Out of the three game systems I play, only D&D doesn't offer free digital copies and character creators for what I buy. That's WotC's prerogative, but it really shouldn't be surprising why people find it confusing that WotC doesn't offer what other companies do.
While of the three game systems I play, none of them offer free digital copies, and one of them offers no digital copies at all (because of their license with the House of the Mouse).
The problem with DnDBeyond content is that you do not buy anything here, everything you pay for you are renting for an unspecified amount of time and you have absolutely no rights of any kind whatsoever to it. It's not like you're buying the digital book you can download and keep in a Google Drive, you don't get a PDF of the Players Manual if you bought it here.
What you buy at DnDBeyond, you do not own. I find it strange that people make these analogies like "well when you buy a CD, where is my Vinyl cut?".. It's not the same thing. When you buy DnDBeyond content, you quite literally have acquired absolutely nothing. You have been granted temporary access to something. It's like buying CD and then one day, at some point this company is going to come to your house and take back the entire collection you have.
This is why when you buy a physical book, the content on DnDBeyond for that book should be free. You have already paid for an actual product. DnDbeyond digital content is not a product, you own nothing, its a rental service.
There was a reasonable disconnect when DnDBeyond was a third party, but it is now a Wizards of the Coast company. That excuse is kind of bs today.
This is why when you buy a physical book, the content on DnDBeyond for that book should be free. You have already paid for an actual product. DnDbeyond digital content is not a product, you own nothing, its a rental service.
Dndbeyond provides a service, not just a copy of material. It is software that does a bunch of math, accounting, record-keeping, and state-keeping for you (and your friends).
A better analogy would be saying that buying an album should let you attend a concert for free.
Also, much of this is moot given the way content-sharing and free accounts work on dndbeyond. One person (the DM, presumably) can pay for services and online books that the entire play group can partake of.
The problem with DnDBeyond content is that you do not buy anything here, everything you pay for you are renting for an unspecified amount of time and you have absolutely no rights of any kind whatsoever to it. It's not like you're buying the digital book you can download and keep in a Google Drive, you don't get a PDF of the Players Manual if you bought it here.
What you buy at DnDBeyond, you do not own. I find it strange that people make these analogies like "well when you buy a CD, where is my Vinyl cut?".. It's not the same thing. When you buy DnDBeyond content, you quite literally have acquired absolutely nothing. You have been granted temporary access to something. It's like buying CD and then one day, at some point this company is going to come to your house and take back the entire collection you have.
This is why when you buy a physical book, the content on DnDBeyond for that book should be free. You have already paid for an actual product. DnDbeyond digital content is not a product, you own nothing, its a rental service.
There was a reasonable disconnect when DnDBeyond was a third party, but it is now a Wizards of the Coast company. That excuse is kind of bs today.
So, let’s address the reality behind this “books last forever, electronic access can be revoked at any time” rhetoric. I’ve had my account for a little over 4 years, had the ‘14 PHB, XGtE, and TCoE for most of that time, along with several others I’ve purchased since. I’ve been in at least 4 campaigns in that period, and spent a lot of time looking through those books. Now, maybe I’m just particularly hard on them, but in my experience 4 years of active duty tends to wear out books, and I’ve got no plans to slow down on D&D anytime soon. On the other hand, every book offered on Beyond remains accessible- even the two they stopped selling, assuming you own them or they’ve been shared with you. The old Core 3 are even still on the marketplace last I knew. It’s all there, with no wear or tear to speak of, and despite the doomsaying of “what if they decide to pull the plug tomorrow”, the reality is that WotC has given every indication that Beyond is a cornerstone of their ongoing business model, and they intend to carry this iteration of D&D forward for the foreseeable future. Call that 5 years conservatively, more likely 10+. And no, this is not just “what they say now”, it’s what the heads of a publicly traded company have openly said to their investors. That’s not a course you change on a whim if you like having capital in the bank.
