Level 3: Adventurer's Atlas (Eberron Forge of the Artificer)
Whenever you finish a long while holding cartographer tools, you can use that tool to create a set of magical maps by touching at least two creatures (one of whom can be yourself), up to a maximum number of creatures equal to 1 plus your Intelligence modifier (minimum of two creatures). Each target receives a magical map, which constantly updates to show the relative position of all the map holders but is illegible to all others. The maps last until you die or until you use this feature again, at which point any existing maps created by this feature immediately vanish.
While carrying the map, a target gains the following benefits.
Awareness. The target adds 1d4 to its initiative rolls.
Positioning. The target knows the location of all other map holders that are on the same plane of existence as itself. When casting a spell or creating another effect that requires being able to see the effect's target, a map holder can target another map holder regardless of sight or cover, so long as the other map holder is still within the effect's range.
So, who are the targets?
A) The creatures you design at finishing the long rest? B) The creatures who hold the map?
If option A, its clearly useless to give the map to any creature that you want to know its location and its not your ally because you have to sleep with him/her. Strangely that happens, most peaople doesnt sleep near the bbeg or a guy who you want to spy (i dont know if i explain well). Allies of course benefit from this, but most of times you know where allies are at. So, you cant use the map as a "tracker" for bbeg or any who you mant to know his/her location unless you sleep with him/her
If option B, that would be nice, means you can give the map to your rogue and he slips it in a backpack or something so you can use it as tracker without being notice at all.
Could anyone help me to clear this?
My opinion: You design a map holder on a finishing rest because wording says, but since you create the map, and give it to the creature, if that creature gives it to any other creature, that new creatures becomes the "map holder", because its well.... holding/carrying it (meaning option B)
If option A, i know i can summon a familiar and give him a map and then use it as a tracker, but i want to know what peaople think about this
I think the intent is that you're selecting allies and they keep the map you give them. Using the maps as tracking device for enemies is probably an exploit/clever player shenanigans (depending on how favourably the DM looks upon such things).
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So slipping it into an opponent's pack allows tracking that opponent, and as it wasn't an original target the opponent cannot use the map or benefit from the initiative bonus. Not a bad little trick.
The "map holder" is whoever is currently in possession of one of these maps. The targeting of creatures is just for the purpose of determining how many maps are created, the act of targeting them doesn't make them a map holder.
thats what i want to believe, and for me makes sense. But it says you desing "map holders" by finishing long rest, so all effects remain if the tarjet has or not the map for it effects, meaning if he gives or loses the map cant get benefits from it , Isnt it?
.Thats why i am asking, for me, makes sense a map holder is the one whos actualy carrying the map, not only the tarjet who designed at lfinishing a long rest
The "map holder" is whoever is currently in possession of one of these maps. The targeting of creatures is just for the purpose of determining how many maps are created, the act of targeting them doesn't make them a map holder.
The thing about this is that there are some benefits provided in the "Adventurer's Atlas" feature — the Initiative bonus, knowing the location of other map holders, and being able to target map holders with spells without seeing them — which say "while carrying the map, a target" gains those benefits. The word "target" in that context seems to be referring to the creatures you target when you create the maps.
This would mean that those specific benefits only apply when one of those targets is a map holder, while other benefits provided to "map holders" by other features apply to anyone who happens to be holding the map.
I'm not saying that's wrong, but if that's the way it was intended to be interpreted, I feel like they could've worded it a bit better.
I think the tarjet means to anyone whos a "map holder". So, if you give the map to any creature, that creature becomes the "map holder". Definition doesnt says each tarjet becomes a map holder, but as long a creature keeps the map, it gains it benefits.
Aslo im agree this isnt really good worded, they've could explain better or, at least, make a sage advice or something to clarify this. As always, depends of the DM, but i would like to assume a general point of view, because i play in a "Westmarches" like server
That worded can affect on how smart and creative player can use this feature, because depends of the point of view there are a clearly limitation or an open world of posibilities depending how "map holder" wording is, (the tarjet you desing at long rest or the tarjet who's carrying the map)
I think the tarjet means to anyone whos a "map holder". So, if you give the map to any creature, that creature becomes the "map holder". Definition doesnt says each tarjet becomes a map holder, but as long a creature keeps the map, it gains it benefits.
My point is that "target", in the context of that level 3 feature, seems to be referring to the creatures you target when creating the maps. While I agree that it's reasonable to interpret "map holder" as referring to anyone holding a map, I don't think it's reasonable to interpret "target" in that specific context to mean the same thing. So, if you interpret "map holder" to mean "anyone holding a map, even if they're not one of the original targets", then some benefits apply to them and some don't.
And if you assume that they do both refer to "anyone holding a map", then that means that if you plant it on an enemy, they can potentially find it and use it themselves — meaning now they know where everyone else who has a map is at all times, and they get a bonus to their initiative. That might be intended behavior, but it could be very dangerous.
