Oh well, looks like it was not meant to be. I guess I will just have to put on some Theatre of Tragedy and eat some chocolates without a new UA to read through.
From reading these comments, I'm glad I'm not the only one who saw that they took Drakewarden and turned it into a Fighter subclass. That was the first thing that came to mind when I read it.
took Drakewarden, made it weaker and then threw it on fighter subclass is more accurate.
I have taken the feedback survey yet I found it confining. I want to post my entire feedback for review, hopefully by someone with input to the process of finalizing these subclasses for publication. Thank you for your time.
COLLEGE OF THE MOON
LEVEL 3: MOONSHAE FOLKTALES
Tale of Life- Let the Bard add his Charisma Bonus to the roll
LEVEL 6: BLESSING OF THE MOONWELLS
The Moonbeam spell this ability casts needs to scale with the Bard levels of the character
LEVEL 14: BOLSTERED FOLKTALES
Tale of Life- The d6 adds the Bard's Charisma Bonus
KNOWLEDGE DOMAIN
LEVEL 3: BLESSINGS OF KNOWLEDGE
Change "You have Expertise in these two skills." to "Choose two skills from the following list that you have proficiency in from this ability or from any Class, Species, Feat, or Background feature: Arcana, History, Nature, Religion. Gain Expertise in those two skills.
LEVEL 3: KNOWLEDGE DOMAIN SPELLS
Cleric Level 3-Replace Command with Tasha's Hideous Laughter. "Old tomes" and "esoteric lore" could come in the form of a good joke.
Cleric Level 3-Add Mind Sliver. A disruption of the "process of the mind itself"
Cleric Level 3-Consider changing Detect Thoughts to See Invisibility. Is being a psychic really part of being knowledgeable?
Cleric Level 5-Strongly consider changing Nondetection to Sending. Sending allows the communication of knowledge. A central requirement for knowledge to exist is being able to communicate it to others.
LEVEL 3: MIND MAGIC
Replace with DIVINE ATHENAEUM(ARCHIVES)
As a Magic action you may cast any spell from any class with the Ritual tag provided you are of sufficient level to prepare spells of that level. Casting a spell this way does not use a spell slot. You may do this a number of times equal to your Wisdom bonus (minimum one) regaining all uses after a Long Rest.
LEVEL 6: UNFETTERED MIND (as I said before is being a psychic really part of being knowledgeable?)
Replace with MIND MAGIC
As a Magic action, you can expend one use of your Channel Divinity to manifest your magical
knowledge. Choose one spell from the Knowledge Domain Spells table that you have
prepared. As part of that action, you cast that spell without expending a spell slot or needing
Material components.
Add-
LEVEL 6: STUDIOUS MIND- You may replace any Intelligence check or Intelligence Skill check you make with a number equal to a 10 on the die plus any applying modifiers.
LEVEL 17: DIVINE FOREKNOWLEDGE
Change to-As a Bonus Action, you magically expand your mind to the possibilities of the future. For 1 hour, you or a target of your choice has Advantage or Disadvantage on D20 Tests. Once you use this feature, you can’t use it again until you finish a Long Rest. You can also restore your use of this feature by expending a level 6+ spell slot (no action required). Only one target may be affected at a time.
PURPLE DRAGON KNIGHT
LEVEL 3: KNIGHTLY ENVOY
Change-The Purple Knight learns Draconic. If the Purple Knight already knows Draconic then he learns a language of his choice. Since his companion is a Dragon he should speak the language.
Remove "Additionally, you can cast the Comprehend Languages spell but only as a Ritual. Intelligence
is your spellcasting ability for it."
Add "Additionally, choose the Intimidation or Persuasion Skill. You have proficiency in that skill." This is more Knightly a choice.
LEVEL 3: PURPLE DRAGON COMPANION
The Dragon should share the alignment as the character.
The AC and other abilities of the Dragon should be based on Charisma rather than Intelligence.
As is the Dragon has only 16 HP when the Knight gains this ability. 16 HP puts the Dragon in danger of dying from one Ogre attack (2d8+4). 10 "plus four times your Fighter level" would give 22 a small increase but one that improves the odds of the Dragon surviving more than one round in combat. Better would be "10 plus four times your Fighter level or half your maximum hit points whichever is greater."
OATH OF THE NOBLE GENIES
A Dexterity based Two weapon fighting Paladin. That is fine. It is either perfect or too powerful but I do not know what to trim. Probably nothing. People will really have fun with this one, it may be best to leave it as is.
LEVEL 3: ELEMENTAL SMITE
Djinni’s Escape
It should be clear that the "mist-like form" does nothing other than making the Paladin Immune to the Grappled, Prone, and Restrained conditions.
