As an anthology of "Drop into anything" adventures, Tier 4 doesn't make sense, because we know the vast majority of campaigns don't get past about 15th level. WOTC knows it better than us, because they have all our characters in their database. So "the demand from players" isn't there, because players aren't buying Dragon Delves. Dungeon Masters are. And they're not running high level campaigns.
Besides, they made the Vecna Eve of Ruin campaign for high level play. I wonder how well that sold...
As an anthology of "Drop into anything" adventures, Tier 4 doesn't make sense, because we know the vast majority of campaigns don't get past about 15th level. WOTC knows it better than us, because they have all our characters in their database. So "the demand from players" isn't there, because players aren't buying Dragon Delves. Dungeon Masters are. And they're not running high level campaigns.
Besides, they made the Vecna Eve of Ruin campaign for high level play. I wonder how well that sold...
On multiple occasions, Wizards has said this line of reasoning is wrong and harmful for the game. They have acknowledged that, while it is true most campaigns do not reach epic levels, a sufficient number of them do to justify including content for epic levels in products. I believe it was Crawford who once said in a video interview that they regularly fall into the trap of thinking just as you do - and that they are hurting their players by doing so. It has also been acknowledged that their failure to create content and guidance on epic play is a contributing factor as to why many campaigns do not reach epic play - one reason for campaign burnout is that many people simply run out of material they feel comfortable using.
It is pretty clear Wizards had the opportunity to do epic level content - dragons are, after all, a creature type that goes into epic levels. And, once again, they decided to listen to the reasoning you laid out - even though they have said doing so is harmful for the game and a failure in design on their part. By Wizards’ own admission, this exact type of reasoning is an harmful excuse, not a justification.
The Vecna argument is also not congruent - even if it sold poorly, anthology adventures are fundamentally different, since they do not require you to commit to a full campaign up to their maximum level. They are the perfect place to release some epic level content, since the DM purchasers can then use them for whatever level they want. They remain useful even if the campaign will never reach epic tiers.
WotC did release Chains of Asmodeus and that was well received. For some reason, though, they didn't really promote it or even sell it on dndbeyond.
Chains was kind of an odd one because it was official WotC but was also a charity release with proceeds going to Extra Life so I think that restricted how much effort they were willing to put behind it
They've put the other Extra Life charity stuff on DDB.
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If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
Yeah but wasn't that years after the initial release? At least for the ones released post WotC buy out? Not sure if there's some time limit on it that means we might still get Chains on here in the future but they have to wait
As an anthology of "Drop into anything" adventures, Tier 4 doesn't make sense, because we know the vast majority of campaigns don't get past about 15th level. WOTC knows it better than us, because they have all our characters in their database. So "the demand from players" isn't there, because players aren't buying Dragon Delves. Dungeon Masters are. And they're not running high level campaigns.
Besides, they made the Vecna Eve of Ruin campaign for high level play. I wonder how well that sold...
On multiple occasions, Wizards has said this line of reasoning is wrong and harmful for the game. They have acknowledged that, while it is true most campaigns do not reach epic levels, a sufficient number of them do to justify including content for epic levels in products. I believe it was Crawford who once said in a video interview that they regularly fall into the trap of thinking just as you do - and that they are hurting their players by doing so. It has also been acknowledged that their failure to create content and guidance on epic play is a contributing factor as to why many campaigns do not reach epic play - one reason for campaign burnout is that many people simply run out of material they feel comfortable using.
It is pretty clear Wizards had the opportunity to do epic level content - dragons are, after all, a creature type that goes into epic levels. And, once again, they decided to listen to the reasoning you laid out - even though they have said doing so is harmful for the game and a failure in design on their part. By Wizards’ own admission, this exact type of reasoning is an harmful excuse, not a justification.
The Vecna argument is also not congruent - even if it sold poorly, anthology adventures are fundamentally different, since they do not require you to commit to a full campaign up to their maximum level. They are the perfect place to release some epic level content, since the DM purchasers can then use them for whatever level they want. They remain useful even if the campaign will never reach epic tiers.
