I know Wizards are a bit guarded when it comes to sales numbers. But apparently BookScan is showing the new PHB has sold less than 4,000 copies. Some might say these figures aren't the most accurate of estimations of all sold copies. And they would be right. But the very same industry data provider says Tasha's sold around 130,000 copies on release. I predicted earlier the new books were not going to see the love the game has seen over the past decade. 5th's popularity has been unprecedented. But many seem happy with it or happy with how they have hacked it for their tables. Have no desire to upgrade. This might change. But I seriously doubt it.
I think adoption of new rules for a game you already have rules for is a fairly slow crawl - in no way comparable to say box office sales for new hyped up movie. Propably in a year or two, pretty much everyone is playing 2024. Just as the pattern has always been for new editions (as far as I know - I can't absolutely swear that there's never been a rush to pick up a new rulebook, it just doesn't feel that way).
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Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
I'm comparing it to STA though (whose 2e is fairly comparable to 2024e in terms of circumstances and being compatible with existing rules etc), and those numbers seem awfully low, especially given that D&D is far more widely known etc. it also doesn't really jive with the fact that they had printing problems. We had a copy of a letter from a bookstore saying less than 10,000 had been sent to Australia (or an area of Australia - it wasn't clear which it was referencing) and so there was going to be a major shortage. None of that jives with the estimate that only 4,000 copies have been sold.
I strongly suspect that estimate is very wrong, to the point that it can't even be used as indicative alongside the Tasha's numbers.
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You might be right that many are waiting until all three books are out or that it may just take some time. (But if either of these explanations have the ring of truth to them it makes even less sense for this site to seek to impose the new ruleset on people who would rather wait.)
And 4,000 copies of a PHB but 130,000 of a needless supplement?
It's not the first time we have seen a staggered release of those core three books.
And 4,000 copies is dismally low.
I currently play in four different groups. One person has bought the new PHB. Some have stated they are not interested because they are more than satisfied with the books they have. Particularly given that those who DM 5th. among them have heavily modified the game anyway.
Some of the catalysts for 5th's unprecedented popularity are now in decline. The game will dominate the hobby like it always has. But I would wager a dragon's hoard the 2024 core books do not sell as well as those from 2014.
I'm comparing it to STA though (whose 2e is fairly comparable to 2024e in terms of circumstances and being compatible with existing rules etc), and those numbers seem awfully low, especially given that D&D is far more widely known etc. it also doesn't really jive with the fact that they had printing problems. We had a copy of a letter from a bookstore saying less than 10,000 had been sent to Australia (or an area of Australia - it wasn't clear which it was referencing) and so there was going to be a major shortage. None of that jives with the estimate that only 4,000 copies have been sold.
I strongly suspect that estimate is very wrong, to the point that it can't even be used as indicative alongside the Tasha's numbers.
BookScan is the most trusted data provider in the publishing industry as far as book sales go accounting for about eighty-five percent of all sales.
More than 4,000 copies have obviously been sold. But that figure compared to that 130,000 for a needless supplement from the same source? That does not look good. At all. If the book was selling really well on Amazon it would be on their best sellers list. It is not. We might see sales figures pick up when all three books are out. Time will tell. But I have the sinking suspicion 5e2024 will not outsell 5e2014 or come even close.
wotc have mentioned that it sells faster than Tasha they sold 3000 copies at gencon. a lot of game stores have restocked it for more than 2 times. guys, be serious. don't trust the roll for combat guy's analysis.
bookscan data doesn't include things like amazon, preordera or digital orders via dndbeyond.
wotc have mentioned that it sells faster than Tasha they sold 3000 copies at gencon. a lot of game stores have restocked it for more than 2 times. guys, be serious. don't trust the roll for combat guy's analysis.
bookscan data doesn't include things like amazon, preordera or digital orders via dndbeyond.
Correct me if I'm wrong but it does include physical sales from Amazon, just not digital such as Kindle. However you are correct it doesn't include digital sales from other sources so there's probably a lot of sales being missed off between DDB and various VTTs where it's been purchased purely for use creating characters.
As Weird said though there's several things that helped boost the 2014 books that no longer apply. Stranger Things is wrapping up, Critical Role's numbers are leveling out and they might be switching systems and the most obvious of all half the world isn't stuck at home looking for an excuse to meet up with friends online. It's why the idea of endless growth in sales from any hobby company is stupid when they're using sales from a once in a lifetime event as their bench mark
I can't access BookScan for myself. However, they sold out at GenCon having taken 3,000 copies. BookScan is meant to be fairly comprehensive and covers most hard book sales in the US. So, how is it that Australia is massively outselling the US, then? Bookstores are complaining that 10,000 is not enough and having to proactively manage consumer expectations because they're getting only a tenth of what they need, while the US, with a market easily 15 to 20 times the size, has only made 4,000 sales?