WINTER WALKER
LEVEL 3: FRIGID EXPLORER
Polar Strikes-Change the 1d4 to 1d6 and 1d6 to 1d8. Otherwise this ability may be too weak.
LEVEL 3: WINTER WALKER SPELLS
Add-
Ranger Level 3 add Fog Cloud
Ranger Level 5 add Augury or Silence
Ranger Level 9 add Blink or Nondetection
Ranger Level 13 replace Ice Storm with Freedom of Movement and Hallucinatory Terrain
Ranger Level 17 add Antilife Shell
Fleshing this feature out makes for a more interesting subclass.
LEVEL 7: FORTIFYING SOUL
Replace with "Your experience surviving harrowing environments allows you to bolster your allies in
addition to yourself. Add Leomund's Tiny Hut to your list of prepared spells. After taking a Short or Long Rest in your Leomund's Tiny Hut's Emanation, you can choose a number of creatures equal to your Proficiency Bonus*. A chosen creature has Advantage on saving throws to avoid or end the Frightened condition until they take a Long Rest. Once you use this feature, you can’t use it again until you finish a Long Rest."
*Maybe Wisdom Bonus minimum one
SCION OF THE THREE
Mandate a Neutral or Evil Alignment. Consider allowing the use Charisma or Wisdom for this subclasses' features.
LEVEL 3: DREAD ALLEGIANCE
Replace Bane Cantrip Minor Illusion with Mind Sliver. Bane is Tyranny through force not trickery. Replace Bhaal Cantrip Blade Ward with Poison Spray. Bhaal should prioritize hurting others.
SPELLFIRE SORCERY
LEVEL 3: SPELLFIRE BURST
Radiant Fire-Remove the Saving Throw and increase the die to d8. OR the ability does d8 damage and if a Dexterity save is failed the target is Blinded for one round if it can be Blinded. Otherwise this ability is too weak.
LEVEL 3: SPELLFIRE SPELLS
Replace Level 7 Wall of Fire with Death Ward. Wall of Fire is a static effect with no physical connection to the Spellfire Sorcerer. Spellfire effects should emanate from the caster such as Fire Shield or Aura of Vitality or be instantaneous such as Scorching Ray or Flame Strike.
LEVEL 14: HONED SPELLFIRE
Radiant Fire-Increase the damage to 3d8. If the level three ability did not include a Dexterity save or be blinded for one round add it here.
BLADESINGER
Changes are necessary to preserve the class role of the Eldritch Knight. Wizards should not have the Extra Attack ability.
LEVEL 6: EXTRA ATTACK
Replace this with: "SONG OF FURY-As a Bonus Action, you can make one attack with a weapon or an Unarmed Strike. You can use this Bonus Action a number of times equal to your Intelligence modifier (minimum of once). You regain all expended uses when you finish a Short or Long Rest.
LEVEL 14: SONG OF VICTORY
Replace this with: SONG OF VICTORY-Activating Bladesong no longer requires an action. While Bladesong is active you gain the following additional benefits:
Mobility. You may take the Disengage action as a Bonus action.
Riposte. When a creature misses you with a melee attack, you can use your reaction to make a melee weapon attack against the creature. You may do this a number of times equal to your Intelligence modifier. Uses are reset after a Short or Long Rest.
Mettle. When you make a Constitution saving throw to maintain Concentration you can choose to take a 10 on the die plus any applying modifiers.
Sorry mate but no one with any sort of input to the design process reads these forums and even if they did I doubt they'd be paying too much attention to individual posts. The surveys are cobnfining for a reason, it allows them to sort through a huge amount of data in a way that is manageable. If allowing everyone to write an essay and still read it all was possible they'd use that format
I really really really hope we get a video discussing the scores and feedback they got from the survey. I like getting a peek behind the curtain. @LaTiaJacquise can you say if it is likely to happen or not?
Yah, a video about the survey results would be very good. Hopefully they can admit they messed up on the PDK but they did do a good job on the cold ranger and the spellfire sorceror - hope those make it through
I think the two everyone had problems with were the fighter (PDK) and the rogue. Everything else seemed ok more or less.
I'm content with the Rogue, and I think a lot of other people are too. The complaints I see are mostly handwringing over being "forced" to be evil- even though the description specifically says it can also manifest as a result of being hit by a curse or something similar- and whether or not if fits for the deities invoked for the modes in a FR context to "share" the PC, which aren't as massive as completely retconning the background of Purple Dragon Knights.
When was the last time you saw a Paladin in anything aside from heavy armor?
