I, too, am annoyed they didn't keep the custom background as per the UA.
It seems that they have a custom background option in the DMG 2024. I am not sure if you have had a chance to review that yet. The character creator still is using the 2014 background customization, but I am thinking that will soon be changed.
To be precise, there is no "Custom Backgrounds" in the 2024 DMG, but a "Creating a Background" section, like it is for Monsters, Magic Items or Spells. From how i read it, it is not meant for players, but for the DM to create a specific background for the player to fit their game. From the DMG:
Creating a unique background or customizing an existing one from the Player’s Handbook can reflect the particular theme of your campaign or elements of your world. You can also create a background to help a player craft the story they have in mind for their character.
It is a DM facing text how to create a background that fits your world. Not simply letting player's run hogwild with backgrounds. I would even go so far and say, the DM has the final word on Backgrounds and not players, unless the DM doesn't care.
I, too, am annoyed they didn't keep the custom background as per the UA.
It seems that they have a custom background option in the DMG 2024. I am not sure if you have had a chance to review that yet. The character creator still is using the 2014 background customization, but I am thinking that will soon be changed.
It's encouraging. No, I haven't had the chance to review that.
Ah! In case you don't yet have access, they have a section on it where you can choose any three ability scores that are relevant to you, an Origin feat, two skill proficiency improvements, a tool proficiency, and the equipment associated with the background worth up to 50gp.
I am not sure if this hits what you are looking for, but it seems to be allowing for complete customization. The most limiting thing IMO, is the Origin feat.
Which is it?
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
DM, player & homebrewer(Current homebrew project is an unofficial conversion of SBURB/SGRUB from Homestuck into DND 5e)
Once made Maxwell's Silver Hammer come down upon Strahd's head to make sure he was dead.
Always study & sharpen philosophical razors. They save a lot of trouble.
I don't want to say they are bad as written because it's not that really it, I just think they are really generic. Why Sailor? Why not Pirate? Sea Captain? Why not create feats dedicated to the background, something unique that is for them only?
It seems to me that all pirates and sea captains are sailors. Keeping it broader allows more flexibility in creating what you are looking for. Though pirate may appear one day. But probably not captain. A 1st level character won’t have been the captain. That said, I am looking forward to seeing them publish more backgrounds. I find these options perfectly serviceable, but I’d still love to see more.
Yeah your right of course and I think that for the PhB, this method of broad approach is fine, but yeah, as you said, I definitely think we need a lot more backgrounds, not just to have new things to pick, but to have backgrounds inspire character types.
Each new background should have a couple of new origin feats to choose from, new tool proficiencies and new tools.
I can definitely see stuff like Sea Captain, Pirate, Swashbuckler, Cabin Boy, Shipwright, Privateer... I could create backgrounds and origins feats all day, every day.
That's too many boat-related backgrounds. And as someone said upstream, even if you include that list of boat-themed backgrounds you'll still have the person who gets left out because you didn't include Whaler or Merchant Mariner. To be truly comprehensive would result in 100+ page books dedicated to backgrounds based on themes.
The backgrounds included in the 2024 PHB are a decent selection that show off the basics of how the new backgrounds work. I wanted the custom background to be included in the PHB, but it makes more sense that it's included in the 2024 DMG. I could go overboard creating custom backgrounds, but it does me no good if they don't mesh with the world my DM created. But this way I don't have to sift through a ton of backgrounds I don't want or that have the name of what I want but the stats don't match what I had in my head. I can just use the basic backgrounds included in the PHB and work with my DM to make a custom one.
You are right. For a TTRPG to make money in the long run, without going into the bloated content territory, they have to go the way of non-core things to be monetized.
It's not that simple; demand for non-core things is also limited (for example, how many orc minis do you need? Yes, some people want to make their WH40K miniature armies, but a lot are perfectly content with a handful of good enough). For physical product, there's some ongoing income from replacement of lost or broken things, but it's not enough, and even that isn't present for digital products. Which really leaves three options
New created/curated adventures is also an option. Unless they load them with new magic items, enemies, and/or custom player options, those can be added without adding any "bloat" as it were.
Enrif, what evidence do you have that this won't be added to the character builder for 2024 characters?
Because I see none for or against that notion.
