I was reading the post explaining the new custom class, Illrigger. It calls them Hell Knights. I'm not sure about the 2024 rules, but I know the 2014 rules say that Oath of Conquest Paladins are often considered Hell Knights. Are they both Hell Knights? Did the 2024 paladin drop that part and this is their way of bringing it back or expanding on it? For anyone who has tried playing the class or DMing a campaign with an Illrigger, what were your thoughts? Did it feel like a completely seperate class that was smooth enough mechanically and lorewise to stand on its own? Does D&D beyond even support the class? I'd like to hear someone's firsthand perspective.
I'd just like to articulate that the Illrigger was designed by MCDM, an external studio that builds content for D&D but is not part of Wizards of the Coast.
That said, who doesn't want to be a DEX Paladin assassin devoutly bound and with a direct line to an archdevil? While some people might consider a few subclass abilities to be overpowered, like reaching 3rd level and just choosing to take a critical on any successful hit once per short rest, what's the point of working for the forces of evil without perks?
I think with a good DM and the right campaign it looks like fun (which can be said about most things).
Mechanically, I think illrigger is kind of a mess. Too many fiddly bits (which is a common problem with third-party classes), and it tries to do too much
Lore-wise, I don't really understand why it even exists. As you said, there's already a class for knightly orders, and it's called the paladin
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Active characters:
Green Hill Sunrise, jaded tabaxi mercenary trapped in the Dark Domains (Battle Master fighter) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Conquest Paladins and Oathbreakers don't always hammer in the proverbial nail, tho.
Not every DM abides by "flavor is free", either. So this helps with that at the cost of bringing in infernal matters to the game, which opens up so many cans of worms.
It exists to fill the hole of the proverbial antipaladin from past editions some people feel is missing from 5e. Not everyone feels one way, another, or at all, and that's fine.
Kinda wish this had options related to Gehenna, The Abyss, Hades, The Shadowfell and other evil planes, tho, NGL.
Been playing an Illrigger in a local campaign for a couple of levels now. Its not as hard to integrate as some people think, especially depending on the subclass you choose. The Illrigger does seem a bit overpowered early on, but other classes seem to catch up quickly as they level up.
If the campaign is a straightforward "find the bad guy and kill him", its simple. "My lord has tasked me to find and stop this, we should pool our resources". The Illrigger might be a bit cagey about who his Lord is, but thats not an unusual situation. Group politics can be fun since you are Lawful Evil in a group of Good and Neutral characters. But I handle that by being very honor bound. More "Solve the riddle" type campaigns are difficult since why the illrigger is there can be harder to roleplay.
If your group has a Paladin, you can have loads of fun. He wants to kill you, but his honor gets in the way. And you can needle him without mercy. The hardest part, for me at least, is playing Lawful Evil not Chaotic Evil. Its sometimes a fine line to walk.
For Seals, I got a bunch of poker chips. I use them to designate what opponent has been sealed and what Interdiction the seal carries with it. One color chip is a plain seal, another is assigned a specific Interdiction. Since I only have 1 at the current time it works well and quick.
As for Illriggers from underplanes other than Hell, I don't see why you couldn't homebrew using the same rules. Also remember, there are 7 cities of Hell plus a handful of other ArchDevils and only 4 or 5 defined subclasses. Which means you could homebrew new subclasses as well. So the Class provides for a lot of growth and flex if your game needs it.
Been playing an Illrigger in a local campaign for a couple of levels now. Its not as hard to integrate as some people think, especially depending on the subclass you choose. The Illrigger does seem a bit overpowered early on, but other classes seem to catch up quickly as they level up.
If the campaign is a straightforward "find the bad guy and kill him", its simple. "My lord has tasked me to find and stop this, we should pool our resources". The Illrigger might be a bit cagey about who his Lord is, but thats not an unusual situation. Group politics can be fun since you are Lawful Evil in a group of Good and Neutral characters. But I handle that by being very honor bound. More "Solve the riddle" type campaigns are difficult since why the illrigger is there can be harder to roleplay.
If your group has a Paladin, you can have loads of fun. He wants to kill you, but his honor gets in the way. And you can needle him without mercy. The hardest part, for me at least, is playing Lawful Evil not Chaotic Evil. Its sometimes a fine line to walk.
For Seals, I got a bunch of poker chips. I use them to designate what opponent has been sealed and what Interdiction the seal carries with it. One color chip is a plain seal, another is assigned a specific Interdiction. Since I only have 1 at the current time it works well and quick.
