It seems logical that although an echo cant give flanking advantage it seems ILLogical that when attacking THRU the echo you cant get advantage if your ally is flanking,
If you have echo knight Pew, they can't get flanking advantage like this:
However, then can get flanking advantage (but not grant it to their ally Ellohir*), like this:
Because when Pew attacks from the echos space, it's still Pew attacking (not the echo)
*Edit: As Emmber pointed out, Ellohir would grant advantage to Pew on their turn when Pew attacks from the echo's space, but Ellohir wouldn't have advantage on their turn because Pew wouldn't be in the echos space.
The Echo is You and You can't flank with yourself. That should be simple enough to grasp. But based on the logic of that last point, you could have simultaneous advantage on two separate enemies even if the battles are up to 30' apart, since nowhere is it written that your attacks must be on the same target.
ie: Pew and ally A are engaged with enemy 1 and in flanking position, both gaining advantage. Pew's Echo and Ally B are 20' away, engaged with enemy 2, and in flanking position, both gaining advantage. Net result is every attack from Pew or his Echo's position have advantage. It would be akin to 5 creatures standing in an straight line: Ally A, Enemy 1, Pew, Enemy 2, Ally B. Pew, in the middle of two enemies and having multiple attacks, could turn to Enemy 1 and attack with advantage, then turn to Enemy 2 and attack with advantage.
Davedemon - I don't really agree with your second picture assessment. Ellohir (the ally) cannot gain flanking because the Echo is not a creature. Not even if you've attacked the flanked enemy through the Echo that turn.
Pew's Echo and Ally B are 20' away, engaged with enemy 2, and in flanking position, both gaining advantage.
No. Ally B wouldn't have advantage because it's not in flanking - because the Echo is not a creature and Flanking requires both allies to be creatures.
I agree with that. Either it grants flanking and can flank with the PC, or it does not grant flanking and no one gets the advantage. I just based that scenario off of Davedamon's second graphic.
Davedemon - I don't really agree with your second picture assessment. Ellohir (the ally) cannot gain flanking because the Echo is not a creature. Not even if you've attacked the flanked enemy through the Echo that turn.
Pew's Echo and Ally B are 20' away, engaged with enemy 2, and in flanking position, both gaining advantage.
No. Ally B wouldn't have advantage because it's not in flanking - because the Echo is not a creature and Flanking requires both allies to be creatures.
That's a very good point, Pew can get flanking from Ellohir, but not the other way around as Pew isn't present in their echos space unless they're attacking from it. I'll edit my graphic
So referring back to the scenario I posted above, Pew would have advantage fighting 2 separate enemies, Ally A would have Advantage, and Ally B would not. Net result is still Pew has Advantage on every attack.
Ally A has flanking advantage with the Echo Knight against Orc A on their turn
The Echo Knight has flanking advantage with Ally A against Orc A and against Orc B with Ally B on their turn, should they attack from their echo's space
Ally B does not have flanking advantage on their turn because the echo isn't an ally
Some possible exceptions:
Ally B could get advantage if it readied an attack action for when the Echo Knight makes an attack from their echo's position (as at that point, they're occupying/attacking from the space)
Yes, that is exactly what I mean. Thanks for the visual representation. However, in your possible exception there is an issue. In order for Ally B to gain advantage, the Knight would have to teleport swap with the Echo. The Knight's attacks come through the Echo, but it occupies it's own space and the Knight remains at their position. It's convaluted, but I believe that's how it works.
I am starting a campaign as an Echo Knight this week, so I'm trying to make sure I'm as clear as I can be on these rules. So my takeaway from this breaks down to:
No flanking with yourself. Period.
Allies can only get flank advantage with the PC, not the Echo.
The PC can flank and attack with advantage 2 separate enemies simultaneously. (3 at lvl18)
Yes, that is exactly what I mean. Thanks for the visual representation. However, in your possible exception there is an issue. In order for Ally B to gain advantage, the Knight would have to teleport swap with the Echo. The Knight's attacks come through the Echo, but it occupies it's own space and the Knight remains at their position. It's convaluted, but I believe that's how it works.
I am starting a campaign as an Echo Knight this week, so I'm trying to make sure I'm as clear as I can be on these rules. So my takeaway from this breaks down to:
No flanking with yourself. Period.
Allies can only get flank advantage with the PC, not the Echo.
