So if this hypothetical class had a telekinetic power, you would not consider it a new mechanic if it referenced the Telekinesis spell?
Yes, because that is spellcasting. It's not a new system if it is the old system.
Yeah I'm just trying to suss out how much of it you'd need changed for it to be considered 'new.' What if they said you didn't need any of the components?
No, too broken. Also, if it even says the words "Telekinesis spell" as a reference, that's too close.
What I mean as a new system is that it is a new system. Completely new in design.
Like, telekinesis is a 5th level spell. You don't want to have to wait to have to level 9 to have telekinesis as a Psion, there should be an ability similar to this, but fundamentally different.
For example, when you choose your subclass at whatever level, you can have access to a Telekinesis ability. At the base level you get it, you can move objects of a certain weight, and nothing heavier, and no creatures yet. This would then proceed to be increase as level, eventually letting you move creatures, and stuff like that.
So, eventually, it accomplishes an effect similar to the Telekinesis spell, but you have access to it earlier, you can move huge objects and creatures around at higher levels, and have certain abilities that the spell wouldn't allow you to do.
Think of it like when Yoda is training Luke how to lift rocks. Eventually, Luke can lift an X-wing, but he had to start with small rocks.
So if this hypothetical class had a telekinetic power, you would not consider it a new mechanic if it referenced the Telekinesis spell?
Yes, because that is spellcasting. It's not a new system if it is the old system.
Yeah I'm just trying to suss out how much of it you'd need changed for it to be considered 'new.' What if they said you didn't need any of the components?
No, too broken. Also, if it even says the words "Telekinesis spell" as a reference, that's too close.
What I mean as a new system is that it is a new system. Completely new in design.
Like, telekinesis is a 5th level spell. You don't want to have to wait to have to level 9 to have telekinesis as a Psion, there should be an ability similar to this, but fundamentally different.
For example, when you choose your subclass at whatever level, you can have access to a Telekinesis ability. At the base level you get it, you can move objects of a certain weight, and nothing heavier, and no creatures yet. This would then proceed to be increase as level, eventually letting you move creatures, and stuff like that.
So, eventually, it accomplishes an effect similar to the Telekinesis spell, but you have access to it earlier, you can move huge objects and creatures around at higher levels, and have certain abilities that the spell wouldn't allow you to do.
Think of it like when Yoda is training Luke how to lift rocks. Eventually, Luke can lift an X-wing, but he had to start with small rocks.
That’s how the system I have been writing worked.
Yep, I know. Just explaining it to the people not caught up with the other threads.
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1) The original 2e Psionicist was not just a reskin of Wizard (before there were Sorcerers or Warlocks).
2) If all they do is Psi Points then it would be just a reskin of Sorcerer, that’s why I’m so excited by this new PsiDie mechanic because they could expand that and then it would not just be a reskin of something else.
3) Psionics can = Magic, I never said it shouldn’t. What I did say is that Psionics=/=Spellcasting. Big difference. Chanel Divinity is still magic, just not Spellcasting. Divine Smite is Magic, just not Spellcasting. Aura abilities are magic, just not Spellcasting. Bardic Inspiration is Magic, just not Spellcasting. An Arcane Archer uses Magic, just not Spellcasting. Should I keep going?
4) Why do a Psion and a Sorcerer have to fill the same role?
1) Sure, but the powers it could employ were very similar. 3e laid bare the fact that PSPs could be easily converted into an equivalent spell slot allocation.
2+3) I'm not going to complain there, but just remember, the psi die isn't going to substitute for the actual mechanic that the psionic subclass uses to cast (if any). All of these mechanics you list are complements to casting, not substitutes (minus arcane shot, which isn't really casting at all). Channel Divinity causes minor magical effects (generally), but doesn't remove the need for the cleric to access spells. Nobody will be satisfied with a psion that has psi dice but not casting. But what you're saying is that you'd be okay with the psion having access to spells, just not by using spell slots, yeah?
4) They both serve as flexible casters.
Look, we don't really need to go deeper than the following: most people who want a different casting system simply hate spell slots altogether. And that's fine. But given that D&D has embraced this system, you're better off revamping the system altogether in your games rather than demanding one type of character be crafted with a duplicative alternate. Clearly the devs have devoted more time on this than any other UA to try and square this circle.