Agreed. They also said in one of their promotional videos leading up to the release of 2024 that part of their redesign of the rules was an intentional effort to get more people playing at upper tiers. That would suggest the intention to release adventures to support play at those levels. There haven't been many adventures released yet, but I would have wanted Dragon Delves to hit that note because it is one of the iconic monsters. I'm not upset over it, but I feel it is a missed opportunity and them not doing it (and taking preorder bonuses away from digital-only buyers like me) ended up saving me some money in the end. I also missed out on the disappointment over the reused art.
I don't know how well Eve of Ruin sold. I bought it but have not yet played it. Vecna is cool and EoR seems like a fun adventure to me. I hope to run it or play it one day (shrugs). From what I see from reviews online though, the maps are poor, the fights are easy, and the plot too simple to figure out. Nothing that would suggest that high level adventures are a bad idea. Not a single complaint can be found on it for having an adventure that runs up to level 20. Just because EoR may have done poorly (and no evidence has been submitted here to support this), does not mean that people do not want to play high level adventures. I think the criticisms I found are valid reasons to not buy the adventure module and I also agree that EoR and DD are fundamentally different and should not be weighed against each other because of those differences. It's also a little premature to be planting flags in the earth on how well DD is going to sell because it only goes up to level 12...
DMs are not the only people who buy adventures either. They are the ones who run it. It is a bit of a logical leap to assume that a DM is the only one buying adventures. Players sometimes buy adventures that they want their DMs to run. I certainly have. Having money is not a requisite for being a DM. It is more accurate to say DMs often are the ones who buy the adventures. It is also inaccurate to say that DMs do not run high level adventures. I think it is safer to say that historically, games fall apart before they can reach those levels, not because interest in high-level games is low. Games that start in the mid tier have better odds of lasting until the upper tiers because there is not enough time for life to get in the way. There are a lot of assumptions being made here in the name of protecting sacred cows.
I will say though, that if Dragon Delves does it for you, then more power to you. 'The customer is always right, in matters of taste' and this might just be your favorite meal.
As an anthology of "Drop into anything" adventures, Tier 4 doesn't make sense, because we know the vast majority of campaigns don't get past about 15th level.
This is a book about dragons, the archetypical high level threat. Of the 25 CR 20+ monsters in the monster manual, 10 of them are dragons. Not having ancient dragons is just a failure.
Agreed - however, 1) certainly having nothing past level 12 was a disappointment and a mistake. Even a “less than perfect” upper tier 3 and tier 4 adventures should have been there. They could also have used gem dragons or one of the other missing dragons for those adventures with stat blocks and info as appendixes for the extra content others (and I) would have liked. 2) The artwork history was interesting and fun but there really should have been some lore about each dragon type - even if much was a rehash. 3) the no new items/subclasses - this was an anthology of quick adventures why would/should they be introing either? Really a nonstarter argument I. My opinion. 4) The big however - For what it is - an anthology af short drop in adventures featuring a dragon in a lair its actually good. It has enough background and info to run the adventure easily (we are in the middle of the first right now). They do appear to take only 1-3 sessions (we rolled up characters and got through most of part 1 of the first adventure in session 1 and should complete it next week or, at worst, the following week. The settings are both detailed enough for the adventure play and vague enough to be dropped into any campaign ( pretty much). If you want to take out the dragon of the ad ensure and drop in your own ( of the same type) that should be easy enough. I can also see the possibility of turning the whole anthology into a campaign - and there are actually some suggestions for that in the intro material.
Overall, once you get past the disappointments our expectations created it is not a bad book - a bit expensive to get the hardcopy and digital versions but not horribly overpriced.
