I can't say that I don't feel like Rising should be discounted for Wayfinders owners by the price of Wayfinders. If you're charging people to playtest for you, that charge should at least be able to be credited towards the final product.
I'm just going to echo myself here. I know this probably is more WotC's fault rather than DDB; but it's incredibly bad form to not at least give us credit for the price already paid.
I agree, the happy medium is either a discount for having WGTE or at least the standard discount for content already unlocked.
Do you get a discount to Xanathar’s Guide if you already own some of the content through the Storm Coast Adventurer’s Guide?
That’s not relevant, but also my question wasn’t meant to make a point. It’s a sincere question that I don’t know the answer to. Either this release is consistent with how they’ve done content overlap in the past, which may be bad but at least is consistent, or it isn’t, which is both bad AND inconsistent.
I don't know the answer to your question, but I will point out this situation is different than past overlap as SCAG was not considered playtest material for Xanathar's, nor was it merely a subset of what was in Xanathar's.
I don't know the answer to your question, but I will point out this situation is different than past overlap as SCAG was not considered playtest material for Xanathar's, nor was it merely a subset of what was in Xanathar's.
Right but everyone who owns the Wayfinder’s Guide still owns all of the official out-of-playtest content in the official out-of-playtest Wayfinder’s Guide. Wayfinder’s Guide is no longer playtest, it is official, and everyone who owns it still owns it and all its content. Some of that content overlaps with content in a different book: Rising from the Last War. This situation, two separate, official books each containing some of the same content, has occurred before. I’m just asking if it was handled the same way then.
My understanding is that Wayfinder's is, at least mechanically speaking, entirely contained within Rising. As such, it feels like a pretty far stretch to say that the books merely "overlap" rather than Rising simply being the final product of the playtesting in Wayfinder's.
I understand the reasoning behind your question, but my argument is that even if Xanathar's wasn't discounted for content owned from SCAG (again, I don't know if it was or not), the situation with Wayfinder's and Rising is different enough that I don't think it establishes consistency.
My understanding is that Wayfinder's is, at least mechanically speaking, entirely contained within Rising. As such, it feels like a pretty far stretch to say that the books merely "overlap" rather than Rising simply being the final product of the playtesting in Wayfinder's.
I understand the reasoning behind your question, but my argument is that even if Xanathar's wasn't discounted for content owned from SCAG (again, I don't know if it was or not), the situation with Wayfinder's and Rising is different enough that I don't think it establishes consistency.
Seems kind of scummy to sell playtest material....the fact that the contents of Wayfinder was prepared and sold as an official book to me suggests it is not playtest material. If it is and is now considered obsolete then it is especially scummy to then force those who purchased it to have to purchase another book to get access to what they already paid for.
Either they were scums who charged their customers money for playtest material that is now useless (seeing as the content in it that differs from the new book is not available anymore) and are forcing the customers to spend more money for essentially the same thing....
or...they are scums who are selling a product in which a large chunk of it is the same as a previous product with slight modifications to try and justify charging their customers again for essentially what they already purchased.
I think WotC ate some stupid pills when designing this and should have handled it by introducing new subraces or variants rather than retconning past material that they sold. If they disliked the design of the races and other things so much they should have handled it at the playtest phase like they did for the artificer class which was actual playtest material.
Fortunately, I also got a pdf of WGtE when I bought it on DM's Guild. As far as I am concerned, that is more official that what WotC is forcing upon us by the FORCED changes to what we already bought and own. DDB has no choice but to enforce WotC's stupid Dait & Switch tactic. In the long run I believe WotC will be forced by law to either revert WGtE to what it was , or reimburse every one for what they have taken away from us. I see a potential lawsuit in the future if enough of us feel the same way.
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Watch your back, conserve your ammo, and NEVER cut a deal with a dragon!
This reminds me of the WotC online character builder for 4E. Every time they'd make official changes to 4E, they force it on the builder and ruin characters that you had been playing for months.
We understand this point all too well and will always do our best to ensure that any existing characters aren't updated without the knowledge of the player.
Any warforged/artificer/changeling etc that was created prior to the release of Eberron: Rising from the Last War, will continue to use the pre-release version of the class/race, unless you manually change it.
Not good enough, I bought certain versions of races and would like to continue playing them and would like my players to play them. I want the choice to use either version I purchased otherwise my trust in DDB will plummet and I will cease to use it for fear of my purchases disappearing. At least with hard copies I can guarantee that they won't suddenly change or have large chunks be locked from my use whether I liked those sections or not.
