I guess there's some baseline competency relative to the utter failure of the project as a whole, sure? Feels like damning with faint praise at that point. Look, I'm no torch and pitchfork guy, but I don't see any way Hasbro comes out of this looking good or smart. It definitely doesn't instill confidence for future investment in the game.
For reference, people who buy D&D products are not investors, they are customers. The actual investors (aka shareholders) seem fine with it (stock price has risen marginally since reports came out). But, regardless... does Project Sigil shutting down tell you anything that you didn't already assume to be the case? For me, it's a case of "a product I wasn't particularly interested in and didn't expect to succeed... failed."
Another copy and paste, sadly I don't have the source as I scraped it from another site with no source given other than "discord" not even the name of the dev, but it is positive and I thought it worth sharing.
"Here is what one Dev just posted on Discord:
As mentioned before, Sigil is not shutting down. I just now have more work to do. Hopefully with less meetings I can actually get more work done"
Could you get a screenshot of this from said dev? People are just taking gossip channels at their word and dancing on a grave prematurely.
As I stated in my initial post I do not have any sources it was a text post no images. I gave full disclosure in the initial post. There is far more information out since I made the post, I will gladly update my post if it becomes necessary but I have no plans to research it any further.
Some details and a leak from an anonymous employee. Still might all be bunk, but not looking good.
If that memo is correct it perfectly sums up the problem that Sigil always had: Hasbro higher ups don’t understand what a VTT is and thought they were making a video game. Just that line about “we’ve concluded that our aspirations for Sigil as a larger, standalone game with a distinct monetization path will not be realized” pretty much seals its fate, it was never going to be that because thats not what a VTT is
Another copy and paste, sadly I don't have the source as I scraped it from another site with no source given other than "discord" not even the name of the dev, but it is positive and I thought it worth sharing.
"Here is what one Dev just posted on Discord:
As mentioned before, Sigil is not shutting down. I just now have more work to do. Hopefully with less meetings I can actually get more work done"
Could you get a screenshot of this from said dev? People are just taking gossip channels at their word and dancing on a grave prematurely.
As I stated in my initial post I do not have any sources it was a text post no images. I gave full disclosure in the initial post. There is far more information out since I made the post, I will gladly update my post if it becomes necessary but I have no plans to research it any further.
All I ask is a screenshot of said text post so people can not take Nerd Immersion, Dungeons & Discourse, & DND Shorts, as well as other gossip outlets, at their word blindly. Please show the dev's screenname so they can be verified as an actual employee.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
DM, player & homebrewer(Current homebrew project is an unofficial conversion of SBURB/SGRUB from Homestuck into DND 5e)
Once made Maxwell's Silver Hammer come down upon Strahd's head to make sure he was dead.
Always study & sharpen philosophical razors. They save a lot of trouble.
If that memo is correct it perfectly sums up the problem that Sigil always had: Hasbro higher ups don’t understand what a VTT is and thought they were making a video game. Just that line about “we’ve concluded that our aspirations for Sigil as a larger, standalone game with a distinct monetization path will not be realized” pretty much seals its fate, it was never going to be that because thats not what a VTT is
There's absolutely a monetization path -- it's by selling maps, kits, and 3d models. Tabletop Simulator is classed as a 'game'. The question is whether that path is wide enough to support a significant dev team, and they concluded that the answer was no. I would note that "tabletop simulator, only better" would certainly be a valuable thing for Hasbro to have, as it wouldn't just be a D&D platform, it would be a platform for every boardgame Hasbro produces, but it's also quite hard to develop and probably requires a clearer vision than Hasbro had.
If that memo is correct it perfectly sums up the problem that Sigil always had: Hasbro higher ups don’t understand what a VTT is and thought they were making a video game. Just that line about “we’ve concluded that our aspirations for Sigil as a larger, standalone game with a distinct monetization path will not be realized” pretty much seals its fate, it was never going to be that because thats not what a VTT is
There's absolutely a monetization path -- it's by selling maps, kits, and 3d models. Tabletop Simulator is classed as a 'game'. The question is whether that path is wide enough to support a significant dev team, and they concluded that the answer was no. I would note that "tabletop simulator, only better" would certainly be a valuable thing for Hasbro to have, as it wouldn't just be a D&D platform, it would be a platform for every boardgame Hasbro produces, but it's also quite hard to develop and probably requires a clearer vision than Hasbro had.
