Yeah, like I said, it’s rather niche. It’s handy to put a few guards to sleep with a lower level slot, but to use it in a fight or something it’s only useful at the very end to capture someone alive for questioning, and only after you’ve all but killed the last one. Any time one would really wanna KO just the right enemy, they’ve usually got at least a handful of lower HP minions around or too many HP unless one really cranks the spell or both, and at that point there’s often better options. It’s a shame really.
Yea - my point was that it isn't particularly niche, or at least it shouldn't be. Like I said, burn a 9th level slot for it, and you're putting 100+ HD to sleep on average.
No, it will put an average of 95 Hitpoints worth of monsters to sleep, not hit dice. A 9th level slot will affect 21d8 HP worth of creatures. That's really not that impressive.
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"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
Yeah, like I said, it’s rather niche. It’s handy to put a few guards to sleep with a lower level slot, but to use it in a fight or something it’s only useful at the very end to capture someone alive for questioning, and only after you’ve all but killed the last one. Any time one would really wanna KO just the right enemy, they’ve usually got at least a handful of lower HP minions around or too many HP unless one really cranks the spell or both, and at that point there’s often better options. It’s a shame really.
Yea - my point was that it isn't particularly niche, or at least it shouldn't be. Like I said, burn a 9th level slot for it, and you're putting 100+ HD to sleep on average.
Now, the norm for high level play is that you'd farely rarely have a use for that. Because I dunno, you'll be fighting demons and elementals and dragons and undead and so on, that don't sleep or are immune or have spell resistance of whatever.
Only I think that's wrong. If only because massive HP sponges lead to massively boring fights. And sleep isn't putting 'a few guards' to sleep. By that level, it knocks out the entire city guard.
It only becomes niche because WOTC, GM's and players alike have painted themselves into a corner, where any challenge must by necessity be larger - like, physically (and in HD) - than the last one. I know this is a minority opinion, but I'm serious: Larger enemies make for crappier games.
I don’t care what level you cast it at, it’s still got a limited AoE of a 20-foot sphere. That means, if they’re all standing in block formation (because yeah, they’re gonna do that 🙄), you can only hit at most, 20 guards:
At 11 HP per guard, that’s 220 HP. At an average roll of 4.5 on a d8, at 9th level you’re rolling on average 94.5 total HP worth of targets go night night. That’s less than half of those guards, 8.5 of them to be exact. And if the DM is like me and routinely maxes out “monster” HP to make encounters actually challenging, then they each have 18 HP, so now you’re down to only sending 5.25 of them off to nevernever land. So yeah, that’s just about a handful of guards. That’s it.
Alter Self is a good example of another one of the problems, which is that it gets swapped out for a “more powerful version”, typically polymorph or shape change — bit this underestimates the value of the spell.
To me, this doesn't feel like much of an issue. As your character becomes more powerful, they are inevitably going to gain access to more powerful magic that will render some of their old spells far less useful. It's not like you're stuck with a spell forever anyways, because you can always change what you have prepared.
The only ways to avoid certain higher level spells replacing lower level ones would be to either 1) Not have spells get more powerful or have no interlaps between spells of various levels or to 2) Completely remodel the whole awesome spell system because of this minor critique.
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Alter Self is a good example of another one of the problems, which is that it gets swapped out for a “more powerful version”, typically polymorph or shape change — bit this underestimates the value of the spell.
To me, this doesn't feel like much of an issue. As your character becomes more powerful, they are inevitably going to gain access to more powerful magic that will render some of their old spells far less useful. It's not like you're stuck with a spell forever anyways, because you can always change what you have prepared.
The only ways to avoid certain higher level spells replacing lower level ones would be to either 1) Not have spells get more powerful or have no interlaps between spells of various levels or to 2) Completely remodel the whole awesome spell system because of this minor critique.
It’s not really a minor critique, it’s actually rather major in that it applies to a whole lot of spells. And there are many adjectives I would use to refer to the Magic system of D&D, but “awesome” isn’t one of them. I much prefer the way magic works in other games, like the WoD games for example, at least the older edition, not sure about the current one as I haven’t used it. Don’t get me wrong, 5e’s magic system is miles better than it was in older editions, but it is still pretty flawed if one really objectively considers it carefully. Like, I get it, some spells are meant to represent more powerful versions of lower level spells, but they could instead create a system where that stuff grows more organically and it would solve a lot of problems. Alas, that would require abandoning the pseudo-Vancian spell slot system, and then it wouldn’t really be D&D anymore.