5) The whole side discussion on creating high level campaigns - yes they can be a nightmare, but that is really a problem of our own creation. What they should be is barely survivable not barely adequate challenges for any random group of 4 tier 4+ PCs. Especially dragon lairs. By the time a dragon becomes ancient it’s faced and destroyed hundreds if not thousands of adventuring parties, dozens of tier 2f3 parties and added layers of defenses to its lair to handle the common things like teleports in, flying/levitating etc. to some extent that lair is really the bbeg not the dragon. If it’s not designed with a roughly 50% kill rate it’s probably not strong enough (by this time parties have ways to deal with dieing PCs as well). No you can’t plan for very contingency and every team mix but you can plan to eliminate or reduce all/most common problematic things (from the dragon’s view point) and you should. Fighting the same dragon out in the open should be far easier than taking it on along with its lair. Should WotC create a couple? Of course, but such a lair is not going to be a 2 night drop in adventure and given the nature of this volume I understand why it wasn’t there. What I would love to see (but probably never will) is an anthology that takes those hard to create adventures and does them (well) - something like 2-3 tier 3/4+ dragon lairs, 3 different real wilderness adventures ( a l1, L5/6, and L11/12 each in a different environment) and maybe a real underwater adventure lasting more than 24 hours.
Hard not to feel like the powers that be think this release is a bit underwhelming considering it’s now out but the “buy me quick” banner along the top is still promoting Crooked Moon which has been out for weeks
Hard not to feel like the powers that be think this release is a bit underwhelming considering it’s now out but the “buy me quick” banner along the top is still promoting Crooked Moon which has been out for weeks
Or the community overhyped a release like they always do, blowing things out of proportion expectation-wise, then pretend to be shocked when all of their collective headcanon isn't followed to the letter, rinse & repeat.
Not every release should be expected to be a mind-blowing high-stakes DM & player tool-packed powderkeg of non-stop epicness.
& not every release is for the internet.
I have my criticisms of what the book actually is, but they're minor, because I kept my expectations in check.
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DM, player & homebrewer(Current homebrew project is an unofficial conversion of SBURB/SGRUB from Homestuck into DND 5e)
Once made Maxwell's Silver Hammer come down upon Strahd's head to make sure he was dead.
Always study & sharpen philosophical razors. They save a lot of trouble.
It is really quite simple do not pre-order something you are unable to return if it doesn't meet your expectations. You not only do not own anything paid for on this site, but there are absolutely no returns allowed. Vegas has better odds than giving this site any money
Hard not to feel like the powers that be think this release is a bit underwhelming considering it’s now out but the “buy me quick” banner along the top is still promoting Crooked Moon which has been out for weeks
Or the community overhyped a release like they always do, blowing things out of proportion expectation-wise, then pretend to be shocked when all of their collective headcanon isn't followed to the letter, rinse & repeat.
Not every release should be expected to be a mind-blowing high-stakes DM & player tool-packed powderkeg of non-stop epicness.
& not every release is for the internet.
I have my criticisms of what the book actually is, but they're minor, because I kept my expectations in check.
While the pragmatic part of me agrees, in principle, I feel the need to disagree with the spirit of this comment.
We’re all here because we care about this hobby. Some of us can eke out a living playing TTRPGs, but a vast majority of us play the game for free out of the love and joy we get from it.
There are so many excellent systems that have wonderful content being released for them. (Ex. Call of Cthulhu, Mothership, Delta Green, Blades in the Dark, Alice is Missing, Shadowdark, Mork Borg, etc.)
The more and more common idea that we should expect mediocrity for a majority of releases from the “greatest role-playing game” is disappointing and alarming. We should demand better for D&D. Otherwise, it will continue to be gutted by the goal of money instead of customer satisfaction.
Hard not to feel like the powers that be think this release is a bit underwhelming considering it’s now out but the “buy me quick” banner along the top is still promoting Crooked Moon which has been out for weeks
What's much more likely is that the banner script is borked and showing the wrong thing. I would assume this based on the fact I've dismissed that banner multiple times which usually only happens when that script has gone wrong.