If people thought the service was worth it, sure, but imo this was always a toss of the dice. People are used to working off a 2D paradigm, and there’s already enough a lot of assets out there for that. They’d have needed a big splash and low entry cost to draw interest, and then hope it took and people started consistently buying in.
I guess there's some baseline competency relative to the utter failure of the project as a whole, sure? Feels like damning with faint praise at that point. Look, I'm no torch and pitchfork guy, but I don't see any way Hasbro comes out of this looking good or smart. It definitely doesn't instill confidence for future investment in the game.
For reference, people who buy D&D products are not investors, they are customers. The actual investors (aka shareholders) seem fine with it (stock price has risen marginally since reports came out). But, regardless... does Project Sigil shutting down tell you anything that you didn't already assume to be the case? For me, it's a case of "a product I wasn't particularly interested in and didn't expect to succeed... failed."
It's not just that it failed, but how (reportedly) it failed. If the high ups don't know or care about what a dev team is trying to do, and a dev team can't even get info they need to try to make their project work, that doesn't bode well for future projects if that's the MO that can be expected from the company. It would be one thing if they released a thing and it flopped; that happens all the time. But this was woefully mismanaged from the jump, pushed out in this weird half-baked form, then left almost completely unsupported. This lack of vision and support from Hasbro is just bad. The trust that they'll properly manage and implement the next project, even if it's a much better idea, is eroded.
I mean, it should have been eroded after Gleemax. Beyond has only been so successful because they partnered with Curse (which sold to Twitch, which sold to Fandom, which sold to Wizards) up front and Adam Bradford does know how to deliver something like this.
Another copy and paste, sadly I don't have the source as I scraped it from another site with no source given other than "discord" not even the name of the dev, but it is positive and I thought it worth sharing.
"Here is what one Dev just posted on Discord:
As mentioned before, Sigil is not shutting down. I just now have more work to do. Hopefully with less meetings I can actually get more work done"
Could you get a screenshot of this from said dev? People are just taking gossip channels at their word and dancing on a grave prematurely.
As I stated in my initial post I do not have any sources it was a text post no images. I gave full disclosure in the initial post. There is far more information out since I made the post, I will gladly update my post if it becomes necessary but I have no plans to research it any further.
All I ask is a screenshot of said text post so people can not take Nerd Immersion, Dungeons & Discourse, & DND Shorts, as well as other gossip outlets, at their word blindly. Please show the dev's screenname so they can be verified as an actual employee.
They already basically said the screenshot would look like the post made. What would a picture of the text that was posted settle?
I think it was cool they posted some new info with a good spin, even though it couldn't be properly documented, on the thread they started.
I mean, it should have been eroded after Gleemax. Beyond has only been so successful because they partnered with Curse (which sold to Twitch, which sold to Fandom, which sold to Wizards) up front and Adam Bradford does know how to deliver something like this.
I do not think that is overly fair - D&D Insider, 4e’s digital tools, were made by Wizards and were quite well done. In terms of search functionality, Insider was vastly superior to Beyond - frankly, Beyond’s search and filter system is a tad embarrassing. Plus, Insider at least had all the rules covered within its system - Beyond has been missing core functionalities of the rules since Curse owned it. So, I am not convinced Curse did a better job than Wizards - comparing Wizards independent foray into digital sourcebooks and character builder tools and Curse’s, Wizards simply did better in a lot of key elements.
Sigil erodes confidence some in Wizards’ skill - but mostly in individuals. Either managers who did not know what they wanted, developers who did what developers often do, try to make something far more complicated than the project demands (both running up development costs and alienating customers with heavy system requirements), or, most likely, both - with each side blaming the other and neither taking credit for their own blame. People are a fixable problem, and Wizards might not have the most trust right now, but they have enough history that they probably can win some of it back easily enough.
Wizards has done little but erode trust and confidence since purchasing DDB. They have made the entire site harder to use, removed things that people wanted and flat out crawfished on marketing promises. They are not winning back trust they are chasing customers off.
Wizards has done little but erode trust and confidence since purchasing DDB. They have made the entire site harder to use, removed things that people wanted and flat out crawfished on marketing promises. They are not winning back trust they are chasing customers off.