*grabs hold of pedantic side and wrestles her to ground while muttering things about spell slots not being vancian*
hi hi, nothing to see here, move along, move along…
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Note, I wrote “pseudo-Vancian” (emphasis on the pseudo). I do generally know the principles of Vancian system and how it differs from the D&D mechanics. You can let your pedantic side take a nap now.
I don’t care what level you cast it at, it’s still got a limited AoE of a 20-foot sphere. That means, if they’re all standing in block formation (because yeah, they’re gonna do that 🙄), you can only hit at most, 20 guards:
At 11 HP per guard, that’s 220 HP. At an average roll of 4.5 on a d8, at 9th level you’re rolling on average 94.5 total HP worth of targets go night night. That’s less than half of those guards, 8.5 of them to be exact. And if the DM is like me and routinely maxes out “monster” HP to make encounters actually challenging, then they each have 18 HP, so now you’re down to only sending 5.25 of them off to nevernever land. So yeah, that’s just about a handful of guards. That’s it.
Well - the aoe isn't something I can contest. But why would a guard get two hitdice? I suppose your reference is as legit as humanly possible, but that's just part of the problem. Guards should be - and in my games invariably will me - classless mooks of precisely one hitdice, with propably 6 hp. Above average on their d8, and +1 for con, cause I'm generous like that.
That's what your random dude who just picked this job because it didn't involve a lot of real work should look like.
And the entire city watch of a moderately sized city shouldn't be any more than - at most - 20 to 25 guys strong, so I'm still right :p
Ok, so maybe 5 escape. But I did really have in mind a situation of walking into their watch room - where they'd be resting in bunk beds 3 guys high - and Sleep-ing them there. You'd get all 25 (provided none of them were actually out on patrol, which seems slightly unlikely - maybe this is right at the moment when they switch, and they're pretty lax about it. Could happen).
=)
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According to RotFM, any town with 100 inhabitants would have more than 25 on the city watch
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According to RotFM, any town with 100 inhabitants would have more than 25 on the city watch
Yeah, but that is variable by setting and locale and general risk. Also, it took me a bit to figure out you were referencing the Icewind Dale adventure, lol.
I mean, 10 people on a watch shift in a town of 100 is reasonable, but with three shifts or four (so 30 to 40 people) now you are talking half the city -- so by that measure, the number begins to get a bit unwieldy. A more likely number on watch at any given time is likely 4 guards on watch in any given shift, with three or four sergeants (one per watch) and commander -- the sergeants and commander likely not being only part time, and the general watch being townsfolk wo have been called up to support the goal of protecting the town.
However, getting them all in one place is only hard if you don't think of the concept of a diversion. Get the men-at-arms in one place and the Sergeant will come to break it up and for a moment you have all of them ready to go.
Now, I do agree that the whole d6 die is unlikely, and the general use is going to be that of the published guard stats (well, in a homebrew encounter), but even then a sharp Wizard should be able to put the entire town watch to sleep in one go with the careful use of a well crafted diversion that doesn't involve alerting the whole town.
That, of course, is assuming they don't just use a Passwall at the town walls while the lone guard on this side has his back turned and then proceeds into the town to use that sleep spell on the Merchant's house, whose captives they were hired to rescue...
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According to RotFM, any town with 100 inhabitants would have more than 25 on the city watch
Yeah, but that is variable by setting and locale and general risk. Also, it took me a bit to figure out you were referencing the Icewind Dale adventure, lol.
I mean, 10 people on a watch shift in a town of 100 is reasonable, but with three shifts or four (so 30 to 40 people) now you are talking half the city -- so by that measure, the number begins to get a bit unwieldy. A more likely number on watch at any given time is likely 4 guards on watch in any given shift, with three or four sergeants (one per watch) and commander -- the sergeants and commander likely not being only part time, and the general watch being townsfolk wo have been called up to support the goal of protecting the town.
However, getting them all in one place is only hard if you don't think of the concept of a diversion. Get the men-at-arms in one place and the Sergeant will come to break it up and for a moment you have all of them ready to go.
