While i agree D-tier subclasses should get another pass (purple dragon knight, battle rager, sun soul) i wouldn't say that other favorites shouldn't get a facelift too.
The Cavalier was basically the PDK/Banneret's do-over in my opinion. Never seen anyone call the Sun Soul weak before though.
Swashbuckler for example should be played with a rapier for the flavor, but since rogues now have weapon masteries, and for rapier it is Vex, makes the Rakish Audacity feature not as worthwhile anymore, since you can easily create your own advantage with any Vex weapon.
Just my 2 cents but I doubt they'd overhaul Rakish Audacity just for rapiers. They're still getting their Initiative bonus, and the Vex property is letting them get that second D20 roll that a TWF Rogue naturally gets without having to give up Fancy Footwork to use Steady Aim. Rakish Audacity is only really useful against weak enemies you can take out in one Sneak Attack anyways. If an enemy doesn't fold in one round, there's usually going to be allies next to them on your next turn.
For a updated Swasbuckler i think a update would for Rakish Audacity would incorporate the vex feature, making it so you can use the advantage from Vex on other targets too. Panache uses a contested Check, which is not a thing anymore and would have to be replaced by a saving throw, and Master Duelist is heavily overshadowed by the new Boon of Combat Prowess.
Replacing the contest with a save would actually weaken it, and this is a rare instance where using a contest for a combat mechanic isn't a problem. It doesn't matter much how high you can get the success rate of Panache, it doesn't protect the Rogue from the charmed enemy at all and the effect breaks if their allies intervene. Contests were a problem for grapples and shoves because they actually disable enemies and you could get near 100% success rates pretty easily.
Master Duelist being similar to Boon of Combat Prowess just frees them up to pick Boon of Fate or Boon of Fortitude, which are also perfectly thematic in my opinion. A good swashbuckling hero should have plot armor.
I would like to put my vote in for Swashbuckler as well. Rogue is my most played class and the new PHB subclasses are pretty good in my opinion with Arcane Trickster being right at the top. As far as the other classes go I think I would like Kensei Monk updated to have weapon masteries and maybe take the oportunity to completely rework Arcane Archer.
Edit: I forgot to add Shadow Sorcerer and Shepherd Druid to that list.
Kensei already has specific benefits for using Kensei weapons and there's no way they're giving Topple for free to the class with Stunning Strike and 2-3 bonus action grapple opportunities.
I'd bet good money on Arcane Archer being near the top of the list for a reprint though. I strongly disagree but most people consider it underpowered.
I'd bet good money on Arcane Archer being near the top of the list for a reprint though. I strongly disagree but most people consider it underpowered.
One of my players was an Arcane Archer and had a great time but I didn't think it scales very well, only having two uses of your arrows is great at level 3 when it comes online but when you're level 20 and still only have two uses you burn through them quickly
The special shots are much stronger than Battle Master maneuvers and some of them have the potential to hit multiple targets. Curving Shot gives them a bonus action extra attack reasonably often, they get a free shot every time they get into combat without one at level 15, and their shots double in power at 18.
The 2024 Great Weapon Master lets longbow users add their PB to their damage.
Grasping Arrow has always been extremely abusable (no initial save, can't be wasted, the shove mechanics were easy to game under the 2014 rules), and now anyone with a Push weapon gets a free 2d6 and 10th level Fighters can always Push with their longbow attacks.
What subclasses do you want to return in the 2024 ruleset?
In my opinion. I want all the AD&D Kit Classes, all the 3/3.5 classes and prestige classes, all the 4th edition classes, and all the 5.0 classes updated to 5.5. They have 50 years of DnD to pull from and they should make use of it.
I would love to see prestige classes make a comeback. Those were a really fun concept. You could maybe even get at it through a couple feats, maybe.
The special shots are much stronger than Battle Master maneuvers and some of them have the potential to hit multiple targets. Curving Shot gives them a bonus action extra attack reasonably often, they get a free shot every time they get into combat without one at level 15, and their shots double in power at 18.
The 2024 Great Weapon Master lets longbow users add their PB to their damage.