Hard not to feel like the powers that be think this release is a bit underwhelming considering it’s now out but the “buy me quick” banner along the top is still promoting Crooked Moon which has been out for weeks
Or the community overhyped a release like they always do, blowing things out of proportion expectation-wise, then pretend to be shocked when all of their collective headcanon isn't followed to the letter, rinse & repeat.
Not every release should be expected to be a mind-blowing high-stakes DM & player tool-packed powderkeg of non-stop epicness.
& not every release is for the internet.
I have my criticisms of what the book actually is, but they're minor, because I kept my expectations in check.
While the pragmatic part of me agrees, in principle I feel the need to disagree with the spirit of this comment.
We’re all here because we care about this hobby. Some of us can eke out a living playing TTRPGs but a vast majority of us play the game for free out of the love and joy we get from it.
There are so many excellent systems that have wonderful content being released for them. (Ex. Call of Cthulhu, Mothership, Delta Green, Blades in the Dark, Alice is Missing, Shadowdark, Mork Borg, etc.)
The more and more common idea that would should expect mediocrity for a majority of releases from the “greatest role playing game” is disappointing and alarming. We should demand better for D&D. Otherwise it will continue to be gutted by the goal of money instead of customer satisfaction.
I wrote a massive reply delving into this, then realised I'd be detailing the thread.
In short though, I think Hasbro/WotC has gone for quantity and just getting stuff out over knocking things out of the park. Their tempo is substantially higher than any of the three other games I play. It's just part of the paradigm for 5e - just get stuff out there, and people will buy it. The content isn't bad per se - it's alright. That affects excitement (I've seen people get really excited about a release once here - Spelljammer) and why people get negative about stuff.
Dragon Delves has seemingly been a continuation of that. It they described it as epic when it wasn't in any real sense of the word which has disappointed people who took them at their word. It seems to be ok though, I'd consider it if I wanted a dragon heavy campaign and wanted to bulk it out. It's a continuation of the policy of just getting stuff out, and playing to one of 5e's strengths - having sheer amounts of content. There's more content for 5e than the other three games put together - and that's just the stuff I own.
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
Hard not to feel like the powers that be think this release is a bit underwhelming considering it’s now out but the “buy me quick” banner along the top is still promoting Crooked Moon which has been out for weeks
Or the community overhyped a release like they always do, blowing things out of proportion expectation-wise, then pretend to be shocked when all of their collective headcanon isn't followed to the letter, rinse & repeat.
Not every release should be expected to be a mind-blowing high-stakes DM & player tool-packed powderkeg of non-stop epicness.
& not every release is for the internet.
I have my criticisms of what the book actually is, but they're minor, because I kept my expectations in check.
While the pragmatic part of me agrees, in principle I feel the need to disagree with the spirit of this comment.
We’re all here because we care about this hobby. Some of us can eke out a living playing TTRPGs but a vast majority of us play the game for free out of the love and joy we get from it.
There are so many excellent systems that have wonderful content being released for them. (Ex. Call of Cthulhu, Mothership, Delta Green, Blades in the Dark, Alice is Missing, Shadowdark, Mork Borg, etc.)
The more and more common idea that would should expect mediocrity for a majority of releases from the “greatest role playing game” is disappointing and alarming. We should demand better for D&D. Otherwise it will continue to be gutted by the goal of money instead of customer satisfaction.
I wrote a massive reply delving into this, then realised I'd be detailing the thread.
In short though, I think Hasbro/WotC has gone for quantity and just getting stuff out over knocking things out of the park. Their tempo is substantially higher than any of the three other games I play. It's just part of the paradigm for 5e - just get stuff out there, and people will buy it. The content isn't bad per se - it's alright. That affects excitement (I've seen people get really excited about a release once here - Spelljammer) and why people get negative about stuff.