This isn't just a matter of the ebberon content, the manner in which DDB handles this will dictate expectations for the future and whether your customers feel they can trust you enough to risk their money on purely digital content.
Regardless - I own Wayfinder's. However, I do not see any updates and the artificer class is not available to me in character generation if I have playtest materials off.... I thought it was supposed to be updated for today?
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D&D since 79. New to the Carolinas and looking for Gamers.
Xanathars getting some of the SCAG subclasses (and some of the EE spells) is nothing like this. Xanathars was a splatbook designed to contain most non-setting specific stuff that had came out, as well as some UA stuff.
While I do not disagree with you, it should be noted that WGtE was clearly labeled and sold as playtest material and it was no secret that it would change.
Yeah, it *really clearly* stated that Wayfinder's was playtest content, and that any content in it that is eventually incorporated into an official release would be updated to the officially released version. No need to get snippy with WotC and DDB because you didn't read the description of what you were buying. (Effectively, what you were buying was *early access* to the first draft of the Eberron material.)
My understanding is that Wayfinder's is, at least mechanically speaking, entirely contained within Rising. As such, it feels like a pretty far stretch to say that the books merely "overlap" rather than Rising simply being the final product of the playtesting in Wayfinder's.
I understand the reasoning behind your question, but my argument is that even if Xanathar's wasn't discounted for content owned from SCAG (again, I don't know if it was or not), the situation with Wayfinder's and Rising is different enough that I don't think it establishes consistency.
Seems kind of scummy to sell playtest material....the fact that the contents of Wayfinder was prepared and sold as an official book to me suggests it is not playtest material. If it is and is now considered obsolete then it is especially scummy to then force those who purchased it to have to purchase another book to get access to what they already paid for.
To clarify here, Wayfinder's was indeed sold as playtest material that would be updated to official versions later when the mechanics became finalized. That is essentially what has been done. What was not clear at the time of sale was that all finalized mechanics would appear in a different, much more complete book. The expectation given to customers was that the finalized books would be complementary, rather than Rising superseding Wayfinder's. I'm assuming WotC changed their mind on this at some point, which is understandable as development changes -- however, they should have also changed their approach to selling these two products when that decision was made.
Assuming WotC doesn't change their stance and either offer to refund Wayfinder's or credit its price toward the purchase of Rising, then I sincerely hope they know they can never pull one of these "living document" products ever again, with so many of their loyal customers feeling like they've been schemed. If they do try, they have to deal with the customers they burned that will shout from the rooftops to warn against ever buying content that's still in playtest again.
I have no problem with what they are doing with WGTE. All of it was playtest material, them changing it is perfectly fine, especially for an official release. I do wish that the purchasers got something, anything, however (like, i know it sounds weird, but like, their account name printed in the back? or maybe some form of thanks. Or a discount for online purchases). Like, if wizards website gave purchasers of the WGTE a coupon for 10% off their next purchase, I would have no problem.
What this whole incident has taught us as a playerbase, methinks, is that we do not buy "Living Document" shit the next time. Yes, okay, I get it - the sold-like gangbusters nature of Wayfinder's Guide is why we got Rising at all. In that way we're going to see this same trend again whenever they do another variant setting book - the setting's diehard adherents will jump on it, people who want to experiment will feel forced to jump on it, the 'Living Document' playtest will be an obvious rustle, and we'll go through this whole song and dance again.
I would posit that both Wizards and DDB need to learn from this, because right now nobody is happy. The people who bought the (admittedly egregiously overpowered) UA "Living Document" options are pissed that their stuff is now getting taken from them. The folks who bought Wayfinder's Guide figuring that "Living Document" meant they would have what they needed to play Eberron updated over time are pissed now that their 'Living Document' is officially dead. Even the people who just bought Rising normally, without buying Wayfinder's, get to feel their own purchase tarnished by the shenanery and skullduggery surrounding this mess.
Nah, just the unhappy people are the vocal ones. I have no problem with it.
I bought Wayfinder's. Do I still have access to every option from that document that I might need to play a game in an Eberron setting? Yup. Perfectly functional and well worth the $25.