Now, I do agree that the whole d6 die is unlikely, and the general use is going to be that of the published guard stats (well, in a homebrew encounter), but even then a sharp Wizard should be able to put the entire town watch to sleep in one go with the careful use of a well crafted diversion that doesn't involve alerting the whole town.
That, of course, is assuming they don't just use a Passwall at the town walls while the lone guard on this side has his back turned and then proceeds into the town to use that sleep spell on the Merchant's house, whose captives they were hired to rescue...
Even that seems a bit unrealistic. Unless it’s a monster infested area or some place that regularly has to deal with bandits or something, a town of 100 citizens probably wouldn’t even have a “wall” as such, likely at best just a picket line or something. And I could see maybe a 10-person force, 1 Captain (using noble stats), and 9 full time guards including 3 sergeants to act as watch commanders running three 8-hour shifts consisting of 1 Sergeant and 2 regular guards per shift. Then maybe another 40ish regular commoners who could be called up as militia in dire times when the odd monster or bandit raid comes through.
And the guards pretty much have to be guards, not just commoners with an extra hit point because they would need to present a reasonable defense against your average gang of 8-20 bandits. And a bandit can’t just be a commoner with a bad attitude because they have to be significant enough to present a reasonable challenge to a party of 3-5 low-level PCS.
Now, for a village of 100 that is under semi regular threat of attack by wandering monsters or bandits, then I could see having at least a wooden palisade and a full time force of maybe 16 (1 Captain, 3 Sergeants, 12 regular guards) plus the militia, but if any more than that are employed as guards, then there literally wouldn’t be enough people doing other stuff (farming, etc.) to actually sustain the village.
There’s no way 25 of 100 could be guards. 1/4 of the population? Then you figure there’s going to be children in the mix and so it probably more like 1/3 of the working age population. With that many people working for the government, there’s not enough taxpayers to support a force that size. And it would largely be unneeded; at 100 people, everyone knows everyone. I’m guessing very low crime.
I’d be more likely to believe that there’s 1 or 2 actual, full time city watch. And maybe the 20-odd other folks are members of a local militia, since you never know when a bunch of orcs or an owlbear will stroll into town. So when it hits the fan, the shopkeeper put on her leather armor and grabs a club or maybe a shortsword. Maybe that’s more what they meant.
According to RotFM, any town with 100 inhabitants would have more than 25 on the city watch
Yeah, but that is variable by setting and locale and general risk. Also, it took me a bit to figure out you were referencing the Icewind Dale adventure, lol.
I mean, 10 people on a watch shift in a town of 100 is reasonable, but with three shifts or four (so 30 to 40 people) now you are talking half the city -- so by that measure, the number begins to get a bit unwieldy. A more likely number on watch at any given time is likely 4 guards on watch in any given shift, with three or four sergeants (one per watch) and commander -- the sergeants and commander likely not being only part time, and the general watch being townsfolk wo have been called up to support the goal of protecting the town.
However, getting them all in one place is only hard if you don't think of the concept of a diversion. Get the men-at-arms in one place and the Sergeant will come to break it up and for a moment you have all of them ready to go.
Now, I do agree that the whole d6 die is unlikely, and the general use is going to be that of the published guard stats (well, in a homebrew encounter), but even then a sharp Wizard should be able to put the entire town watch to sleep in one go with the careful use of a well crafted diversion that doesn't involve alerting the whole town.
That, of course, is assuming they don't just use a Passwall at the town walls while the lone guard on this side has his back turned and then proceeds into the town to use that sleep spell on the Merchant's house, whose captives they were hired to rescue...
Even that seems a bit unrealistic. Unless it’s a monster infested area or some place that regularly has to deal with bandits or something, a town of 100 citizens probably wouldn’t even have a “wall” as such, likely at best just a picket line or something. And I could see maybe a 10-person force, 1 Captain (using noble stats), and 9 full time guards including 3 sergeants to act as watch commanders running three 8-hour shifts consisting of 1 Sergeant and 2 regular guards per shift. Then maybe another 40ish regular commoners who could be called up as militia in dire times when the odd monster or bandit raid comes through.
And the guards pretty much have to be guards, not just commoners with an extra hit point because they would need to present a reasonable defense against your average gang of 8-20 bandits. And a bandit can’t just be a commoner with a bad attitude because they have to be significant enough to present a reasonable challenge to a party of 3-5 low-level PCS.