So, we’re looking at probably another decade of service on our purchases at this point, barring a radical upset to the market/company. Out of curiosity, how many people here have a book that they regularly take down and page through that’s more than a decade old and in good condition? I’m gonna go out on a limb and guess “not many”; paper and glue only hold up so well. Whereas not only has this site held up for a good stretch, but it’s the stated intent of the company to keep the site going for at least that much longer. And, additionally, if you’re really that scared of losing content you paid for, you can take maybe half an hour at the outside to use any browser’s print function to save a PDF copy of that content. By any realistic measurement of the performance we’ve seen and the options available, if you’re actively using your books you can get at least as much of a lifetime from this “rental service” as you will from a hard copy.
This is why when you buy a physical book, the content on DnDBeyond for that book should be free. You have already paid for an actual product. DnDbeyond digital content is not a product, you own nothing, its a rental service.
This has been brought up so many times. Besides the fact that running this site isn't free, there is the issue of how do you prove that someone has purchased the book in a way that doesn't prevent 12 different people from using the same purchase and is still not prohibitively cost and/or labor intensive? On the other hand, if it only works with direct WotC/DDB purchases that hurts other vendors/LGS, etc. as well as potentially limiting availability of books through other outlets.
The problem with DnDBeyond content is that you do not buy anything here, everything you pay for you are renting for an unspecified amount of time and you have absolutely no rights of any kind whatsoever to it. It's not like you're buying the digital book you can download and keep in a Google Drive, you don't get a PDF of the Players Manual if you bought it here.
What you buy at DnDBeyond, you do not own. I find it strange that people make these analogies like "well when you buy a CD, where is my Vinyl cut?".. It's not the same thing. When you buy DnDBeyond content, you quite literally have acquired absolutely nothing. You have been granted temporary access to something. It's like buying CD and then one day, at some point this company is going to come to your house and take back the entire collection you have.
This is why when you buy a physical book, the content on DnDBeyond for that book should be free. You have already paid for an actual product. DnDbeyond digital content is not a product, you own nothing, its a rental service.
There was a reasonable disconnect when DnDBeyond was a third party, but it is now a Wizards of the Coast company. That excuse is kind of bs today.
The point of physical novels not granting a license to the Kindle version was brought up. That one compares quite nicely.
Kindle also gives a ~50% Audible discount on books you buy or borrow on Kindle, offers a subscription with a huge catalog, and you actually own a digital copy of the things go you buy on both Audible and Kindle. Tells you a date they will stop supporting any hardware you buy and those are just the low hanging fruit when it. Ome to the differences.
Kindle also gives a ~50% Audible discount on books you buy or borrow on Kindle, offers a subscription with a huge catalog, and you actually own a digital copy of the things go you buy on both Audible and Kindle. Tells you a date they will stop supporting any hardware you buy and those are just the low hanging fruit when it. Ome to the differences.
DDB ≠ Kindle not even close.
DDB gives a ~67% discount on digital when you buy it bundled with physical, has their homebrew tools wide open to add content all you want (including official content without paying for digital at all), and a set of tools for building characters and rolling straight from the sheet on the website or app.
They're not the same service, but there's comparable points to be made. And trust me, I haven't been happy 100% either. Not saying they're without fault. But this is a weird point to get hung up on.
Everything for the Kindle works smoothly, everything on DDB is barely out of Beta or worse, search, the purchase process, customerservice, library sorting, ruleset clutter, homebrew tools, missing functions in all of the tools...
There is a huge list of things that have been unfinished and ignored on this site going back to launch.
DDB looks good simply because there is nothing to compare it to, it is no where near a finished product, and the jump to new features before finishing anything released. This site is held together with duct tape bailing wire and bubble gum compared to the Kindle experience.
Everything for the Kindle works smoothly, everything on DDB is barely out of Beta or worse, search, the purchase process, customerservice, library sorting, ruleset clutter, homebrew tools, missing functions in all of the tools...
There is a huge list of things that have been unfinished and ignored on this site going back to launch.
DDB looks good simply because there is nothing to compare it to, it is no where near a finished product, and the jump to new features before finishing anything released. This site is held together with duct tape bailing wire and bubble gum compared to the Kindle experience.
None of which is the point of this thread. The point is about pricing and not getting access for the digital product for buying the physical product.
You brought the tools and site into the discussion not me.
Back to the point with Kindle you own the electronic copy on any number of devices, on DDB you do not you are sold a book, and get a service that can go away at any time for any reason. They are not the same.
