I think it's indicative of WotC's marketing push for online digital in preparation for project Sigil, as well as their physical bundle sales which wouldn't be reported by BookScan. In this case the digital push wouldn't have significantly affected in their physical Tasha's sales back in 2020 when they had just newly acquired D&D Beyond, which explains the large discrepancy between the two numbers.
It would be interesting to see exactly how many 5.5e digital licences they sold on D&D Beyond vs actual physical copies.
Among other things, WotC are no longer distributing through any of the major book distributors, but direct through Hasbro, so pure bookstores are probably no longer carrying it, which is gonna affect the bookscan data. They also have a brand-new distribution channel, and also the alt-art covers and early access to game stores thing, which I believe postdates Tasha's.
The comparison to Tasha's isn't useful, even without questions about on-sale dates, reporting periods, whether or not Amazon reports, etc.
That's actually a very good point, do FLGS get included in BookScan? Possibly not. Also for the first time they've been pushing their own physical sales through DDB which I'd lay money isn't included in BookScan even for physical sales. Means there's a very real chance that the none of the people most motivated to buy the book are being included in the sales figures
As far as I am aware, BookScan tracks major retailers and some local bookstores. Gaming stores are likely not covered, since their primary business is not books generally. That also means it is not going to cover digital purchases, direct from Wizards purchases, or likely any online gaming retailers.
Wizards consistently has said that the overwhelming majority of their business comes directly from Local Game Stores. I expect, given the early access and special covers granted to LGS, the number of LGS sales was particularly high. I know the LGSes in my area have been struggling to keep stock of physical product.
Now, why could this be behind Tasha’s? Pretty easy to figure that out.
The new PHB has only been out for 13 days from the major retailers that BookScan tracks. Since BookScan relies on voluntary reporting, the data is often not uploaded immediately - from a quick Google search, it looks like Amazon and other major retailers usually take 30 days or more to upload their numbers. I expect the 4,000 figure is from some smaller entities or one single large entity - with the most significant players in town not having reported yet.
You are trying to compare a book that hasn’t been out long enough to have any significant data reported to a book that has been out for years. Not to mention a book that was more heavily pushed through channels BookScan does not track than Tasha’s was.
These numbers are completely worthless at this time and trying to make a narrative out of these early numbers is extremely silly.
Roll for Combat has an EXTREME grudge against WotC, he makes it his business, literally, to poke holes into anything and everything WotC related, possibly even just D&D related. The numbers don't add up. In Germany it is the number one bestseller in it's category on Amazon.de, ditto for Amazon.uk. Most people in the US would buy through Beyond and FLGSs, which BookScan 99% doesn't cover. So those numbers are not the real numbers, not by a long shot. WotC stated the book is the fastest selling book in D&D history. Now sure, fastest selling is corpo speak, it can mean any number of books, but they wouldn't be making claims like that to their investors without some plausible backing. Lie to your investors, lose your investors.
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DM for life by choice, biggest fan of D&D specifically.
from alphastream.org: "As we stated previously, BookScan tracks the sales of all books sold in the US to big box stores. It excludes direct sales, digital sales, gaming stores, and comic book stores. It includes Amazon, though Amazon in some years (especially during the pandemic) provided either no data or partial data out of worries that it disclosed too much about Amazon sales."
basically, for something like the phb, it's useless in terms of absolute numbers.
I think it's indicative of WotC's marketing push for online digital in preparation for project Sigil, as well as their physical bundle sales which wouldn't be reported by BookScan. In this case the digital push wouldn't have significantly affected in their physical Tasha's sales back in 2020 when they had just newly acquired D&D Beyond, which explains the large discrepancy between the two numbers.
It would be interesting to see exactly how many 5.5e digital licences they sold on D&D Beyond vs actual physical copies.
This is pure pedantry, but DDB hadn't even been purchased at that point. I was here for when it was announced, and I didn't come until middle of '21. It was purchased either late '21 or '22, but I can't remember when.
Of course, that just reinforces your point.