Oh, it will likely be in the character builder like oathbreaker and death domain used to. But a Custom Background, from how it is presented in the DMG should be only be used under DM supervision, or rather be created by them and the player only puts in the changes. I read it in the same vein as the "Creating New Character Options" in the 2014 DMG. Players have set character options to choose from, anything that is not set, is to be made by the DM as homebrew.
You are right. For a TTRPG to make money in the long run, without going into the bloated content territory, they have to go the way of non-core things to be monetized.
It's not that simple; demand for non-core things is also limited (for example, how many orc minis do you need? Yes, some people want to make their WH40K miniature armies, but a lot are perfectly content with a handful of good enough). For physical product, there's some ongoing income from replacement of lost or broken things, but it's not enough, and even that isn't present for digital products. Which really leaves three options
New editions every so often.
Subscription-based services.
Ad-supported services.
Or they could give it away mostly for free and not pay executives excessive amounts that result in more profit loss than poor quality goods & services in order to fulfill their obligations to investors under US law.
But let's be realistic:Hasbro is not Paizo.
So, barring intelligent moves like investors ordering the slashing of executive payouts to ironically fulfill corrupt domestic legal obligations to said investors, or empty hopes like The Revolution(TM), the best people can do is not engage in anything. Don't buy, don't talk about, don't watch or listen, don't even Errol Flynn anything at all that doesn't bring you joy.
Me? I'm waiting for Sigil's inevitable excess desperate Zynga-esque monetization to be the endgame.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
DM, player & homebrewer(Current homebrew project is an unofficial conversion of SBURB/SGRUB from Homestuck into DND 5e)
Once made Maxwell's Silver Hammer come down upon Strahd's head to make sure he was dead.
Always study & sharpen philosophical razors. They save a lot of trouble.
Enrif, what evidence do you have that this won't be added to the character builder for 2024 characters?
Because I see none for or against that notion.
Oh, it will likely be in the character builder like oathbreaker and death domain used to. But a Custom Background, from how it is presented in the DMG should be only be used under DM supervision, or rather be created by them and the player only puts in the changes. I read it in the same vein as the "Creating New Character Options" in the 2014 DMG. Players have set character options to choose from, anything that is not set, is to be made by the DM as homebrew.
"Power creep bad, here's limitations, player choice good, confused dev noises", all over again.
Apparently limiting the custom background rules to DM supervision is not an acceptable limitation.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
DM, player & homebrewer(Current homebrew project is an unofficial conversion of SBURB/SGRUB from Homestuck into DND 5e)
Once made Maxwell's Silver Hammer come down upon Strahd's head to make sure he was dead.
Always study & sharpen philosophical razors. They save a lot of trouble.
Limited market, and with no way to expire old adventures, limit to how much new you can do. Dungeon magazine existed for years but was never a big profit driver and eventually got shut down. A living campaign (e.g. living greyhawk) with adventures that are fitted to the current year of the campaign is an option for an ongoing series of adventures, but historical evidence is that it would wind up having a small (but possibly intense) fan base.
Enrif, what evidence do you have that this won't be added to the character builder for 2024 characters?
Because I see none for or against that notion.
Oh, it will likely be in the character builder like oathbreaker and death domain used to. But a Custom Background, from how it is presented in the DMG should be only be used under DM supervision, or rather be created by them and the player only puts in the changes. I read it in the same vein as the "Creating New Character Options" in the 2014 DMG. Players have set character options to choose from, anything that is not set, is to be made by the DM as homebrew.
"Power creep bad, here's limitations, player choice good, confused dev noises", all over again.
Apparently limiting the custom background rules to DM supervision is not an acceptable limitation.
I think it is fine to treat backgrounds like we treats race/species, class, subclass, feats, spells and items. All of them are set by the rules, unless the DM makes or approves homebrew. The old background rules for custom backgrounds were the outlier in the whole system. Reining them in, to be beholden to the same assumption of the rest of the game just makes sense.
Note: this is all a moot point. Regardless of whether they provide a player-facing tool matching the DMG's system, they (the PHB) already have a player-facing option to add the 2024 features to 2014 backgrounds, including the 2014 custom background system. And they (dndbeyond) has already stated the intent to implement that system, even though it's not fully implemented yet.
You are right. For a TTRPG to make money in the long run, without going into the bloated content territory, they have to go the way of non-core things to be monetized.