I could be wrong but most things would be exactly the same regardless of wotc acquiring ddb. I honestly struggle to think of anything that would be different besides negatives...
I mean, it should have been eroded after Gleemax. Beyond has only been so successful because they partnered with Curse (which sold to Twitch, which sold to Fandom, which sold to Wizards) up front and Adam Bradford does know how to deliver something like this.
I do not think that is overly fair - D&D Insider, 4e’s digital tools, were made by Wizards and were quite well done. In terms of search functionality, Insider was vastly superior to Beyond - frankly, Beyond’s search and filter system is a tad embarrassing. Plus, Insider at least had all the rules covered within its system - Beyond has been missing core functionalities of the rules since Curse owned it. So, I am not convinced Curse did a better job than Wizards - comparing Wizards independent foray into digital sourcebooks and character builder tools and Curse’s, Wizards simply did better in a lot of key elements.
Sigil erodes confidence some in Wizards’ skill - but mostly in individuals. Either managers who did not know what they wanted, developers who did what developers often do, try to make something far more complicated than the project demands (both running up development costs and alienating customers with heavy system requirements), or, most likely, both - with each side blaming the other and neither taking credit for their own blame. People are a fixable problem, and Wizards might not have the most trust right now, but they have enough history that they probably can win some of it back easily enough.
Plus, this was a peripheral product in the first place. Sure, it'd have been cool to see what a good 3D VTT would be like, but at the end of the day it's no skin off our ability to play D&D if this foray fell through. Trying to spin this into some greater "Wizards is on their inevitable decline" narrative is somewhere between premature and specious- they made a stab at diversifying their offerings and it fell through. They haven't cut their plans for a Netflix series, so there's still money in the bank for these side ventures. Was this a positive? Of course not. Is it anything close to a vital wound to the company. Also a definite "nope" by all signs.
I mean, it should have been eroded after Gleemax. Beyond has only been so successful because they partnered with Curse (which sold to Twitch, which sold to Fandom, which sold to Wizards) up front and Adam Bradford does know how to deliver something like this.
I do not think that is overly fair - D&D Insider, 4e’s digital tools, were made by Wizards and were quite well done. In terms of search functionality, Insider was vastly superior to Beyond - frankly, Beyond’s search and filter system is a tad embarrassing. Plus, Insider at least had all the rules covered within its system - Beyond has been missing core functionalities of the rules since Curse owned it. So, I am not convinced Curse did a better job than Wizards - comparing Wizards independent foray into digital sourcebooks and character builder tools and Curse’s, Wizards simply did better in a lot of key elements.
Sigil erodes confidence some in Wizards’ skill - but mostly in individuals. Either managers who did not know what they wanted, developers who did what developers often do, try to make something far more complicated than the project demands (both running up development costs and alienating customers with heavy system requirements), or, most likely, both - with each side blaming the other and neither taking credit for their own blame. People are a fixable problem, and Wizards might not have the most trust right now, but they have enough history that they probably can win some of it back easily enough.
Plus, this was a peripheral product in the first place. Sure, it'd have been cool to see what a good 3D VTT would be like, but at the end of the day it's no skin off our ability to play D&D if this foray fell through. Trying to spin this into some greater "Wizards is on their inevitable decline" narrative is somewhere between premature and specious- they made a stab at diversifying their offerings and it fell through. They haven't cut their plans for a Netflix series, so there's still money in the bank for these side ventures. Was this a positive? Of course not. Is it anything close to a vital wound to the company. Also a definite "nope" by all signs.
Personally think sigil has a decent foundation to build upon and has alot of potential given the chance, could see it stepping over the competition out there once people overcome the initial learning curve, some fine tuning and more content (if it's allowed to grow past its infancy - not even a year old yet).
Wizards has done little but erode trust and confidence since purchasing DDB. They have made the entire site harder to use, removed things that people wanted and flat out crawfished on marketing promises. They are not winning back trust they are chasing customers off.
I could be wrong but most things would be exactly the same regardless of wotc acquiring ddb. I honestly struggle to think of anything that would be different besides negatives...
No project sigil or maps
Less 3rd party content
No physical/digital options
Are they negatives, in the sense we would be worse off without them?
There are plenty of superior options to sigil and maps both free and paid.
There was 3rd party content before wotc bought DDB.