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If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
Roll for Combat has an EXTREME grudge against WotC, he makes it his business, literally, to poke holes into anything and everything WotC related, possibly even just D&D related. The numbers don't add up. In Germany it is the number one bestseller in it's category on Amazon.de, ditto for Amazon.uk. Most people in the US would buy through Beyond and FLGSs, which BookScan 99% doesn't cover. So those numbers are not the real numbers, not by a long shot. WotC stated the book is the fastest selling book in D&D history. Now sure, fastest selling is corpo speak, it can mean any number of books, but they wouldn't be making claims like that to their investors without some plausible backing. Lie to your investors, lose your investors.
I'm listening to the Wizards & Wordslingers podcast at the moment and they're discussing the Amazon charts. The US Amazon site for some reason doesn't have the new PHB listed as a separate product, you get the 2014 and 2024 PHBs on the same listing and click between them. This means that there's a pretty good chance the only reason it's not showing as a bestseller in the US charts same as the UK and Germany is it's not registering as a new release and isn't getting the same push by the Amazon algorithm
Roll for Combat has an EXTREME grudge against WotC,
I admit to never watching that YouTube channel, but the last time I saw anyone talking about WotC publishing info from them, it was just complete nonsense that showed zero understanding of how publishing works. (Whether the problem was the YouTuber, the poster, or both, I cannot say.)
Since YouTube is the ultimate authority these days, here's a segment of a video that discusses this. If it starts in the wrong place, it begins at 3:09.
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
TL;DW: BookScan covers major retailers, but WotC has done what could be described as its best to avoid sales through them, and instead pushes incentives for DDB, direct sales and LGS, none of which are covered by BookScan - and weren't the beneficiaries of WotC drive for such sales when Tasha's came out.
As I said, the 4,000 number is fishy, I'm not sure I buy that.this is the complete story, but it shows that it's a useless number for comparison.
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If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
Am I misremembering or did WotC break all contact with Penguin Random house about a year ago? So they essentially severed the ties with the distributer that would be sending copies to the types of stores that BookScan looks at
I think it's indicative of WotC's marketing push for online digital in preparation for project Sigil, as well as their physical bundle sales which wouldn't be reported by BookScan. In this case the digital push wouldn't have significantly affected in their physical Tasha's sales back in 2020 when they had just newly acquired D&D Beyond, which explains the large discrepancy between the two numbers.
It would be interesting to see exactly how many 5.5e digital licences they sold on D&D Beyond vs actual physical copies.
This is pure pedantry, but DDB hadn't even been purchased at that point. I was here for when it was announced, and I didn't come until middle of '21. It was purchased either late '21 or '22, but I can't remember when.
Of course, that just reinforces your point.
My bad! You're right I got the dates wrong.
Tasha's was published in November 2020, and WotC got D&D Beyond in May 2022.
I think it's indicative of WotC's marketing push for online digital in preparation for project Sigil, as well as their physical bundle sales which wouldn't be reported by BookScan. In this case the digital push wouldn't have significantly affected in their physical Tasha's sales back in 2020 when they had just newly acquired D&D Beyond, which explains the large discrepancy between the two numbers.
It would be interesting to see exactly how many 5.5e digital licences they sold on D&D Beyond vs actual physical copies.
Digital sales is the only thing that wotc cares about. A subscription model (SAAS) built around the VTT and this site is the end game.
[Citation Needed]
[REDACTED]
To post the plainly obvious facts, Wizards went out of their way to promote the physical version of the books, giving extra incentives for players to purchase physically at their game store (special covers, early access). The new book is also the first PHB in fifty years which explicitly takes steps to help players build their character with pen and paper character sheets. Every single person at Wizards in positions of power has talked about how much they love their physical products and intend to keep making them.
The facts do not support the position this user has been trying to push.
They’re clearly not ignoring a growing market segment, but they just as clearly are not neglecting the current segment that is somewhere between a cash cow and a star. There is objectively a strong demand for physical units, among both tabletop and online players. Despite arch assertions to the contrary, businesses are not in the habit of leaving massive swathes of profit spread out right before them untapped.