Just out of curiosity, why do you always spell it "tarjet"?
I'd agree that "target" and "map holder" are not synonyms. Some features of the cartographer affect the map holder, some affect the target, and some only apply when both are the same person.
Adventurer's Atlas base wording includes:
Whenever you finish a Long Rest while holding Cartographer’s Tools, you can use that tool to create a set of magical maps by touching at least two creatures (one of whom can be yourself), up to a maximum number of creatures equal to 1 plus your Intelligence modifier (minimum of two creatures). Each target receives a magical map, which constantly updates to show the relative position of all the map holders but is illegible to all others.
For the last sentence (RAW) the relative position is of anyone holding a map, be they a target of the original ability or not. It doesn't say target, it says "all the map holders" and nothing defines the targets as map holders. This means natural language takes precedent—aka a "map holding" is someone who is holding (aka in possession of) a map created by this feature.
Later we have features that say:
While carrying the map, a target gains the following benefits.
Awareness. The target adds 1d4 to its Initiative rolls.
Positioning. The target knows the location of all other map holders that are on the same plane of existence as itself. When casting a spell or creating another effect that requires being able to see the effect’s target, a map holder can target another map holder regardless of sight or cover, so long as the other map holder is still within the effect’s range.
These abilities require the beneficiary be both
A target of the original ability
Be carrying a map
However the level 15 feature says
Safe Haven. When a map holder would be reduced to 0 Hit Points but not killed outright, that creature can destroy its map. The creature’s Hit Points instead change to a number equal to twice your Artificer level, and the creature is teleported to an unoccupied space within 5 feet of you or another map holder of its choice.
This specifies "map holder", not target.
So yeah, there's some variance in how the feature works
While using the map as a tracking device might work under RAW, I think that’s kind of splitting hairs worrying about the difference between a target and a map holder. To me, the reason they use both phrases is because the other choice involves using the word target multiple times in the same sentence, and that’s just bad writing. Just go re-read the ability and mentally replace map holder with target every time. It actually makes it weirder and more confusing. Heck, there’s a point in the positioning bullet where it would say “a target can target another target.”
To me, this is just so you can find the rogue when they scout ahead, or let the cleric hit you with a healing word even if you’re around a corner. Or even if the cleric is blinded — which to me is the strange one because then they can’t look at the map, but there it is.
Spain, couldnt remnember if was G or J on "Target" xD sry for misswording
Even if enemy can apply the bonus, they dont really know how it works. I mean, you finish a long rest, you tell your allies "this map shows the position of other map holders". If you slip the map on a npc, and it can apply it effects, that npc knows the map is showing something, updating constantly, but unless someone explain it, he shdnt know at first that shows the other map holders. But its reasonable it would know if he "studies" it a bit.
Aslo, a character could use this in benefit. Maybe you can ambush the enemy who has the map u sliped in, or maybe just for a distraction. Aslo enemy could use in that way, but its really flavourful if works that way, its a fight for "who is the cleverest", isnt fun?
I assume the map holder is the one whos carrying the map, as davyd mentions.
Thats why i aslo want know ideas about how to use it in clever ways
Whenever you finish a Long Rest while holding Cartographer’s Tools, you can use that tool to create a set of magical maps by touching at least two creatures (one of whom can be yourself), up to a maximum number of creatures equal to 1 plus your Intelligence modifier (minimum of two creatures). Each target receives a magical map, which constantly updates to show the relative position of all the map holders but is illegible to all others.
While carrying the map, a target gains the following benefits.
Awareness. The target adds 1d4 to its Initiative rolls.
Positioning. The target knows the location of all other map holders that are on the same plane of existence as itself. When casting a spell or creating another effect that requires being able to see the effect’s target, a map holder can target another map holder regardless of sight or cover, so long as the other map holder is still within the effect’s range.
If the word "Target" was "creature" or "map holder", theyve could explain better
This would be:
Whenever you finish a Long Rest while holding Cartographer’s Tools, you can use that tool to create a set of magical maps by touching at least two creatures (one of whom can be yourself), up to a maximum number of creatures equal to 1 plus your Intelligence modifier (minimum of two creatures). Each creature receives a magical map, which constantly updates to show the relative position of all the map holders but is illegible to all others.
While carrying the map, a map holder gains the following benefits.
Awareness. The map holder adds 1d4 to its Initiative rolls.
Positioning. The map holder knows the location of all other map holders that are on the same plane of existence as itself. When casting a spell or creating another effect that requires being able to see the effect’s target, a map holder can target another map holder regardless of sight or cover, so long as the other map holder is still within the effect’s range.
This is better wording in my opinion, even for later features. So if that its, you could slip the map on an enemy, with all pros and cons of the features indeed.