Now, for a village of 100 that is under semi regular threat of attack by wandering monsters or bandits, then I could see having at least a wooden palisade and a full time force of maybe 16 (1 Captain, 3 Sergeants, 12 regular guards) plus the militia, but if any more than that are employed as guards, then there literally wouldn’t be enough people doing other stuff (farming, etc.) to actually sustain the village.
Yeah, that, lol.
I mean, the 25 figure is fine if you break it up into shifts -- but the reason I say 3 or 4 shifts is that often in stressful areas, you will want four shifts (assuming a 24 hour cycle) instead of three, because of the stress of the circumstances.
I mean, I totally get he idea of Mooks -- but I set mooks at a point where they are equal to 2nd level PCs, and as you move up the chain of command they get an extra "level" or hit die, so that Captain is going to be a tough cookie for a low level party.
But I also presumed we are talking about a spell like Sleep being used by a 20th level Wizard to knock out a town watch, lol. My towns are generally larger than 100 people (that is called a Hamlet in my setting, and is roughly the smallest settlement that isn't basically a family out on its own carving a life out of the wilds -- that would be a steading). And Hamlets don't have walls -- they have a large building that can accomodate most of the locals in times of dire emergency.
But I also do have a lot of trouble with Bandits, Brigands, Goblin raids, and especially around small places like that probable monster attacks. Too far from the main Villages, Towns, and Cities that usually provide military support. And if it is a coastal place by a waterway, they have to deal with sneaky maritime raids by the above (Pirates, though, instead of bandits) plus the grendels and the thyrs (think giant sized Stitch and bugbears).
Most hamlets don't even have a standing watch -- there's no money to pay them, so anyone doing it is strictly a volunteer and will be a farmer or craftsperson. They will usually rely on a troop from some larger settlement on a round of the area they are nominally supposed to be protecting.
Which leads me to the likely scenario there, which is that a Wizard could wipe them all out with a few judicious spells (a troop is usually seven, so ok, not all, but it would make it easier).
Of course, there could be a Ranger nearby. That would mess up a lot of wizardly sleep plans, lol.
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My question is, why would a 20th level Wizard be interested in raiding a podunk village of mud farmers in the first place?!? At that point the PC is pro’ly raiding the castle in the capital city, and there they have have 50-60 full time guards on per shift, plus another 50-60 for the rest of the city per shift. Ne?
It’s not really a minor critique, it’s actually rather major in that it applies to a whole lot of spells. And there are many adjectives I would use to refer to the Magic system of D&D, but “awesome” isn’t one of them. I much prefer the way magic works in other games, like the WoD games for example, at least the older edition, not sure about the current one as I haven’t used it. Don’t get me wrong, 5e’s magic system is miles better than it was in older editions, but it is still pretty flawed if one really objectively considers it carefully. Like, I get it, some spells are meant to represent more powerful versions of lower level spells, but they could instead create a system where that stuff grows more organically and it would solve a lot of problems. Alas, that would require abandoning the pseudo-Vancian spell slot system, and then it wouldn’t really be D&D anymore.
Well, 5e is probably the most popular edition yet, and I think it appears that you're in the minority on disliking the spell system that's currently in place. Regardless, I'm not completely sure that remodeling D&D's magic system once it's become a renowned and featured part of the game that's inspired a bunch of copycat RPGs would be a good idea; It would run the risk of alienating players because of such a massive change to a functional and important system.
But hey, maybe I'm wrong and there are only a couple of people on Earth who like how fifth does magic. It would be cool if Wizards sought data for this.
My question is, why would a 20th level Wizard be interested in raiding a podunk village of mud farmers in the first place?!? At that point the PC is pro’ly raiding the castle in the capital city, and there they have have 50-60 full time guards on per shift, plus another 50-60 for the rest of the city per shift. Ne?
Because they the sacred stones. Didn’t you see Temple of Doom?
My question is, why would a 20th level Wizard be interested in raiding a podunk village of mud farmers in the first place?!? At that point the PC is pro’ly raiding the castle in the capital city, and there they have have 50-60 full time guards on per shift, plus another 50-60 for the rest of the city per shift. Ne?
hey, a job's a job, and y'know, after that damn fool Rogue wished for all that money and the genie gave him mine, what else am I supposed to do?
I'm broke, dammit, and they paid me to get this kid out of the place without razing it, so *shrugs*.