The PC can flank and attack with advantage 2 separate enemies simultaneously. (3 at lvl18)
Ally A has flanking advantage with the Echo Knight against Orc A on their turn
The Echo Knight has flanking advantage with Ally A against Orc A and against Orc B with Ally B on their turn, should they attack from their echo's space
Ally B does not have flanking advantage on their turn because the echo isn't an ally
I think you're inserting language that doesn't exist. There's nothing about the echo feature that suggests the echo knight switches places with the echo when they make an attack from the echo's space, even momentarily. The attack originates from the echo's space, but that doesn't mean the echo knight is in that space. If the echo knight isn't in that space, the attack can't benefit from flanking.
Mechanically, it's much more like Thorn Whip, which is a melee attack that can be initiated from up to 30 feet away or Spiritual Weapon, which is similar, and I believe the narrative intent is that your echo is making the attack, not that you're temporarily swapping places with it. If you want to actually be in the echo's space to get a flanking bonus, you can use your bonus action to actually swap places. You can even do this between attacks, so you can get a flanking bonus on two different enemies. You just can't get that for free.
I can get onboard with that logic as well, though I would say there is a case to be made that since it is the PC's attack opposite of the PC's ally, flanking would apply. Similar to how the PC can make an opportunity attack if a creature leaves the Echo's reach. The condition exists at the Echo's location, but the PC's action/reaction apply regardless of their location.
I think that they can use their bonus action to swap places between attacks, but I may be wrong.
I would say the swap can be done between the main action and Action Surge, but not between a first attack and Extra Attack since they are tied to the same action.
I can get onboard with that logic as well, though I would say there is a case to be made that since it is the PC's attack opposite of the PC's ally, flanking would apply. Similar to how the PC can make an opportunity attack if a creature leaves the Echo's reach. The condition exists at the Echo's location, but the PC's action/reaction apply regardless of their location.
The reason you can make an AoO from the echo’s location is that there’s a specific feature that says you can do that. There is no specific feature that says you can fulfill the flanking condition.
If you try to make the case that there’s a general rule of “since that’s where the attack is from, that’s where you count as being for flanking purposes on that attack,” then you have to allow it for Spiritual Weapon as well. And if you want to do that, that’s fine! I’m not interested in trying to argue that that’s a bad idea. But I think most people can agree it’s not RAW.
I think that they can use their bonus action to swap places between attacks, but I may be wrong.
I would say the swap can be done between the main action and Action Surge, but not between a first attack and Extra Attack since they are tied to the same action.
It's been stated in the SAC that there's no rule that prevents you from taking a bonus action in the middle of another action.
The idea of getting flanking bonus while attacking through the Echo as shown in DaveDemon's picture (Echo - Orc B - Ally B) was really iffy to me - so I didn't comment on it. The text only says the attack originates from the Echo's space or the player's space.
Like Saga said - that doesn't mean the player is in that space at the time - and because it's just the Echo (and *yawn repeating myself* it's not creature) it can't get flanking. So I totally agree with what Saga said. The Echo Knight can only get advantage from flanking if they attack from their own space. If you want to get advantage on both enemies then you'll need to swap places with the Echo between attacks with your Bonus Action.
"The terrain is my ally" is a metaphor. To say straight-faced that a wall is your ally is a serious stretch of the English language.
It seems logical that although an echo cant give flanking advantage it seems ILLogical that when attacking THRU the echo you cant get advantage if your ally is flanking,
If you have echo knight Pew, they can't get flanking advantage like this:
However, then can get flanking advantage (but not grant it to their ally Ellohir*), like this:
Because when Pew attacks from the echos space, it's still Pew attacking (not the echo)
*Edit: As Emmber pointed out, Ellohir would grant advantage to Pew on their turn when Pew attacks from the echo's space, but Ellohir wouldn't have advantage on their turn because Pew wouldn't be in the echos space.
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The Echo is You and You can't flank with yourself. That should be simple enough to grasp. But based on the logic of that last point, you could have simultaneous advantage on two separate enemies even if the battles are up to 30' apart, since nowhere is it written that your attacks must be on the same target.
ie: Pew and ally A are engaged with enemy 1 and in flanking position, both gaining advantage. Pew's Echo and Ally B are 20' away, engaged with enemy 2, and in flanking position, both gaining advantage. Net result is every attack from Pew or his Echo's position have advantage. It would be akin to 5 creatures standing in an straight line: Ally A, Enemy 1, Pew, Enemy 2, Ally B. Pew, in the middle of two enemies and having multiple attacks, could turn to Enemy 1 and attack with advantage, then turn to Enemy 2 and attack with advantage.
Does that track?