Grasping Arrow has always been extremely abusable (no initial save, can't be wasted, the shove mechanics were easy to game under the 2014 rules), and now anyone with a Push weapon gets a free 2d6 and 10th level Fighters can always Push with their longbow attacks.
I totally agree that some of them are powerful when used but the two uses gives us the same problem as Warlock's two spell slots: nobody uses them. Especially if you're on a dungeon crawl or doing the idealised 6-8 encounters a day there's that constant "I've only got two uses so I'd better save them for something special" and before you know it you've gone the whole day without using them, and at that point you might as well not have a subclass
If a player has resource hoarding syndrome they should be playing something like a Champion or a Rogue in my opinion. Not every class is suitable for everyone, but their resources should still be balanced around the assumption they're not going to go completely unused.
EDIT: I'd also point out that 2024 Prayer of Healing gives a short rest once/day which also mitigates some of these issues.
Kensei already has specific benefits for using Kensei weapons and there's no way they're giving Topple for free to the class with Stunning Strike and 2-3 bonus action grapple opportunities.
I'd bet good money on Arcane Archer being near the top of the list for a reprint though. I strongly disagree but most people consider it underpowered.
Do you have an actual answer for the topic of the thread or are you just here to naysay what others would like to see? I am sure there is at least one subclass that YOU want updated right?
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All of the ones that did need fixing in my opinion (Champion, Beastmaster, Wild Magic, the Assassin's Assassinate feature) were already fixed. Battlerager still sucks but that's specific to Forgotten Realms so that's not going to end up in any general-purpose books either way. Almost everything that came out after the 2014 PHB was much better tested and put together.
EDIT: Oh yeah I wanted to see the Celestial Warlock not be a second-class citizen too but that also got fixed with the Sphinx of Wonder and letting the Eldritch Blast Invocations work on any damaging cantrip.
I'd bet good money on Arcane Archer being near the top of the list for a reprint though. I strongly disagree but most people consider it underpowered.
One of my players was an Arcane Archer and had a great time but I didn't think it scales very well, only having two uses of your arrows is great at level 3 when it comes online but when you're level 20 and still only have two uses you burn through them quickly
thats all of 5th ed though. Its balanced around level 5 with anything after lvl 9 being an after thought. They literally didn't care how things would play out at higher levels.
All of the ones that did need fixing in my opinion (Champion, Beastmaster, Wild Magic, the Assassin's Assassinate feature) were already fixed. Battlerager still sucks but that's specific to Forgotten Realms so that's not going to end up in any general-purpose books either way. Almost everything that came out after the 2014 PHB was much better tested and put together.
I think that is pretty much how I feel about the new subclasses. With the Forgotten Realms books coming out next year, I think there is a very good chance of seeing an updated Battlerager. I also think that with the books being divided into DM and Player books, we are likely to see other Subclasses appear. As was noted in another post, I wouldn't be surprised at all to see Necromancer appear there.
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A bit off topic but related to the subclasses and future books, I hope that they continue to keep the number of Subclasses in each book even. As in all classes get the same number of subclasses like in the PHB.
A bit off topic but related to the subclasses and future books, I hope that they continue to keep the number of Subclasses in each book even. As in all classes get the same number of subclasses like in the PHB.
I'd go the other way. Requiring all classes to have the exact same number of subclasses just makes everything more samey and pointless. Lets be honest, many of the subclasses were not all that different, and 95% of them was just rp flavor. Bards with swords or bards without swords. Some of those 5.0 bard subclasses felt functionally identical.
Some classes like casters lend themselves to quite a difference, while other classes are more bland because they simply have less to work with. Why hold some classes back in the name of poor game development? 5th ed already suffers greatly from homoginizing everything, making it all samey and bland. Why add to the pile?
Yeah, Arcane Archer could maybe do with a redo. There's a good reason why when I asked in my more naive days for a good archer build, they directed me to the Ranger. AA sounds cool...but struggles.