The Bookscan numbers are for the week September 15th to 21st right? But correct me if I am wrong, didn’t US get early LGS releases from September 3rd? Surely a better look at the numbers would be the 2nd to the 21st?
The big marketing push for 5.5 is online/digital vs physical sales for Tasha's. So yeah Hasbro didn't market 5.5 for physical sales, and physical sales are low. (Insert shocked Pikachu pic)
The big marketing push for 5.5 is online/digital vs physical sales for Tasha's. So yeah Hasbro didn't market 5.5 for physical sales, and physical sales are low. (Insert shocked Pikachu pic)
I dunno about not pushing physical, given the alt-art covers are physical LGS only. Between that and the digital/physical bundle offer, I’d say physical was hardly an afterthought.
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I think it's indicative of WotC's marketing push for online digital in preparation for project Sigil, as well as their physical bundle sales which wouldn't be reported by BookScan. In this case the digital push wouldn't have significantly affected in their physical Tasha's sales back in 2020 when they had just newly acquired D&D Beyond, which explains the large discrepancy between the two numbers.
It would be interesting to see exactly how many 5.5e digital licences they sold on D&D Beyond vs actual physical copies.
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[Phandelver],[Frozen Sick],[Acquisitions Inc.],[Vecna Dossier],[Radiant Citadel], [Spelljammer],[Dragonlance], [Prisoner 13],[Minecraft],[Star Forge], [Baldur’s Gate], [Lightning Keep], [Stormwreck Isle], [Pinebrook], [Caverns of Tsojcanth], [The Lost Horn], [Elemental Evil].Free Dice: [Frostmaiden],
[Flourishing], [Sanguine],[Themberchaud], [Baldur's Gate 3], [Lego].That's actually a very good point, do FLGS get included in BookScan? Possibly not. Also for the first time they've been pushing their own physical sales through DDB which I'd lay money isn't included in BookScan even for physical sales. Means there's a very real chance that the none of the people most motivated to buy the book are being included in the sales figures
As far as I am aware, BookScan tracks major retailers and some local bookstores. Gaming stores are likely not covered, since their primary business is not books generally. That also means it is not going to cover digital purchases, direct from Wizards purchases, or likely any online gaming retailers.
Wizards consistently has said that the overwhelming majority of their business comes directly from Local Game Stores. I expect, given the early access and special covers granted to LGS, the number of LGS sales was particularly high. I know the LGSes in my area have been struggling to keep stock of physical product.
Now, why could this be behind Tasha’s? Pretty easy to figure that out.
The new PHB has only been out for 13 days from the major retailers that BookScan tracks. Since BookScan relies on voluntary reporting, the data is often not uploaded immediately - from a quick Google search, it looks like Amazon and other major retailers usually take 30 days or more to upload their numbers. I expect the 4,000 figure is from some smaller entities or one single large entity - with the most significant players in town not having reported yet.
You are trying to compare a book that hasn’t been out long enough to have any significant data reported to a book that has been out for years. Not to mention a book that was more heavily pushed through channels BookScan does not track than Tasha’s was.
These numbers are completely worthless at this time and trying to make a narrative out of these early numbers is extremely silly.
Roll for Combat has an EXTREME grudge against WotC, he makes it his business, literally, to poke holes into anything and everything WotC related, possibly even just D&D related. The numbers don't add up. In Germany it is the number one bestseller in it's category on Amazon.de, ditto for Amazon.uk. Most people in the US would buy through Beyond and FLGSs, which BookScan 99% doesn't cover. So those numbers are not the real numbers, not by a long shot. WotC stated the book is the fastest selling book in D&D history. Now sure, fastest selling is corpo speak, it can mean any number of books, but they wouldn't be making claims like that to their investors without some plausible backing. Lie to your investors, lose your investors.