You brought the tools and site into the discussion not me.
Back to the point with Kindle you own the electronic copy on any number of devices, on DDB you do not you are sold a book, and get a service that can go away at any time for any reason. They are not the same.
Actually, Kindle licenses you the content, not sells, so it's really a 1:1 comparison on the shop front. And if Amazon decided to do away with that branch of their offerings, all of those would disappear just the same as if Hasbro shut down D&D Beyond. Try reading the terms of service of the thing you're wrongly using to compare to this.
Most companies do that. All Dungeon Crawl Classics Books are like that. Come with the online code to get inside the cover.
The issue with that system is that, not only does it destroy the resale value of the book for anyone wanting the online access, it also makes the book more vulnerable to being opened by scummy thieves in stores to get to the code, which then hurts the stores selling the books (as now they've lost the digital product for sale and won't be able to sell at full price). Given that most stores that sell these books are small places, not chains, it's impactful.
Most companies do that. All Dungeon Crawl Classics Books are like that. Come with the online code to get inside the cover.
The issue with that system is that, not only does it destroy the resale value of the book for anyone wanting the online access, it also makes the book more vulnerable to being opened by scummy thieves in stores to get to the code, which then hurts the stores selling the books (as now they've lost the digital product for sale and won't be able to sell at full price). Given that most stores that sell these books are small places, not chains, it's impactful.
And sealing the books also hurts those stores, as it denies them the curious "flip-through" sales. D&D is an imagination game - WotC wants people to open the book to a random page, see some evocative art, and be enticed to make a purchase.
The one thing I would have wanted is what they've done - physical/digital bundles. Unfortunately, those hurt the small stores too.
Most companies do that. All Dungeon Crawl Classics Books are like that. Come with the online code to get inside the cover.
The issue with that system is that, not only does it destroy the resale value of the book for anyone wanting the online access, it also makes the book more vulnerable to being opened by scummy thieves in stores to get to the code, which then hurts the stores selling the books (as now they've lost the digital product for sale and won't be able to sell at full price). Given that most stores that sell these books are small places, not chains, it's impactful.
And sealing the books also hurts those stores, as it denies them the curious "flip-through" sales. D&D is an imagination game - WotC wants people to open the book to a random page, see some evocative art, and be enticed to make a purchase.
The one thing I would have wanted is what they've done - physical/digital bundles. Unfortunately, those hurt the small stores too.
There's a way for them to do it right: Give stores a UPC that lets them sell the bundle at a physical POS system, so there's instant delivery and people still are buying the extra upsell that gets them digital content for less than the individual pricing. Stores could advertise that on the shelf, even, that it's an option, and it could print a redemption code on the receipt.
If WotC were smart, they'd implement something like that.
There's a way for them to do it right: Give stores a UPC that lets them sell the bundle at a physical POS system, so there's instant delivery and people still are buying the extra upsell that gets them digital content for less than the individual pricing. Stores could advertise that on the shelf, even, that it's an option, and it could print a redemption code on the receipt.
If WotC were smart, they'd implement something like that.
Not sure if low-tech hobby stores can all implement something like that. But a chain or a big-box deal like Target, sure.
There's a way for them to do it right: Give stores a UPC that lets them sell the bundle at a physical POS system, so there's instant delivery and people still are buying the extra upsell that gets them digital content for less than the individual pricing. Stores could advertise that on the shelf, even, that it's an option, and it could print a redemption code on the receipt.
If WotC were smart, they'd implement something like that.
Not sure if low-tech hobby stores can all implement something like that. But a chain or a big-box deal like Target, sure.
If they don't have that, WotC could also easily have a system for retailers that lets them put in and get a code for the customer. Would come out of an account tied to that store so WotC isn't just handing out free codes, but the system would be set up specifically for stores. Any store with an internet connection and a computer could get them that way. WotC has the resources to find a way, surely.
There's a way for them to do it right: Give stores a UPC that lets them sell the bundle at a physical POS system, so there's instant delivery and people still are buying the extra upsell that gets them digital content for less than the individual pricing. Stores could advertise that on the shelf, even, that it's an option, and it could print a redemption code on the receipt.