Re: 1) Yes, because when they made 3e, they basically took the 2e Psionicist and reskinned it as the Sorcerer and just replaced the psi powers with spells.
Re: 2+3) If those “Chanel Divinity”ish powers worked the way Levi described Telekinesis, and got as powerful as 9th-level spells, then yeah, no need for spells. No, I agree 100% with Levi, the only way a “Psionicist” should cast spells is if they multiclass, or take the Magic Initiate feat.
Re: 4) So does a Bard, or a Warlock, or a Wizard, depending on how you build them. And a Psionicist could never serve as a “flexible caster” since they shouldn’t cast spells. I thought we went over that part already?
Let me be clear, I don’t want a “duplicative alternative,” I want something completely different. If two different things that move stuff telekinetically are just “duplicative alternatives” then the spell list is already full of them in many ways. I don’t want that, I want something different.
I would like a system that takes a “duplicative alternative” of Mage Hand + Catapult + Telekinesis + Levitate + Bigby’s Hand + Fly + whatever else, all thrown in a blender, poured out as an all-in-one-smoothie that starts out as a baby version for a level 1 character, and grows into the “Jean Grey style telekinesis” all in one ability without any need for spells whatsoever. And then I want them to do it for all the general “Psychic” tropes so they can be the subclasses.
Hm, okay so in the setting how would character who doesn't know about the mechanics of the system tell a psion apart from just another type of inborn spellcaster?
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Canto alla vita alla sua bellezza ad ogni sua ferita ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
Is that a good enough example, everyone? Similar effects, way different mechanics.
Plugging in the psi-dice could be tricky, but it could be used to regain psi points, determine how many times a day you can use the telekinesis/other psionic abilities, stuff like that.
I'm sure Wizards of the Coast would find it pretty easy to work with.
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Hm, okay so in the setting how would character who doesn't know about the mechanics of the system tell a psion apart from just another type of inborn spellcaster?
Psion wouldn't need material or verbal components for their abilities (probably somatic, though) . They would possibly not be effected by antimagic fields. They would do fundamentally different things.
They would function differently and be visibly different.
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Hm, okay so in the setting how would character who doesn't know about the mechanics of the system tell a psion apart from just another type of inborn spellcaster?
Psion wouldn't need material or verbal components for their abilities (probably somatic, though) . They would possibly not be effected by antimagic fields. They would do fundamentally different things.
They would function differently and be visibly different.
They would have to be affected by antimagic for game balance. Remember, Psionics=Magic, just not “spellcasting.”
Hm, okay so in the setting how would character who doesn't know about the mechanics of the system tell a psion apart from just another type of inborn spellcaster?
How would that same character tell a Sorcerer from a Warlock from a Druid? Is it the clothes? The hair?
“Oh my! Those two people just turned into wolves and ran away!” Which one was the Bard casting Polymorph and which one was the Druid using Wild Shape? If D&D has room for both Polymorph and Wild Shape, it has room for Psionics as another legitimate class who can use magic without casting spells, just like Wild Shape, Song of Rest, all the Barbarian stuff, the Rune Knight who doesn’t cast Enlarge/Reduce, etc.
Hm, okay so in the setting how would character who doesn't know about the mechanics of the system tell a psion apart from just another type of inborn spellcaster?
Psion wouldn't need material or verbal components for their abilities (probably somatic, though) . They would possibly not be effected by antimagic fields. They would do fundamentally different things.
They would function differently and be visibly different.
They would have to be affected by antimagic for game balance. Remember, Psionics=Magic, just not “spellcasting.
Yes, I agree, for balance it would likely have to count as magic, but it isn't spellcasting. I just said they might not be affected by it because of that text block in the most recent UA discussing it.
Hm, okay so in the setting how would character who doesn't know about the mechanics of the system tell a psion apart from just another type of inborn spellcaster?
How would that same character tell a Sorcerer from a Warlock from a Druid? Is it the clothes? The hair?
“Oh my! Those two people just turned into wolves and ran away!” Which one was the Bard casting Polymorph and which one was the Druid using Wild Shape? If D&D has room for both Polymorph and Wild Shape, it has room for Psionics as another legitimate class who can use magic without casting spells, just like Wild Shape, Song of Rest, all the Barbarian stuff, the Rune Knight who doesn’t cast Enlarge/Reduce, etc.