It's not that simple; demand for non-core things is also limited (for example, how many orc minis do you need? Yes, some people want to make their WH40K miniature armies, but a lot are perfectly content with a handful of good enough). For physical product, there's some ongoing income from replacement of lost or broken things, but it's not enough, and even that isn't present for digital products. Which really leaves three options
New editions every so often.
Subscription-based services.
Ad-supported services.
New Edition, real new edition, are a high risk and usually only make sense when the sales have gone so low that you have to take the risk. At best we see revisions like the 2024 ones, but even than, only in like 10 more years
Sub based services fulfill everything i have said. Here on DNDBeyond with a sub you get the following: You can share your material, you get character builder UI customizations (frames, background, dice), and i'm sure once their VTT comes your sub will get you minis there from time to time too.
Ad-supported services are possible, but unlikely.
If there is another option it would be licensing. Either licensing the D&D IP out, or licensing other IPs to put them into D&D to appeal to more people.
I, too, am annoyed they didn't keep the custom background as per the UA.
It seems that they have a custom background option in the DMG 2024. I am not sure if you have had a chance to review that yet. The character creator still is using the 2014 background customization, but I am thinking that will soon be changed.
It's encouraging. No, I haven't had the chance to review that.
Ah! In case you don't yet have access, they have a section on it where you can choose any three ability scores that are relevant to you, an Origin feat, two skill proficiency improvements, a tool proficiency, and the equipment associated with the background worth up to 50gp.
I am not sure if this hits what you are looking for, but it seems to be allowing for complete customization. The most limiting thing IMO, is the Origin feat.
The way I read it, it’s suggesting you don’t pick any 3. You choose one of str and dex, or con, or one of int and wis, or cha. Basically don’t double up on str and dex, or on wis and int. I’m thinking that forces every background to have at least one mental and one physical (realistically it will be 2 and 1). But you shouldn’t do a background that boosts str, dex and con, for example.
I waited until the 5.5 (2024) DMG was available to me to comment on this topic. As this right here solves everything.
Creating a Background
A character’s background represents what the character did prior to becoming an adventurer. Creating a unique background or customizing an existing one from the Player’s Handbook can reflect the particular theme of your campaign or elements of your world. You can also create a background to help a player craft the story they have in mind for their character.
This section describes, step by step, how you can create backgrounds like the ones in the Player’s Handbook, tailored for your world and the heroes in it.
1: Choose Abilities
Choose three abilities that seem appropriate for the background:
Strength or Dexterity. These abilities are ideal for a background involving physical exertion.
Constitution. This ability is ideal for a background that involves endurance or long hours of activity.
Intelligence or Wisdom. One or both abilities are ideal for a background that focuses on cerebral or spiritual matters.
Charisma. This ability is ideal for a background that involves performance or social interaction.
Choose two skills appropriate for the background. There needn’t be a relationship between the skill proficiencies a background grants and the ability scores it increases.
4: Choose a Tool Proficiency
Choose one tool used in the practice of the background or often associated with it.
5: Choose Equipment
Assemble a package of equipment worth 50 GP (including unspent gold). Don’t include Martial weapons or armor, as characters get them from their class choices.
I, too, am annoyed they didn't keep the custom background as per the UA.
It seems that they have a custom background option in the DMG 2024. I am not sure if you have had a chance to review that yet. The character creator still is using the 2014 background customization, but I am thinking that will soon be changed.
It's encouraging. No, I haven't had the chance to review that.
Ah! In case you don't yet have access, they have a section on it where you can choose any three ability scores that are relevant to you, an Origin feat, two skill proficiency improvements, a tool proficiency, and the equipment associated with the background worth up to 50gp.
I am not sure if this hits what you are looking for, but it seems to be allowing for complete customization. The most limiting thing IMO, is the Origin feat.
The way I read it, it’s suggesting you don’t pick any 3. You choose one of str and dex, or con, or one of int and wis, or cha. Basically don’t double up on str and dex, or on wis and int. I’m thinking that forces every background to have at least one mental and one physical (realistically it will be 2 and 1). But you shouldn’t do a background that boosts str, dex and con, for example.
That's too many boat-related backgrounds. And as someone said upstream, even if you include that list of boat-themed backgrounds you'll still have the person who gets left out because you didn't include Whaler or Merchant Mariner. To be truly comprehensive would result in 100+ page books dedicated to backgrounds based on themes.