The three main issues I see are firstly, that only two shots in any fight utilise its core concept. Good at the beginning when you're likely to only get three shots in a fight anyway, but awful at level 20 when you're getting 12 shots and only two are according to your key feature. Secondly, they suffer from the same issue as the Sorcerer - their concept is built around flexibility, but they have only a very few options, and that list only slowly expands. They could afford to just grant the whole list from the start. Thirdly, the only flavourful and impactful features you get in a normal campaign that isn't just slowly increasing the number of options that could be easily available from the start are 7th level. One makes your shots magical (except by then you'd hope to have a magical bow anyway) and Curving Shot. CS isn't bad, but it's basically "use your Bonus Action for Pseudo-Advantage which can only be used against a different target", which is cool and all...but isn't game-changing in the backdrop of the other issues.
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I definitely think they need to add Mastermind Rogue or Sun Soul Monk. Sun Soul monk would be getting a very good buff with the raised Martial Arts die, so it does a bit more damage earlier on. Also, Mastermind was just so fun.
Good catch with the Sun Soul. The d4 is kind of a non-issue since the sun bolts adopt the damage of your Martial Arts, but now that Flurry of Blows increases to 3 attacks at higher levels, the Bonus Action from the subclass no longer keeps up.
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The Cavalier was basically the PDK/Banneret's do-over in my opinion. Never seen anyone call the Sun Soul weak before though.
Just my 2 cents but I doubt they'd overhaul Rakish Audacity just for rapiers. They're still getting their Initiative bonus, and the Vex property is letting them get that second D20 roll that a TWF Rogue naturally gets without having to give up Fancy Footwork to use Steady Aim. Rakish Audacity is only really useful against weak enemies you can take out in one Sneak Attack anyways. If an enemy doesn't fold in one round, there's usually going to be allies next to them on your next turn.
Replacing the contest with a save would actually weaken it, and this is a rare instance where using a contest for a combat mechanic isn't a problem. It doesn't matter much how high you can get the success rate of Panache, it doesn't protect the Rogue from the charmed enemy at all and the effect breaks if their allies intervene. Contests were a problem for grapples and shoves because they actually disable enemies and you could get near 100% success rates pretty easily.
Master Duelist being similar to Boon of Combat Prowess just frees them up to pick Boon of Fate or Boon of Fortitude, which are also perfectly thematic in my opinion. A good swashbuckling hero should have plot armor.
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I would like to put my vote in for Swashbuckler as well. Rogue is my most played class and the new PHB subclasses are pretty good in my opinion with Arcane Trickster being right at the top. As far as the other classes go I think I would like Kensei Monk updated to have weapon masteries and maybe take the oportunity to completely rework Arcane Archer.
Edit: I forgot to add Shadow Sorcerer and Shepherd Druid to that list.
Mother and Cat Herder. Playing TTRPGs since 1989 (She/Her)
Kensei already has specific benefits for using Kensei weapons and there's no way they're giving Topple for free to the class with Stunning Strike and 2-3 bonus action grapple opportunities.
I'd bet good money on Arcane Archer being near the top of the list for a reprint though. I strongly disagree but most people consider it underpowered.
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One of my players was an Arcane Archer and had a great time but I didn't think it scales very well, only having two uses of your arrows is great at level 3 when it comes online but when you're level 20 and still only have two uses you burn through them quickly
The special shots are much stronger than Battle Master maneuvers and some of them have the potential to hit multiple targets. Curving Shot gives them a bonus action extra attack reasonably often, they get a free shot every time they get into combat without one at level 15, and their shots double in power at 18.
The 2024 Great Weapon Master lets longbow users add their PB to their damage.
Grasping Arrow has always been extremely abusable (no initial save, can't be wasted, the shove mechanics were easy to game under the 2014 rules), and now anyone with a Push weapon gets a free 2d6 and 10th level Fighters can always Push with their longbow attacks.
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I would love to see prestige classes make a comeback. Those were a really fun concept. You could maybe even get at it through a couple feats, maybe.