Yes, similar outcomes, different mechanics. They function differently, look similar, but have different outcomes. Druids retain their mental scores while wild shaped, while a druid with polymorph doesn't. Also, there's a difference in the CR beast you can be. There's different mechanics enough to be noticeable.
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Since we're in the realm of speculation, the way I'm envisioning it psionics could be divided into something like "latent psionics" and "empowered psionics", similarly to how there's a soft distinction between cantrips and leveled spells; in this instance, latent psionics could be effects that naturally use the psionic dice with the normal chance to shrink or grow in size, whereas empowered psionics necessitate a reduction in dice size regardless of number rolled. Latent psionics could also function without triggering antimagic effects, whereas empowered psionics would. I could also see there being a point system with a full psionicist that uses a limited pool to increase the dice size after it's been reduced, and possibly(?) be used to power other features as well.
Of course, this all speculation and homebrew, but whaddya think?
Since we're in the realm of speculation, the way I'm envisioning it psionics could be divided into something like "latent psionics" and "empowered psionics", similarly to how there's a soft distinction between cantrips and leveled spells; in this instance, latent psionics could be effects that naturally use the psionic dice with the normal chance to shrink or grow in size, whereas empowered psionics necessitate a reduction in dice size regardless of number rolled. Latent psionics could also function without triggering antimagic effects, whereas empowered psionics would. I could also see there being a point system with a full psionicist that uses a limited pool to increase the dice size after it's been reduced, and possibly(?) be used to power other features as well.
Of course, this all speculation and homebrew, but whaddya think?
Yes. Actually, that was more or less pretty much how I was thinking of adapting what I had been working on to the new Psi Die system. I was gonna make it three tier actually. The bottom tier wouldn’t proc antimagic, and also wouldn’t boom/bust the die either, safe Cantrip level powers. The middle tier would work the way it does in the UA with the random die, the top tile would always decrease the die size immediately after use. That top tier at least would have to be susceptible to antimagic.
I gotta ask: if getting a Psionicist makes me happy, and you don’t give a crap either way, then why you gotta poopoo my fun? “You’re marsh in’ my mellow man.” (Man, Woman, Other, person of indeterminate gender.)
Just make it the way you want (ask the DnD if you can use a home brew class)
Except, it is better to have official content, because we're not game designers, and it is both their job to design games and mechanics, and also they're better at it than the average DM.
It's better to have official content, because then it's official.
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Actually, for the homebrew Psionicist I have been working on, I used a mechanic that basically hybridized (Martial Arts Die)+(Sorcery Points)+(Superiority Dice) but to simplify it I separated it into “Psionic Arts Die” and “Psi Points” so people wouldn’t complain/get confused. In the end I did shift subclass to 1st level for streamlining and they also had “Metapsionics.”
Instead of spells at all the points fuel powers that work like a combination of Eldritch Invocations and Chanel Divinity powers that autoscale the same way Warlock Spell Slots do. I have been quite frankly making exactly the Psionicist everyone expected except with no spells.
But included some of my ideas into the UA surveys, maybe somebody listened because that’s basically what they gave us, except they replaced the points with the boom/bust mechanic, and quite frankly, I LOVE IT.
If they just dropped Spellcasting altogether and let us choose class features (like the die uses that the Rogue and Fighter got) the same way a known spellcaster chooses spells, and everything just proc/trigger die uses, I would be all over it like white on rice.
And people will freak out “Oh, you can’t let people pick their stuff!! It will be anarchy!! That’s why you need leveled spell slots!!” Did you see those higher level powers? Would you want to “choose” that at 3rd level?!? Heck no! You could pop twice a day and that’s it. And if I higher level character skips the automatic-die-shrinking powers in favor of a slew of lower level powers, so what? That’s like a Sorcerer learning nothing but 1st and 2nd-level spells.
I'm all ears. Do you have a public draft anywhere?
The Pro-Psionics argument is that they don't actually want a spellcaster at all. While the effects are inherently magical in nature, and may interact with Anti-magic effects where appropriate, Psionic abilities are not spells, and do not interact with the spell system in any way, shape, or form beyond the potential with Anti-magic effects. Instead, they're looking for a new class that has all of its features revolving around using the force of the mind, instead of manipulating the Weave and all of that.
