Speaking personally, I think modern D&D could benefit from having a bit of Old School rules added in, such as Level Caps for non-humans (as a way of encouraging people to play Humans). Of course, I wouldn't make them a Hard Cap, but a Soft Cap: reach that level and you'll start paying an XP penalty to go up. Some class/race combos should basically be Unlimited (such as Wood Elves can advance Unlimited in Druid, etc). Maybe even bring back the +2 lvls for the Cap if you're Single Class.
Not sure how much good level caps would do. If you kept them as low as some in the old AD&D PHB (level 4 or 5 in a few cases) most people would have major objections, and if you upped them to 10+, most people would never see them because most campaigns just don't go that long before petering out.
It's one thing to say we're going to play old school, and we're going to use all those restrictions. It's another to suggest modern D&D should use them. We're looking at a player base who thinks that not having +2 in your class prime stat at level 1, and thus being at least a 17 at level 1 (if not more) in your prime stat makes your character "hopelessly broken." I can only imagine what such people would say if you dared tell them that instead, they can put their stat bonus anywhere they want, but if they play a cleric with this race they are capped at level 5.
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WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.
About a year and a half ago a few friends and I got nostalgic about the old days and we decided, screw it, let's do a one shot old school style. We used 1st edition B/X rules (classic Red Box), played it straight and ran Village of Homlett. We figured it would be a fun beer and pretzel night, something to have a good laugh about. No one in a million years thought that it would be anything more then that.
It took exactly one session for us to effectively dump 5e permanently and completely abandon modern D&D for what I think is pretty much going to be forever. A year and a half later, everyone in the group has sold their books, books we couldn't sell, we gave away. I don't see anyone in this group ever going back to modern D&D again, it's pretty much dead to us.
Certainly not what we expected to happen, I thought perhaps at best it was going to be a fun trek down memory lane, but it turned into a complete 180.
Today we do still play other old school systems and mess with various OSR games, but the primary game is B/X and AD&D.
Had a Similar experience.
Playing in a 5e game gave me to itch to play 1e and offered to DM a "one off" that ended up being anything but.
Picked up a POD copy of the RC as well, to experiment running a "Solo" game and starting to appreciate the race as class concept as well.
I have always preferred race as class, but I generally buy into the concept of human centric worlds where demihuman races are not just unique but very much not "human like" specifically and in fact are very alien and do not behave or value the same things as humans in the settings. Gygax tried to maintain this even when he did the split in AD&D, but what he introduced by doing that is slow and eventual "humanization" and move away from demihuman races being eccentric with their own unique limits and advantages resulting in what we have today where it all pretty much boils down to a ability score modifier and advantages with no real drawbacks to being demihuman.
I think Matt Colville touches on what I mean in this video, but essentially when you have race as class, when you pick for example being an Elf, the mechanics put narratively driven restrictions and direction on you. Its not an anything goes thing, your an Elf, that is a very specific thing and most importantly its specifically not human. In a way its kind of a very conscious and intentional attempt to be racist, to force the stereotypes and make them true. Elves are magical, dwarves are not. Distinct things that are reflected in the design of a human centric setting. When you choose an Elf you are doing a buy-in into being that fully, both mechanically and narratively and it becomes a character archetype that makes you distinctly different from any other type of character in the game. If your buy in includes the narrative constructs and your DM pushes those narrative queues, playing an Elf becomes a vastly different experience then playing any other character.
In my games when someone picks a Dwarf for example, everyone knows that this comes with clear and distinct advantages and problems, not just mechanical ones, but narrative ones. It will change the dynamics of the group and story in a measurable meaningful way. Its not just another character.
The game we want to play is far far different than the one a vocal minority wants to play, or that WOTC wants to produce.
I would be completely comfortable with specific species, or at least sub-species, being severely limited to what classes they can take. Can a Wood Elf be a Barbarian? There is an argument for that. But a High Elf? No way. I always had an issue with Elves being capped as Magic Users. They seemed to be a species that was a natural fit for the highest echelons of magic.
And those that MC 3 times??? The very first char I played back when I was a kid was a Elven Fighter/ Magic-User/ Thief (think the term was Thief back then). It was a mess, but fun, at first. My commando was able to do a little of everything, but quickly lost ground to pure class chars. With today's rules, it just seems wrong to be able to MC three times. The culture of your species allows some latitude with your career choices, but there must be limits on those choices.
That said, I would dearly love to marry the best of the old game with 5e. I love the Skill Checks of 5e. Now, those do flow against the narrative based version of Old School, but I found that smart, good players in Old School could and would step beyond the bounds of their char. A smart player playing a dumb char would still be the one to solve all the puzzles and tricks. The Skill Checks do mitigate that to some extent., though a smart player today still does run the show in a game.