The number itself looks dodgy - I can easily accept that the new PHB isn't doing so well, but those numbers don't pass the sniff test - even without the fact that they were going at least reasonably well previously.
I'm unwilling to pay for a subscription just to delve into those numbers, but something is really fishy. It could be a whole number of things, but it's really not adding up. As I said, I'm willing to accept that it's not doing fantastic or underperforming...but that number is like finding an XBox on sale for pocket change - there has to be something wrong with it. Especially when there are conflicting reports that it's setting records and selling 3x faster than the 2014PHB.
So I'm reluctant to believe it. I don't know how it's doing and I'm not really forming any opinions yet, but that data point looks very fishy.
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Maybe pertains to how many Player’s Handbooks have actually been delivered?!
I’m still waiting on my pre-ordered copy. Here in NZ, we’ve been told by our local game store that copies are not arriving in our country for another three weeks!
WotC should hang their heads in shame - truly dismal delivery service.
Can't argue with the delivery thing. They don't have a great track record on that.
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So, how is it that Australia is massively outselling the US, then?
Well - there is a kinda global book scare going on, with outraged teenagers complaining about having to consume text in the form of letters on paper, and crying for full voice-over.
Whether this affects rulebooks (it's definitely a kinda-sorta real thing in computer games), I can't say. But if so, then I'd assume it was worst in the US.
Could that affect numbers? Maybe not to the extent of Australia outselling the US, but ... I mean, part of an explanation, maybe?
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Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
wotc have mentioned that it sells faster than Tasha they sold 3000 copies at gencon. a lot of game stores have restocked it for more than 2 times. guys, be serious. don't trust the roll for combat guy's analysis.
bookscan data doesn't include things like amazon, preordera or digital orders via dndbeyond.
BookScan DOES include Amazon.
You are right it does not include direct purchases from Beyond. But I don't know where you got the idea it "doesn't" include Amazon.
The figure is obviously too low. That for Tasha's would be as well. The point is that these figures come from the same source and if Tasha's on release achieved vastly more print book sales than did the 2024 PHB on its that is not looking good.
I can't access BookScan for myself. However, they sold out at GenCon having taken 3,000 copies. BookScan is meant to be fairly comprehensive and covers most hard book sales in the US. So, how is it that Australia is massively outselling the US, then? Bookstores are complaining that 10,000 is not enough and having to proactively manage consumer expectations because they're getting only a tenth of what they need, while the US, with a market easily 15 to 20 times the size, has only made 4,000 sales?
The number itself looks dodgy - I can easily accept that the new PHB isn't doing so well, but those numbers don't pass the sniff test - even without the fact that they were going at least reasonably well previously.
I'm unwilling to pay for a subscription just to delve into those numbers, but something is really fishy. It could be a whole number of things, but it's really not adding up. As I said, I'm willing to accept that it's not doing fantastic or underperforming...but that number is like finding an XBox on sale for pocket change - there has to be something wrong with it. Especially when there are conflicting reports that it's setting records and selling 3x faster than the 2014PHB.
So I'm reluctant to believe it. I don't know how it's doing and I'm not really forming any opinions yet, but that data point looks very fishy.
Why is it so implausible?
It's not as if countless people here have said they are not updating either any time soon or ever.
Many are satisfied with the books they have. And the mixed messaging in all the marketing about how the 2024 books are not a new edition has led many to wonder why should they then bother—and this isn't even to mention many's frustrations with the company these past twenty months or so.
Like I said. I play with four different groups of players and among those I play with I know one person who has bought the 2024 PHB. More of them have stated explicitly they have no interest in it.
Many have hacked the game to a point they have found the right game for them and their tables. Buying the 2024 books for them would be starting at the beginning of an upwards to ten-year process to get what they wanted out of the game.
I think Wizards misjudged this anniversary. I think instead of just revising the current rules and releasing what even many here would say "is the same edition" they should have released a white box reissue of the original from '74 and done so at an affordable price.
Bookscan only covers around 10 territories outside the US. In Europe, for instance, they only operate in the UK, Spain, Italy and Ireland, so don't include sales in most of Europe. And let's not forget the shift in sales during the past decade to digital, which are also not included. The figures are only accurate in terms of what they are recording, but not in terms of overall sales.
Bookscan only covers around 10 territories outside the US. In Europe, for instance, they only operate in the UK, Spain, Italy and Ireland, so don't include sales in most of Europe. And let's not forget the shift in sales during the past decade to digital, which are also not included. The figures are only accurate in terms of what they are recording, but not in terms of overall sales.
Again, the number is obviously too low. The point is the very same source reporting numbers for two different books is a good indication of their comparative performance.
