I'm starting a new character and I'm trying to think ahead to where I want him to be around level 8. I don't know where we'll be starting out the campaign, but somewhere between level 3-5. I like the idea of this Gloomstalking Assassin Twilight mix, but I don't know if it's stupid to lose out on the high level stuff by multiclassing so much. I've almost never multiclassed so I can get up to the capstone abilities, but there's some good synergies with this build I think. Especially since even though we are playing 2014 rules, my DM is allowing the Weapon Mastery features. I originally was thinking of using short sword and dagger to do the nick/vex combo to get advantage/sneak attack. Any thoughts on this is welcome.
I won’t call it stupid or dumb, but it’s likely to be pretty clunky and unwieldy, particularly if you’re starting in the 3-5 range. What exactly do you expect to come together from all 3 subclasses?
Gloomstalker Ranger/Assassin Rogue is a classic combination, but I'm not sure what you're getting out of twilight cleric. I assume this is 2014 rules, since in 2024 it's not actually possible to have that combination before level 9.
I guess the things I liked were Dread Ambusher, Twilight Sanctuary, Assassinate, and the Nick/Vex combinations. I would think there would be more chances for advantage, high initiative, and sneak attacks.
Sneak Attack doesn’t need multiclass dips to enable it, particularly if you’re using a Vex weapon. And Twilight Sanctuary doesn’t synergize well with the rest. Personally I’d suggest just sticking with a Gloomstalker/Assassin multiclass; you’re starting at a fairly low level so you’ll already either be splitting your class features sharply or have one class slowly coming online. Trying to throw a third into the mix is more likely to bog down the character further as you try to level into everything and build up character strengths. Ultimately it’s up to you though.
Honestly, Twilight Sanctuary is pretty antithetical to the Gloomstalker, Assassin and Rogue aspects of the character. Those three need darkness to work at their best, and Twilight Sanctuary gets rid of it.
You can do it...but I'd say this is one of those MC builds that gives you more weaker options rather than doubling down on the strengths, which results in a weaker character. Not end of the world...but it's a bit unfocused.
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Twilight Cleric's 300 feet of darkvision would be a cool feature for the build I think you're going for, but other than that I don't think it brings much to the table and 3 levels to grab that subclass is a high price to pay for 300 feet of darkvision and/or twilight sanctuary. (Plus, how often does the need for that much darkvision come up, where standard 60' wouldn't accomplish what you need?)
True, I think I'm tempted by the granting of temp hit points each round, but that's probably not good for this type of build. I just like the feel of all these three coming together, but maybe mechanically it is unnecessary.
What is granting of temp hit points each round? I am not too familiar with these classes. All are in the 2024 PHB? Or would I need to look into another book?
What is granting of temp hit points each round? I am not too familiar with these classes. All are in the 2024 PHB? Or would I need to look into another book?
The Twilight Cleric is from Tasha's (and not currently Legacy). It has a Channel Divinity option called "Twilight Sanctuary" that, when activated gives people within 30' 1d6+cleric level THP. It's pretty powerful in the early levels, but gets outstripped by increasing monster damage.
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Twilight Sanctuary is lovely but when you're a gloomstalker or gloomstalker/rogue you don't want to be wasting an action in early combat to invoke it. In your first turn, you would want to use Dread Ambusher. When you get to 5th level gloomstalker, you can do a ton of damage with extra attack - you want that. At that point, a level of rogue is sweet for the sneak attack and expertise. You have plenty of darkvision as a gloomstalker (especially if you have any racial darkvision).
Twilight Clerics are great but better if Twilight Sanctuary is invoked by another character in the party rather than you.
True. I'd rather get the Twilight Sanctuary put ON ME, rather than me putting it ON THEM. Not likely in our party, so I thought it might be good. I'm still workshopping this concept.
There are of course reasons to do things just because they are fun or interesting. I'm not sure how the backstory goes that creates an gloomstalker assassin turned cleric or cleric turned assassin-ranger but it seems like it could be fun to write even if it's not mechanically so useful. This is the kind of character that you'd probably play differently in every combat.
There are of course reasons to do things just because they are fun or interesting. I'm not sure how the backstory goes that creates an gloomstalker assassin turned cleric or cleric turned assassin-ranger but it seems like it could be fun to write even if it's not mechanically so useful. This is the kind of character that you'd probably play differently in every combat.
