soldier, and that they're only on one side of the enemy, the total area within a 320' semicircle is about 160,000 square feet, enough for 1,600 soldiers (and only 100 within 80').
Now, however, we get into the problem of "can you kill them fast enough". For any single target attacker, the answer is 'not even close'; a fighter might kill 20 before being killed. For area attacks, it's a bit more math but the top performers are circle of death (11,300 ft^2), otiluke's freezing sphere (11,300 ft^2), meteor swarm (20,100 ft^2), tsunami (15,000 ft^2 per turn), storm of vengeance (282,000 ft^2.. but takes multiple rounds to kill -- probably 2 in 2024 as the acid rain has increased from 1d6 to 4d6, 4 in 2014), and control weather (ridiculous.. but takes multiple hours to kill).
I would say that, in a no-setup situation, your best bet is a caster with a base AC of at least 18 (medium armor + shield, probably), shield, storm of vengeance, and a +9 constitution save (for concentration rolls). This is possible for a bard or druid by level 17 but has significant chances to go badly. Also, if the army has any way of negating the disadvantage on attack rolls, that 50 damage per round turns into 1,000 damage per round.
Warlock because of patron
I would argue that a full caster, in several cases, has the capacity to easily withdraw and return under favorable circumstances moreso than the army.
Repeat assaults over time favor a caster under that premise.
No debate for warlock though
Yeah it does depend on level