The bundle discounts stacking with sales and piecemeal credits towards full book purchases combined with shopping for sales or buying used books eclipsed the current physical digital bundle pricing.
Couple that with the dual ruleset clutter imposed in the character builder that other platforms aren't subject too it isn't hard to fathom wotc purchasing DDB has, to date, been a net loss for DDB users.
I see your examples as negatives (except the maps tool it is a definite plus, but as stated there are other options that do as good or better job for the same or less money depending on whether you pay a subscription on DDB for other things or not, but if the DM doesn't have a subscription then they can't use the tool regardless of another player having a subscription for content sharing, but it is a solid tool and absolutely adds value to a subscription for a DM!) as so far as they all have detracted from the user experience compared to what we had before wotc bought DDB.
While we will never know where DDB would be now if wotc hadn't bought the site, I would gladly take what we had over what we have.
Wizards has done little but erode trust and confidence since purchasing DDB. They have made the entire site harder to use, removed things that people wanted and flat out crawfished on marketing promises. They are not winning back trust they are chasing customers off.
I could be wrong but most things would be exactly the same regardless of wotc acquiring ddb. I honestly struggle to think of anything that would be different besides negatives...
No project sigil or maps
Less 3rd party content
No physical/digital options
Are they negatives, in the sense we would be worse off without them?
There are plenty of superior options to sigil and maps both free and paid.
There was 3rd party content before wotc bought DDB.
The bundle discounts stacking with sales and piecemeal credits towards full book purchases combined with shopping for sales or buying used books eclipsed the current physical digital bundle pricing.
Couple that with the dual ruleset clutter imposed in the character builder that other platforms aren't subject too it isn't hard to fathom wotc purchasing DDB has, to date, been a net loss for DDB users.
I see your examples as negatives as so far as they all have detracted from the user experience compared to what we had before wotc bought DDB.
While we will never know where DDB would be now if wotc hadn't bought the site, I would gladly take what we had over what we have.
why does it matter that there are other VTTs out there, they all do the same thing to varying degrees and usefulness depends on what an individual is looking for, the learning curve and how familiar they get with the VTT - nothing prevents sigil and maps VTT from potentially growing to a point where it outclasses the others out there... its just takes time
believe the "clutter" as you put it is due to taking over a website that had implementation issues already present along with trying to hold onto what has already been implemented while adding in new material without disrupting peoples experiences to much - its much easier to code from scratch then code around someone elses code
yes there was a small amount (countable on one hand) of it however all these came after wotc acquired ddb... considerably more then beforehand
obojima - a few days ago
helianas guide - mar 2025
search of the smugglers secrets - feb 2025
humblewood tales - jan 2025
griffons saddlebag - dec 2024
illrigger - nov 2024
lord of the rings - nov 2024
book of ebon tides - aug 2024
tales from the shadows - aug 2024
Grim Hollow: player pack - jun 2024
where evil lives - may 2024
flee mortals - may 2024
tome of beasts - mar 2024
humblewood - feb 2024
dungeons of drakkenheim - dec 2023
Grim Hollow: Lairs of Etharis - nov 2023
lightning keep - sep 2023
tal'dorei campaign setting reborn - aug 2023
guess we are just in two separate boats because i see it as positives rather then negatives - it all comes down to the individual opinion and preferences
It is quite easy to say the things you like wouldn't have been on the site if wotc hadn't bought DDB, but there is a clear and documented history of 3pp content available on DDB well before wotc bought and screwed up the site.
The clutter(forcing 24 rules on users without a toggle to simplify I. E., preserve the UI for those not quite ready to adopt the "new 24 rule sets aka inferior by many standards)is real. The other VTT's matter simply because what DDB brings to the table is simply not worth what was lost for the inferior options that wotc has "added" to DDB compared to what they have removed. The physical/digital bundles pale incomparison to the 3 digital bundles without even considering the deals to be found on physical books. Heck the current physical/digital bundles are not hard to beat if you have any patience to wait for sales that are available at least 4 times a year.
Why didn't wotc address the flaws on the site(they claimed they would address) that have been present since the site launched instead of doubling down on compounding them to further hamper the user experience rather than addressing them and making the site the pinnacle they claim it to be?
3pp content(which likely woud have been available regardless) and maps(which is questionably as good as the free version of OwlbearRodeo) aside do you genuinely feel DDB is better now than it was before wotc acquired it, be honest.