They don't want to cast the Telekinesis, with all of its requirements, limitations, and capabilities. They want to use a class feature that can do some other thing, that may overlap with the effects possible with the spell Telekinesis at some level in the class vs some spell slot level of Telekinesis. They want another ability that allows them to use the Shove action from ~30 feet away using the Attack action. They want a feature that doesn't do damage, but as an action they can force creatures within 10 feet to make a STR or CON save or be knocked Prone (something that a lot of people would say is overlap with the spell Thunderwave).
I can actually see that working pretty well. And it's not inventing some new system, either, which seems to be the fear of all the anti-Psionics arguments. It's a set of text based abilities, like the Rogue's Sneak Attack or the Fighter's Action Surge. We're not reinventing the wheel of making spells without calling them spells, and using points instead of slots.
The Pro-Psionics argument is that they don't actually want a spellcaster at all. While the effects are inherently magical in nature, and may interact with Anti-magic effects where appropriate, Psionic abilities are not spells, and do not interact with the spell system in any way, shape, or form beyond the potential with Anti-magic effects. Instead, they're looking for a new class that has all of its features revolving around using the force of the mind, instead of manipulating the Weave and all of that.
They don't want to cast the Telekinesis, with all of its requirements, limitations, and capabilities. They want to use a class feature that can do some other thing, that may overlap with the effects possible with the spell Telekinesis at some level in the class vs some spell slot level of Telekinesis. They want another ability that allows them to use the Shove action from ~30 feet away using the Attack action. They want a feature that doesn't do damage, but as an action they can force creatures within 10 feet to make a STR or CON save or be knocked Prone (something that a lot of people would say is overlap with the spell Thunderwave).
I can actually see that working pretty well. And it's not inventing some new system, either, which seems to be the fear of all the anti-Psionics arguments. It's a set of text based abilities, like the Rogue's Sneak Attack or the Fighter's Action Surge. We're not reinventing the wheel of making spells without calling them spells, and using points instead of slots.
I can see this working, but I would also think that a class with a bunch of text based powers shouldn't have too many of them. I would think an upper limit of I dunno, maybe twelve powers? Otherwise it gets way too cumbersome. Would that few powers be satisfying enough as a class for people who want psions?
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I sing to life and to its tragic beauty To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
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That’s how the system I have been writing worked.
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I want a new system and I don't hate spell slots. I just hate it when they try to represent the Psion with spellcasting.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
Yep, I know. Just explaining it to the people not caught up with the other threads.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
Re: 1) Yes, because when they made 3e, they basically took the 2e Psionicist and reskinned it as the Sorcerer and just replaced the psi powers with spells.
Re: 2+3) If those “Chanel Divinity”ish powers worked the way Levi described Telekinesis, and got as powerful as 9th-level spells, then yeah, no need for spells. No, I agree 100% with Levi, the only way a “Psionicist” should cast spells is if they multiclass, or take the Magic Initiate feat.
Re: 4) So does a Bard, or a Warlock, or a Wizard, depending on how you build them. And a Psionicist could never serve as a “flexible caster” since they shouldn’t cast spells. I thought we went over that part already?
Let me be clear, I don’t want a “duplicative alternative,” I want something completely different. If two different things that move stuff telekinetically are just “duplicative alternatives” then the spell list is already full of them in many ways. I don’t want that, I want something different.
I would like a system that takes a “duplicative alternative” of Mage Hand + Catapult + Telekinesis + Levitate + Bigby’s Hand + Fly + whatever else, all thrown in a blender, poured out as an all-in-one-smoothie that starts out as a baby version for a level 1 character, and grows into the “Jean Grey style telekinesis” all in one ability without any need for spells whatsoever. And then I want them to do it for all the general “Psychic” tropes so they can be the subclasses.
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Hm, okay so in the setting how would character who doesn't know about the mechanics of the system tell a psion apart from just another type of inborn spellcaster?
Canto alla vita
alla sua bellezza
ad ogni sua ferita
ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty
To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me
The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
Is that a good enough example, everyone? Similar effects, way different mechanics.
Plugging in the psi-dice could be tricky, but it could be used to regain psi points, determine how many times a day you can use the telekinesis/other psionic abilities, stuff like that.
I'm sure Wizards of the Coast would find it pretty easy to work with.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
Psion wouldn't need material or verbal components for their abilities (probably somatic, though) . They would possibly not be effected by antimagic fields. They would do fundamentally different things.
