Having now played an Illrigger for a while, I have a few thoughts on them
One, I still hate the class name and the subclass names. Doesn't really matter, just a pet peeve.
Two, playing an Illrigger is complex. You have to know when to spend your powers for maximum effect and how to combine them and keep track of them. I took blank Spell Cards and made Feature and Boon cards to help me keep it all straight. And yet I still look back sometimes and go "I could have done this" because I neglected or forgot about a Feature or Boon that would have made a difference. Some of the abilities like "You Die At My Command" are major saving graces for the party.
Three, I think the class is underpowered and the subclasses unbalanced. My 11th Level Painkiller can deal out some massive damage once or twice (and I do mean massive), but after that he is basically just a general fighter, plus doing that level of damage means he has spent his power to help the party. A Paladin of equal level will kick him around pretty handily and then still lay hands and heal. An Architect of Ruin stands a better chance as he has all the fighting and infernal powers of the Painkiller plus spell abilities. I think the non-spell casting subclasses should get additional Seals to balance the power.
Four, some think the class is a bit limited as each subclass answers to a specific ArchDeveil. But with 5 subclasses defined and dozens of ArchDevils out there, there is a lot of room for homebrewing. You have to think outside the box as most people only seems to think about the 9 Archdevils who rule Baator.
Five, Roleplaying is your DM/Group is heavily into the roleplay side is fun! Especially in a "good" party. Course a warlock with a non-good patron would be much the same. Haven't done a Hellspeaker, Sanguine Knight or Shadowmaster yet, but they could be complex and fun too.
I haven't gotten to play the class yet. I don't know if I like the concept or the mechanics more.
I'm interested in the painbringer. My issue with it, is that it's a heavy armor subclass, and you probaly pick it because that is part of what you like. But to not have disadvantage, you need 15 strenght. But you are also a melee class, so you want a decent constitution. So the DC for you abilites might be lacking. Maybe the painbringer should have gotten the extra damage with attacks earlier. I think the path of the Giant barbarian gets it at level 6. They do need to rage though
Maybe the class should have gotten fire resistance, it seems fitting.
I recall reading that the class isn't that powerfull compared to the 2024 classes. Though maybe that depends on the subclass
Any of those would have been better. Illrigger makes me think of an anti-Artificer rather than an anti-Paladin or Cleric.
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If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
I am shocked and, frankly, a little saddened to not see any real discussion on the balancing. These guys are broken for PCs, there's no two ways about it. Anyone that tries to justify fairness does not understand the base balancing of core classes and their subclasses, and the number of active and passive features these classes get. Illriggers simply get more to do with their Combat Mastery, Interdiction, and especially their infinite Invokes. They are consistently doing more than other classes can do for less resources and just better than the others can. Take Hellspeaker as an example. At 3rd level with Turncoat you can make 2 enemies save to attack allies, every single turn. You don’t even need to spend a seal use, it’s literally just free. Normally at this level, you'd need Crown of Madness, and that's a spell slot, concentration, only one target, and your action every turn to keep going. See the difference? Not even Suggestion, also available at 3rd level for full-casters, can make you attack your allies, let alone two of them. It's inherently unbalanced to the level it’s at. Not to mention Honeyed Blades is the ability to mark someone PB times per short rest to give ADV on all attacks on them, plus auto-crits. Normally you'd need Reckless, which also gets ADV on you, or Vengeance paladin's Mark of Emnity to get ADV on only one enemy per short rest, and neither of those auto-crit. Plus they get Expertise in Deception or Persuasion on top of those, which is potent in itself, especially when most subclasses just give proficiency in a skill, not Expertise. The other subclasses are nuts too, with the Painkiller becoming a battlefield commander that allows for more attacks per turn from allies than anything else in the game plus reflect-damage like Hellish Rebuke except wait it’s free and stronger, and the Architect of Ruin getting two OP cantrips and being crazy with spells like getting to include its new over-tuned cantrips in Extra Attack or forcing vulnerability even if the target has immunity to that damage. Regardless of opinions on coolness of the power, or whatever gymnastic reaches people want to do to justify the power, it comes down to simple 'them vs others' fairness. Illriggers flat-out get more features than other classes get, and are objectively stronger at every single thing they do so far, by my review. Of course, high level full-casters will outpace them in damage and utility, but that's a given for any class, and is not a realistic metric for balancing. Besides, these guys almost keep up, which is no small task...
