Quote from xOnelove >>

RAW i would agree with you but conceptually speaking what Ichigo9182 says makes a lot of sense.

Scenario is a goblin fighter. he's facing the player and the player makes an echo behind the goblin. the echo swings at the goblin and then the goblin turns to defend the attack and then the player attacks.

you don't think this would provide an advantage in combat? i do

 In a real world scenario yes.

As a game mechanic no.

Right! I can see why they made sure the wording deals just with attack and the description makes sure that you know its not a creature. Auto flanking would break the game with this and give it a serious advantage that would not work well with standard mechanics. But if I'm DM I would let one attack roll with advantage as long as the player splits up the attacks. But that's only because if I had an echo knight in the party I would plan for such trickery Muah ha ha ha.

I agree with you whole heartedly 

I honestly don't see how auto-flanking by an attackable 1 HP class feature affects balance more than auto-flanking by a Battle Smith's Steel Defender, a Ranger's Animal Companion or even just an Owl Familiar using "Help" during its flyby...

It makes sense that threats that can't be attacked like Spiritual Weapon don't give you advantage, but imho a flanking echo wouldn't affect class balancing any more than other features. If anything the Samurai should be boosted to be competitive with other classes. :D

Imho RAW is quite clear that the echo doesn't flank, but if I ever encounter a player who uses this feature he will get the advantage... and my monsters will smash his echo at their first chance.

Flanking is an optional rule in the first place and as multiple people already pointed out it would be quite stupid from an in-world perspective not to have any advantage from your echo.

Quote from Naresea >>

Imho RAW is quite clear that the echo doesn't flank, but if I ever encounter a player who uses this feature he will get the advantage... and my monsters will smash his echo at their first chance.

Except that won't achieve anything (it will in-fact be in the players benefit to have their Echo be attacked instead of themselves). The Echo Knight will just remake a new Echo using their bonus action on the start of their next turn and get advantage on all their attacks again. The Echo Knight has very few uses of their bonus action and they can make an Echo every single turn - so it's virtually no cost at all to them. It would be OP - and it's ruled the way it is for that very reason.

Quote from Emmber >>

Quote from Naresea >>

Imho RAW is quite clear that the echo doesn't flank, but if I ever encounter a player who uses this feature he will get the advantage... and my monsters will smash his echo at their first chance.

Except that won't achieve anything (it will in-fact be in the players benefit to have their Echo be attacked instead of themselves). The Echo Knight will just remake a new Echo using their bonus action on the start of their next turn and get advantage on all their attacks again. The Echo Knight has very few uses of their bonus action and they can make an Echo every single turn - so it's virtually no cost at all to them. It would be OP - and it's ruled the way it is for that very reason.

If you run the optional flanking rule, here is a comprehensive list of all classes that can get auto-advantage from it at no action cost:

- all players that know the rule, regardless of class.

Sorry, but in 5e there is absolutely no difficulty in gaining flanking advantage, since AOOs are limited to only trigger when you leave an enemy's reach. There is no reason at all not to circle an enemy. Even if some other enemy was involved one player taking the "Disengage" option is enough to grant the entire party advantage.

Beastmasters, Battlesmiths, and Paladins with Find Steed can even gain that advantage without help from a fellow player. As can Bladesingers (Greater Invisibility), Hexblade-Chain-Locks (Invisible Imp Familiar help), anyone with the ability to cast "Find Familiar" and pick an Owl...

If everyone is OP, nobody is. And if you're really concerned about balancing against features like the Samurai: don't use the optional flanking and facing rules, since they will give advantage to virtually every player on every attack if your players are smart.

Quote from Naresea >>

Quote from Emmber >>

Quote from Naresea >>

Imho RAW is quite clear that the echo doesn't flank, but if I ever encounter a player who uses this feature he will get the advantage... and my monsters will smash his echo at their first chance.

Except that won't achieve anything (it will in-fact be in the players benefit to have their Echo be attacked instead of themselves). The Echo Knight will just remake a new Echo using their bonus action on the start of their next turn and get advantage on all their attacks again. The Echo Knight has very few uses of their bonus action and they can make an Echo every single turn - so it's virtually no cost at all to them. It would be OP - and it's ruled the way it is for that very reason.

 

If you run the optional flanking rule, here is a comprehensive list of all classes that can get auto-advantage from it at no action cost:

- all players that know the rule, regardless of class.

Sorry, but in 5e there is absolutely no difficulty in gaining flanking advantage, since AOOs are limited to only trigger when you leave an enemy's reach. There is no reason at all not to circle an enemy. Even if some other enemy was involved one player taking the "Disengage" option is enough to grant the entire party advantage.

Beastmasters, Battlesmiths, and Paladins with Find Steed can even gain that advantage without help from a fellow player. As can Bladesingers (Greater Invisibility), Hexblade-Chain-Locks (Invisible Imp Familiar help), anyone with the ability to cast "Find Familiar" and pick an Owl...