As for Illriggers from underplanes other than Hell, I don't see why you couldn't homebrew using the same rules. Also remember, there are 7 cities of Hell plus a handful of other ArchDevils and only 4 or 5 defined subclasses. Which means you could homebrew new subclasses as well. So the Class provides for a lot of growth and flex if your game needs it.
It's moreso that the DM is under pressure to include Fiendish internal politics in their campaign if an Illrigger is allowed in, which causes clashes with some games, especially modules.
An Illrigger in Wild Beyond The Witchlight, for example, is absurd to the point of being detrimental to success. Elkhorn of Valor's Call wouldn't tolerate and work with a willing agent of Fiendish powers if/when freed by the party, let alone the other non-Molliver members. They're Lawful Good to a cartoony(*Caddicarus positive Spyro reaction noise here*) degree.
Dawnkeeper, You are right in some ways and every campaign is going to be different. I portray my Illrigger as an agent of some guild or other worldly power who has a vested interest in the ongoing campaign, not as the agent of a hell power that he actually is. In many ways like Arvid from the Deeds of Paksenarrion novels,. Though at some point in time the truth becomes somewhat obvious. But what happens when confronted by Lawfully Good to a cartoonly level could make for interesting game play.
In my personal case, the DM and I have been friends and played RPGs together for decades so we communicate a lot away from the table. We spent a lot of time discussing my characters powers and how they would work in his game, including agreeing on some limits, etc.
One benefit an Illrigger has that a Paladin lacks is the looseness of their oath. An Illrigger can do good to support the greater plan of evil but a Paladin can't do evil to support the greate plan of good.....
I can't stand the name. If Paizo hadn't snapped up "Hellknight" first I'd definitely have preferred that (even the official article on DDB calls them that!), or something like it, since it very efficiently describes what their vibe is supposed to be, which is exactly what a class name should do. "Illrigger" meanwhile tells me nothing. (What are they "rigging" exactly?)
The name has been so off-putting that I haven't even gotten around to reading them in detail yet.
Dawnkeeper, You are right in some ways and every campaign is going to be different. I portray my Illrigger as an agent of some guild or other worldly power who has a vested interest in the ongoing campaign, not as the agent of a hell power that he actually is. In many ways like Arvid from the Deeds of Paksenarrion novels,. Though at some point in time the truth becomes somewhat obvious. But what happens when confronted by Lawfully Good to a cartoonly level could make for interesting game play.
In my personal case, the DM and I have been friends and played RPGs together for decades so we communicate a lot away from the table. We spent a lot of time discussing my characters powers and how they would work in his game, including agreeing on some limits, etc.
One benefit an Illrigger has that a Paladin lacks is the looseness of their oath. An Illrigger can do good to support the greater plan of evil but a Paladin can't do evil to support the greate plan of good.....
If you flavor or homebrew a subclass to be an geared toward an 'otherworldly power' and not strictly a hell knight, now it sounds like a warlock-styled paladin. Is that about right? I can't say I'm familiar with the Deeds of Paksenarrion novels you talk about.
TShaw, Based on which subclass you go with the Illrigger (I do agree Psyren that the name sucks) it can be an very paladin like (the painkiller subclass), very warlock like (the architect of ruin), very evil rogue assassin (the shadowmaster) and you still have the Saguine Knight (blood magic!) and the Hellspeaker, each subclass linked to a different patron. Lots of flexibility and there are several of Hell's ArchDevils who do not have subclasses yet.
You could homebrew an illrigger subclass patroned by Glasya.... that could be interesting.......
The Deeds of Paksenarrion are a set of novels by Elizabeth Moon. Paks is a simple country girl who runs away from home and joins a mercanry company. She learns and grows and in the end is recruited by the High God to be a Paladin, in a word where Paladins are choosen by the Order. Try them out.
I don't know to what extend the person that gives the illigger it's powers, can take it away again. But if you don't want to play an evil character, i'm thinking something like Ghost Rider.
My idea for an illrigger is a warforged. They are created with magic. Maybe the magic to make it more like a puppet didn't work. So now it can behave how it wants to
I portray my Illrigger as an agent of some guild or other worldly power who has a vested interest in the ongoing campaign,
Curious how regular adventure furthers the illrigger's lords real goals though?
For example an adventure to take a cursed item to a ancient burial site to remove a curse for a local sage. The Sage is good guy serving his local community. The tomb hold an old evil overlord that is a mummy. What exactly does carrying this out do to further the goals of the Illrigger's lord?