DDB was the best on-boarding experience for new players, now it is a slow strangle on the game.
Wotc is a wet blanket and a fan simultaniously blowing and sucking the life out of DDB, a slow and cruel death to a once great site.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
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For reference, people who buy D&D products are not investors, they are customers. The actual investors (aka shareholders) seem fine with it (stock price has risen marginally since reports came out). But, regardless... does Project Sigil shutting down tell you anything that you didn't already assume to be the case? For me, it's a case of "a product I wasn't particularly interested in and didn't expect to succeed... failed."
As I stated in my initial post I do not have any sources it was a text post no images. I gave full disclosure in the initial post. There is far more information out since I made the post, I will gladly update my post if it becomes necessary but I have no plans to research it any further.
If that memo is correct it perfectly sums up the problem that Sigil always had: Hasbro higher ups don’t understand what a VTT is and thought they were making a video game. Just that line about “we’ve concluded that our aspirations for Sigil as a larger, standalone game with a distinct monetization path will not be realized” pretty much seals its fate, it was never going to be that because thats not what a VTT is
All I ask is a screenshot of said text post so people can not take Nerd Immersion, Dungeons & Discourse, & DND Shorts, as well as other gossip outlets, at their word blindly. Please show the dev's screenname so they can be verified as an actual employee.
DM, player & homebrewer(Current homebrew project is an unofficial conversion of SBURB/SGRUB from Homestuck into DND 5e)
Once made Maxwell's Silver Hammer come down upon Strahd's head to make sure he was dead.
Always study & sharpen philosophical razors. They save a lot of trouble.
There's absolutely a monetization path -- it's by selling maps, kits, and 3d models. Tabletop Simulator is classed as a 'game'. The question is whether that path is wide enough to support a significant dev team, and they concluded that the answer was no. I would note that "tabletop simulator, only better" would certainly be a valuable thing for Hasbro to have, as it wouldn't just be a D&D platform, it would be a platform for every boardgame Hasbro produces, but it's also quite hard to develop and probably requires a clearer vision than Hasbro had.
If people thought the service was worth it, sure, but imo this was always a toss of the dice. People are used to working off a 2D paradigm, and there’s already enough a lot of assets out there for that. They’d have needed a big splash and low entry cost to draw interest, and then hope it took and people started consistently buying in.
It's not just that it failed, but how (reportedly) it failed. If the high ups don't know or care about what a dev team is trying to do, and a dev team can't even get info they need to try to make their project work, that doesn't bode well for future projects if that's the MO that can be expected from the company. It would be one thing if they released a thing and it flopped; that happens all the time. But this was woefully mismanaged from the jump, pushed out in this weird half-baked form, then left almost completely unsupported. This lack of vision and support from Hasbro is just bad. The trust that they'll properly manage and implement the next project, even if it's a much better idea, is eroded.
I mean, it should have been eroded after Gleemax. Beyond has only been so successful because they partnered with Curse (which sold to Twitch, which sold to Fandom, which sold to Wizards) up front and Adam Bradford does know how to deliver something like this.
Hasbro isn't a software company. I didn't trust them to properly manage and implement a software project in the first place.
They already basically said the screenshot would look like the post made. What would a picture of the text that was posted settle?
I think it was cool they posted some new info with a good spin, even though it couldn't be properly documented, on the thread they started.
I do not think that is overly fair - D&D Insider, 4e’s digital tools, were made by Wizards and were quite well done. In terms of search functionality, Insider was vastly superior to Beyond - frankly, Beyond’s search and filter system is a tad embarrassing. Plus, Insider at least had all the rules covered within its system - Beyond has been missing core functionalities of the rules since Curse owned it. So, I am not convinced Curse did a better job than Wizards - comparing Wizards independent foray into digital sourcebooks and character builder tools and Curse’s, Wizards simply did better in a lot of key elements.
Sigil erodes confidence some in Wizards’ skill - but mostly in individuals. Either managers who did not know what they wanted, developers who did what developers often do, try to make something far more complicated than the project demands (both running up development costs and alienating customers with heavy system requirements), or, most likely, both - with each side blaming the other and neither taking credit for their own blame. People are a fixable problem, and Wizards might not have the most trust right now, but they have enough history that they probably can win some of it back easily enough.