There are, but at the same time there's reasons to leave some things in the realm of backstory lore rather than trying to shoehorn them in via game features. I tried doing a Cleric/Rogue split in a Pathfinder game one time, and most of my recollections are of sucking at both rather than feeling like I was playing out any particular fantasy. "Play differently every combat" for a TTRPG character is like "work to resolve assorted challenges" on a job description- maybe it means you'll have engaging opportunities to problem solve, maybe it means you're gonna be constantly flailing around trying to figure out what you can actually do about any given situation.
There are of course reasons to do things just because they are fun or interesting. I'm not sure how the backstory goes that creates an gloomstalker assassin turned cleric or cleric turned assassin-ranger but it seems like it could be fun to write even if it's not mechanically so useful. This is the kind of character that you'd probably play differently in every combat.
That's true. However, there is no reason why your mechanically pue-Gloomstalker can't just have the Cleric aspect as a backstory instead of having it be an actual multi class.
One of the mistakes I see often with MCs is that people don't understand the concept of wide v tall. You want to have your features making each other stronger rather than having more of them. Straight classes are usually built around this concept, but multi classes are things you have to be careful with. Let's take an example.
Let's say you go Fighter 6/Wizard 6. It sounds awesome because you get the best of both worlds, martial and caster! The truth is: not so much.
In a given Action, you can do either an Attack or a Spell. If you Attack, then you're effectively a L6 Fighter. You get to do two Attacks (due to Extra Attack (1)), but if you'd gone pure Fighter, you could have done twice the damage since you would have had Extra Attack (2), but you can't, because you're L6 Fighter, not a L12 Fighter.
If you cast a spell, you could do a Fireball, a 3rd level spell. Or, if you'd gone straight Wizard, you could have cast a 6th level spell, like Freezing Sphere, that does 2d6 more damage while covering 9x the area. But you can't because you're a L6 Wizard, not a L12 one.
In effect, each turn, you're picking to play as one of two L6 characters, rather than one L12 character, and they can't keep up.
The Twilight Cleric aspect is kind of acting like that. You want Twilight Sanctuary, but TS isn't compatible with Gloomstalker really. So if you, say, go for 6/6, you're going to be picking between your L6 GS character or your L6 TC character, rather than hitting with a L12 character.
If everyone else is doing similar, then it's not an issue. Your DM can tone down the difficulty and it all works. In my experience though, it's usually just one player and they get frustrated trying to play their L6 character while everyone else is playing L12...until they look at the mook wrong and end up with a new character.
If you think you'll enjoy the character, then crack on. You may well have a blast! Nothing wrong with that. This is just one of those builds where you're less likely to enjoy it, that's all we're saying.
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I'm starting a new character and I'm trying to think ahead to where I want him to be around level 8. I don't know where we'll be starting out the campaign, but somewhere between level 3-5. I like the idea of this Gloomstalking Assassin Twilight mix, but I don't know if it's stupid to lose out on the high level stuff by multiclassing so much. I've almost never multiclassed so I can get up to the capstone abilities, but there's some good synergies with this build I think. Especially since even though we are playing 2014 rules, my DM is allowing the Weapon Mastery features. I originally was thinking of using short sword and dagger to do the nick/vex combo to get advantage/sneak attack. Any thoughts on this is welcome.
I won’t call it stupid or dumb, but it’s likely to be pretty clunky and unwieldy, particularly if you’re starting in the 3-5 range. What exactly do you expect to come together from all 3 subclasses?
Gloomstalker Ranger/Assassin Rogue is a classic combination, but I'm not sure what you're getting out of twilight cleric. I assume this is 2014 rules, since in 2024 it's not actually possible to have that combination before level 9.
I guess the things I liked were Dread Ambusher, Twilight Sanctuary, Assassinate, and the Nick/Vex combinations. I would think there would be more chances for advantage, high initiative, and sneak attacks.
Sneak Attack doesn’t need multiclass dips to enable it, particularly if you’re using a Vex weapon. And Twilight Sanctuary doesn’t synergize well with the rest. Personally I’d suggest just sticking with a Gloomstalker/Assassin multiclass; you’re starting at a fairly low level so you’ll already either be splitting your class features sharply or have one class slowly coming online. Trying to throw a third into the mix is more likely to bog down the character further as you try to level into everything and build up character strengths. Ultimately it’s up to you though.
Honestly, Twilight Sanctuary is pretty antithetical to the Gloomstalker, Assassin and Rogue aspects of the character. Those three need darkness to work at their best, and Twilight Sanctuary gets rid of it.
You can do it...but I'd say this is one of those MC builds that gives you more weaker options rather than doubling down on the strengths, which results in a weaker character. Not end of the world...but it's a bit unfocused.