Do you see where the problem is? Most adventures about doing good deeds. So unless you are actively sabotaging the outcome, how do the good deeds serve Hell?
Unless the DM is hiding some side goals or objectives you are completing in secret, the regular adventure really doesn't further any goals, It just becomes lip service with no meat. Which is the kind of integration issues I could see unless the campaign was designed for this.
Now some DMs will be able to figure this out and welcome it. But it would be a lot of work to make it meaningful in most campaigns.
Some campaigns will be hard to work an illrigger into. But the standard, "find the bad guy, kill the bad guy" are easy. The patron wants the competition out of the way. In your example, maybe the patron wants the item and the ancient burial site gets it within their reach? Maybe the illrigger is just acting as a hired mercanary cause patron's don't pay gold and silver? Maybe the illrigger plans to steal the item in the end? All could depend on which patron.
Yes, it is something every DM and Player will have to figure out. Great topic over beers
I generally love MCDM stuff, but this class is a miss for me. As others have said, the name gives "sick pirate" more than anything else, but most of all I'm turned off because you absolutely don't need a whole separate class to play an evil paladin. 95% of that is roleplay, which obviously you can do regardless of class. If you really need extra supporting mechanics to show how unholy you are, warlock or sorcerer multiclass are right there and are super effective to boot.
If you're going to add a class, do something that opens up new archetypes and character concepts that aren't so easily done with what we have.
But the standard, "find the bad guy, kill the bad guy" are easy.
How many campaigns are just that though? Why even have an RP character or effort in that type of campaign? Not saying it can't fit in SOME, I have been in campaigns the Illrigger would fit it, but they were very specific types of campaigns, with a very creative DM.
Let's take Eve of Ruin. The Illrigger (I do so hate that name) is acting in the party's interest because his patron doesn't want Vecna become more powerful and being competition. Also depending on which patron the illrigger answers to, they may want secrets that Vecna holds. Or maybe their patron doesn't care, but Asmodeus does and told their patron to deal with it and its "orders from on high". Or maybe the illrigger is without orders and is simply looking for personal glory to further his status with his patron.
In the end its the same motive set that a paladin is under, just LE rather than LG, same with a Warlock. In the end it depends on how you play the character and how your DM runs things. Maybe in your game, no one cares, its just a character slinging power and swinging a sword. As older players (we both played Basic D&D at one time) my DM and I like to roleplay the whys more than many. But we also have known each other for a long time so we plotted out a lot of things over beers outside the gaming table.
I mean, it could always be a situation of it benefits the hells in the long run through means they just don't bother to share with the illrigger. That is a cop out, but if it smooths things out for simplicity's sake of having an illrigger...
In truth, there is nothing the Illrigger brings to the table that could not be played by a multi-class combo of some type. The mechanics would be different since the multi-class would not have the ability to Interdict (basically the Illrigger's Infernal Smite), but being a bad boy badass is just a lot of fun to rolepaly
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I was reading the post explaining the new custom class, Illrigger. It calls them Hell Knights. I'm not sure about the 2024 rules, but I know the 2014 rules say that Oath of Conquest Paladins are often considered Hell Knights. Are they both Hell Knights? Did the 2024 paladin drop that part and this is their way of bringing it back or expanding on it? For anyone who has tried playing the class or DMing a campaign with an Illrigger, what were your thoughts? Did it feel like a completely seperate class that was smooth enough mechanically and lorewise to stand on its own? Does D&D beyond even support the class? I'd like to hear someone's firsthand perspective.
I'd just like to articulate that the Illrigger was designed by MCDM, an external studio that builds content for D&D but is not part of Wizards of the Coast.
That said, who doesn't want to be a DEX Paladin assassin devoutly bound and with a direct line to an archdevil? While some people might consider a few subclass abilities to be overpowered, like reaching 3rd level and just choosing to take a critical on any successful hit once per short rest, what's the point of working for the forces of evil without perks?
I think with a good DM and the right campaign it looks like fun (which can be said about most things).
It's nice to see this kind of thing brought back from the annals of older edition hell. And it's mechanically sound, as per MCDM 101.
HOWEVER:
The problem is that it is EXTREMELY hard to integrate into parties.
And it clashes HARD with the DM, because it forces DMs to include Nine Hells lore, or MCDM lore. Not every DM wants that.
Like...it'd be fine in a Ravenloft/CoS game if, say, the Nine Hells wanted a specific soul taken to their custody...
But imagine this class in a Waterdeep:Dragon Heist game where THAT scenario happens(Not sure of spoiler policy off the top of my head).