Am I going to buy Rising from the Last War too? Yup. Mainly because I want the much more extensive setting info that wasn't included in Wayfinder's. At $25 (I have a bundle discount, but anyone can use a coupon code or something) it's still a fair price.
(WOTC, next time, if you are going to release expanded playtest content as a "living document", please, for the love of god, give some extra benefit to the people that actually purchase it. Or just use surveys, honestly that would be better).
The old books is years older. It's unlikely that a more comprehensive sourcebook wasn't planned at the time. So I'm not sure why you feel as though you were deceived. If you have the old book, don't buy the new book unless you want it, that's pretty simple.
At a glance, it looks like the lore is complimentary, additional, or simply reprint. I mean, they're a company and they're in the business of making and selling printed and electronic books. If I wasn't keeping my collection complete and current, I wouldn't buy the new book either, but I am, so I did.
I would be happy if Wizards or DDB gave me a discounted or free copy of the new edition, since there's overlap but uh, they have no obligations to do so. They aren't screwing over customers by not doing so either.
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Do you get a discount to Xanathar’s Guide if you already own some of the content through the Storm Coast Adventurer’s Guide?
Tbf saga, xanathars didnt come out talking about how it was "the real, OFFICIAL forgotten realms book"
That’s not relevant, but also my question wasn’t meant to make a point. It’s a sincere question that I don’t know the answer to. Either this release is consistent with how they’ve done content overlap in the past, which may be bad but at least is consistent, or it isn’t, which is both bad AND inconsistent.
I don't know the answer to your question, but I will point out this situation is different than past overlap as SCAG was not considered playtest material for Xanathar's, nor was it merely a subset of what was in Xanathar's.
Right but everyone who owns the Wayfinder’s Guide still owns all of the official out-of-playtest content in the official out-of-playtest Wayfinder’s Guide. Wayfinder’s Guide is no longer playtest, it is official, and everyone who owns it still owns it and all its content. Some of that content overlaps with content in a different book: Rising from the Last War. This situation, two separate, official books each containing some of the same content, has occurred before. I’m just asking if it was handled the same way then.
My understanding is that Wayfinder's is, at least mechanically speaking, entirely contained within Rising. As such, it feels like a pretty far stretch to say that the books merely "overlap" rather than Rising simply being the final product of the playtesting in Wayfinder's.
I understand the reasoning behind your question, but my argument is that even if Xanathar's wasn't discounted for content owned from SCAG (again, I don't know if it was or not), the situation with Wayfinder's and Rising is different enough that I don't think it establishes consistency.
Seems kind of scummy to sell playtest material....the fact that the contents of Wayfinder was prepared and sold as an official book to me suggests it is not playtest material. If it is and is now considered obsolete then it is especially scummy to then force those who purchased it to have to purchase another book to get access to what they already paid for.
Either they were scums who charged their customers money for playtest material that is now useless (seeing as the content in it that differs from the new book is not available anymore) and are forcing the customers to spend more money for essentially the same thing....
or...they are scums who are selling a product in which a large chunk of it is the same as a previous product with slight modifications to try and justify charging their customers again for essentially what they already purchased.
I think WotC ate some stupid pills when designing this and should have handled it by introducing new subraces or variants rather than retconning past material that they sold. If they disliked the design of the races and other things so much they should have handled it at the playtest phase like they did for the artificer class which was actual playtest material.
Fortunately, I also got a pdf of WGtE when I bought it on DM's Guild. As far as I am concerned, that is more official that what WotC is forcing upon us by the FORCED changes to what we already bought and own. DDB has no choice but to enforce WotC's stupid Dait & Switch tactic. In the long run I believe WotC will be forced by law to either revert WGtE to what it was , or reimburse every one for what they have taken away from us. I see a potential lawsuit in the future if enough of us feel the same way.
Watch your back, conserve your ammo,
and NEVER cut a deal with a dragon!
Not good enough, I bought certain versions of races and would like to continue playing them and would like my players to play them. I want the choice to use either version I purchased otherwise my trust in DDB will plummet and I will cease to use it for fear of my purchases disappearing. At least with hard copies I can guarantee that they won't suddenly change or have large chunks be locked from my use whether I liked those sections or not.
This isn't just a matter of the ebberon content, the manner in which DDB handles this will dictate expectations for the future and whether your customers feel they can trust you enough to risk their money on purely digital content.
Regardless - I own Wayfinder's. However, I do not see any updates and the artificer class is not available to me in character generation if I have playtest materials off.... I thought it was supposed to be updated for today?