If anything, the core species in the PHB should be differentiated even more, by physically and culturally, and the various new options of species done away with.
I have played and ran at least one adventure from 2E to 5E. OK, several Campaigns for 2E, 3/3.5E and 5E and only one adventure for 4E. And while I have a lot of books for first, I have never played or run a game of it. Every so often, I think about running a one shot I6 Ravenloft game in 1st to say I've done it, but never been able to pull the trigger on that. But I have my 1st edition PHP, MM, DMG and Unearthed Arcana signed by Gygax.
I have played and ran at least one adventure from 2E to 5E. OK, several Campaigns for 2E, 3/3.5E and 5E and only one adventure for 4E. And while I have a lot of books for first, I have never played or run a game of it. Every so often, I think about running a one shot I6 Ravenloft game in 1st to say I've done it, but never been able to pull the trigger on that. But I have my 1st edition PHP, MM, DMG and Unearthed Arcana signed by Gygax.
I would love to know what that would be appraised for.
I started in 2e, so I don’t technically count here, but yes, I do get nostalgic for the days when one started with 3-5 PCs to get that special one that survived to 5th level.
Now they’re all “special” from inception and the DM is a hateful murdering bastard if a player does something stupid and their character dies. 🙄
I started in 2e, so I don’t technically count here, but yes, I do get nostalgic for the days when one started with 3-5 PCs to get that special one that survived to 5th level.
Now they’re all “special” from inception and the DM is a hateful murdering bastard if a player does something stupid and their character dies. 🙄
Yup. The days when you needed at least a 15 Con to get any bonus to your HP, you couldn't get more than +2 HP per level if you weren't a fighter, you rolled for HP at first level, and you were simply dead once you dropped to 0 HP. Nothing quite like having a character automatically died from being poked by a goblin with a dagger.
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Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
I'm not going to dispute what you said. But when playing with adolescents that always believed the DM killed their character, when they DM they were out to kill your character. This was the big difference between me and my brother. He played the game against my party as DM. And I had to ask him if he understood he had all the power in the world to kill off my party whenever he wished, just add another ten skeletons, or bugbears or whatever. He never seemed to understand what I was talking about. And in truth Gygax had the same flavor in what he was doing.
I think I was doing it "right" in spite of the fact I was facing off against the kobolds and their daggers. The game was railroaded back then so you never had a choice unless the DM (1) gave you a choice and (2) made it clear you should consider your options.
I bet I would have enjoyed the games you participated in. Like Sun Tsu, I want to win before the battle begins. And I want to do it by "doing my homework" and finding out what I'm up against and what options we have.
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Cum catapultae proscriptae erunt tum soli proscript catapultas habebunt
I'm not sure I agree that the game was railroaded. If you read a lot of the old school modules, they are just maps with keys that tell you what's in each room, often with many different directions one can go to take a route around the dungeon. Sure, "going into the dungeon" is a railroad, but once in there, almost anything could happen.
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WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.
1st edition D&D was indeed a dangerous game, but the challenge posed to the players wasn't "can you manipulate the mechanics to your favor", it was a narrative game. You aren't supposed to let goblins stab you with daggers. Goblins are dangerous, daggers are dangerous... when you got in a fight in which you were relying on dice rolls to save you... you f'ed up somewhere.
As I recall (or at least, as the older games were stigmatized), the danger was in how easy it was to get stabbed (or whatever). "I take a step forward," "you set off a trap, take 5 damage," and whatnot. Technically, you had a choice, but many things were jacks-in-the-box. This would lead to a very paranoid play-20-questions-with-everything style of play.
(Note: my first TTRPG experience was with 2e, in summer camp, and I barely remember it. Though I did have a AD&D coloring book that dates from 1e...)
About a year and a half ago a few friends and I got nostalgic about the old days and we decided, screw it, let's do a one shot old school style. We used 1st edition B/X rules (classic Red Box), played it straight and ran Village of Homlett. We figured it would be a fun beer and pretzel night, something to have a good laugh about. No one in a million years thought that it would be anything more then that.
It took exactly one session for us to effectively dump 5e permanently and completely abandon modern D&D for what I think is pretty much going to be forever. A year and a half later, everyone in the group has sold their books, books we couldn't sell, we gave away. I don't see anyone in this group ever going back to modern D&D again, it's pretty much dead to us.
Certainly not what we expected to happen, I thought perhaps at best it was going to be a fun trek down memory lane, but it turned into a complete 180.
Today we do still play other old school systems and mess with various OSR games, but the primary game is B/X and AD&D.
Had a Similar experience.
Playing in a 5e game gave me to itch to play 1e and offered to DM a "one off" that ended up being anything but.
Picked up a POD copy of the RC as well, to experiment running a "Solo" game and starting to appreciate the race as class concept as well.