DM for life by choice, biggest fan of D&D specifically.
from alphastream.org: "As we stated previously, BookScan tracks the sales of all books sold in the US to big box stores. It excludes direct sales, digital sales, gaming stores, and comic book stores. It includes Amazon, though Amazon in some years (especially during the pandemic) provided either no data or partial data out of worries that it disclosed too much about Amazon sales."
basically, for something like the phb, it's useless in terms of absolute numbers.
This is pure pedantry, but DDB hadn't even been purchased at that point. I was here for when it was announced, and I didn't come until middle of '21. It was purchased either late '21 or '22, but I can't remember when.
Of course, that just reinforces your point.
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
I'm listening to the Wizards & Wordslingers podcast at the moment and they're discussing the Amazon charts. The US Amazon site for some reason doesn't have the new PHB listed as a separate product, you get the 2014 and 2024 PHBs on the same listing and click between them. This means that there's a pretty good chance the only reason it's not showing as a bestseller in the US charts same as the UK and Germany is it's not registering as a new release and isn't getting the same push by the Amazon algorithm
I admit to never watching that YouTube channel, but the last time I saw anyone talking about WotC publishing info from them, it was just complete nonsense that showed zero understanding of how publishing works. (Whether the problem was the YouTuber, the poster, or both, I cannot say.)
Since YouTube is the ultimate authority these days, here's a segment of a video that discusses this. If it starts in the wrong place, it begins at 3:09.
https://youtu.be/kYeTUgIlMWM?si=iqxv-wdmjttx-vo4
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
TL;DW: BookScan covers major retailers, but WotC has done what could be described as its best to avoid sales through them, and instead pushes incentives for DDB, direct sales and LGS, none of which are covered by BookScan - and weren't the beneficiaries of WotC drive for such sales when Tasha's came out.
As I said, the 4,000 number is fishy, I'm not sure I buy that.this is the complete story, but it shows that it's a useless number for comparison.
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
Am I misremembering or did WotC break all contact with Penguin Random house about a year ago? So they essentially severed the ties with the distributer that would be sending copies to the types of stores that BookScan looks at
You are not. They are their own publisher now.
DM for life by choice, biggest fan of D&D specifically.
My bad! You're right I got the dates wrong.
Tasha's was published in November 2020, and WotC got D&D Beyond in May 2022.
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[Flourishing], [Sanguine],[Themberchaud], [Baldur's Gate 3], [Lego].Whatever the internet is saying, it has sold out at all the physical stores I go to (including my Barnes & Noble). I think it is doing okay.
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[Citation Needed]
[REDACTED]
To post the plainly obvious facts, Wizards went out of their way to promote the physical version of the books, giving extra incentives for players to purchase physically at their game store (special covers, early access). The new book is also the first PHB in fifty years which explicitly takes steps to help players build their character with pen and paper character sheets. Every single person at Wizards in positions of power has talked about how much they love their physical products and intend to keep making them.
The facts do not support the position this user has been trying to push.
Here’s another take on it from a guy that owns a hobby store. He breaks down how the number may be both accurate and nonsensical.
https://icv2.com/articles/columns/view/57905/rolling-initiative-3-773-copies-sold
They’re clearly not ignoring a growing market segment, but they just as clearly are not neglecting the current segment that is somewhere between a cash cow and a star. There is objectively a strong demand for physical units, among both tabletop and online players. Despite arch assertions to the contrary, businesses are not in the habit of leaving massive swathes of profit spread out right before them untapped.
The Bookscan numbers are for the week September 15th to 21st right? But correct me if I am wrong, didn’t US get early LGS releases from September 3rd? Surely a better look at the numbers would be the 2nd to the 21st?
The big marketing push for 5.5 is online/digital vs physical sales for Tasha's. So yeah Hasbro didn't market 5.5 for physical sales, and physical sales are low. (Insert shocked Pikachu pic)
I dunno about not pushing physical, given the alt-art covers are physical LGS only. Between that and the digital/physical bundle offer, I’d say physical was hardly an afterthought.