The last time I played one? You trade a little bit of AC for better initiative, the ability to sneak around, and the ability to not be completely worthless at range.
I’m pulling for the Oath of Genies; it’s a nice way to help enable DEX Paladins.
What is wrong with DEX Paladins?
When was the last time you saw a Paladin in anything aside from heavy armor?
The paladins I play. And other people that I play with. Paladins aren't required to wear full pate. High Dex gives you higher AC, faster initiative and with Finesse weapons, to-hit and damage. So like I asked, what is wrong with a Dex Paladin?
I'm not saying there's anything wrong with it, but I've yet to see anything but Heavy Armor Paladins in the games I've played in. Lots of people default to it, and I think it's good to have a subclass that expressly pushes to shake that up.
The only time I have seen a dex paladin anywhere outside of theory craft discussions, was when one of my players made a sorcadin, and that was only because he started as a sorcerer to get the con save, but he hated its fragility in melee and by level 8, switched PCs to a bard to just lean into caster and buffing the party.
I'm not saying there's anything wrong with it, but I've yet to see anything but Heavy Armor Paladins in the games I've played in. Lots of people default to it, and I think it's good to have a subclass that expressly pushes to shake that up.
That has more to do with people's image of a 'proper' paladin than with the mechanics of the class.
I'm not saying there's anything wrong with it, but I've yet to see anything but Heavy Armor Paladins in the games I've played in. Lots of people default to it, and I think it's good to have a subclass that expressly pushes to shake that up.
That has more to do with people's image of a 'proper' paladin than with the mechanics of the class.
Ergo the niche for a Paladin that expressly encourages light armor, as I said.
Ergo the niche for a Paladin that expressly encourages light armor, as I said.
If people don't want to play Dex paladins, the game shouldn't try to force the issue by putting in grotesquely overpowered options. Dex paladins work just fine mechanically.
Ergo the niche for a Paladin that expressly encourages light armor, as I said.
If people don't want to play Dex paladins, the game shouldn't try to force the issue by putting in grotesquely overpowered options. Dex paladins work just fine mechanically.
"Grotesquely overpowered" is rather melodramatic. You add your CHA mod to Light armor or no armor. Realistically you're looking at +2 or +3 on top of the usual light armor calculation for a typical character until 12th level; worst case you get a Bladelock dip to emphasize CHA over DEX, which still evens out since that means the DEX side of the AC calculation is reduced. Even with a two level dip for Armor of Shadows, that's just 1 extra AC over studded armor. Hardly "grotesquely overpowered". Trying to exploit the Monk unarmored AC feature doesn't really hold up because you need 13 in WIS and STR on top of CHA and DEX for that dip, so barring blessed rolls or a campaign where characters are deliberately overpowered that's gonna be a very mediocre point spread.
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Oh well, looks like it was not meant to be. I guess I will just have to put on some Theatre of Tragedy and eat some chocolates without a new UA to read through.
She/Her Player and Dungeon Master
Totally agree.
I have taken the feedback survey yet I found it confining. I want to post my entire feedback for review, hopefully by someone with input to the process of finalizing these subclasses for publication. Thank you for your time.
COLLEGE OF THE MOON
LEVEL 3: MOONSHAE FOLKTALES
Tale of Life- Let the Bard add his Charisma Bonus to the roll
LEVEL 6: BLESSING OF THE MOONWELLS
The Moonbeam spell this ability casts needs to scale with the Bard levels of the character
LEVEL 14: BOLSTERED FOLKTALES
Tale of Life- The d6 adds the Bard's Charisma Bonus
KNOWLEDGE DOMAIN
LEVEL 3: BLESSINGS OF KNOWLEDGE
Change "You have Expertise in these two skills." to "Choose two skills from the following list that you have proficiency in from this ability or from any Class, Species, Feat, or Background feature: Arcana, History, Nature, Religion. Gain Expertise in those two skills.
LEVEL 3: KNOWLEDGE DOMAIN SPELLS
Cleric Level 3-Replace Command with Tasha's Hideous Laughter. "Old tomes" and "esoteric lore" could come in the form of a good joke.
Cleric Level 3-Add Mind Sliver. A disruption of the "process of the mind itself"
Cleric Level 3-Consider changing Detect Thoughts to See Invisibility. Is being a psychic really part of being knowledgeable?
Cleric Level 5-Strongly consider changing Nondetection to Sending. Sending allows the communication of knowledge. A central requirement for knowledge to exist is being able to communicate it to others.
