So i have a group of four players who have just today started my campaign and they have already, unknowingly, met the main antagonist. The problem is they aren't trusting him as it would be most enjoyable for the story if he was trusted. This is because he will fool them into taking down his underlings so he can manipulate them into replacing them. Unfortunately this cannot happen if they figure him out at the beginning and having played several campaigns myself i feel it would be, for them, more exiting to have trusted him. How can i influence them into trusting him?
I've played a campaign where the DM did something very similar.
The key for me is to NOT OVERDO IT! If you try to force the issue and have the antagonist be too helpful, that's suspicious.
Instead - give the antagonist something that the party need (information, a map, a magic item - doesn't matter, but make it believable that they would be the person to have this thing anyway, or to be able to find it for them) and let them have to find them and convince them to help. Have the antagonist ask the party WHY he should trust them and assist them? This gives the players the opportunity to open up to the antagonist and work to make them an ally.
Then have the antagonist be a tough sell - they're convinced, but they won't do it for nothing - the party have to help him by doing a small quest for him. Have him send the party on a mission to save someone/something (it doesn't matter that he set-up the situation, just so the party could foil it). It could be a village being threatened by a supernatural creature they need to defeat (that he summoned/bargained with). It could be as simple as bandits that the antagonist hired (under an alias).
Once the players are victorious, have the antagonist be thankful and gladly reward them with the thing they needed and tell them that they can call on him again if they need help with other matters in the area. Maybe the antagonist presents themself as a collector of curiosities, or perhaps a trader of such things? Either way, try to make sure they have *something* that means the players are likely to seek them out again for further help.
Gradually they will begin to trust the antagonist, because they're working with them and it's working well.
edit: for me, the important distinction to be clear to yourself is - you are not deceiving the players - the npc is deceiving the characters. :)
First you need to ask yourself why would they trust him? What has he done to earn their trust? What has he done to make them distrust him?
This is something you'll have to build over several sessions. His actions are going to have to align with his words and those actions need to support the party and show that he is worth trusting. Is this person a quest-giver? If so, have him give them a quest that rewards them in some way, especially in a way that makes him seem sympathetic to them and whatever agenda they have. Maybe have him give them help in some way that was unexpected or required him to put himself at risk.
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"Most people are other people. Their thoughts are someone else's opinions, their lives a mimicry, their passions a quotation."
The easiest way would have been to have him seem unimportant and like an afterthought on your part. PCs always expect to get tricked because that's what DMs do. You have to build the character up and ease him into the PCs web.
The harder you try the more the PCs won't trust him as they know something is up when the DM keeps trying to get them to take bait.
Here is an easy fix. The PCs learn about Rogar (any name will do, I just felt a name made this easier), a half orc who has a raiding party that has been attacking travelers. Somehow they manage to learn that Rogar comes from the same town as the NPC in question. When the PCs go asking about Rogar they eventually learn he was once friends with the NPC.
PCs confront NPC. NPC diverges everything he knows about Rogar and mentions that they were once friends, but Rogar's drive toward darkness has cost them their friendship. The last part being a lie does open up to the possibility the PCs will learn he is lying. Everything else is true though. Rogar and him were friends (Rogar might even be under the impression they still are.) You can also craft a story that is entirely true, just with some missing information. Like Rogar and the NPC grew apart. (Leaving out of course it was because of their quest for power.)
The problem is they aren't trusting him as it would be most enjoyable for the story if he was trusted. This is because he will fool them into taking down his underlings so he can manipulate them into replacing them. Unfortunately this cannot happen if they figure him out at the beginning and having played several campaigns myself i feel it would be, for them, more exiting to have trusted him.
No, the problem is, it would be more enjoyable for you based on your experiences. That doesn't mean it would be more enjoyable for them. Indeed at this point they may feel rather put out at having to go from "HAH! We knew he was up to something. Now we have him!" to "So he was playing us for fools all along but you made us trust him and now we are really hosed. Thanks for nothing!"
If they don't want to trust the guy don't force them to. Let them be suspicious. Play it up even. And if they are so suspicious that they hesitate or even refuse when he asks them to take out his current flunkies, perhaps that will open up even more enjoyable options for the campaign.
Many years of D&D has taught me that trying to force the party in a certain direction because you, as the DM, want the story to go there - that's a bad thing to do.
Prepare your story and the npcs involved and let the players choose where their characters take the story - it might surprise you, but allowing real choice is a core part of the genius of RPG.
I am responding to this forum because I am working on my first D&D campaign that has the main antagonist be befriended by the players. I want to include at minimum three of them because they are spies sent forth part of a invasion force.
Do the old double double cross where he pretends to be their friend only to find out he really isn’t. And then they find that he was actually helping them all along, and being an evil bad guy was part of the plan. Oh also toss in a Mimic for good measure. Then they really never trust you again :)
Completely agree @tiktakkat, the issue is that forcing a plot line in a story where you and the party are writing the book is gonna call you issues....be fluid. Can u manipulate your story down another road?