The backgrounds included in the 2024 PHB are a decent selection that show off the basics of how the new backgrounds work. I wanted the custom background to be included in the PHB, but it makes more sense that it's included in the 2024 DMG. I could go overboard creating custom backgrounds, but it does me no good if they don't mesh with the world my DM created. But this way I don't have to sift through a ton of backgrounds I don't want or that have the name of what I want but the stats don't match what I had in my head. I can just use the basic backgrounds included in the PHB and work with my DM to make a custom one.
I understand what you mean but I think there are a couple of things that you're not really connecting here.
Backgrounds are and should be customizable and we already know in the end this will be true (covered in the DMG) but this still doesn't offer a complete answer to backgrounds. Customization is not the same as creation. For example, creating a custom background according to the DMG is unlikely to include the creation of new feats, tools or tool proficiencies to enhance and make the background truly unique. In the context of customization by the rules, it's going to be more like re-arranging the pieces that already exist which is still going to be extremely limited narratively and mechanically.
The other thing is that even within the scope of creation (rather than customization), most tables are going to have the same problem they have when it comes to any other types of creations, there is a kind of presumption that if you swing the door open to creation, rather than customization, you're risking the balance of your game. So most DM's will stick to "official rules" or "official content".
This means that even if the DM guild offers books of creations (not just customizations) of backgrounds, most tables are not going to use them. They might if it's an official Wizards of the Coast book, but I can tell you as an author of such books (Book of Backgrounds - Family Legacies), while a tiny insignificant amount of people picked up the book, this is never going to be normalized at most tables. Being in an official Wizards of the Coast published rulebook is the only way backgrounds are ever going to go grow beyond the confines of the generic architecture you see in the players handbook.
To answer your question more specifically, yeah, I think a book of background creations with 100+ backgrounds would be awesome and yes I think there is plenty of creative space and reason to get specific if we are talking about true creation (not just customization). I think if you include detailed and interesting themes and descriptions for the backgrounds, you offer unique equipment, like tools, new tools proficiencies and new origin feats to support these new concepts, backgrounds can be so much more fun and interesting with tons of creativity to inspire players when it comes to character creation and I think that should be the point of backgrounds. Choosing a background could be almost as robust and interesting of a choice as picking your class or species.
Just to give you a paraphrased example and only because I'm super passionate about this, I will give you a small excerpt from the sort of thing Im talking about. In my more recent book I created a background called "The Blood Magic Legacy". This was a background all about how someone in your family messed around with blood magic, a sort of evil and powerful form of magic that tainted your family bloodline. They were a member of a kind of blood sorcery cult and as a descendent of this family member you have inherited some of that power and are seen by these cults as one of them. With this background you gain a new origin feat (you pick one from two possible feats - Powerful Blood or Bloodrage), you also gain a new tool proficiency called The Blood Letting Toolkit.
When you get this detailed and specific about your background choice, you add something truly unique to your character's origin, something that really says something about who you are far beyond just a simple generic "Solidier" or "Sage".
I really hope that in the future, when Wizards of the Coasts puts out new settings and new adventures, creating unique, interesting, and specific backgrounds like this with new origin feats becomes normalized because I really think there is a lot of potential of backgrounds being a much bigger part of character creation and the narrative juice that adds to the character creation processes. Alleviating some of the pressure of having to create elaborate backstories which very often can overburden players.
"Power creep bad"
"Okay, here's limitations"
"Player choice good"
*Confused game designer noises*
DM, player & homebrewer(Current homebrew project is an unofficial conversion of SBURB/SGRUB from Homestuck into DND 5e)
Once made Maxwell's Silver Hammer come down upon Strahd's head to make sure he was dead.
Always study & sharpen philosophical razors. They save a lot of trouble.
Which is it?
DM, player & homebrewer(Current homebrew project is an unofficial conversion of SBURB/SGRUB from Homestuck into DND 5e)
Once made Maxwell's Silver Hammer come down upon Strahd's head to make sure he was dead.
Always study & sharpen philosophical razors. They save a lot of trouble.
That's too many boat-related backgrounds. And as someone said upstream, even if you include that list of boat-themed backgrounds you'll still have the person who gets left out because you didn't include Whaler or Merchant Mariner. To be truly comprehensive would result in 100+ page books dedicated to backgrounds based on themes.