I totally agree that some of them are powerful when used but the two uses gives us the same problem as Warlock's two spell slots: nobody uses them. Especially if you're on a dungeon crawl or doing the idealised 6-8 encounters a day there's that constant "I've only got two uses so I'd better save them for something special" and before you know it you've gone the whole day without using them, and at that point you might as well not have a subclass
If a player has resource hoarding syndrome they should be playing something like a Champion or a Rogue in my opinion. Not every class is suitable for everyone, but their resources should still be balanced around the assumption they're not going to go completely unused.
EDIT: I'd also point out that 2024 Prayer of Healing gives a short rest once/day which also mitigates some of these issues.
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Do you have an actual answer for the topic of the thread or are you just here to naysay what others would like to see? I am sure there is at least one subclass that YOU want updated right?
Mother and Cat Herder. Playing TTRPGs since 1989 (She/Her)
All of the ones that did need fixing in my opinion (Champion, Beastmaster, Wild Magic, the Assassin's Assassinate feature) were already fixed. Battlerager still sucks but that's specific to Forgotten Realms so that's not going to end up in any general-purpose books either way. Almost everything that came out after the 2014 PHB was much better tested and put together.
EDIT: Oh yeah I wanted to see the Celestial Warlock not be a second-class citizen too but that also got fixed with the Sphinx of Wonder and letting the Eldritch Blast Invocations work on any damaging cantrip.
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There is only one correct answer - necromancer
thats all of 5th ed though. Its balanced around level 5 with anything after lvl 9 being an after thought. They literally didn't care how things would play out at higher levels.
I think that is pretty much how I feel about the new subclasses. With the Forgotten Realms books coming out next year, I think there is a very good chance of seeing an updated Battlerager. I also think that with the books being divided into DM and Player books, we are likely to see other Subclasses appear. As was noted in another post, I wouldn't be surprised at all to see Necromancer appear there.
Mother and Cat Herder. Playing TTRPGs since 1989 (She/Her)
A bit off topic but related to the subclasses and future books, I hope that they continue to keep the number of Subclasses in each book even. As in all classes get the same number of subclasses like in the PHB.
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Bladesinger please. I am wondering if that will be in the Forgotten Realms player's guide.
I'd go the other way. Requiring all classes to have the exact same number of subclasses just makes everything more samey and pointless. Lets be honest, many of the subclasses were not all that different, and 95% of them was just rp flavor. Bards with swords or bards without swords. Some of those 5.0 bard subclasses felt functionally identical.
Some classes like casters lend themselves to quite a difference, while other classes are more bland because they simply have less to work with. Why hold some classes back in the name of poor game development? 5th ed already suffers greatly from homoginizing everything, making it all samey and bland. Why add to the pile?
Yeah, Arcane Archer could maybe do with a redo. There's a good reason why when I asked in my more naive days for a good archer build, they directed me to the Ranger. AA sounds cool...but struggles.
The three main issues I see are firstly, that only two shots in any fight utilise its core concept. Good at the beginning when you're likely to only get three shots in a fight anyway, but awful at level 20 when you're getting 12 shots and only two are according to your key feature. Secondly, they suffer from the same issue as the Sorcerer - their concept is built around flexibility, but they have only a very few options, and that list only slowly expands. They could afford to just grant the whole list from the start. Thirdly, the only flavourful and impactful features you get in a normal campaign that isn't just slowly increasing the number of options that could be easily available from the start are 7th level. One makes your shots magical (except by then you'd hope to have a magical bow anyway) and Curving Shot. CS isn't bad, but it's basically "use your Bonus Action for Pseudo-Advantage which can only be used against a different target", which is cool and all...but isn't game-changing in the backdrop of the other issues.
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
I want most to be untouched unless they're bad and unplayable. Fix the worst and leave the rest.
And, really, I want more new stuff rather than old.
I definitely think they need to add Mastermind Rogue or Sun Soul Monk. Sun Soul monk would be getting a very good buff with the raised Martial Arts die, so it does a bit more damage earlier on. Also, Mastermind was just so fun.
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Good catch with the Sun Soul. The d4 is kind of a non-issue since the sun bolts adopt the damage of your Martial Arts, but now that Flurry of Blows increases to 3 attacks at higher levels, the Bonus Action from the subclass no longer keeps up.
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