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
Twilight Cleric's 300 feet of darkvision would be a cool feature for the build I think you're going for, but other than that I don't think it brings much to the table and 3 levels to grab that subclass is a high price to pay for 300 feet of darkvision and/or twilight sanctuary. (Plus, how often does the need for that much darkvision come up, where standard 60' wouldn't accomplish what you need?)
True, I think I'm tempted by the granting of temp hit points each round, but that's probably not good for this type of build. I just like the feel of all these three coming together, but maybe mechanically it is unnecessary.
It's a fairly broken powerful ability, but because it scales with class level rather than character level, not great for multiclassing.
What is granting of temp hit points each round? I am not too familiar with these classes. All are in the 2024 PHB? Or would I need to look into another book?
Twilight sanctuary in this case. Twilight cleric is a legacy subclass from Tasha's.
The Twilight Cleric is from Tasha's (and not currently Legacy). It has a Channel Divinity option called "Twilight Sanctuary" that, when activated gives people within 30' 1d6+cleric level THP. It's pretty powerful in the early levels, but gets outstripped by increasing monster damage.
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
Twilight Sanctuary is lovely but when you're a gloomstalker or gloomstalker/rogue you don't want to be wasting an action in early combat to invoke it. In your first turn, you would want to use Dread Ambusher. When you get to 5th level gloomstalker, you can do a ton of damage with extra attack - you want that. At that point, a level of rogue is sweet for the sneak attack and expertise. You have plenty of darkvision as a gloomstalker (especially if you have any racial darkvision).
Twilight Clerics are great but better if Twilight Sanctuary is invoked by another character in the party rather than you.
True. I'd rather get the Twilight Sanctuary put ON ME, rather than me putting it ON THEM. Not likely in our party, so I thought it might be good. I'm still workshopping this concept.
There are of course reasons to do things just because they are fun or interesting. I'm not sure how the backstory goes that creates an gloomstalker assassin turned cleric or cleric turned assassin-ranger but it seems like it could be fun to write even if it's not mechanically so useful. This is the kind of character that you'd probably play differently in every combat.
There are, but at the same time there's reasons to leave some things in the realm of backstory lore rather than trying to shoehorn them in via game features. I tried doing a Cleric/Rogue split in a Pathfinder game one time, and most of my recollections are of sucking at both rather than feeling like I was playing out any particular fantasy. "Play differently every combat" for a TTRPG character is like "work to resolve assorted challenges" on a job description- maybe it means you'll have engaging opportunities to problem solve, maybe it means you're gonna be constantly flailing around trying to figure out what you can actually do about any given situation.
I would go with 2 classes rather than 3. You drastically slow your progression unless you are already at lvl 6+
Even then trying to make everything work isn't as easy as you might think.
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That's true. However, there is no reason why your mechanically pue-Gloomstalker can't just have the Cleric aspect as a backstory instead of having it be an actual multi class.
One of the mistakes I see often with MCs is that people don't understand the concept of wide v tall. You want to have your features making each other stronger rather than having more of them. Straight classes are usually built around this concept, but multi classes are things you have to be careful with. Let's take an example.
Let's say you go Fighter 6/Wizard 6. It sounds awesome because you get the best of both worlds, martial and caster! The truth is: not so much.
In a given Action, you can do either an Attack or a Spell. If you Attack, then you're effectively a L6 Fighter. You get to do two Attacks (due to Extra Attack (1)), but if you'd gone pure Fighter, you could have done twice the damage since you would have had Extra Attack (2), but you can't, because you're L6 Fighter, not a L12 Fighter.
If you cast a spell, you could do a Fireball, a 3rd level spell. Or, if you'd gone straight Wizard, you could have cast a 6th level spell, like Freezing Sphere, that does 2d6 more damage while covering 9x the area. But you can't because you're a L6 Wizard, not a L12 one.
In effect, each turn, you're picking to play as one of two L6 characters, rather than one L12 character, and they can't keep up.
The Twilight Cleric aspect is kind of acting like that. You want Twilight Sanctuary, but TS isn't compatible with Gloomstalker really. So if you, say, go for 6/6, you're going to be picking between your L6 GS character or your L6 TC character, rather than hitting with a L12 character.
If everyone else is doing similar, then it's not an issue. Your DM can tone down the difficulty and it all works. In my experience though, it's usually just one player and they get frustrated trying to play their L6 character while everyone else is playing L12...until they look at the mook wrong and end up with a new character.
If you think you'll enjoy the character, then crack on. You may well have a blast! Nothing wrong with that. This is just one of those builds where you're less likely to enjoy it, that's all we're saying.
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.