Dragon Delves has seemingly been a continuation of that. It they described it as epic when it wasn't in any real sense of the word which has disappointed people who took them at their word. It seems to be ok though, I'd consider it if I wanted a dragon heavy campaign and wanted to bulk it out. It's a continuation of the policy of just getting stuff out, and playing to one of 5e's strengths - having sheer amounts of content. There's more content for 5e than the other three games put together - and that's just the stuff I own.
People took common marketing language as verbatim usage of TTRPG slang, & overhyped this.
"epic" in marketing does NOT mean "epic" in terms of TTRPG slang.
Frankly, I'm surprised people didn't bother to differentiate the 2.
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DM, player & homebrewer(Current homebrew project is an unofficial conversion of SBURB/SGRUB from Homestuck into DND 5e)
Once made Maxwell's Silver Hammer come down upon Strahd's head to make sure he was dead.
Always study & sharpen philosophical razors. They save a lot of trouble.
People are demanding a Curse of Strahd in every single product, while also complaining that WOTC only ever produces "Big Campaign Books" despite them only releasing Anthology books for the last two years.
People are demanding a Curse of Strahd in every single product, while also complaining that WOTC only ever produces "Big Campaign Books" despite them only releasing Anthology books for the last two years.
only releasing Anthology books for the last two years.
Assuming we're talking adventures, in the last 2 years (since July 2023) WotC has released 3 full adventure (Phandelver and Below, Turn of Fortunes Wheel, and Eve of Ruin) vs 2 Anthologies (Quests from the Infinite Staircase and Dragon Delves). If you want to expand "the last two years" to be from the start of 2023, you can add Keys from the Golden Vault to the anthology list making it 3 vs 3. I am discounting Tyranny of Dragons in Jan 2023 given it's a collected reprint. Shadow of the Dragon Queen misses out on the deadline by a week.
So even at the most generous reading, WotC have far from been "only releasing Anthology books for the last two years."
Unless you mean they only started releasing anthologies in the last two years, in which case that's also very incorrect. If we take the generous cut off of Jan 2023, that gives us; Journey's Through the Radiant Citadel, Candlekeep Mysteries, Ghosts of Saltmarsh, and Tales from the Yawning Portal. They've released more anthologies before this 2 year lines you've drawn than after it.
Basically whichever way you slice it, your statement is fairly incorrect
only releasing Anthology books for the last two years.
Assuming we're talking adventures, in the last 2 years (since July 2024) WotC has released 3 full adventure (Phandelver and Below, Turn of Fortunes Wheel, and Eve of Ruin) vs 2 Anthologies (Quests from the Infinite Staircase and Dragon Delves). If you want to expand "the last two years" to be from the start of 2023, you can add Keys from the Golden Vault to the anthology list making it 3 vs 3. I am discounting Tyranny of Dragons in Jan 2023 given it's a collected reprint. Shadow of the Dragon Queen misses out on the deadline by a week.
So even at the most generous reading, WotC have far from been "only releasing Anthology books for the last two years."
Unless you mean they only started releasing anthologies in the last two years, in which case that's also very incorrect. If we take the generous cut off of Jan 2023, that gives us; Journey's Through the Radiant Citadel, Candlekeep Mysteries, Ghosts of Saltmarsh, and Tales from the Yawning Portal. They've released more anthologies before this 2 year lines you've drawn than after it.
Basically whichever way you slice it, your statement is fairly incorrect
Actually, I more meant that the community is ignoring all of the anthologies and those players want the big books while complaining that that's all they release. The accuracy of WOTC's release schedule is far less important than the misguided community sentiment that leaves WOTC unable to please anyone even when they do what large segments of the community ask for.
Also, Turn of Fortune's Wheel is hidden inside Planescape: Adventures in the Multiverse, so I didn't even realise it existed because the campaign setting doesn't interest me, and it's significantly more expensive than things like Tyranny of Dragons, or Tomb of Annihilation. Honestly, that right there is probably a WOTC sales and marketing failure, selling a setting and a campaign in the same book.