Oh, yeah, that god thing, too. Damn gods. Always thinking you need "motivation" or "character building". I'm a 20th level wizard, dang nabbit! I swear, I will find that darn Wish spell and then we'll see who gets the last laugh, Lupin!
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Well, 5e is probably the most popular edition yet, and I think it appears that you're in the minority on disliking the spell system that's currently in place. Regardless, I'm not completely sure that remodeling D&D's magic system once it's become a renowned and featured part of the game that's inspired a bunch of copycat RPGs would be a good idea; It would run the risk of alienating players because of such a massive change to a functional and important system.
But hey, maybe I'm wrong and there are only a couple of people on Earth who like how fifth does magic. It would be cool if Wizards sought data for this.
Nah, you are right. It is the default (like D&D itself), and most of my whines are little more than that -- whining, lol. Having to take apart the whole system to see how it works really was a big deal as a lot has changed "under the hood" from the last time I did it.
The Spells of D&D are really very cool and very good. I tread lightly there, as they are well thought out in the collective sense and do the very thing that magic is kinda supposed to do -- change the Rules and Laws of the World (physics, chemistry, et al). A lot of what I have historically ended up doing is adding to the assortment (mostly elemental stuff for "effect" and variety in game play).
This time my big challenge was that I had to shift to a spell point system -- and the DMG rules for it didn't work in our playtests at all. So, really, still the same magic system. We simplified damage because that was a standing rule, and we ended up making the idea of "casting time" a bigger mechanic that has impact on combat flow, and then played with spell lists (which they are also doing). So, spell points, Casting Time, Damage. The rest already exists in close to the same form, because as you note, if it didn't, it wouldn't be D&D.
And that's something that holds true across all versions -- 5e is WAY different from 1e, as 1e was different from Basic. That variance actually gives D&D a lot More Flexibility than many of those other games, because it allows the weight of that history to carry it forward. IT also shows a way and a path to "stay D&D" because you can see what they kept and what they simplified and if you follow long long enough, you can hear why they made certain decisions.
The simplicity and the "power trip" aspects of player creation are huge boosts-- giving that to them going forward is going to stay. I would like to see more work done to help our us poor, desperate DMs (looks innocent and gives puppy dog eyes that only twitch a little)...
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According to RotFM, any town with 100 inhabitants would have more than 25 on the city watch
Wait, what?
If you look at the stats, each of the Ten Towns can get a force of at least 25 together. Now, they're not going to all be full time guards, but they have the same HP as Guards and if they're all gathered together surrounding a L20 Wizard...then it's going to be the full force, reserves and all.
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lots of spells are situational, in the right situation they are very good, in the wrong situation they are effectively useless. As for guards for towns yeah 25 per 100 seems insanely hog. Think about western towns in the 1800’s - a town Marshall, one to 5 deputies (depending on size) and a jailor; for several hundred to several thousand people. In D&D terms think a fighter/ranger, a mage (to cover the magic side) and one to 5 lower level fighters (sidekicks?) is all I have typically - along with a town militia for “major” problems. I agree with ‘Sposta that some L20 bbeg isn’t going to be messing with some hamlet except maybe in passing - there isn’t anything there for them. They are going to be looking for the king’s treasury or a dragon’s hoard etc.
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No, it will put an average of 95 Hitpoints worth of monsters to sleep, not hit dice. A 9th level slot will affect 21d8 HP worth of creatures. That's really not that impressive.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
I don’t care what level you cast it at, it’s still got a limited AoE of a 20-foot sphere. That means, if they’re all standing in block formation (because yeah, they’re gonna do that 🙄), you can only hit at most, 20 guards:
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At 11 HP per guard, that’s 220 HP. At an average roll of 4.5 on a d8, at 9th level you’re rolling on average 94.5 total HP worth of targets go night night. That’s less than half of those guards, 8.5 of them to be exact. And if the DM is like me and routinely maxes out “monster” HP to make encounters actually challenging, then they each have 18 HP, so now you’re down to only sending 5.25 of them off to nevernever land. So yeah, that’s just about a handful of guards. That’s it.
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To me, this doesn't feel like much of an issue. As your character becomes more powerful, they are inevitably going to gain access to more powerful magic that will render some of their old spells far less useful. It's not like you're stuck with a spell forever anyways, because you can always change what you have prepared.