They would function differently and be visibly different.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
They would have to be affected by antimagic for game balance. Remember, Psionics=Magic, just not “spellcasting.”
How would that same character tell a Sorcerer from a Warlock from a Druid? Is it the clothes? The hair?
“Oh my! Those two people just turned into wolves and ran away!” Which one was the Bard casting Polymorph and which one was the Druid using Wild Shape? If D&D has room for both Polymorph and Wild Shape, it has room for Psionics as another legitimate class who can use magic without casting spells, just like Wild Shape, Song of Rest, all the Barbarian stuff, the Rune Knight who doesn’t cast Enlarge/Reduce, etc.
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Yes, I agree, for balance it would likely have to count as magic, but it isn't spellcasting. I just said they might not be affected by it because of that text block in the most recent UA discussing it.
Yes, similar outcomes, different mechanics. They function differently, look similar, but have different outcomes. Druids retain their mental scores while wild shaped, while a druid with polymorph doesn't. Also, there's a difference in the CR beast you can be. There's different mechanics enough to be noticeable.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
Since we're in the realm of speculation, the way I'm envisioning it psionics could be divided into something like "latent psionics" and "empowered psionics", similarly to how there's a soft distinction between cantrips and leveled spells; in this instance, latent psionics could be effects that naturally use the psionic dice with the normal chance to shrink or grow in size, whereas empowered psionics necessitate a reduction in dice size regardless of number rolled. Latent psionics could also function without triggering antimagic effects, whereas empowered psionics would. I could also see there being a point system with a full psionicist that uses a limited pool to increase the dice size after it's been reduced, and possibly(?) be used to power other features as well.
Of course, this all speculation and homebrew, but whaddya think?
Yes. Actually, that was more or less pretty much how I was thinking of adapting what I had been working on to the new Psi Die system. I was gonna make it three tier actually. The bottom tier wouldn’t proc antimagic, and also wouldn’t boom/bust the die either, safe Cantrip level powers. The middle tier would work the way it does in the UA with the random die, the top tile would always decrease the die size immediately after use. That top tier at least would have to be susceptible to antimagic.
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I gotta ask: if getting a Psionicist makes me happy, and you don’t give a crap either way, then why you gotta poopoo my fun? “You’re marsh in’ my mellow man.” (Man, Woman, Other, person of indeterminate gender.)
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Just make it the way you want (ask the DnD if you can use a home brew class)
I mean, WotC is clearly working on a new system. It's right there in the new UA.
Except, it is better to have official content, because we're not game designers, and it is both their job to design games and mechanics, and also they're better at it than the average DM.
It's better to have official content, because then it's official.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
I'm all ears. Do you have a public draft anywhere?
Not yet.
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The fact they can "cast" without verbal or somatic conponents.
So, distilling the last couple of pages....
The Pro-Psionics argument is that they don't actually want a spellcaster at all. While the effects are inherently magical in nature, and may interact with Anti-magic effects where appropriate, Psionic abilities are not spells, and do not interact with the spell system in any way, shape, or form beyond the potential with Anti-magic effects. Instead, they're looking for a new class that has all of its features revolving around using the force of the mind, instead of manipulating the Weave and all of that.
They don't want to cast the Telekinesis, with all of its requirements, limitations, and capabilities. They want to use a class feature that can do some other thing, that may overlap with the effects possible with the spell Telekinesis at some level in the class vs some spell slot level of Telekinesis. They want another ability that allows them to use the Shove action from ~30 feet away using the Attack action. They want a feature that doesn't do damage, but as an action they can force creatures within 10 feet to make a STR or CON save or be knocked Prone (something that a lot of people would say is overlap with the spell Thunderwave).
I can actually see that working pretty well. And it's not inventing some new system, either, which seems to be the fear of all the anti-Psionics arguments. It's a set of text based abilities, like the Rogue's Sneak Attack or the Fighter's Action Surge. We're not reinventing the wheel of making spells without calling them spells, and using points instead of slots.
I can see this working, but I would also think that a class with a bunch of text based powers shouldn't have too many of them. I would think an upper limit of I dunno, maybe twelve powers? Otherwise it gets way too cumbersome. Would that few powers be satisfying enough as a class for people who want psions?
Canto alla vita
alla sua bellezza
ad ogni sua ferita
ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty
To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me
The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!