D&D since 79. New to the Carolinas and looking for Gamers.
Xanathars getting some of the SCAG subclasses (and some of the EE spells) is nothing like this. Xanathars was a splatbook designed to contain most non-setting specific stuff that had came out, as well as some UA stuff.
While I do not disagree with you, it should be noted that WGtE was clearly labeled and sold as playtest material and it was no secret that it would change.
She/Her Player and Dungeon Master
Yeah, it *really clearly* stated that Wayfinder's was playtest content, and that any content in it that is eventually incorporated into an official release would be updated to the officially released version. No need to get snippy with WotC and DDB because you didn't read the description of what you were buying. (Effectively, what you were buying was *early access* to the first draft of the Eberron material.)
To clarify here, Wayfinder's was indeed sold as playtest material that would be updated to official versions later when the mechanics became finalized. That is essentially what has been done. What was not clear at the time of sale was that all finalized mechanics would appear in a different, much more complete book. The expectation given to customers was that the finalized books would be complementary, rather than Rising superseding Wayfinder's. I'm assuming WotC changed their mind on this at some point, which is understandable as development changes -- however, they should have also changed their approach to selling these two products when that decision was made.
Assuming WotC doesn't change their stance and either offer to refund Wayfinder's or credit its price toward the purchase of Rising, then I sincerely hope they know they can never pull one of these "living document" products ever again, with so many of their loyal customers feeling like they've been schemed. If they do try, they have to deal with the customers they burned that will shout from the rooftops to warn against ever buying content that's still in playtest again.
I have no problem with what they are doing with WGTE. All of it was playtest material, them changing it is perfectly fine, especially for an official release. I do wish that the purchasers got something, anything, however (like, i know it sounds weird, but like, their account name printed in the back? or maybe some form of thanks. Or a discount for online purchases). Like, if wizards website gave purchasers of the WGTE a coupon for 10% off their next purchase, I would have no problem.
What this whole incident has taught us as a playerbase, methinks, is that we do not buy "Living Document" shit the next time. Yes, okay, I get it - the sold-like gangbusters nature of Wayfinder's Guide is why we got Rising at all. In that way we're going to see this same trend again whenever they do another variant setting book - the setting's diehard adherents will jump on it, people who want to experiment will feel forced to jump on it, the 'Living Document' playtest will be an obvious rustle, and we'll go through this whole song and dance again.
I would posit that both Wizards and DDB need to learn from this, because right now nobody is happy. The people who bought the (admittedly egregiously overpowered) UA "Living Document" options are pissed that their stuff is now getting taken from them. The folks who bought Wayfinder's Guide figuring that "Living Document" meant they would have what they needed to play Eberron updated over time are pissed now that their 'Living Document' is officially dead. Even the people who just bought Rising normally, without buying Wayfinder's, get to feel their own purchase tarnished by the shenanery and skullduggery surrounding this mess.
It's not cool.
Please do not contact or message me.
Hopefully everyone learned a lesson: Do not buy or sell "playtest" material.
She/Her Player and Dungeon Master
Nah, just the unhappy people are the vocal ones. I have no problem with it.
I bought Wayfinder's. Do I still have access to every option from that document that I might need to play a game in an Eberron setting? Yup. Perfectly functional and well worth the $25.
Am I going to buy Rising from the Last War too? Yup. Mainly because I want the much more extensive setting info that wasn't included in Wayfinder's. At $25 (I have a bundle discount, but anyone can use a coupon code or something) it's still a fair price.
(WOTC, next time, if you are going to release expanded playtest content as a "living document", please, for the love of god, give some extra benefit to the people that actually purchase it. Or just use surveys, honestly that would be better).
The old books is years older. It's unlikely that a more comprehensive sourcebook wasn't planned at the time. So I'm not sure why you feel as though you were deceived. If you have the old book, don't buy the new book unless you want it, that's pretty simple.
At a glance, it looks like the lore is complimentary, additional, or simply reprint. I mean, they're a company and they're in the business of making and selling printed and electronic books. If I wasn't keeping my collection complete and current, I wouldn't buy the new book either, but I am, so I did.
I would be happy if Wizards or DDB gave me a discounted or free copy of the new edition, since there's overlap but uh, they have no obligations to do so. They aren't screwing over customers by not doing so either.