With respect to Honey-Sweet Blades and Turncoat, they're Invoke Hell options, which can only be done once per Short or Long Rest. Since your complaint emphasises that it can be done every turn, that's not true. Honey-Sweet Blades is a single attack, not PB times per rest for all attacks on target.
I haven't checked the others, but it could well be that they have similar restrictions which makes them less egregious than portrayed.
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
I am shocked and, frankly, a little saddened to not see any real discussion on the balancing. These guys are broken for PCs, there's no two ways about it. Anyone that tries to justify fairness does not understand the base balancing of core classes and their subclasses, and the number of active and passive features these classes get. Illriggers simply get more to do with their Combat Mastery, Interdiction, and especially their infinite Invokes. They are consistently doing more than other classes can do for less resources and just better than the others can. Take Hellspeaker as an example. At 3rd level with Turncoat you can make 2 enemies save to attack allies, every single turn. You don’t even need to spend a seal use, it’s literally just free. Normally at this level, you'd need Crown of Madness, and that's a spell slot, concentration, only one target, and your action every turn to keep going. See the difference? Not even Suggestion, also available at 3rd level for full-casters, can make you attack your allies, let alone two of them. It's inherently unbalanced to the level it’s at. Not to mention Honeyed Blades is the ability to mark someone PB times per short rest to give ADV on all attacks on them, plus auto-crits. Normally you'd need Reckless, which also gets ADV on you, or Vengeance paladin's Mark of Emnity to get ADV on only one enemy per short rest, and neither of those auto-crit. Plus they get Expertise in Deception or Persuasion on top of those, which is potent in itself, especially when most subclasses just give proficiency in a skill, not Expertise. The other subclasses are nuts too, with the Painkiller becoming a battlefield commander that allows for more attacks per turn from allies than anything else in the game plus reflect-damage like Hellish Rebuke except wait it’s free and stronger, and the Architect of Ruin getting two OP cantrips and being crazy with spells like getting to include its new over-tuned cantrips in Extra Attack or forcing vulnerability even if the target has immunity to that damage. Regardless of opinions on coolness of the power, or whatever gymnastic reaches people want to do to justify the power, it comes down to simple 'them vs others' fairness. Illriggers flat-out get more features than other classes get, and are objectively stronger at every single thing they do so far, by my review. Of course, high level full-casters will outpace them in damage and utility, but that's a given for any class, and is not a realistic metric for balancing. Besides, these guys almost keep up, which is no small task...
Unless you are reading from a different source than I am, I think you need to reread the class. You are making a number of false claims about their powers and abilities, at least according to the digital version of The Illrigger Revised and the DDB character creation tool.
With respect to Honey-Sweet Blades and Turncoat, they're Invoke Hell options, which can only be done once per Short or Long Rest. Since your complaint emphasises that it can be done every turn, that's not true. Honey-Sweet Blades is a single attack, not PB times per rest for all attacks on target.
I haven't checked the others, but it could well be that they have similar restrictions which makes them less egregious than portrayed.