How do you not understand that?
It is the most trusted data provider in the industry. Making this about how "unreliable" they are is a failure to cope with what could be a sign of underperformance.
So, how is it that Australia is massively outselling the US, then?
Well - there is a kinda global book scare going on, with outraged teenagers complaining about having to consume text in the form of letters on paper, and crying for full voice-over.
Whether this affects rulebooks (it's definitely a kinda-sorta real thing in computer games), I can't say. But if so, then I'd assume it was worst in the US.
Could that affect numbers? Maybe not to the extent of Australia outselling the US, but ... I mean, part of an explanation, maybe?
Maybe. I don't really get that...maybe it's an American thing, or maybe it's a youth thing. At any rate, I can see why physicals may have gone down, but the sheer scale of the discrepancy is blaring. It sounds more like it's incomplete data. Even if that were just first day sales, I'd have been surprised and suspecting something was up.
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If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Among other things, WotC are no longer distributing through any of the major book distributors, but direct through Hasbro, so pure bookstores are probably no longer carrying it, which is gonna affect the bookscan data. They also have a brand-new distribution channel, and also the alt-art covers and early access to game stores thing, which I believe postdates Tasha's.
The comparison to Tasha's isn't useful, even without questions about on-sale dates, reporting periods, whether or not Amazon reports, etc.
I know Wizards are a bit guarded when it comes to sales numbers. But apparently BookScan is showing the new PHB has sold less than 4,000 copies. Some might say these figures aren't the most accurate of estimations of all sold copies. And they would be right. But the very same industry data provider says Tasha's sold around 130,000 copies on release. I predicted earlier the new books were not going to see the love the game has seen over the past decade. 5th's popularity has been unprecedented. But many seem happy with it or happy with how they have hacked it for their tables. Have no desire to upgrade. This might change. But I seriously doubt it.
One thing to consider is that Tasha's was released to a full system whereas the 5.5 PHB is just the first of three core books.
So part of the lower sales might be from people that want to wait until the 5.5 core 3 (PHB, DMG, and MM) are out before getting them together.
Not sure how much that will affect things, but it is one possibility for lower numbers.
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I think adoption of new rules for a game you already have rules for is a fairly slow crawl - in no way comparable to say box office sales for new hyped up movie. Propably in a year or two, pretty much everyone is playing 2024. Just as the pattern has always been for new editions (as far as I know - I can't absolutely swear that there's never been a rush to pick up a new rulebook, it just doesn't feel that way).
Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
I'm comparing it to STA though (whose 2e is fairly comparable to 2024e in terms of circumstances and being compatible with existing rules etc), and those numbers seem awfully low, especially given that D&D is far more widely known etc. it also doesn't really jive with the fact that they had printing problems. We had a copy of a letter from a bookstore saying less than 10,000 had been sent to Australia (or an area of Australia - it wasn't clear which it was referencing) and so there was going to be a major shortage. None of that jives with the estimate that only 4,000 copies have been sold.
I strongly suspect that estimate is very wrong, to the point that it can't even be used as indicative alongside the Tasha's numbers.
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
You might be right that many are waiting until all three books are out or that it may just take some time. (But if either of these explanations have the ring of truth to them it makes even less sense for this site to seek to impose the new ruleset on people who would rather wait.)
And 4,000 copies of a PHB but 130,000 of a needless supplement?
It's not the first time we have seen a staggered release of those core three books.
And 4,000 copies is dismally low.
I currently play in four different groups. One person has bought the new PHB. Some have stated they are not interested because they are more than satisfied with the books they have. Particularly given that those who DM 5th. among them have heavily modified the game anyway.
Some of the catalysts for 5th's unprecedented popularity are now in decline. The game will dominate the hobby like it always has. But I would wager a dragon's hoard the 2024 core books do not sell as well as those from 2014.
BookScan is the most trusted data provider in the publishing industry as far as book sales go accounting for about eighty-five percent of all sales.
More than 4,000 copies have obviously been sold. But that figure compared to that 130,000 for a needless supplement from the same source? That does not look good. At all. If the book was selling really well on Amazon it would be on their best sellers list. It is not. We might see sales figures pick up when all three books are out. Time will tell. But I have the sinking suspicion 5e2024 will not outsell 5e2014 or come even close.
wotc have mentioned that it sells faster than Tasha they sold 3000 copies at gencon. a lot of game stores have restocked it for more than 2 times. guys, be serious. don't trust the roll for combat guy's analysis.
bookscan data doesn't include things like amazon, preordera or digital orders via dndbeyond.
Correct me if I'm wrong but it does include physical sales from Amazon, just not digital such as Kindle. However you are correct it doesn't include digital sales from other sources so there's probably a lot of sales being missed off between DDB and various VTTs where it's been purchased purely for use creating characters.