If WotC were smart, they'd implement something like that.
Not sure if low-tech hobby stores can all implement something like that. But a chain or a big-box deal like Target, sure.
That would still require a POS system that had the capability to create and track codes, and someone would have to set it up in each system. What about all the stores that don't use a POS system that supports it? What about Amazon, how do they offer it? If it's a sealed book with the code included, then a second supply chain has to be created for online retailers vs physical stores. What happens when there is an issue where a code doesn't work or the customer claims that the store didn't give them one? This really has been discussed to death on these forums, to the point where a specific thread was made. https://www.dndbeyond.com/forums/d-d-beyond-general/d-d-beyond-feedback/96069-hardcover-books-d-d-beyond-and-you-faq
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While of the three game systems I play, none of them offer free digital copies, and one of them offers no digital copies at all (because of their license with the House of the Mouse).
The problem with DnDBeyond content is that you do not buy anything here, everything you pay for you are renting for an unspecified amount of time and you have absolutely no rights of any kind whatsoever to it. It's not like you're buying the digital book you can download and keep in a Google Drive, you don't get a PDF of the Players Manual if you bought it here.
What you buy at DnDBeyond, you do not own. I find it strange that people make these analogies like "well when you buy a CD, where is my Vinyl cut?".. It's not the same thing. When you buy DnDBeyond content, you quite literally have acquired absolutely nothing. You have been granted temporary access to something. It's like buying CD and then one day, at some point this company is going to come to your house and take back the entire collection you have.
This is why when you buy a physical book, the content on DnDBeyond for that book should be free. You have already paid for an actual product. DnDbeyond digital content is not a product, you own nothing, its a rental service.
There was a reasonable disconnect when DnDBeyond was a third party, but it is now a Wizards of the Coast company. That excuse is kind of bs today.
Dndbeyond provides a service, not just a copy of material. It is software that does a bunch of math, accounting, record-keeping, and state-keeping for you (and your friends).
A better analogy would be saying that buying an album should let you attend a concert for free.
Also, much of this is moot given the way content-sharing and free accounts work on dndbeyond. One person (the DM, presumably) can pay for services and online books that the entire play group can partake of.
So, let’s address the reality behind this “books last forever, electronic access can be revoked at any time” rhetoric. I’ve had my account for a little over 4 years, had the ‘14 PHB, XGtE, and TCoE for most of that time, along with several others I’ve purchased since. I’ve been in at least 4 campaigns in that period, and spent a lot of time looking through those books. Now, maybe I’m just particularly hard on them, but in my experience 4 years of active duty tends to wear out books, and I’ve got no plans to slow down on D&D anytime soon. On the other hand, every book offered on Beyond remains accessible- even the two they stopped selling, assuming you own them or they’ve been shared with you. The old Core 3 are even still on the marketplace last I knew. It’s all there, with no wear or tear to speak of, and despite the doomsaying of “what if they decide to pull the plug tomorrow”, the reality is that WotC has given every indication that Beyond is a cornerstone of their ongoing business model, and they intend to carry this iteration of D&D forward for the foreseeable future. Call that 5 years conservatively, more likely 10+. And no, this is not just “what they say now”, it’s what the heads of a publicly traded company have openly said to their investors. That’s not a course you change on a whim if you like having capital in the bank.
So, we’re looking at probably another decade of service on our purchases at this point, barring a radical upset to the market/company. Out of curiosity, how many people here have a book that they regularly take down and page through that’s more than a decade old and in good condition? I’m gonna go out on a limb and guess “not many”; paper and glue only hold up so well. Whereas not only has this site held up for a good stretch, but it’s the stated intent of the company to keep the site going for at least that much longer. And, additionally, if you’re really that scared of losing content you paid for, you can take maybe half an hour at the outside to use any browser’s print function to save a PDF copy of that content. By any realistic measurement of the performance we’ve seen and the options available, if you’re actively using your books you can get at least as much of a lifetime from this “rental service” as you will from a hard copy.
