There are a lot of potential uses for bonus actions, which is another of the problems with 2WF. For example, applying hunter's mark is costing you at least one bonus action per fight.
So with the double bladed scimitar you use 2d4+ strength mod (Pretty sure), Where you are now rolling two very low values, you can effectively use the GWF, because now you have a fifty fifty on landing a 2 or below. (Assuming when you roll the die doesn't go down one instead of up.) Being forced to use the new roll is fine in this case as either you stay the same, subtract a maximum of 1, add 2, or add 1. With this I see no issue taking GWF.
Great Weapon Fighting wouldn't apply to the fire damage from the flame tongue, only the slashing damage directly from the greatsword.
When you roll a 1 or 2 on a damage die for an attack you make with a melee weapon that you are wielding with two hands, you can reroll the die and must use the new roll, even if the new roll is a 1 or a 2. The weapon must have the two-handed or versatile property for you to gain this benefit.
You can use a bonus action to speak this magic sword's command word, causing flames to erupt from the blade. These flames shed bright light in a 40-foot radius and dim light for an additional 40 feet. While the sword is ablaze, it deals an extra 2d6 fire damage to any target it hits. The flames last until you use a bonus action to speak the command word again or until you drop or sheathe the sword.
With Flame Tongue, the weapon itself deals the additional fire damage.
You're also forgetting by RAW (I know there is a big debate on this via RAI) this also affects Smite damage or anything else related to the weapon hit. Such as the extra damage some clerics do at lv 8 Holy weapon / Divine Favor
No, it doesn't. The wording of the feat is "an attack you make with a melee weapon..." Divine Smite is separate from and in addition to the attack you make with the weapon. The War Cleric's Divine Strike would be affected by RAW, because of how it's worded: "you can cause the attack to deal an extra 1d8 damage..." The attack itself is dealing extra damage, so GWF applies. This is not the case for Divine Smite: "you can expend one spell slot to deal radiant damage to the target..." You are dealing the extra damage, not the weapon attack, so no GWF bonus.
It's even better on double-bladed scimitar flame tongues.
2d6 will always be better than 2d4, the only reason the DBS is technically better is because of the extra attack it grants also gets the 2d6, and with Revenant you also get the +1 AC.
Yes, 2d6 is better, but the base damage dice of 1d4 makes the reroll of the dice more common, so you can use the benefits of the fighting style more often, and you get a free bonus action attack every round with another 2d6 fire damage +1d6 slashing damage.
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Yes, 2d6 is better, but the base damage dice of 1d4 makes the reroll of the dice more common, so you can use the benefits of the fighting style more often, and you get a free bonus action attack every round with another 2d6 fire damage +1d6 slashing damage.
The free bonus action attack is still only 1d4 slashing, not d6. And yes, the smaller dice (the d4s) will let you reroll more often, but the d6s will still reroll a lot, and they just straight up do more damage total. 3d4 is better than 2d6, but 2d6 still beats 2d4 overall. That is additional attack is what gets it done though simply because more attacks.
The average effect of GWF on 1d6 is +0.67 (1/3 chance of an average of +2), for an average per die of 4.17 (8.33 for 2d). The average effect on 1d4 is +0.50(1/2 chance of average of +1) for an average per die of 3 (6.0 for 2d).
The average effect of GWF on 1d6 is +0.67 (1/3 chance of an average of +2), for an average per die of 4.17 (8.33 for 2d). The average effect on 1d4 is +0.50(1/2 chance of average of +1) for an average per die of 3 (6.0 for 2d).
The average effect of GWF on 1d6 is +0.67 (1/3 chance of an average of +2), for an average per die of 4.17 (8.33 for 2d). The average effect on 1d4 is +0.50(1/2 chance of average of +1) for an average per die of 3 (6.0 for 2d).
Now, in the specific case of both being Flame Tongue, and say a 5th-level whatever for Extra Attack with a +3 Str Mod, what are the numbers? Two attacks*4d6 for the Flame TongueGreatsword Vs. (Two Attacks *[2d4+2d6])+(One attack*[1d4+2d6]) for the Flame Tonge Double-Bladed Scimitar? Please.
(Also, no one will have a flame-tongue below level 5, unless their DM is really really lenient, so your combo wins in 99% of cases of a flame-tongue greatsword with great weapon fighting.)
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And with a 3 level dip into Variant Ranger for the extra-extra attack from the Gloomstalker.... Can you say broken? Sure, I knew ya could.
Don’t get me wrong, the bonus action attack from the DBS still beats the Greatsword for overall damage, if their both Flame Tongue, as long as you never plan to do anything else with your BA.
Yeah, I've kind of run into that problem in the character I recently made for a ravenloft campaign. It's a high elf blood hunter with a DBS, but to start my crimson rite damage, it's a bonus action, so I do less damage on the first turn that I would with a greatsword or maul.
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And then if you MC Warlock for Hex.... Of course, you’re only doing a little less turn 1 compared to Greatsword, and then after that it picks up most turns.
The average effect of GWF on 1d6 is +0.67 (1/3 chance of an average of +2), for an average per die of 4.17 (8.33 for 2d). The average effect on 1d4 is +0.50(1/2 chance of average of +1) for an average per die of 3 (6.0 for 2d).