The backgrounds included in the 2024 PHB are a decent selection that show off the basics of how the new backgrounds work. I wanted the custom background to be included in the PHB, but it makes more sense that it's included in the 2024 DMG. I could go overboard creating custom backgrounds, but it does me no good if they don't mesh with the world my DM created. But this way I don't have to sift through a ton of backgrounds I don't want or that have the name of what I want but the stats don't match what I had in my head. I can just use the basic backgrounds included in the PHB and work with my DM to make a custom one.
OK, had a look.
Enrif, what evidence do you have that this won't be added to the character builder for 2024 characters?
Because I see none for or against that notion.
DM, player & homebrewer(Current homebrew project is an unofficial conversion of SBURB/SGRUB from Homestuck into DND 5e)
Once made Maxwell's Silver Hammer come down upon Strahd's head to make sure he was dead.
Always study & sharpen philosophical razors. They save a lot of trouble.
It's not that simple; demand for non-core things is also limited (for example, how many orc minis do you need? Yes, some people want to make their WH40K miniature armies, but a lot are perfectly content with a handful of good enough). For physical product, there's some ongoing income from replacement of lost or broken things, but it's not enough, and even that isn't present for digital products. Which really leaves three options
New created/curated adventures is also an option. Unless they load them with new magic items, enemies, and/or custom player options, those can be added without adding any "bloat" as it were.
Oh, it will likely be in the character builder like oathbreaker and death domain used to. But a Custom Background, from how it is presented in the DMG should be only be used under DM supervision, or rather be created by them and the player only puts in the changes. I read it in the same vein as the "Creating New Character Options" in the 2014 DMG. Players have set character options to choose from, anything that is not set, is to be made by the DM as homebrew.
Or they could give it away mostly for free and not pay executives excessive amounts that result in more profit loss than poor quality goods & services in order to fulfill their obligations to investors under US law.
But let's be realistic:Hasbro is not Paizo.
So, barring intelligent moves like investors ordering the slashing of executive payouts to ironically fulfill corrupt domestic legal obligations to said investors, or empty hopes like The Revolution(TM), the best people can do is not engage in anything. Don't buy, don't talk about, don't watch or listen, don't even Errol Flynn anything at all that doesn't bring you joy.
Me? I'm waiting for Sigil's inevitable excess desperate Zynga-esque monetization to be the endgame.
DM, player & homebrewer(Current homebrew project is an unofficial conversion of SBURB/SGRUB from Homestuck into DND 5e)
Once made Maxwell's Silver Hammer come down upon Strahd's head to make sure he was dead.
Always study & sharpen philosophical razors. They save a lot of trouble.
"Power creep bad, here's limitations, player choice good, confused dev noises", all over again.
Apparently limiting the custom background rules to DM supervision is not an acceptable limitation.
DM, player & homebrewer(Current homebrew project is an unofficial conversion of SBURB/SGRUB from Homestuck into DND 5e)
Once made Maxwell's Silver Hammer come down upon Strahd's head to make sure he was dead.
Always study & sharpen philosophical razors. They save a lot of trouble.
Limited market, and with no way to expire old adventures, limit to how much new you can do. Dungeon magazine existed for years but was never a big profit driver and eventually got shut down. A living campaign (e.g. living greyhawk) with adventures that are fitted to the current year of the campaign is an option for an ongoing series of adventures, but historical evidence is that it would wind up having a small (but possibly intense) fan base.
I think it is fine to treat backgrounds like we treats race/species, class, subclass, feats, spells and items. All of them are set by the rules, unless the DM makes or approves homebrew. The old background rules for custom backgrounds were the outlier in the whole system. Reining them in, to be beholden to the same assumption of the rest of the game just makes sense.
Note: this is all a moot point. Regardless of whether they provide a player-facing tool matching the DMG's system, they (the PHB) already have a player-facing option to add the 2024 features to 2014 backgrounds, including the 2014 custom background system. And they (dndbeyond) has already stated the intent to implement that system, even though it's not fully implemented yet.