The only ways to avoid certain higher level spells replacing lower level ones would be to either 1) Not have spells get more powerful or have no interlaps between spells of various levels or to 2) Completely remodel the whole awesome spell system because of this minor critique.
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HERE.It’s not really a minor critique, it’s actually rather major in that it applies to a whole lot of spells. And there are many adjectives I would use to refer to the Magic system of D&D, but “awesome” isn’t one of them. I much prefer the way magic works in other games, like the WoD games for example, at least the older edition, not sure about the current one as I haven’t used it. Don’t get me wrong, 5e’s magic system is miles better than it was in older editions, but it is still pretty flawed if one really objectively considers it carefully. Like, I get it, some spells are meant to represent more powerful versions of lower level spells, but they could instead create a system where that stuff grows more organically and it would solve a lot of problems. Alas, that would require abandoning the pseudo-Vancian spell slot system, and then it wouldn’t really be D&D anymore.
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*grabs hold of pedantic side and wrestles her to ground while muttering things about spell slots not being vancian*
hi hi, nothing to see here, move along, move along…
Only a DM since 1980 (3000+ Sessions) / PhD, MS, MA / Mixed, Bi, Trans, Woman / No longer welcome in the US, apparently
Wyrlde: Adventures in the Seven Cities
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Not Talking About It / Dubbed The Oracle in the Cult of Mythology Nerds
Note, I wrote “pseudo-Vancian” (emphasis on the pseudo). I do generally know the principles of Vancian system and how it differs from the D&D mechanics. You can let your pedantic side take a nap now.
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Well - the aoe isn't something I can contest. But why would a guard get two hitdice? I suppose your reference is as legit as humanly possible, but that's just part of the problem. Guards should be - and in my games invariably will me - classless mooks of precisely one hitdice, with propably 6 hp. Above average on their d8, and +1 for con, cause I'm generous like that.
That's what your random dude who just picked this job because it didn't involve a lot of real work should look like.
And the entire city watch of a moderately sized city shouldn't be any more than - at most - 20 to 25 guys strong, so I'm still right :p
Ok, so maybe 5 escape. But I did really have in mind a situation of walking into their watch room - where they'd be resting in bunk beds 3 guys high - and Sleep-ing them there. You'd get all 25 (provided none of them were actually out on patrol, which seems slightly unlikely - maybe this is right at the moment when they switch, and they're pretty lax about it. Could happen).
=)
Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
Sure, if you use custom “guards” that are essentially little better than a commoner, but when the rest of us talk about “guards” we mean guards.
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If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
Yeah, but that is variable by setting and locale and general risk. Also, it took me a bit to figure out you were referencing the Icewind Dale adventure, lol.
I mean, 10 people on a watch shift in a town of 100 is reasonable, but with three shifts or four (so 30 to 40 people) now you are talking half the city -- so by that measure, the number begins to get a bit unwieldy. A more likely number on watch at any given time is likely 4 guards on watch in any given shift, with three or four sergeants (one per watch) and commander -- the sergeants and commander likely not being only part time, and the general watch being townsfolk wo have been called up to support the goal of protecting the town.
However, getting them all in one place is only hard if you don't think of the concept of a diversion. Get the men-at-arms in one place and the Sergeant will come to break it up and for a moment you have all of them ready to go.
Now, I do agree that the whole d6 die is unlikely, and the general use is going to be that of the published guard stats (well, in a homebrew encounter), but even then a sharp Wizard should be able to put the entire town watch to sleep in one go with the careful use of a well crafted diversion that doesn't involve alerting the whole town.
That, of course, is assuming they don't just use a Passwall at the town walls while the lone guard on this side has his back turned and then proceeds into the town to use that sleep spell on the Merchant's house, whose captives they were hired to rescue...
Only a DM since 1980 (3000+ Sessions) / PhD, MS, MA / Mixed, Bi, Trans, Woman / No longer welcome in the US, apparently
Wyrlde: Adventures in the Seven Cities
.-=] Lore Book | Patreon | Wyrlde YT [=-.
An original Setting for 5e, a whole solar system of adventure. Ongoing updates, exclusies, more.
Not Talking About It / Dubbed The Oracle in the Cult of Mythology Nerds
That seems highly unrealistic.