I am shocked and, frankly, a little saddened to not see any real discussion on the balancing. These guys are broken for PCs, there's no two ways about it. Anyone that tries to justify fairness does not understand the base balancing of core classes and their subclasses, and the number of active and passive features these classes get. Illriggers simply get more to do with their Combat Mastery, Interdiction, and especially their infinite Invokes. They are consistently doing more than other classes can do for less resources and just better than the others can. Take Hellspeaker as an example. At 3rd level with Turncoat you can make 2 enemies save to attack allies, every single turn. You don’t even need to spend a seal use, it’s literally just free. Normally at this level, you'd need Crown of Madness, and that's a spell slot, concentration, only one target, and your action every turn to keep going. See the difference? Not even Suggestion, also available at 3rd level for full-casters, can make you attack your allies, let alone two of them. It's inherently unbalanced to the level it’s at. Not to mention Honeyed Blades is the ability to mark someone PB times per short rest to give ADV on all attacks on them, plus auto-crits. Normally you'd need Reckless, which also gets ADV on you, or Vengeance paladin's Mark of Emnity to get ADV on only one enemy per short rest, and neither of those auto-crit. Plus they get Expertise in Deception or Persuasion on top of those, which is potent in itself, especially when most subclasses just give proficiency in a skill, not Expertise. The other subclasses are nuts too, with the Painkiller becoming a battlefield commander that allows for more attacks per turn from allies than anything else in the game plus reflect-damage like Hellish Rebuke except wait it’s free and stronger, and the Architect of Ruin getting two OP cantrips and being crazy with spells like getting to include its new over-tuned cantrips in Extra Attack or forcing vulnerability even if the target has immunity to that damage. Regardless of opinions on coolness of the power, or whatever gymnastic reaches people want to do to justify the power, it comes down to simple 'them vs others' fairness. Illriggers flat-out get more features than other classes get, and are objectively stronger at every single thing they do so far, by my review. Of course, high level full-casters will outpace them in damage and utility, but that's a given for any class, and is not a realistic metric for balancing. Besides, these guys almost keep up, which is no small task...
Unless you are reading from a different source than I am, I think you need to reread the class. You are making a number of false claims about their powers and abilities, at least according to the digital version of The Illrigger Revised and the DDB character creation tool.
Thanks for your replies. I missed that limitation in their non-standard verbiage format, something I immediately recognized as annoying, but clearly had larger implications, such as this conversation now. I'll have to reconsider my review of the class with that in mind...It still feels strong with the sheer number of features and options over other classes, but playtesting will be required to really see how they work in action.
Yeah, the limitations are often found in the general Illrigger section text while the actual power/function is found in the subclass text. Makes it easy to read the subclass in isolation and consider it overpowered.
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My DM did not give me Weapon Mastery since the Illrigger has Combat Mastery.
I don't think the name will ever not bother me.
Illdoer class next mayhaps.
Having now played an Illrigger for a while, I have a few thoughts on them
One, I still hate the class name and the subclass names. Doesn't really matter, just a pet peeve.
Two, playing an Illrigger is complex. You have to know when to spend your powers for maximum effect and how to combine them and keep track of them. I took blank Spell Cards and made Feature and Boon cards to help me keep it all straight. And yet I still look back sometimes and go "I could have done this" because I neglected or forgot about a Feature or Boon that would have made a difference. Some of the abilities like "You Die At My Command" are major saving graces for the party.
Three, I think the class is underpowered and the subclasses unbalanced. My 11th Level Painkiller can deal out some massive damage once or twice (and I do mean massive), but after that he is basically just a general fighter, plus doing that level of damage means he has spent his power to help the party. A Paladin of equal level will kick him around pretty handily and then still lay hands and heal. An Architect of Ruin stands a better chance as he has all the fighting and infernal powers of the Painkiller plus spell abilities. I think the non-spell casting subclasses should get additional Seals to balance the power.
Four, some think the class is a bit limited as each subclass answers to a specific ArchDeveil. But with 5 subclasses defined and dozens of ArchDevils out there, there is a lot of room for homebrewing. You have to think outside the box as most people only seems to think about the 9 Archdevils who rule Baator.
Five, Roleplaying is your DM/Group is heavily into the roleplay side is fun! Especially in a "good" party. Course a warlock with a non-good patron would be much the same. Haven't done a Hellspeaker, Sanguine Knight or Shadowmaster yet, but they could be complex and fun too.
Personally I’d probably give weapon mastery to painkillers and sanguine knights instead of the class as a whole.