While using the map as a tracking device might work under RAW, I think that’s kind of splitting hairs worrying about the difference between a target and a map holder. To me, the reason they use both phrases is because the other choice involves using the word target multiple times in the same sentence, and that’s just bad writing. Just go re-read the ability and mentally replace map holder with target every time. It actually makes it weirder and more confusing. Heck, there’s a point in the positioning bullet where it would say “a target can target another target.”
To me, this is just so you can find the rogue when they scout ahead, or let the cleric hit you with a healing word even if you’re around a corner. Or even if the cleric is blinded — which to me is the strange one because then they can’t look at the map, but there it is.
Yeah, this is my instinct for how it was intended, and it's probably how I would rule it in practice, though I recognize it might not be strictly RAW.
LV 3 cartographer says that
Level 3: Adventurer's Atlas (Eberron Forge of the Artificer)
Whenever you finish a long while holding cartographer tools, you can use that tool to create a set of magical maps by touching at least two creatures (one of whom can be yourself), up to a maximum number of creatures equal to 1 plus your Intelligence modifier (minimum of two creatures). Each target receives a magical map, which constantly updates to show the relative position of all the map holders but is illegible to all others. The maps last until you die or until you use this feature again, at which point any existing maps created by this feature immediately vanish.
While carrying the map, a target gains the following benefits.
Awareness. The target adds 1d4 to its initiative rolls.
Positioning. The target knows the location of all other map holders that are on the same plane of existence as itself. When casting a spell or creating another effect that requires being able to see the effect's target, a map holder can target another map holder regardless of sight or cover, so long as the other map holder is still within the effect's range.
So, who are the targets?
A) The creatures you design at finishing the long rest?
B) The creatures who hold the map?
If option A, its clearly useless to give the map to any creature that you want to know its location and its not your ally because you have to sleep with him/her. Strangely that happens, most peaople doesnt sleep near the bbeg or a guy who you want to spy (i dont know if i explain well). Allies of course benefit from this, but most of times you know where allies are at. So, you cant use the map as a "tracker" for bbeg or any who you mant to know his/her location unless you sleep with him/her
If option B, that would be nice, means you can give the map to your rogue and he slips it in a backpack or something so you can use it as tracker without being notice at all.
Could anyone help me to clear this?
My opinion: You design a map holder on a finishing rest because wording says, but since you create the map, and give it to the creature, if that creature gives it to any other creature, that new creatures becomes the "map holder", because its well.... holding/carrying it (meaning option B)
If option A, i know i can summon a familiar and give him a map and then use it as a tracker, but i want to know what peaople think about this
I think the intent is that you're selecting allies and they keep the map you give them. Using the maps as tracking device for enemies is probably an exploit/clever player shenanigans (depending on how favourably the DM looks upon such things).
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
So slipping it into an opponent's pack allows tracking that opponent, and as it wasn't an original target the opponent cannot use the map or benefit from the initiative bonus. Not a bad little trick.
any ideas about how to use it clever/tricky thinks? Want to know your ideas.
I already know i coould for example use portent if multiclass, or magic circle from forgotten realms heroes of faerun. What ideas comes in mind?
The "map holder" is whoever is currently in possession of one of these maps. The targeting of creatures is just for the purpose of determining how many maps are created, the act of targeting them doesn't make them a map holder.
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thats what i want to believe, and for me makes sense. But it says you desing "map holders" by finishing long rest, so all effects remain if the tarjet has or not the map for it effects, meaning if he gives or loses the map cant get benefits from it , Isnt it?
.Thats why i am asking, for me, makes sense a map holder is the one whos actualy carrying the map, not only the tarjet who designed at lfinishing a long rest
The thing about this is that there are some benefits provided in the "Adventurer's Atlas" feature — the Initiative bonus, knowing the location of other map holders, and being able to target map holders with spells without seeing them — which say "while carrying the map, a target" gains those benefits. The word "target" in that context seems to be referring to the creatures you target when you create the maps.
This would mean that those specific benefits only apply when one of those targets is a map holder, while other benefits provided to "map holders" by other features apply to anyone who happens to be holding the map.
I'm not saying that's wrong, but if that's the way it was intended to be interpreted, I feel like they could've worded it a bit better.
pronouns: he/she/they
I think the tarjet means to anyone whos a "map holder". So, if you give the map to any creature, that creature becomes the "map holder". Definition doesnt says each tarjet becomes a map holder, but as long a creature keeps the map, it gains it benefits.