As Weird said though there's several things that helped boost the 2014 books that no longer apply. Stranger Things is wrapping up, Critical Role's numbers are leveling out and they might be switching systems and the most obvious of all half the world isn't stuck at home looking for an excuse to meet up with friends online. It's why the idea of endless growth in sales from any hobby company is stupid when they're using sales from a once in a lifetime event as their bench mark
I can't access BookScan for myself. However, they sold out at GenCon having taken 3,000 copies. BookScan is meant to be fairly comprehensive and covers most hard book sales in the US. So, how is it that Australia is massively outselling the US, then? Bookstores are complaining that 10,000 is not enough and having to proactively manage consumer expectations because they're getting only a tenth of what they need, while the US, with a market easily 15 to 20 times the size, has only made 4,000 sales?
The number itself looks dodgy - I can easily accept that the new PHB isn't doing so well, but those numbers don't pass the sniff test - even without the fact that they were going at least reasonably well previously.
I'm unwilling to pay for a subscription just to delve into those numbers, but something is really fishy. It could be a whole number of things, but it's really not adding up. As I said, I'm willing to accept that it's not doing fantastic or underperforming...but that number is like finding an XBox on sale for pocket change - there has to be something wrong with it. Especially when there are conflicting reports that it's setting records and selling 3x faster than the 2014PHB.
So I'm reluctant to believe it. I don't know how it's doing and I'm not really forming any opinions yet, but that data point looks very fishy.
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
Maybe pertains to how many Player’s Handbooks have actually been delivered?!
I’m still waiting on my pre-ordered copy. Here in NZ, we’ve been told by our local game store that copies are not arriving in our country for another three weeks!
WotC should hang their heads in shame - truly dismal delivery service.
Can't argue with the delivery thing. They don't have a great track record on that.
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
Well - there is a kinda global book scare going on, with outraged teenagers complaining about having to consume text in the form of letters on paper, and crying for full voice-over.
Whether this affects rulebooks (it's definitely a kinda-sorta real thing in computer games), I can't say. But if so, then I'd assume it was worst in the US.
Could that affect numbers? Maybe not to the extent of Australia outselling the US, but ... I mean, part of an explanation, maybe?
Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
BookScan DOES include Amazon.
You are right it does not include direct purchases from Beyond. But I don't know where you got the idea it "doesn't" include Amazon.
The figure is obviously too low. That for Tasha's would be as well. The point is that these figures come from the same source and if Tasha's on release achieved vastly more print book sales than did the 2024 PHB on its that is not looking good.
Why is it so implausible?
It's not as if countless people here have said they are not updating either any time soon or ever.
Many are satisfied with the books they have. And the mixed messaging in all the marketing about how the 2024 books are not a new edition has led many to wonder why should they then bother—and this isn't even to mention many's frustrations with the company these past twenty months or so.
Like I said. I play with four different groups of players and among those I play with I know one person who has bought the 2024 PHB. More of them have stated explicitly they have no interest in it.
Many have hacked the game to a point they have found the right game for them and their tables. Buying the 2024 books for them would be starting at the beginning of an upwards to ten-year process to get what they wanted out of the game.
I think Wizards misjudged this anniversary. I think instead of just revising the current rules and releasing what even many here would say "is the same edition" they should have released a white box reissue of the original from '74 and done so at an affordable price.
Bookscan only covers around 10 territories outside the US. In Europe, for instance, they only operate in the UK, Spain, Italy and Ireland, so don't include sales in most of Europe. And let's not forget the shift in sales during the past decade to digital, which are also not included. The figures are only accurate in terms of what they are recording, but not in terms of overall sales.
Again, the number is obviously too low. The point is the very same source reporting numbers for two different books is a good indication of their comparative performance.
How do you not understand that?
It is the most trusted data provider in the industry. Making this about how "unreliable" they are is a failure to cope with what could be a sign of underperformance.
Maybe. I don't really get that...maybe it's an American thing, or maybe it's a youth thing. At any rate, I can see why physicals may have gone down, but the sheer scale of the discrepancy is blaring. It sounds more like it's incomplete data. Even if that were just first day sales, I'd have been surprised and suspecting something was up.
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
LOL
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Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
...isn't the VTT supposed to be out this year?
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Among other things, WotC are no longer distributing through any of the major book distributors, but direct through Hasbro, so pure bookstores are probably no longer carrying it, which is gonna affect the bookscan data. They also have a brand-new distribution channel, and also the alt-art covers and early access to game stores thing, which I believe postdates Tasha's.
The comparison to Tasha's isn't useful, even without questions about on-sale dates, reporting periods, whether or not Amazon reports, etc.