Now, in the specific case of both being Flame Tongue, and say a 5th-level whatever for Extra Attack with a +3 Str Mod, what are the numbers? Two attacks*4d6 for the Flame TongueGreatsword Vs. (Two Attacks *[2d4+2d6])+(One attack*[1d4+2d6]) for the Flame Tonge Double-Bladed Scimitar? Please.
Depends on how many attacks you lose due to other uses of bonus actions, or gain due to other attacks (opportunity attack, action surge, etc). The greatsword does +2.33 per hit, the bonus action attack is probably 16.33 (11.33 from dice, assumes +5 from strength), so as long as you get at least one secondary weapon attack per seven main hand attacks you're better off. Certain builds are very heavy on using bonus actions (for example, if you have Hex or Hunter's Mark you're losing at least one bonus action per combat to apply or retarget, and more if you've got multiple targets, and Great Weapon Mastery also uses a bonus action every time you change targets).
There are a lot of potential uses for bonus actions, which is another of the problems with 2WF. For example, applying hunter's mark is costing you at least one bonus action per fight.
Exactly what Pantagruel666 is getting at.
Sure it's nice to get an "allways there" bonus action to attack with. But theres other bonus actions you might want to take.
And if you wanted to you could take specific feats or class features to get bonus attacks using 2 weapon fighting (polearm master comes to mind).
The same thing goes for great weapon fighting. The savage attacker feat does pretty much the same thing.
Depending on what you intend to do, all fighting styles are valid. But all of them can also be subverted.
So with the double bladed scimitar you use 2d4+ strength mod (Pretty sure), Where you are now rolling two very low values, you can effectively use the GWF, because now you have a fifty fifty on landing a 2 or below. (Assuming when you roll the die doesn't go down one instead of up.) Being forced to use the new roll is fine in this case as either you stay the same, subtract a maximum of 1, add 2, or add 1. With this I see no issue taking GWF.
Flame Tongue Greatsword + GWFS is no joke.
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Great Weapon Fighting wouldn't apply to the fire damage from the flame tongue, only the slashing damage directly from the greatsword.
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With Flame Tongue, the weapon itself deals the additional fire damage.
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I stand corrected.
It's even better on double-bladed scimitar flame tongues.
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2d6 will always be better than 2d4, the only reason the DBS is technically better is because of the extra attack it grants also gets the 2d6, and with Revenant you also get the +1 AC.
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Yes, 2d6 is better, but the base damage dice of 1d4 makes the reroll of the dice more common, so you can use the benefits of the fighting style more often, and you get a free bonus action attack every round with another 2d6 fire damage +1d6 slashing damage.
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The free bonus action attack is still only 1d4 slashing, not d6. And yes, the smaller dice (the d4s) will let you reroll more often, but the d6s will still reroll a lot, and they just straight up do more damage total. 3d4 is better than 2d6, but 2d6 still beats 2d4 overall. That is additional attack is what gets it done though simply because more attacks.
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The average effect of GWF on 1d6 is +0.67 (1/3 chance of an average of +2), for an average per die of 4.17 (8.33 for 2d). The average effect on 1d4 is +0.50(1/2 chance of average of +1) for an average per die of 3 (6.0 for 2d).
My genius maths tutor for the win!
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Now, in the specific case of both being Flame Tongue, and say a 5th-level whatever for Extra Attack with a +3 Str Mod, what are the numbers? Two attacks*4d6 for the Flame Tongue Greatsword Vs. (Two Attacks *[2d4+2d6])+(One attack*[1d4+2d6]) for the Flame Tonge Double-Bladed Scimitar? Please.
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Yes, flame tongue greatsword is very good after level 5.
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(Also, no one will have a flame-tongue below level 5, unless their DM is really really lenient, so your combo wins in 99% of cases of a flame-tongue greatsword with great weapon fighting.)
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And with a 3 level dip into Variant Ranger for the extra-extra attack from the Gloomstalker.... Can you say broken? Sure, I knew ya could.
Don’t get me wrong, the bonus action attack from the DBS still beats the Greatsword for overall damage, if their both Flame Tongue, as long as you never plan to do anything else with your BA.
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Yeah, I've kind of run into that problem in the character I recently made for a ravenloft campaign. It's a high elf blood hunter with a DBS, but to start my crimson rite damage, it's a bonus action, so I do less damage on the first turn that I would with a greatsword or maul.
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And then if you MC Warlock for Hex.... Of course, you’re only doing a little less turn 1 compared to Greatsword, and then after that it picks up most turns.
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Depends on how many attacks you lose due to other uses of bonus actions, or gain due to other attacks (opportunity attack, action surge, etc). The greatsword does +2.33 per hit, the bonus action attack is probably 16.33 (11.33 from dice, assumes +5 from strength), so as long as you get at least one secondary weapon attack per seven main hand attacks you're better off. Certain builds are very heavy on using bonus actions (for example, if you have Hex or Hunter's Mark you're losing at least one bonus action per combat to apply or retarget, and more if you've got multiple targets, and Great Weapon Mastery also uses a bonus action every time you change targets).