As an anthology of "Drop into anything" adventures, Tier 4 doesn't make sense, because we know the vast majority of campaigns don't get past about 15th level. WOTC knows it better than us, because they have all our characters in their database. So "the demand from players" isn't there, because players aren't buying Dragon Delves. Dungeon Masters are. And they're not running high level campaigns.
Besides, they made the Vecna Eve of Ruin campaign for high level play. I wonder how well that sold...
WotC did release Chains of Asmodeus and that was well received. For some reason, though, they didn't really promote it or even sell it on dndbeyond.
On multiple occasions, Wizards has said this line of reasoning is wrong and harmful for the game. They have acknowledged that, while it is true most campaigns do not reach epic levels, a sufficient number of them do to justify including content for epic levels in products. I believe it was Crawford who once said in a video interview that they regularly fall into the trap of thinking just as you do - and that they are hurting their players by doing so. It has also been acknowledged that their failure to create content and guidance on epic play is a contributing factor as to why many campaigns do not reach epic play - one reason for campaign burnout is that many people simply run out of material they feel comfortable using.
It is pretty clear Wizards had the opportunity to do epic level content - dragons are, after all, a creature type that goes into epic levels. And, once again, they decided to listen to the reasoning you laid out - even though they have said doing so is harmful for the game and a failure in design on their part. By Wizards’ own admission, this exact type of reasoning is an harmful excuse, not a justification.
The Vecna argument is also not congruent - even if it sold poorly, anthology adventures are fundamentally different, since they do not require you to commit to a full campaign up to their maximum level. They are the perfect place to release some epic level content, since the DM purchasers can then use them for whatever level they want. They remain useful even if the campaign will never reach epic tiers.
Chains was kind of an odd one because it was official WotC but was also a charity release with proceeds going to Extra Life so I think that restricted how much effort they were willing to put behind it
They've put the other Extra Life charity stuff on DDB.
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
Yeah but wasn't that years after the initial release? At least for the ones released post WotC buy out? Not sure if there's some time limit on it that means we might still get Chains on here in the future but they have to wait
Agreed. They also said in one of their promotional videos leading up to the release of 2024 that part of their redesign of the rules was an intentional effort to get more people playing at upper tiers. That would suggest the intention to release adventures to support play at those levels. There haven't been many adventures released yet, but I would have wanted Dragon Delves to hit that note because it is one of the iconic monsters. I'm not upset over it, but I feel it is a missed opportunity and them not doing it (and taking preorder bonuses away from digital-only buyers like me) ended up saving me some money in the end. I also missed out on the disappointment over the reused art.
I don't know how well Eve of Ruin sold. I bought it but have not yet played it. Vecna is cool and EoR seems like a fun adventure to me. I hope to run it or play it one day (shrugs). From what I see from reviews online though, the maps are poor, the fights are easy, and the plot too simple to figure out. Nothing that would suggest that high level adventures are a bad idea. Not a single complaint can be found on it for having an adventure that runs up to level 20. Just because EoR may have done poorly (and no evidence has been submitted here to support this), does not mean that people do not want to play high level adventures. I think the criticisms I found are valid reasons to not buy the adventure module and I also agree that EoR and DD are fundamentally different and should not be weighed against each other because of those differences. It's also a little premature to be planting flags in the earth on how well DD is going to sell because it only goes up to level 12...
DMs are not the only people who buy adventures either. They are the ones who run it. It is a bit of a logical leap to assume that a DM is the only one buying adventures. Players sometimes buy adventures that they want their DMs to run. I certainly have. Having money is not a requisite for being a DM. It is more accurate to say DMs often are the ones who buy the adventures. It is also inaccurate to say that DMs do not run high level adventures. I think it is safer to say that historically, games fall apart before they can reach those levels, not because interest in high-level games is low. Games that start in the mid tier have better odds of lasting until the upper tiers because there is not enough time for life to get in the way. There are a lot of assumptions being made here in the name of protecting sacred cows.