Davedemon - I don't really agree with your second picture assessment. Ellohir (the ally) cannot gain flanking because the Echo is not a creature. Not even if you've attacked the flanked enemy through the Echo that turn.
Because of this:
No. Ally B wouldn't have advantage because it's not in flanking - because the Echo is not a creature and Flanking requires both allies to be creatures.
Mega Yahtzee Thread:
Highest 41: brocker2001 (#11,285).
Yahtzee of 2's: Emmber (#36,161).
Lowest 9: JoeltheWalrus (#312), Emmber (#12,505) and Dertinus (#20,953).
I agree with that. Either it grants flanking and can flank with the PC, or it does not grant flanking and no one gets the advantage. I just based that scenario off of Davedamon's second graphic.
That's a very good point, Pew can get flanking from Ellohir, but not the other way around as Pew isn't present in their echos space unless they're attacking from it. I'll edit my graphic
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So referring back to the scenario I posted above, Pew would have advantage fighting 2 separate enemies, Ally A would have Advantage, and Ally B would not. Net result is still Pew has Advantage on every attack.
So we're talking this scenario?
In this scenario per RAW:
Some possible exceptions:
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Yes, that is exactly what I mean. Thanks for the visual representation. However, in your possible exception there is an issue. In order for Ally B to gain advantage, the Knight would have to teleport swap with the Echo. The Knight's attacks come through the Echo, but it occupies it's own space and the Knight remains at their position. It's convaluted, but I believe that's how it works.
I am starting a campaign as an Echo Knight this week, so I'm trying to make sure I'm as clear as I can be on these rules. So my takeaway from this breaks down to:
I believe this to be correct.
She/Her Player and Dungeon Master
I think you're inserting language that doesn't exist. There's nothing about the echo feature that suggests the echo knight switches places with the echo when they make an attack from the echo's space, even momentarily. The attack originates from the echo's space, but that doesn't mean the echo knight is in that space. If the echo knight isn't in that space, the attack can't benefit from flanking.
Mechanically, it's much more like Thorn Whip, which is a melee attack that can be initiated from up to 30 feet away or Spiritual Weapon, which is similar, and I believe the narrative intent is that your echo is making the attack, not that you're temporarily swapping places with it. If you want to actually be in the echo's space to get a flanking bonus, you can use your bonus action to actually swap places. You can even do this between attacks, so you can get a flanking bonus on two different enemies. You just can't get that for free.
Crap... I have misspoken. The PC would get the Flanking bonus IF they swap places with the Echo.
I think that they can use their bonus action to swap places between attacks, but I may be wrong.
She/Her Player and Dungeon Master
I can get onboard with that logic as well, though I would say there is a case to be made that since it is the PC's attack opposite of the PC's ally, flanking would apply. Similar to how the PC can make an opportunity attack if a creature leaves the Echo's reach. The condition exists at the Echo's location, but the PC's action/reaction apply regardless of their location.
I would say the swap can be done between the main action and Action Surge, but not between a first attack and Extra Attack since they are tied to the same action.
The reason you can make an AoO from the echo’s location is that there’s a specific feature that says you can do that. There is no specific feature that says you can fulfill the flanking condition.
If you try to make the case that there’s a general rule of “since that’s where the attack is from, that’s where you count as being for flanking purposes on that attack,” then you have to allow it for Spiritual Weapon as well. And if you want to do that, that’s fine! I’m not interested in trying to argue that that’s a bad idea. But I think most people can agree it’s not RAW.
It's been stated in the SAC that there's no rule that prevents you from taking a bonus action in the middle of another action.
It's not the same though, as you have to command SW to attack and then it makes it's own attack. It's not the PC's attack.
It very explicitly is the PC's attack. Read the spell text: "...you can make a melee spell attack against a creature within 5 feet of the weapon..."
The idea of getting flanking bonus while attacking through the Echo as shown in DaveDemon's picture (Echo - Orc B - Ally B) was really iffy to me - so I didn't comment on it. The text only says the attack originates from the Echo's space or the player's space.
Like Saga said - that doesn't mean the player is in that space at the time - and because it's just the Echo (and *yawn repeating myself* it's not creature) it can't get flanking. So I totally agree with what Saga said. The Echo Knight can only get advantage from flanking if they attack from their own space. If you want to get advantage on both enemies then you'll need to swap places with the Echo between attacks with your Bonus Action.
Mega Yahtzee Thread:
Highest 41: brocker2001 (#11,285).
Yahtzee of 2's: Emmber (#36,161).
Lowest 9: JoeltheWalrus (#312), Emmber (#12,505) and Dertinus (#20,953).