LEVEL 3: MIND MAGIC
Replace with DIVINE ATHENAEUM(ARCHIVES)
As a Magic action you may cast any spell from any class with the Ritual tag provided you are of sufficient level to prepare spells of that level. Casting a spell this way does not use a spell slot. You may do this a number of times equal to your Wisdom bonus (minimum one) regaining all uses after a Long Rest.
LEVEL 6: UNFETTERED MIND (as I said before is being a psychic really part of being knowledgeable?)
Replace with MIND MAGIC
As a Magic action, you can expend one use of your Channel Divinity to manifest your magical
knowledge. Choose one spell from the Knowledge Domain Spells table that you have
prepared. As part of that action, you cast that spell without expending a spell slot or needing
Material components.
Add-
LEVEL 6: STUDIOUS MIND- You may replace any Intelligence check or Intelligence Skill check you make with a number equal to a 10 on the die plus any applying modifiers.
LEVEL 17: DIVINE FOREKNOWLEDGE
Change to-As a Bonus Action, you magically expand your mind to the possibilities of the future. For 1 hour, you or a target of your choice has Advantage or Disadvantage on D20 Tests. Once you use this feature, you can’t use it again until you finish a Long Rest. You can also restore your use of this feature by expending a level 6+ spell slot (no action required). Only one target may be affected at a time.
PURPLE DRAGON KNIGHT
LEVEL 3: KNIGHTLY ENVOY
Change-The Purple Knight learns Draconic. If the Purple Knight already knows Draconic then he learns a language of his choice. Since his companion is a Dragon he should speak the language.
Remove "Additionally, you can cast the Comprehend Languages spell but only as a Ritual. Intelligence
is your spellcasting ability for it."
Add "Additionally, choose the Intimidation or Persuasion Skill. You have proficiency in that skill." This is more Knightly a choice.
LEVEL 3: PURPLE DRAGON COMPANION
The Dragon should share the alignment as the character.
The AC and other abilities of the Dragon should be based on Charisma rather than Intelligence.
As is the Dragon has only 16 HP when the Knight gains this ability. 16 HP puts the Dragon in danger of dying from one Ogre attack (2d8+4). 10 "plus four times your Fighter level" would give 22 a small increase but one that improves the odds of the Dragon surviving more than one round in combat. Better would be "10 plus four times your Fighter level or half your maximum hit points whichever is greater."
OATH OF THE NOBLE GENIES
A Dexterity based Two weapon fighting Paladin. That is fine. It is either perfect or too powerful but I do not know what to trim. Probably nothing. People will really have fun with this one, it may be best to leave it as is.
LEVEL 3: ELEMENTAL SMITE
Djinni’s Escape
It should be clear that the "mist-like form" does nothing other than making the Paladin Immune to the Grappled, Prone, and Restrained conditions.
WINTER WALKER
LEVEL 3: FRIGID EXPLORER
Polar Strikes-Change the 1d4 to 1d6 and 1d6 to 1d8. Otherwise this ability may be too weak.
LEVEL 3: WINTER WALKER SPELLS
Add-
Ranger Level 3 add Fog Cloud
Ranger Level 5 add Augury or Silence
Ranger Level 9 add Blink or Nondetection
Ranger Level 13 replace Ice Storm with Freedom of Movement and Hallucinatory Terrain
Ranger Level 17 add Antilife Shell
Fleshing this feature out makes for a more interesting subclass.
LEVEL 7: FORTIFYING SOUL
Replace with "Your experience surviving harrowing environments allows you to bolster your allies in
addition to yourself. Add Leomund's Tiny Hut to your list of prepared spells. After taking a Short or Long Rest in your Leomund's Tiny Hut's Emanation, you can choose a number of creatures equal to your Proficiency Bonus*. A chosen creature has Advantage on saving throws to avoid or end the Frightened condition until they take a Long Rest. Once you use this feature, you can’t use it again until you finish a Long Rest."
*Maybe Wisdom Bonus minimum one
SCION OF THE THREE
Mandate a Neutral or Evil Alignment. Consider allowing the use Charisma or Wisdom for this subclasses' features.
LEVEL 3: DREAD ALLEGIANCE
Replace Bane Cantrip Minor Illusion with Mind Sliver. Bane is Tyranny through force not trickery. Replace Bhaal Cantrip Blade Ward with Poison Spray. Bhaal should prioritize hurting others.
SPELLFIRE SORCERY
LEVEL 3: SPELLFIRE BURST
Radiant Fire-Remove the Saving Throw and increase the die to d8. OR the ability does d8 damage and if a Dexterity save is failed the target is Blinded for one round if it can be Blinded. Otherwise this ability is too weak.