I will say though, that if Dragon Delves does it for you, then more power to you. 'The customer is always right, in matters of taste' and this might just be your favorite meal.
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This is a book about dragons, the archetypical high level threat. Of the 25 CR 20+ monsters in the monster manual, 10 of them are dragons. Not having ancient dragons is just a failure.
Agreed - however,
1) certainly having nothing past level 12 was a disappointment and a mistake. Even a “less than perfect” upper tier 3 and tier 4 adventures should have been there. They could also have used gem dragons or one of the other missing dragons for those adventures with stat blocks and info as appendixes for the extra content others (and I) would have liked.
2) The artwork history was interesting and fun but there really should have been some lore about each dragon type - even if much was a rehash.
3) the no new items/subclasses - this was an anthology of quick adventures why would/should they be introing either? Really a nonstarter argument I. My opinion.
4) The big however - For what it is - an anthology af short drop in adventures featuring a dragon in a lair its actually good. It has enough background and info to run the adventure easily (we are in the middle of the first right now). They do appear to take only 1-3 sessions (we rolled up characters and got through most of part 1 of the first adventure in session 1 and should complete it next week or, at worst, the following week. The settings are both detailed enough for the adventure play and vague enough to be dropped into any campaign ( pretty much). If you want to take out the dragon of the ad ensure and drop in your own ( of the same type) that should be easy enough. I can also see the possibility of turning the whole anthology into a campaign - and there are actually some suggestions for that in the intro material.
Overall, once you get past the disappointments our expectations created it is not a bad book - a bit expensive to get the hardcopy and digital versions but not horribly overpriced.
5) The whole side discussion on creating high level campaigns - yes they can be a nightmare, but that is really a problem of our own creation. What they should be is barely survivable not barely adequate challenges for any random group of 4 tier 4+ PCs. Especially dragon lairs. By the time a dragon becomes ancient it’s faced and destroyed hundreds if not thousands of adventuring parties, dozens of tier 2f3 parties and added layers of defenses to its lair to handle the common things like teleports in, flying/levitating etc. to some extent that lair is really the bbeg not the dragon. If it’s not designed with a roughly 50% kill rate it’s probably not strong enough (by this time parties have ways to deal with dieing PCs as well). No you can’t plan for very contingency and every team mix but you can plan to eliminate or reduce all/most common problematic things (from the dragon’s view point) and you should. Fighting the same dragon out in the open should be far easier than taking it on along with its lair.
Should WotC create a couple? Of course, but such a lair is not going to be a 2 night drop in adventure and given the nature of this volume I understand why it wasn’t there. What I would love to see (but probably never will) is an anthology that takes those hard to create adventures and does them (well) - something like 2-3 tier 3/4+ dragon lairs, 3 different real wilderness adventures ( a l1, L5/6, and L11/12 each in a different environment) and maybe a real underwater adventure lasting more than 24 hours.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
Hard not to feel like the powers that be think this release is a bit underwhelming considering it’s now out but the “buy me quick” banner along the top is still promoting Crooked Moon which has been out for weeks
Or the community overhyped a release like they always do, blowing things out of proportion expectation-wise, then pretend to be shocked when all of their collective headcanon isn't followed to the letter, rinse & repeat.
Not every release should be expected to be a mind-blowing high-stakes DM & player tool-packed powderkeg of non-stop epicness.
& not every release is for the internet.
I have my criticisms of what the book actually is, but they're minor, because I kept my expectations in check.
DM, player & homebrewer(Current homebrew project is an unofficial conversion of SBURB/SGRUB from Homestuck into DND 5e)
Once made Maxwell's Silver Hammer come down upon Strahd's head to make sure he was dead.
Always study & sharpen philosophical razors. They save a lot of trouble.
It is really quite simple do not pre-order something you are unable to return if it doesn't meet your expectations. You not only do not own anything paid for on this site, but there are absolutely no returns allowed. Vegas has better odds than giving this site any money
While the pragmatic part of me agrees, in principle, I feel the need to disagree with the spirit of this comment.