Even that seems a bit unrealistic. Unless it’s a monster infested area or some place that regularly has to deal with bandits or something, a town of 100 citizens probably wouldn’t even have a “wall” as such, likely at best just a picket line or something. And I could see maybe a 10-person force, 1 Captain (using noble stats), and 9 full time guards including 3 sergeants to act as watch commanders running three 8-hour shifts consisting of 1 Sergeant and 2 regular guards per shift. Then maybe another 40ish regular commoners who could be called up as militia in dire times when the odd monster or bandit raid comes through.
And the guards pretty much have to be guards, not just commoners with an extra hit point because they would need to present a reasonable defense against your average gang of 8-20 bandits. And a bandit can’t just be a commoner with a bad attitude because they have to be significant enough to present a reasonable challenge to a party of 3-5 low-level PCS.
Now, for a village of 100 that is under semi regular threat of attack by wandering monsters or bandits, then I could see having at least a wooden palisade and a full time force of maybe 16 (1 Captain, 3 Sergeants, 12 regular guards) plus the militia, but if any more than that are employed as guards, then there literally wouldn’t be enough people doing other stuff (farming, etc.) to actually sustain the village.
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There’s no way 25 of 100 could be guards. 1/4 of the population? Then you figure there’s going to be children in the mix and so it probably more like 1/3 of the working age population. With that many people working for the government, there’s not enough taxpayers to support a force that size. And it would largely be unneeded; at 100 people, everyone knows everyone. I’m guessing very low crime.
I’d be more likely to believe that there’s 1 or 2 actual, full time city watch. And maybe the 20-odd other folks are members of a local militia, since you never know when a bunch of orcs or an owlbear will stroll into town. So when it hits the fan, the shopkeeper put on her leather armor and grabs a club or maybe a shortsword. Maybe that’s more what they meant.
Yeah, that, lol.
I mean, the 25 figure is fine if you break it up into shifts -- but the reason I say 3 or 4 shifts is that often in stressful areas, you will want four shifts (assuming a 24 hour cycle) instead of three, because of the stress of the circumstances.
I mean, I totally get he idea of Mooks -- but I set mooks at a point where they are equal to 2nd level PCs, and as you move up the chain of command they get an extra "level" or hit die, so that Captain is going to be a tough cookie for a low level party.
But I also presumed we are talking about a spell like Sleep being used by a 20th level Wizard to knock out a town watch, lol. My towns are generally larger than 100 people (that is called a Hamlet in my setting, and is roughly the smallest settlement that isn't basically a family out on its own carving a life out of the wilds -- that would be a steading). And Hamlets don't have walls -- they have a large building that can accomodate most of the locals in times of dire emergency.
But I also do have a lot of trouble with Bandits, Brigands, Goblin raids, and especially around small places like that probable monster attacks. Too far from the main Villages, Towns, and Cities that usually provide military support. And if it is a coastal place by a waterway, they have to deal with sneaky maritime raids by the above (Pirates, though, instead of bandits) plus the grendels and the thyrs (think giant sized Stitch and bugbears).
Most hamlets don't even have a standing watch -- there's no money to pay them, so anyone doing it is strictly a volunteer and will be a farmer or craftsperson. They will usually rely on a troop from some larger settlement on a round of the area they are nominally supposed to be protecting.
Which leads me to the likely scenario there, which is that a Wizard could wipe them all out with a few judicious spells (a troop is usually seven, so ok, not all, but it would make it easier).
Of course, there could be a Ranger nearby. That would mess up a lot of wizardly sleep plans, lol.
Only a DM since 1980 (3000+ Sessions) / PhD, MS, MA / Mixed, Bi, Trans, Woman / No longer welcome in the US, apparently
Wyrlde: Adventures in the Seven Cities
.-=] Lore Book | Patreon | Wyrlde YT [=-.
An original Setting for 5e, a whole solar system of adventure. Ongoing updates, exclusies, more.
Not Talking About It / Dubbed The Oracle in the Cult of Mythology Nerds
My question is, why would a 20th level Wizard be interested in raiding a podunk village of mud farmers in the first place?!? At that point the PC is pro’ly raiding the castle in the capital city, and there they have have 50-60 full time guards on per shift, plus another 50-60 for the rest of the city per shift. Ne?