So i have a group of four players who have just today started my campaign and they have already, unknowingly, met the main antagonist. The problem is they aren't trusting him as it would be most enjoyable for the story if he was trusted. This is because he will fool them into taking down his underlings so he can manipulate them into replacing them. Unfortunately this cannot happen if they figure him out at the beginning and having played several campaigns myself i feel it would be, for them, more exiting to have trusted him. How can i influence them into trusting him?
Ben varlow
Have him help the players with any personal sidequests they may have (vital information or items that may help)
Let NPCs gossip about how great he is when they're interacting with the players
Show the players how great he is whenever they go to see him (perhaps he's hosting a party for the orphanage or giving just judgement on a criminal)
Use the player's backgrounds with the NPC - He have ties with a character's family member/mentor/associate based on backgrounds
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D&D Beyond FoundersI've played a campaign where the DM did something very similar.
The key for me is to NOT OVERDO IT! If you try to force the issue and have the antagonist be too helpful, that's suspicious.
Instead - give the antagonist something that the party need (information, a map, a magic item - doesn't matter, but make it believable that they would be the person to have this thing anyway, or to be able to find it for them) and let them have to find them and convince them to help. Have the antagonist ask the party WHY he should trust them and assist them? This gives the players the opportunity to open up to the antagonist and work to make them an ally.
Then have the antagonist be a tough sell - they're convinced, but they won't do it for nothing - the party have to help him by doing a small quest for him. Have him send the party on a mission to save someone/something (it doesn't matter that he set-up the situation, just so the party could foil it). It could be a village being threatened by a supernatural creature they need to defeat (that he summoned/bargained with). It could be as simple as bandits that the antagonist hired (under an alias).
Once the players are victorious, have the antagonist be thankful and gladly reward them with the thing they needed and tell them that they can call on him again if they need help with other matters in the area. Maybe the antagonist presents themself as a collector of curiosities, or perhaps a trader of such things? Either way, try to make sure they have *something* that means the players are likely to seek them out again for further help.
Gradually they will begin to trust the antagonist, because they're working with them and it's working well.
edit: for me, the important distinction to be clear to yourself is - you are not deceiving the players - the npc is deceiving the characters. :)
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First you need to ask yourself why would they trust him? What has he done to earn their trust? What has he done to make them distrust him?
This is something you'll have to build over several sessions. His actions are going to have to align with his words and those actions need to support the party and show that he is worth trusting. Is this person a quest-giver? If so, have him give them a quest that rewards them in some way, especially in a way that makes him seem sympathetic to them and whatever agenda they have. Maybe have him give them help in some way that was unexpected or required him to put himself at risk.
"Most people are other people. Their thoughts are someone else's opinions, their lives a mimicry, their passions a quotation."
― Oscar Wilde.
The easiest way would have been to have him seem unimportant and like an afterthought on your part. PCs always expect to get tricked because that's what DMs do. You have to build the character up and ease him into the PCs web.
The harder you try the more the PCs won't trust him as they know something is up when the DM keeps trying to get them to take bait.
Thank you all, you've given me much to think about and plenty of ideas to use. Have a nice day.
Ben varlow
Here is an easy fix. The PCs learn about Rogar (any name will do, I just felt a name made this easier), a half orc who has a raiding party that has been attacking travelers. Somehow they manage to learn that Rogar comes from the same town as the NPC in question. When the PCs go asking about Rogar they eventually learn he was once friends with the NPC.
PCs confront NPC. NPC diverges everything he knows about Rogar and mentions that they were once friends, but Rogar's drive toward darkness has cost them their friendship. The last part being a lie does open up to the possibility the PCs will learn he is lying. Everything else is true though. Rogar and him were friends (Rogar might even be under the impression they still are.) You can also craft a story that is entirely true, just with some missing information. Like Rogar and the NPC grew apart. (Leaving out of course it was because of their quest for power.)
That doesn't mean it would be more enjoyable for them.
Indeed at this point they may feel rather put out at having to go from "HAH! We knew he was up to something. Now we have him!" to "So he was playing us for fools all along but you made us trust him and now we are really hosed. Thanks for nothing!"
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D&D Beyond FoundersSome good advice there!
Many years of D&D has taught me that trying to force the party in a certain direction because you, as the DM, want the story to go there - that's a bad thing to do.
Prepare your story and the npcs involved and let the players choose where their characters take the story - it might surprise you, but allowing real choice is a core part of the genius of RPG.
Pun-loving nerd | Faith Elisabeth Lilley | She/Her/Hers | Profile art by Becca Golins
If you need help with homebrew, please post on the homebrew forums, where multiple staff and moderators can read your post and help you!
"We got this, no problem! I'll take the twenty on the left - you guys handle the one on the right!"🔊
I am responding to this forum because I am working on my first D&D campaign that has the main antagonist be befriended by the players. I want to include at minimum three of them because they are spies sent forth part of a invasion force.
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Do the old double double cross where he pretends to be their friend only to find out he really isn’t. And then they find that he was actually helping them all along, and being an evil bad guy was part of the plan. Oh also toss in a Mimic for good measure. Then they really never trust you again :)
Completely agree @tiktakkat, the issue is that forcing a plot line in a story where you and the party are writing the book is gonna call you issues....be fluid. Can u manipulate your story down another road?
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