If everyone is OP, nobody is. And if you're really concerned about balancing against features like the Samurai: don't use the optional flanking and facing rules, since they will give advantage to virtually every player on every attack if your players are smart.

 When you run your games, do what you want.  But that doesn't change the Rules as Written. 

Quote from Naresea >>

Beastmasters, Battlesmiths, and Paladins with Find Steed can even gain that advantage without help from a fellow player. As can Bladesingers (Greater Invisibility), Hexblade-Chain-Locks (Invisible Imp Familiar help), anyone with the ability to cast "Find Familiar" and pick an Owl...

 Steeds are laughably frail as are familiars and they are a limited resource; invisibility is likewise a heavily limited resource. As for Beastmasters and Battlesmiths, flanking is factored into their balance and their companions have limited resources to stay alive. Echoes are infinite and creatures focusing on them is actually good for the party because they're wasting actions. Nothing is lost when they are hit and no resources are required to make another. You can't just say "X can flank so it's fine for any class feature." There are other balancing factors.

I do agree with you, flanking and sneak from an echo is game breaking.

Quote from scatterbraind >>

Arguing intent is all well and good, but you also need to consider the intent behind class balance. As others have pointed out, a flanking echo provides an advantage far beyond comparable subclasses such as Samurai. Echo knight is totally viable and competitive without giving out free flanking like candy, so in the interest of game design it really shouldn't.

 I agree 100% flanking and sneak bonuses using the echo is game breaking

As I understand from the wording of the echo knight abilities, while you sustain the Echo Avatar for the ten minute duration you can use your attack from the echo because you are only deafened and blinded so if you say teleport your echo  to the boss you can attack, so you can send two echos at eighteenth level, how does that work with attacking from the echo ?

Also the Echo makes a great villain that way so I don't have to worry about absolutely mauling my players, I just teleport the echo and they fight it

Quote from AlistarThefatalpotato >>

so you can send two echos at eighteenth level, how does that work with attacking from the echo ?

You just choose which echo does the attack when you make it.

Because of this:

When you take the Attack action on your turn, any attack you make with that action can originate from your space or the echo’s space. You make this choice for each attack.

And this:

Flanking on Squares. When a creature and at least one of its allies are adjacent to an enemy and on opposite sides or corners of the enemy’s space, they flank that enemy, and each of them has advantage on melee attack rolls against that enemy.

While it's unclear if you can attack using your echo as the flanking partner, your echo can clearly use you as the flanking partner.  Just put the echo on the other side, and you can threaten from your side.  Make the attack rolls from the echo's side, basically either it's not a threat so it counts as an unseen attack, or it is at threat and you are a creature and ally (unless you hate yourself) and can be used for your echo to get the flanking bonus.

I'd say each attack has a 50/50 chance of the flanking bonus since they have to guess which side it's coming from.  Guess right, no bonus, buess wrong, flanked.

The echo never attacks, you attack from the echo's position. Every time you attack from the echo's position, the echo is in your former position.

This combined with the fact the echo is a magical object and not a creature is why you can't flank with your echo.

Quote from Skavies >>

While it's unclear if you can attack using your echo as the flanking partner, your echo can clearly use you as the flanking partner.

The rules aren't unclear. A creature and an ally (another creature) have to both take part in order to flank. The Echo is not a creature and so cannot give or receive the flanking bonus. This has been made very clear from the beginning.

An echo isn't a threat or an enemy. It is essentially just a portal for your attacks.

An echo isn't a threat or an enemy. It is essentially just a portal for your attacks.

Quote from Davedamon >>

Every time you attack from the echo's position, the echo is in your former position.

 I'm really not understanding what you mean by the echo is in your former position. Attacking through the echo does not, as I understand it, switch your position. That would require the bonus action teleport swap. Nor does it have be in a position you were previously in to attack. I might be completely missing your point, though.

Quote from Skavies >>

Because of this:

When you take the Attack action on your turn, any attack you make with that action can originate from your space or the echo’s space. You make this choice for each attack.

And this:

Flanking on Squares. When a creature and at least one of its allies are adjacent to an enemy and on opposite sides or corners of the enemy’s space, they flank that enemy, and each of them has advantage on melee attack rolls against that enemy.

While it's unclear if you can attack using your echo as the flanking partner, your echo can clearly use you as the flanking partner.  Just put the echo on the other side, and you can threaten from your side.  Make the attack rolls from the echo's side, basically either it's not a threat so it counts as an unseen attack, or it is at threat and you are a creature and ally (unless you hate yourself) and can be used for your echo to get the flanking bonus.

 

I'd say each attack has a 50/50 chance of the flanking bonus since they have to guess which side it's coming from.  Guess right, no bonus, buess wrong, flanked.

 This has been gone over several times.  Per RAW the Echo does not provide a Flanking bonus nor does it benefit from a flanking bonus.  Per RAI the Echo does not provide a Flanking bonus nor does it benefit from a flanking bonus.

Any thing else is homebrew rules.