This has been brought up so many times. Besides the fact that running this site isn't free, there is the issue of how do you prove that someone has purchased the book in a way that doesn't prevent 12 different people from using the same purchase and is still not prohibitively cost and/or labor intensive? On the other hand, if it only works with direct WotC/DDB purchases that hurts other vendors/LGS, etc. as well as potentially limiting availability of books through other outlets.
The point of physical novels not granting a license to the Kindle version was brought up. That one compares quite nicely.
Kindle also gives a ~50% Audible discount on books you buy or borrow on Kindle, offers a subscription with a huge catalog, and you actually own a digital copy of the things go you buy on both Audible and Kindle. Tells you a date they will stop supporting any hardware you buy and those are just the low hanging fruit when it. Ome to the differences.
DDB ≠ Kindle not even close.
DDB gives a ~67% discount on digital when you buy it bundled with physical, has their homebrew tools wide open to add content all you want (including official content without paying for digital at all), and a set of tools for building characters and rolling straight from the sheet on the website or app.
They're not the same service, but there's comparable points to be made. And trust me, I haven't been happy 100% either. Not saying they're without fault. But this is a weird point to get hung up on.
Everything for the Kindle works smoothly, everything on DDB is barely out of Beta or worse, search, the purchase process, customerservice, library sorting, ruleset clutter, homebrew tools, missing functions in all of the tools...
There is a huge list of things that have been unfinished and ignored on this site going back to launch.
DDB looks good simply because there is nothing to compare it to, it is no where near a finished product, and the jump to new features before finishing anything released. This site is held together with duct tape bailing wire and bubble gum compared to the Kindle experience.
None of which is the point of this thread. The point is about pricing and not getting access for the digital product for buying the physical product.
You brought the tools and site into the discussion not me.
Back to the point with Kindle you own the electronic copy on any number of devices, on DDB you do not you are sold a book, and get a service that can go away at any time for any reason. They are not the same.
Actually, Kindle licenses you the content, not sells, so it's really a 1:1 comparison on the shop front. And if Amazon decided to do away with that branch of their offerings, all of those would disappear just the same as if Hasbro shut down D&D Beyond. Try reading the terms of service of the thing you're wrongly using to compare to this.
I stand corrected it looks like they removed the download and transfer option a few weeks ago.
Most companies do that. All Dungeon Crawl Classics Books are like that. Come with the online code to get inside the cover.
The issue with that system is that, not only does it destroy the resale value of the book for anyone wanting the online access, it also makes the book more vulnerable to being opened by scummy thieves in stores to get to the code, which then hurts the stores selling the books (as now they've lost the digital product for sale and won't be able to sell at full price). Given that most stores that sell these books are small places, not chains, it's impactful.
And sealing the books also hurts those stores, as it denies them the curious "flip-through" sales. D&D is an imagination game - WotC wants people to open the book to a random page, see some evocative art, and be enticed to make a purchase.
The one thing I would have wanted is what they've done - physical/digital bundles. Unfortunately, those hurt the small stores too.
There's a way for them to do it right: Give stores a UPC that lets them sell the bundle at a physical POS system, so there's instant delivery and people still are buying the extra upsell that gets them digital content for less than the individual pricing. Stores could advertise that on the shelf, even, that it's an option, and it could print a redemption code on the receipt.
If WotC were smart, they'd implement something like that.
Not sure if low-tech hobby stores can all implement something like that. But a chain or a big-box deal like Target, sure.
If they don't have that, WotC could also easily have a system for retailers that lets them put in and get a code for the customer. Would come out of an account tied to that store so WotC isn't just handing out free codes, but the system would be set up specifically for stores. Any store with an internet connection and a computer could get them that way. WotC has the resources to find a way, surely.
That would still require a POS system that had the capability to create and track codes, and someone would have to set it up in each system. What about all the stores that don't use a POS system that supports it? What about Amazon, how do they offer it? If it's a sealed book with the code included, then a second supply chain has to be created for online retailers vs physical stores. What happens when there is an issue where a code doesn't work or the customer claims that the store didn't give them one? This really has been discussed to death on these forums, to the point where a specific thread was made. https://www.dndbeyond.com/forums/d-d-beyond-general/d-d-beyond-feedback/96069-hardcover-books-d-d-beyond-and-you-faq