We’re all here because we care about this hobby. Some of us can eke out a living playing TTRPGs, but a vast majority of us play the game for free out of the love and joy we get from it.
There are so many excellent systems that have wonderful content being released for them. (Ex. Call of Cthulhu, Mothership, Delta Green, Blades in the Dark, Alice is Missing, Shadowdark, Mork Borg, etc.)
The more and more common idea that we should expect mediocrity for a majority of releases from the “greatest role-playing game” is disappointing and alarming. We should demand better for D&D. Otherwise, it will continue to be gutted by the goal of money instead of customer satisfaction.
What's much more likely is that the banner script is borked and showing the wrong thing. I would assume this based on the fact I've dismissed that banner multiple times which usually only happens when that script has gone wrong.
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I wrote a massive reply delving into this, then realised I'd be detailing the thread.
In short though, I think Hasbro/WotC has gone for quantity and just getting stuff out over knocking things out of the park. Their tempo is substantially higher than any of the three other games I play. It's just part of the paradigm for 5e - just get stuff out there, and people will buy it. The content isn't bad per se - it's alright. That affects excitement (I've seen people get really excited about a release once here - Spelljammer) and why people get negative about stuff.
Dragon Delves has seemingly been a continuation of that. It they described it as epic when it wasn't in any real sense of the word which has disappointed people who took them at their word. It seems to be ok though, I'd consider it if I wanted a dragon heavy campaign and wanted to bulk it out. It's a continuation of the policy of just getting stuff out, and playing to one of 5e's strengths - having sheer amounts of content. There's more content for 5e than the other three games put together - and that's just the stuff I own.
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
People took common marketing language as verbatim usage of TTRPG slang, & overhyped this.
"epic" in marketing does NOT mean "epic" in terms of TTRPG slang.
Frankly, I'm surprised people didn't bother to differentiate the 2.
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Once made Maxwell's Silver Hammer come down upon Strahd's head to make sure he was dead.
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I think that's probably the biggest issue.
People are demanding a Curse of Strahd in every single product, while also complaining that WOTC only ever produces "Big Campaign Books" despite them only releasing Anthology books for the last two years.
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Assuming we're talking adventures, in the last 2 years (since July 2023) WotC has released 3 full adventure (Phandelver and Below, Turn of Fortunes Wheel, and Eve of Ruin) vs 2 Anthologies (Quests from the Infinite Staircase and Dragon Delves). If you want to expand "the last two years" to be from the start of 2023, you can add Keys from the Golden Vault to the anthology list making it 3 vs 3. I am discounting Tyranny of Dragons in Jan 2023 given it's a collected reprint. Shadow of the Dragon Queen misses out on the deadline by a week.
So even at the most generous reading, WotC have far from been "only releasing Anthology books for the last two years."
Unless you mean they only started releasing anthologies in the last two years, in which case that's also very incorrect. If we take the generous cut off of Jan 2023, that gives us; Journey's Through the Radiant Citadel, Candlekeep Mysteries, Ghosts of Saltmarsh, and Tales from the Yawning Portal. They've released more anthologies before this 2 year lines you've drawn than after it.
Basically whichever way you slice it, your statement is fairly incorrect
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Actually, I more meant that the community is ignoring all of the anthologies and those players want the big books while complaining that that's all they release. The accuracy of WOTC's release schedule is far less important than the misguided community sentiment that leaves WOTC unable to please anyone even when they do what large segments of the community ask for.
Also, Turn of Fortune's Wheel is hidden inside Planescape: Adventures in the Multiverse, so I didn't even realise it existed because the campaign setting doesn't interest me, and it's significantly more expensive than things like Tyranny of Dragons, or Tomb of Annihilation. Honestly, that right there is probably a WOTC sales and marketing failure, selling a setting and a campaign in the same book.