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Well, 5e is probably the most popular edition yet, and I think it appears that you're in the minority on disliking the spell system that's currently in place. Regardless, I'm not completely sure that remodeling D&D's magic system once it's become a renowned and featured part of the game that's inspired a bunch of copycat RPGs would be a good idea; It would run the risk of alienating players because of such a massive change to a functional and important system.
But hey, maybe I'm wrong and there are only a couple of people on Earth who like how fifth does magic. It would be cool if Wizards sought data for this.
Wait, what?
BoringBard's long and tedious posts somehow manage to enrapture audiences. How? Because he used Charm Person, the #1 bard spell!
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HERE.Because they the sacred stones. Didn’t you see Temple of Doom?
hey, a job's a job, and y'know, after that damn fool Rogue wished for all that money and the genie gave him mine, what else am I supposed to do?
I'm broke, dammit, and they paid me to get this kid out of the place without razing it, so *shrugs*.
Oh, yeah, that god thing, too. Damn gods. Always thinking you need "motivation" or "character building". I'm a 20th level wizard, dang nabbit! I swear, I will find that darn Wish spell and then we'll see who gets the last laugh, Lupin!
Only a DM since 1980 (3000+ Sessions) / PhD, MS, MA / Mixed, Bi, Trans, Woman / No longer welcome in the US, apparently
Wyrlde: Adventures in the Seven Cities
.-=] Lore Book | Patreon | Wyrlde YT [=-.
An original Setting for 5e, a whole solar system of adventure. Ongoing updates, exclusies, more.
Not Talking About It / Dubbed The Oracle in the Cult of Mythology Nerds
Nah, you are right. It is the default (like D&D itself), and most of my whines are little more than that -- whining, lol. Having to take apart the whole system to see how it works really was a big deal as a lot has changed "under the hood" from the last time I did it.
The Spells of D&D are really very cool and very good. I tread lightly there, as they are well thought out in the collective sense and do the very thing that magic is kinda supposed to do -- change the Rules and Laws of the World (physics, chemistry, et al). A lot of what I have historically ended up doing is adding to the assortment (mostly elemental stuff for "effect" and variety in game play).
This time my big challenge was that I had to shift to a spell point system -- and the DMG rules for it didn't work in our playtests at all. So, really, still the same magic system. We simplified damage because that was a standing rule, and we ended up making the idea of "casting time" a bigger mechanic that has impact on combat flow, and then played with spell lists (which they are also doing). So, spell points, Casting Time, Damage. The rest already exists in close to the same form, because as you note, if it didn't, it wouldn't be D&D.
And that's something that holds true across all versions -- 5e is WAY different from 1e, as 1e was different from Basic. That variance actually gives D&D a lot More Flexibility than many of those other games, because it allows the weight of that history to carry it forward. IT also shows a way and a path to "stay D&D" because you can see what they kept and what they simplified and if you follow long long enough, you can hear why they made certain decisions.
The simplicity and the "power trip" aspects of player creation are huge boosts-- giving that to them going forward is going to stay. I would like to see more work done to help our us poor, desperate DMs (looks innocent and gives puppy dog eyes that only twitch a little)...
Only a DM since 1980 (3000+ Sessions) / PhD, MS, MA / Mixed, Bi, Trans, Woman / No longer welcome in the US, apparently
Wyrlde: Adventures in the Seven Cities
.-=] Lore Book | Patreon | Wyrlde YT [=-.
An original Setting for 5e, a whole solar system of adventure. Ongoing updates, exclusies, more.
Not Talking About It / Dubbed The Oracle in the Cult of Mythology Nerds
If you look at the stats, each of the Ten Towns can get a force of at least 25 together. Now, they're not going to all be full time guards, but they have the same HP as Guards and if they're all gathered together surrounding a L20 Wizard...then it's going to be the full force, reserves and all.
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
lots of spells are situational, in the right situation they are very good, in the wrong situation they are effectively useless. As for guards for towns yeah 25 per 100 seems insanely hog. Think about western towns in the 1800’s - a town Marshall, one to 5 deputies (depending on size) and a jailor; for several hundred to several thousand people. In D&D terms think a fighter/ranger, a mage (to cover the magic side) and one to 5 lower level fighters (sidekicks?) is all I have typically - along with a town militia for “major” problems. I agree with ‘Sposta that some L20 bbeg isn’t going to be messing with some hamlet except maybe in passing - there isn’t anything there for them. They are going to be looking for the king’s treasury or a dragon’s hoard etc.
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