It inherently REQUIRES exceptions to be made around it.
So it works mechanically, but it's jarring for some DMs and for stories not adding exceptions for it.
Mechanically, I think illrigger is kind of a mess. Too many fiddly bits (which is a common problem with third-party classes), and it tries to do too much
Lore-wise, I don't really understand why it even exists. As you said, there's already a class for knightly orders, and it's called the paladin
Active characters:
Green Hill Sunrise, jaded tabaxi mercenary trapped in the Dark Domains (Battle Master fighter)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Conquest Paladins and Oathbreakers don't always hammer in the proverbial nail, tho.
Not every DM abides by "flavor is free", either. So this helps with that at the cost of bringing in infernal matters to the game, which opens up so many cans of worms.
It exists to fill the hole of the proverbial antipaladin from past editions some people feel is missing from 5e. Not everyone feels one way, another, or at all, and that's fine.
Kinda wish this had options related to Gehenna, The Abyss, Hades, The Shadowfell and other evil planes, tho, NGL.
Been playing an Illrigger in a local campaign for a couple of levels now. Its not as hard to integrate as some people think, especially depending on the subclass you choose. The Illrigger does seem a bit overpowered early on, but other classes seem to catch up quickly as they level up.
If the campaign is a straightforward "find the bad guy and kill him", its simple. "My lord has tasked me to find and stop this, we should pool our resources". The Illrigger might be a bit cagey about who his Lord is, but thats not an unusual situation. Group politics can be fun since you are Lawful Evil in a group of Good and Neutral characters. But I handle that by being very honor bound. More "Solve the riddle" type campaigns are difficult since why the illrigger is there can be harder to roleplay.
If your group has a Paladin, you can have loads of fun. He wants to kill you, but his honor gets in the way. And you can needle him without mercy. The hardest part, for me at least, is playing Lawful Evil not Chaotic Evil. Its sometimes a fine line to walk.
For Seals, I got a bunch of poker chips. I use them to designate what opponent has been sealed and what Interdiction the seal carries with it. One color chip is a plain seal, another is assigned a specific Interdiction. Since I only have 1 at the current time it works well and quick.
As for Illriggers from underplanes other than Hell, I don't see why you couldn't homebrew using the same rules. Also remember, there are 7 cities of Hell plus a handful of other ArchDevils and only 4 or 5 defined subclasses. Which means you could homebrew new subclasses as well. So the Class provides for a lot of growth and flex if your game needs it.
It's moreso that the DM is under pressure to include Fiendish internal politics in their campaign if an Illrigger is allowed in, which causes clashes with some games, especially modules.
An Illrigger in Wild Beyond The Witchlight, for example, is absurd to the point of being detrimental to success. Elkhorn of Valor's Call wouldn't tolerate and work with a willing agent of Fiendish powers if/when freed by the party, let alone the other non-Molliver members. They're Lawful Good to a cartoony(*Caddicarus positive Spyro reaction noise here*) degree.
Dawnkeeper, You are right in some ways and every campaign is going to be different. I portray my Illrigger as an agent of some guild or other worldly power who has a vested interest in the ongoing campaign, not as the agent of a hell power that he actually is. In many ways like Arvid from the Deeds of Paksenarrion novels,. Though at some point in time the truth becomes somewhat obvious. But what happens when confronted by Lawfully Good to a cartoonly level could make for interesting game play.
In my personal case, the DM and I have been friends and played RPGs together for decades so we communicate a lot away from the table. We spent a lot of time discussing my characters powers and how they would work in his game, including agreeing on some limits, etc.
One benefit an Illrigger has that a Paladin lacks is the looseness of their oath. An Illrigger can do good to support the greater plan of evil but a Paladin can't do evil to support the greate plan of good.....
I can't stand the name. If Paizo hadn't snapped up "Hellknight" first I'd definitely have preferred that (even the official article on DDB calls them that!), or something like it, since it very efficiently describes what their vibe is supposed to be, which is exactly what a class name should do. "Illrigger" meanwhile tells me nothing. (What are they "rigging" exactly?)
The name has been so off-putting that I haven't even gotten around to reading them in detail yet.
If you flavor or homebrew a subclass to be an geared toward an 'otherworldly power' and not strictly a hell knight, now it sounds like a warlock-styled paladin. Is that about right? I can't say I'm familiar with the Deeds of Paksenarrion novels you talk about.