LEVEL 3: SPELLFIRE SPELLS
Replace Level 7 Wall of Fire with Death Ward. Wall of Fire is a static effect with no physical connection to the Spellfire Sorcerer. Spellfire effects should emanate from the caster such as Fire Shield or Aura of Vitality or be instantaneous such as Scorching Ray or Flame Strike.
LEVEL 14: HONED SPELLFIRE
Radiant Fire-Increase the damage to 3d8. If the level three ability did not include a Dexterity save or be blinded for one round add it here.
BLADESINGER
Changes are necessary to preserve the class role of the Eldritch Knight. Wizards should not have the Extra Attack ability.
LEVEL 6: EXTRA ATTACK
Replace this with: "SONG OF FURY-As a Bonus Action, you can make one attack with a weapon or an Unarmed Strike. You can use this Bonus Action a number of times equal to your Intelligence modifier (minimum of once). You regain all expended uses when you finish a Short or Long Rest.
LEVEL 14: SONG OF VICTORY
Replace this with: SONG OF VICTORY-Activating Bladesong no longer requires an action. While Bladesong is active you gain the following additional benefits:
Mobility. You may take the Disengage action as a Bonus action.
Riposte. When a creature misses you with a melee attack, you can use your reaction to make a melee weapon attack against the creature. You may do this a number of times equal to your Intelligence modifier. Uses are reset after a Short or Long Rest.
Mettle. When you make a Constitution saving throw to maintain Concentration you can choose to take a 10 on the die plus any applying modifiers.
Sorry mate but no one with any sort of input to the design process reads these forums and even if they did I doubt they'd be paying too much attention to individual posts. The surveys are cobnfining for a reason, it allows them to sort through a huge amount of data in a way that is manageable. If allowing everyone to write an essay and still read it all was possible they'd use that format
I really really really hope we get a video discussing the scores and feedback they got from the survey. I like getting a peek behind the curtain. @LaTiaJacquise can you say if it is likely to happen or not?
She/Her Player and Dungeon Master
Yah, a video about the survey results would be very good. Hopefully they can admit they messed up on the PDK but they did do a good job on the cold ranger and the spellfire sorceror - hope those make it through
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
I’m pulling for the Oath of Genies; it’s a nice way to help enable DEX Paladins.
Um... DEX paladins are totally fine already?
I think the two everyone had problems with were the fighter (PDK) and the rogue. Everything else seemed ok more or less.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
What is wrong with DEX Paladins?
When was the last time you saw a Paladin in anything aside from heavy armor?
I'm content with the Rogue, and I think a lot of other people are too. The complaints I see are mostly handwringing over being "forced" to be evil- even though the description specifically says it can also manifest as a result of being hit by a curse or something similar- and whether or not if fits for the deities invoked for the modes in a FR context to "share" the PC, which aren't as massive as completely retconning the background of Purple Dragon Knights.
The last time I played one? You trade a little bit of AC for better initiative, the ability to sneak around, and the ability to not be completely worthless at range.
The paladins I play. And other people that I play with. Paladins aren't required to wear full pate. High Dex gives you higher AC, faster initiative and with Finesse weapons, to-hit and damage. So like I asked, what is wrong with a Dex Paladin?
I'm not saying there's anything wrong with it, but I've yet to see anything but Heavy Armor Paladins in the games I've played in. Lots of people default to it, and I think it's good to have a subclass that expressly pushes to shake that up.
The only time I have seen a dex paladin anywhere outside of theory craft discussions, was when one of my players made a sorcadin, and that was only because he started as a sorcerer to get the con save, but he hated its fragility in melee and by level 8, switched PCs to a bard to just lean into caster and buffing the party.
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That has more to do with people's image of a 'proper' paladin than with the mechanics of the class.
Ergo the niche for a Paladin that expressly encourages light armor, as I said.
If people don't want to play Dex paladins, the game shouldn't try to force the issue by putting in grotesquely overpowered options. Dex paladins work just fine mechanically.
"Grotesquely overpowered" is rather melodramatic. You add your CHA mod to Light armor or no armor. Realistically you're looking at +2 or +3 on top of the usual light armor calculation for a typical character until 12th level; worst case you get a Bladelock dip to emphasize CHA over DEX, which still evens out since that means the DEX side of the AC calculation is reduced. Even with a two level dip for Armor of Shadows, that's just 1 extra AC over studded armor. Hardly "grotesquely overpowered". Trying to exploit the Monk unarmored AC feature doesn't really hold up because you need 13 in WIS and STR on top of CHA and DEX for that dip, so barring blessed rolls or a campaign where characters are deliberately overpowered that's gonna be a very mediocre point spread.