New Edition, real new edition, are a high risk and usually only make sense when the sales have gone so low that you have to take the risk. At best we see revisions like the 2024 ones, but even than, only in like 10 more years
Sub based services fulfill everything i have said. Here on DNDBeyond with a sub you get the following: You can share your material, you get character builder UI customizations (frames, background, dice), and i'm sure once their VTT comes your sub will get you minis there from time to time too.
Ad-supported services are possible, but unlikely.
If there is another option it would be licensing. Either licensing the D&D IP out, or licensing other IPs to put them into D&D to appeal to more people.
By your definitions, Paizo is also not Paizo. They're a for-profit corporation with their own share of dubious business practices.
The way I read it, it’s suggesting you don’t pick any 3. You choose one of str and dex, or con, or one of int and wis, or cha. Basically don’t double up on str and dex, or on wis and int.
I’m thinking that forces every background to have at least one mental and one physical (realistically it will be 2 and 1). But you shouldn’t do a background that boosts str, dex and con, for example.
Though I may definitely be misreading it.
I waited until the 5.5 (2024) DMG was available to me to comment on this topic. As this right here solves everything.
You are correct and I have misread it.
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I understand what you mean but I think there are a couple of things that you're not really connecting here.
Backgrounds are and should be customizable and we already know in the end this will be true (covered in the DMG) but this still doesn't offer a complete answer to backgrounds. Customization is not the same as creation. For example, creating a custom background according to the DMG is unlikely to include the creation of new feats, tools or tool proficiencies to enhance and make the background truly unique. In the context of customization by the rules, it's going to be more like re-arranging the pieces that already exist which is still going to be extremely limited narratively and mechanically.
The other thing is that even within the scope of creation (rather than customization), most tables are going to have the same problem they have when it comes to any other types of creations, there is a kind of presumption that if you swing the door open to creation, rather than customization, you're risking the balance of your game. So most DM's will stick to "official rules" or "official content".
This means that even if the DM guild offers books of creations (not just customizations) of backgrounds, most tables are not going to use them. They might if it's an official Wizards of the Coast book, but I can tell you as an author of such books (Book of Backgrounds - Family Legacies), while a tiny insignificant amount of people picked up the book, this is never going to be normalized at most tables. Being in an official Wizards of the Coast published rulebook is the only way backgrounds are ever going to go grow beyond the confines of the generic architecture you see in the players handbook.
To answer your question more specifically, yeah, I think a book of background creations with 100+ backgrounds would be awesome and yes I think there is plenty of creative space and reason to get specific if we are talking about true creation (not just customization). I think if you include detailed and interesting themes and descriptions for the backgrounds, you offer unique equipment, like tools, new tools proficiencies and new origin feats to support these new concepts, backgrounds can be so much more fun and interesting with tons of creativity to inspire players when it comes to character creation and I think that should be the point of backgrounds. Choosing a background could be almost as robust and interesting of a choice as picking your class or species.
Just to give you a paraphrased example and only because I'm super passionate about this, I will give you a small excerpt from the sort of thing Im talking about. In my more recent book I created a background called "The Blood Magic Legacy". This was a background all about how someone in your family messed around with blood magic, a sort of evil and powerful form of magic that tainted your family bloodline. They were a member of a kind of blood sorcery cult and as a descendent of this family member you have inherited some of that power and are seen by these cults as one of them. With this background you gain a new origin feat (you pick one from two possible feats - Powerful Blood or Bloodrage), you also gain a new tool proficiency called The Blood Letting Toolkit.
When you get this detailed and specific about your background choice, you add something truly unique to your character's origin, something that really says something about who you are far beyond just a simple generic "Solidier" or "Sage".
I really hope that in the future, when Wizards of the Coasts puts out new settings and new adventures, creating unique, interesting, and specific backgrounds like this with new origin feats becomes normalized because I really think there is a lot of potential of backgrounds being a much bigger part of character creation and the narrative juice that adds to the character creation processes. Alleviating some of the pressure of having to create elaborate backstories which very often can overburden players.
Tell me something I haven't heard before.
At least they aren't turning Pathfinder into Farmville Starring DND.
DM, player & homebrewer(Current homebrew project is an unofficial conversion of SBURB/SGRUB from Homestuck into DND 5e)
Once made Maxwell's Silver Hammer come down upon Strahd's head to make sure he was dead.
Always study & sharpen philosophical razors. They save a lot of trouble.
I'm at loss to what you're even talking about. Possibly a reference to bastions?