I have always preferred race as class, but I generally buy into the concept of human centric worlds where demihuman races are not just unique but very much not "human like" specifically and in fact are very alien and do not behave or value the same things as humans in the settings. Gygax tried to maintain this even when he did the split in AD&D, but what he introduced by doing that is slow and eventual "humanization" and move away from demihuman races being eccentric with their own unique limits and advantages resulting in what we have today where it all pretty much boils down to a ability score modifier and advantages with no real drawbacks to being demihuman.
I think Matt Colville touches on what I mean in this video, but essentially when you have race as class, when you pick for example being an Elf, the mechanics put narratively driven restrictions and direction on you. Its not an anything goes thing, your an Elf, that is a very specific thing and most importantly its specifically not human. In a way its kind of a very conscious and intentional attempt to be racist, to force the stereotypes and make them true. Elves are magical, dwarves are not. Distinct things that are reflected in the design of a human centric setting. When you choose an Elf you are doing a buy-in into being that fully, both mechanically and narratively and it becomes a character archetype that makes you distinctly different from any other type of character in the game. If your buy in includes the narrative constructs and your DM pushes those narrative queues, playing an Elf becomes a vastly different experience then playing any other character.
In my games when someone picks a Dwarf for example, everyone knows that this comes with clear and distinct advantages and problems, not just mechanical ones, but narrative ones. It will change the dynamics of the group and story in a measurable meaningful way. Its not just another character.
Interesting video, come across similar sentiments that PC Demi humans should be exemplars of their race in the game rather than the outlyers.
Think it was Bandit's Keep
In fumbling around world building for my 1e game, I ran into the issue of differentiate the Demi-Humans from the Humans, by Culture philosophy and outlook as well as abilities.
Class as race seemed to be the fit but as it is AD&D Demi-Humans can choose a Class, I am experimenting with Race Class choices being not just by Demi-Human race, but also by Demi-Human culture, and that Demi-Humans can only multiclass.
Thus Humans are single class by adventurer archetype, and Demi-Human archetypes are represented by Multi-Class Options, and those Multi-class options are informed not only by Demi-Human Race but also by Culture.
So the High Elven Theocracy will have Multi-Class Options that favour Clerics as one the classes, where as the High Elves of a Magiocracy will have Multi-Class Options that favour Magic-Users as one the classes, as a mechnaical way of supporting the background material
Still an iterative work in progress.
Though it is hardly Old School, you should have a read in Volo's and Mordenkainen's for aspects of culture of the non-human species. Mord's is best for Elves and Dwarves. You might get some inspiration from them.
I wrote a discussion about it and realized nobody cares, and deleted it. So I'll just say ... I guess we had radically different experiences in our youth.
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Cum catapultae proscriptae erunt tum soli proscript catapultas habebunt
I can really relate. I introduced my daughter to AD&D back when she was around 9/10ish with the original old books I'd used back at school in the early 80's. She loved rolling characters but was never quite able to convince her friends to play... but it obviously stuck with her as once at Uni she founds friends she could convince to play... and of course they got 5e... now 24 she regularly plays and her DM was saying he never gets to play... so she said her Dad might run an old-school campaign for them... which I am now doing! It blows their mind using AD&D rules lol but it's a lot of fun.
The main challenge initially was that all my books etc. had been lost along the way. But I managed to find PDF's and (Bless 'em) all the players clubbed together to get me some original hard copies of DM & Players handbook (surprisingly expensive these days!). The other challenges for me is that, having been exposed to 5e, the old rules seem clunky... and of course you don't have all the benefits of spell/monster access via D&D beyond etc... But I guess, if you're gonna go Old School... then it's old school all the way!
OK, I know I'm going to hit myself when I see the answer but... RC?
WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.
Speaking personally, I think modern D&D could benefit from having a bit of Old School rules added in, such as Level Caps for non-humans (as a way of encouraging people to play Humans). Of course, I wouldn't make them a Hard Cap, but a Soft Cap: reach that level and you'll start paying an XP penalty to go up. Some class/race combos should basically be Unlimited (such as Wood Elves can advance Unlimited in Druid, etc). Maybe even bring back the +2 lvls for the Cap if you're Single Class.
Not sure how much good level caps would do. If you kept them as low as some in the old AD&D PHB (level 4 or 5 in a few cases) most people would have major objections, and if you upped them to 10+, most people would never see them because most campaigns just don't go that long before petering out.
It's one thing to say we're going to play old school, and we're going to use all those restrictions. It's another to suggest modern D&D should use them. We're looking at a player base who thinks that not having +2 in your class prime stat at level 1, and thus being at least a 17 at level 1 (if not more) in your prime stat makes your character "hopelessly broken." I can only imagine what such people would say if you dared tell them that instead, they can put their stat bonus anywhere they want, but if they play a cleric with this race they are capped at level 5.
WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.
The game we want to play is far far different than the one a vocal minority wants to play, or that WOTC wants to produce.
I would be completely comfortable with specific species, or at least sub-species, being severely limited to what classes they can take. Can a Wood Elf be a Barbarian? There is an argument for that. But a High Elf? No way. I always had an issue with Elves being capped as Magic Users. They seemed to be a species that was a natural fit for the highest echelons of magic.
And those that MC 3 times??? The very first char I played back when I was a kid was a Elven Fighter/ Magic-User/ Thief (think the term was Thief back then). It was a mess, but fun, at first. My commando was able to do a little of everything, but quickly lost ground to pure class chars. With today's rules, it just seems wrong to be able to MC three times. The culture of your species allows some latitude with your career choices, but there must be limits on those choices.
That said, I would dearly love to marry the best of the old game with 5e. I love the Skill Checks of 5e. Now, those do flow against the narrative based version of Old School, but I found that smart, good players in Old School could and would step beyond the bounds of their char. A smart player playing a dumb char would still be the one to solve all the puzzles and tricks. The Skill Checks do mitigate that to some extent., though a smart player today still does run the show in a game.
If anything, the core species in the PHB should be differentiated even more, by physically and culturally, and the various new options of species done away with.
I have played and ran at least one adventure from 2E to 5E. OK, several Campaigns for 2E, 3/3.5E and 5E and only one adventure for 4E. And while I have a lot of books for first, I have never played or run a game of it. Every so often, I think about running a one shot I6 Ravenloft game in 1st to say I've done it, but never been able to pull the trigger on that. But I have my 1st edition PHP, MM, DMG and Unearthed Arcana signed by Gygax.
That is awesome.
WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.
I would love to know what that would be appraised for.
I started in 2e, so I don’t technically count here, but yes, I do get nostalgic for the days when one started with 3-5 PCs to get that special one that survived to 5th level.
Now they’re all “special” from inception and the DM is a hateful murdering bastard if a player does something stupid and their character dies. 🙄
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Yup. The days when you needed at least a 15 Con to get any bonus to your HP, you couldn't get more than +2 HP per level if you weren't a fighter, you rolled for HP at first level, and you were simply dead once you dropped to 0 HP. Nothing quite like having a character automatically died from being poked by a goblin with a dagger.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
Hey now. Us DMs are and always have been hateful murdering bastards, and we don't need no stinking player's help with that either!
Want to start playing but don't have anyone to play with? You can try these options: [link].
BigLizzy,
I'm not going to dispute what you said. But when playing with adolescents that always believed the DM killed their character, when they DM they were out to kill your character. This was the big difference between me and my brother. He played the game against my party as DM. And I had to ask him if he understood he had all the power in the world to kill off my party whenever he wished, just add another ten skeletons, or bugbears or whatever. He never seemed to understand what I was talking about. And in truth Gygax had the same flavor in what he was doing.
I think I was doing it "right" in spite of the fact I was facing off against the kobolds and their daggers. The game was railroaded back then so you never had a choice unless the DM (1) gave you a choice and (2) made it clear you should consider your options.
I bet I would have enjoyed the games you participated in. Like Sun Tsu, I want to win before the battle begins. And I want to do it by "doing my homework" and finding out what I'm up against and what options we have.
Cum catapultae proscriptae erunt tum soli proscript catapultas habebunt
I'm not sure I agree that the game was railroaded. If you read a lot of the old school modules, they are just maps with keys that tell you what's in each room, often with many different directions one can go to take a route around the dungeon. Sure, "going into the dungeon" is a railroad, but once in there, almost anything could happen.
WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.
As I recall (or at least, as the older games were stigmatized), the danger was in how easy it was to get stabbed (or whatever). "I take a step forward," "you set off a trap, take 5 damage," and whatnot. Technically, you had a choice, but many things were jacks-in-the-box. This would lead to a very paranoid play-20-questions-with-everything style of play.
(Note: my first TTRPG experience was with 2e, in summer camp, and I barely remember it. Though I did have a AD&D coloring book that dates from 1e...)
Though it is hardly Old School, you should have a read in Volo's and Mordenkainen's for aspects of culture of the non-human species. Mord's is best for Elves and Dwarves. You might get some inspiration from them.
BigLizzy,
I agree with you.
And to you and BioWiz ...
I wrote a discussion about it and realized nobody cares, and deleted it. So I'll just say ... I guess we had radically different experiences in our youth.
Cum catapultae proscriptae erunt tum soli proscript catapultas habebunt
Cooool!
Mystic v3 should be official, nuff said.
I have only played 5e, what's THACO, the ability scores?, like MSH's FASERIP?
Mystic v3 should be official, nuff said.