I haven't gotten to play the class yet. I don't know if I like the concept or the mechanics more.
I'm interested in the painbringer. My issue with it, is that it's a heavy armor subclass, and you probaly pick it because that is part of what you like. But to not have disadvantage, you need 15 strenght. But you are also a melee class, so you want a decent constitution. So the DC for you abilites might be lacking.
Maybe the painbringer should have gotten the extra damage with attacks earlier. I think the path of the Giant barbarian gets it at level 6. They do need to rage though
Maybe the class should have gotten fire resistance, it seems fitting.
I recall reading that the class isn't that powerfull compared to the 2024 classes. Though maybe that depends on the subclass
Hellblade?
Nether Knight?
Fiendstriker?
Any of those would have been better. Illrigger makes me think of an anti-Artificer rather than an anti-Paladin or Cleric.
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
"Illrigger" makes me think of a seasick sailor.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
I am shocked and, frankly, a little saddened to not see any real discussion on the balancing. These guys are broken for PCs, there's no two ways about it. Anyone that tries to justify fairness does not understand the base balancing of core classes and their subclasses, and the number of active and passive features these classes get. Illriggers simply get more to do with their Combat Mastery, Interdiction, and especially their infinite Invokes. They are consistently doing more than other classes can do for less resources and just better than the others can. Take Hellspeaker as an example. At 3rd level with Turncoat you can make 2 enemies save to attack allies, every single turn. You don’t even need to spend a seal use, it’s literally just free. Normally at this level, you'd need Crown of Madness, and that's a spell slot, concentration, only one target, and your action every turn to keep going. See the difference? Not even Suggestion, also available at 3rd level for full-casters, can make you attack your allies, let alone two of them. It's inherently unbalanced to the level it’s at. Not to mention Honeyed Blades is the ability to mark someone PB times per short rest to give ADV on all attacks on them, plus auto-crits. Normally you'd need Reckless, which also gets ADV on you, or Vengeance paladin's Mark of Emnity to get ADV on only one enemy per short rest, and neither of those auto-crit. Plus they get Expertise in Deception or Persuasion on top of those, which is potent in itself, especially when most subclasses just give proficiency in a skill, not Expertise. The other subclasses are nuts too, with the Painkiller becoming a battlefield commander that allows for more attacks per turn from allies than anything else in the game plus reflect-damage like Hellish Rebuke except wait it’s free and stronger, and the Architect of Ruin getting two OP cantrips and being crazy with spells like getting to include its new over-tuned cantrips in Extra Attack or forcing vulnerability even if the target has immunity to that damage. Regardless of opinions on coolness of the power, or whatever gymnastic reaches people want to do to justify the power, it comes down to simple 'them vs others' fairness. Illriggers flat-out get more features than other classes get, and are objectively stronger at every single thing they do so far, by my review. Of course, high level full-casters will outpace them in damage and utility, but that's a given for any class, and is not a realistic metric for balancing. Besides, these guys almost keep up, which is no small task...
With respect to Honey-Sweet Blades and Turncoat, they're Invoke Hell options, which can only be done once per Short or Long Rest. Since your complaint emphasises that it can be done every turn, that's not true. Honey-Sweet Blades is a single attack, not PB times per rest for all attacks on target.
I haven't checked the others, but it could well be that they have similar restrictions which makes them less egregious than portrayed.
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
Unless you are reading from a different source than I am, I think you need to reread the class. You are making a number of false claims about their powers and abilities, at least according to the digital version of The Illrigger Revised and the DDB character creation tool.
Thanks for your replies. I missed that limitation in their non-standard verbiage format, something I immediately recognized as annoying, but clearly had larger implications, such as this conversation now. I'll have to reconsider my review of the class with that in mind...It still feels strong with the sheer number of features and options over other classes, but playtesting will be required to really see how they work in action.
Yeah, the limitations are often found in the general Illrigger section text while the actual power/function is found in the subclass text. Makes it easy to read the subclass in isolation and consider it overpowered.