TShaw, Based on which subclass you go with the Illrigger (I do agree Psyren that the name sucks) it can be an very paladin like (the painkiller subclass), very warlock like (the architect of ruin), very evil rogue assassin (the shadowmaster) and you still have the Saguine Knight (blood magic!) and the Hellspeaker, each subclass linked to a different patron. Lots of flexibility and there are several of Hell's ArchDevils who do not have subclasses yet.
You could homebrew an illrigger subclass patroned by Glasya.... that could be interesting.......
The Deeds of Paksenarrion are a set of novels by Elizabeth Moon. Paks is a simple country girl who runs away from home and joins a mercanry company. She learns and grows and in the end is recruited by the High God to be a Paladin, in a word where Paladins are choosen by the Order. Try them out.
I don't know to what extend the person that gives the illigger it's powers, can take it away again. But if you don't want to play an evil character, i'm thinking something like Ghost Rider.
My idea for an illrigger is a warforged. They are created with magic. Maybe the magic to make it more like a puppet didn't work. So now it can behave how it wants to
Curious how regular adventure furthers the illrigger's lords real goals though?
For example an adventure to take a cursed item to a ancient burial site to remove a curse for a local sage. The Sage is good guy serving his local community. The tomb hold an old evil overlord that is a mummy. What exactly does carrying this out do to further the goals of the Illrigger's lord?
Do you see where the problem is? Most adventures about doing good deeds. So unless you are actively sabotaging the outcome, how do the good deeds serve Hell?
Unless the DM is hiding some side goals or objectives you are completing in secret, the regular adventure really doesn't further any goals, It just becomes lip service with no meat. Which is the kind of integration issues I could see unless the campaign was designed for this.
Now some DMs will be able to figure this out and welcome it. But it would be a lot of work to make it meaningful in most campaigns.
Deyric,
Some campaigns will be hard to work an illrigger into. But the standard, "find the bad guy, kill the bad guy" are easy. The patron wants the competition out of the way. In your example, maybe the patron wants the item and the ancient burial site gets it within their reach? Maybe the illrigger is just acting as a hired mercanary cause patron's don't pay gold and silver? Maybe the illrigger plans to steal the item in the end? All could depend on which patron.
Yes, it is something every DM and Player will have to figure out. Great topic over beers
I generally love MCDM stuff, but this class is a miss for me. As others have said, the name gives "sick pirate" more than anything else, but most of all I'm turned off because you absolutely don't need a whole separate class to play an evil paladin. 95% of that is roleplay, which obviously you can do regardless of class. If you really need extra supporting mechanics to show how unholy you are, warlock or sorcerer multiclass are right there and are super effective to boot.
If you're going to add a class, do something that opens up new archetypes and character concepts that aren't so easily done with what we have.
My homebrew subclasses (full list here)
(Artificer) Swordmage | Glasswright | (Barbarian) Path of the Savage Embrace
(Bard) College of Dance | (Fighter) Warlord | Cannoneer
(Monk) Way of the Elements | (Ranger) Blade Dancer
(Rogue) DaggerMaster | Inquisitor | (Sorcerer) Riftwalker | Spellfist
(Warlock) The Swarm
How many campaigns are just that though? Why even have an RP character or effort in that type of campaign?
Not saying it can't fit in SOME, I have been in campaigns the Illrigger would fit it, but they were very specific types of campaigns, with a very creative DM.
Let's take Eve of Ruin. The Illrigger (I do so hate that name) is acting in the party's interest because his patron doesn't want Vecna become more powerful and being competition. Also depending on which patron the illrigger answers to, they may want secrets that Vecna holds. Or maybe their patron doesn't care, but Asmodeus does and told their patron to deal with it and its "orders from on high". Or maybe the illrigger is without orders and is simply looking for personal glory to further his status with his patron.
In the end its the same motive set that a paladin is under, just LE rather than LG, same with a Warlock. In the end it depends on how you play the character and how your DM runs things. Maybe in your game, no one cares, its just a character slinging power and swinging a sword. As older players (we both played Basic D&D at one time) my DM and I like to roleplay the whys more than many. But we also have known each other for a long time so we plotted out a lot of things over beers outside the gaming table.
I mean, it could always be a situation of it benefits the hells in the long run through means they just don't bother to share with the illrigger. That is a cop out, but if it smooths things out for simplicity's sake of having an illrigger...
In truth, there is nothing the Illrigger brings to the table that could not be played by a multi-class combo of some type. The mechanics would be different since the multi-class would not have the ability to Interdict (basically the Illrigger's Infernal Smite), but being a bad boy badass is just a lot of fun to rolepaly