Wizards has done little but erode trust and confidence since purchasing DDB. They have made the entire site harder to use, removed things that people wanted and flat out crawfished on marketing promises. They are not winning back trust they are chasing customers off.
Hunting for maps was/is my least favorite part of DMing. I enjoyed sigil and thought it had real potential. Sucks.
We used the maps tool here on DDB for a while it was pretty cool. Now we are back to physical maps at the table.
I could be wrong but most things would be exactly the same regardless of wotc acquiring ddb. I honestly struggle to think of anything that would be different besides negatives...
Plus, this was a peripheral product in the first place. Sure, it'd have been cool to see what a good 3D VTT would be like, but at the end of the day it's no skin off our ability to play D&D if this foray fell through. Trying to spin this into some greater "Wizards is on their inevitable decline" narrative is somewhere between premature and specious- they made a stab at diversifying their offerings and it fell through. They haven't cut their plans for a Netflix series, so there's still money in the bank for these side ventures. Was this a positive? Of course not. Is it anything close to a vital wound to the company. Also a definite "nope" by all signs.
Personally think sigil has a decent foundation to build upon and has alot of potential given the chance, could see it stepping over the competition out there once people overcome the initial learning curve, some fine tuning and more content (if it's allowed to grow past its infancy - not even a year old yet).
Are they negatives, in the sense we would be worse off without them?
There are plenty of superior options to sigil and maps both free and paid.
There was 3rd party content before wotc bought DDB.
The bundle discounts stacking with sales and piecemeal credits towards full book purchases combined with shopping for sales or buying used books eclipsed the current physical digital bundle pricing.
Couple that with the dual ruleset clutter imposed in the character builder that other platforms aren't subject too it isn't hard to fathom wotc purchasing DDB has, to date, been a net loss for DDB users.
I see your examples as negatives (except the maps tool it is a definite plus, but as stated there are other options that do as good or better job for the same or less money depending on whether you pay a subscription on DDB for other things or not, but if the DM doesn't have a subscription then they can't use the tool regardless of another player having a subscription for content sharing, but it is a solid tool and absolutely adds value to a subscription for a DM!) as so far as they all have detracted from the user experience compared to what we had before wotc bought DDB.
While we will never know where DDB would be now if wotc hadn't bought the site, I would gladly take what we had over what we have.
why does it matter that there are other VTTs out there, they all do the same thing to varying degrees and usefulness depends on what an individual is looking for, the learning curve and how familiar they get with the VTT - nothing prevents sigil and maps VTT from potentially growing to a point where it outclasses the others out there... its just takes time
believe the "clutter" as you put it is due to taking over a website that had implementation issues already present along with trying to hold onto what has already been implemented while adding in new material without disrupting peoples experiences to much - its much easier to code from scratch then code around someone elses code
yes there was a small amount (countable on one hand) of it however all these came after wotc acquired ddb... considerably more then beforehand
guess we are just in two separate boats because i see it as positives rather then negatives - it all comes down to the individual opinion and preferences
It is quite easy to say the things you like wouldn't have been on the site if wotc hadn't bought DDB, but there is a clear and documented history of 3pp content available on DDB well before wotc bought and screwed up the site.
The clutter(forcing 24 rules on users without a toggle to simplify I. E., preserve the UI for those not quite ready to adopt the "new 24 rule sets aka inferior by many standards)is real. The other VTT's matter simply because what DDB brings to the table is simply not worth what was lost for the inferior options that wotc has "added" to DDB compared to what they have removed. The physical/digital bundles pale incomparison to the 3 digital bundles without even considering the deals to be found on physical books. Heck the current physical/digital bundles are not hard to beat if you have any patience to wait for sales that are available at least 4 times a year.
Why didn't wotc address the flaws on the site(they claimed they would address) that have been present since the site launched instead of doubling down on compounding them to further hamper the user experience rather than addressing them and making the site the pinnacle they claim it to be?
3pp content(which likely woud have been available regardless) and maps(which is questionably as good as the free version of OwlbearRodeo) aside do you genuinely feel DDB is better now than it was before wotc acquired it, be honest.
DDB was the best on-boarding experience for new players, now it is a slow strangle on the game.
Wotc is a wet blanket and a fan simultaniously blowing and sucking the life out of DDB, a slow and cruel death to a once great site.