Aslo im agree this isnt really good worded, they've could explain better or, at least, make a sage advice or something to clarify this. As always, depends of the DM, but i would like to assume a general point of view, because i play in a "Westmarches" like server
That worded can affect on how smart and creative player can use this feature, because depends of the point of view there are a clearly limitation or an open world of posibilities depending how "map holder" wording is, (the tarjet you desing at long rest or the tarjet who's carrying the map)
My point is that "target", in the context of that level 3 feature, seems to be referring to the creatures you target when creating the maps. While I agree that it's reasonable to interpret "map holder" as referring to anyone holding a map, I don't think it's reasonable to interpret "target" in that specific context to mean the same thing. So, if you interpret "map holder" to mean "anyone holding a map, even if they're not one of the original targets", then some benefits apply to them and some don't.
And if you assume that they do both refer to "anyone holding a map", then that means that if you plant it on an enemy, they can potentially find it and use it themselves — meaning now they know where everyone else who has a map is at all times, and they get a bonus to their initiative. That might be intended behavior, but it could be very dangerous.
Just out of curiosity, why do you always spell it "tarjet"?
pronouns: he/she/they
I'd agree that "target" and "map holder" are not synonyms. Some features of the cartographer affect the map holder, some affect the target, and some only apply when both are the same person.
Adventurer's Atlas base wording includes:
For the last sentence (RAW) the relative position is of anyone holding a map, be they a target of the original ability or not. It doesn't say target, it says "all the map holders" and nothing defines the targets as map holders. This means natural language takes precedent—aka a "map holding" is someone who is holding (aka in possession of) a map created by this feature.
Later we have features that say:
These abilities require the beneficiary be both
However the level 15 feature says
This specifies "map holder", not target.
So yeah, there's some variance in how the feature works
Find my D&D Beyond articles here
While using the map as a tracking device might work under RAW, I think that’s kind of splitting hairs worrying about the difference between a target and a map holder. To me, the reason they use both phrases is because the other choice involves using the word target multiple times in the same sentence, and that’s just bad writing. Just go re-read the ability and mentally replace map holder with target every time. It actually makes it weirder and more confusing. Heck, there’s a point in the positioning bullet where it would say “a target can target another target.”
To me, this is just so you can find the rogue when they scout ahead, or let the cleric hit you with a healing word even if you’re around a corner. Or even if the cleric is blinded — which to me is the strange one because then they can’t look at the map, but there it is.
Spain, couldnt remnember if was G or J on "Target" xD sry for misswording
Even if enemy can apply the bonus, they dont really know how it works. I mean, you finish a long rest, you tell your allies "this map shows the position of other map holders". If you slip the map on a npc, and it can apply it effects, that npc knows the map is showing something, updating constantly, but unless someone explain it, he shdnt know at first that shows the other map holders. But its reasonable it would know if he "studies" it a bit.
Aslo, a character could use this in benefit. Maybe you can ambush the enemy who has the map u sliped in, or maybe just for a distraction. Aslo enemy could use in that way, but its really flavourful if works that way, its a fight for "who is the cleverest", isnt fun?
I assume the map holder is the one whos carrying the map, as davyd mentions.
Thats why i aslo want know ideas about how to use it in clever ways
the feature is:
Whenever you finish a Long Rest while holding Cartographer’s Tools, you can use that tool to create a set of magical maps by touching at least two creatures (one of whom can be yourself), up to a maximum number of creatures equal to 1 plus your Intelligence modifier (minimum of two creatures). Each target receives a magical map, which constantly updates to show the relative position of all the map holders but is illegible to all others.
While carrying the map, a target gains the following benefits.
Awareness. The target adds 1d4 to its Initiative rolls.
Positioning. The target knows the location of all other map holders that are on the same plane of existence as itself. When casting a spell or creating another effect that requires being able to see the effect’s target, a map holder can target another map holder regardless of sight or cover, so long as the other map holder is still within the effect’s range.
If the word "Target" was "creature" or "map holder", theyve could explain better
This would be:
Whenever you finish a Long Rest while holding Cartographer’s Tools, you can use that tool to create a set of magical maps by touching at least two creatures (one of whom can be yourself), up to a maximum number of creatures equal to 1 plus your Intelligence modifier (minimum of two creatures). Each creature receives a magical map, which constantly updates to show the relative position of all the map holders but is illegible to all others.
While carrying the map, a map holder gains the following benefits.
Awareness. The map holder adds 1d4 to its Initiative rolls.
Positioning. The map holder knows the location of all other map holders that are on the same plane of existence as itself. When casting a spell or creating another effect that requires being able to see the effect’s target, a map holder can target another map holder regardless of sight or cover, so long as the other map holder is still within the effect’s range.
This is better wording in my opinion, even for later features. So if that its, you could slip the map on an enemy, with all pros and cons of the features indeed.
Yeah, this is my instinct for how it was intended, and it's probably how I would rule it in practice, though I recognize it might not be strictly RAW.
pronouns: he/she/they
so, depends strictly about how DM understands the feature and what are the meaning of target and map holder