Myself fro reading what I can of WotC potential change to races and based off of Eberron and Exandria can add a depth of role-play to the game. I have no problems with any of the PC races that under the area of alignment going from say Neutral, Chaotic and Lawful Evil to any alignment why should Drow, Orcs, Goblins, Kobolds and all the others be any different then the humans. Specially now in 5th edition as alignment doesn't have the repercussions as it did in older editions, while there are so many things that can make the races unique to each other, even things that are negative to the race such as sunlight sensitivity and so on.
Human history is fraught with evil acts. There is not one culture or people on this planet that hasn’t done something evil at one point. Does that mean they are all evil? No it doesn’t. Does it mean that culture overall is evil? Maybe, but I doubt it. All people are capable of committing evil.
In the end, it’s a game and you can change it however you like. WotC can change it however they like. And I’m fine with that.
But that is what I was talking about a couple posts ago. Any given culture can do evil things. It can even go through a period where it actually can be described as evil. However not everyone living in that region will follow said culture equally. Nor is any culture static, 'defined' and unchanging.
The problem is not having such cultures in game, but rather treating races as static and unchanging, as rigidly defined, as uniform and 'typed.'
True but how often does a game developer have to update said culture to show its varying growth and changes. It can’t really. How many hard copies of the monster manual are we expected to buy as they show the development of a race. That’s where the lore comes in. It can vary in the lore or stay relatively unchanged over time but the stat block is just the current “stage” they are in. And maybe they have been in that stage for millennia or it could be recent change.
like warforged. We know what they were designed for in lore and they may follow a certain stat block that is static but PC’s and NPC warforged can be different. I’m not current on Ebberon so I may be way off with this example. And I’m not a big lore guy, I don’t have all the books.
I just want people to have fun and as long as it doesn’t change to “Hey! The village is being invaded by Orcs with lollipops and hugs! Let’s get them!!! The hugs and lollipops, I mean. CHARGE!!!!” I’m fine. :)
"Historically, the <insert culture here> have tended towards <traits associated with the culture in the past>. In the beginning, when the races were first created, they were <insert creation traits here> but as the years went by they became more <traits developed in response to their immediate environments>. Close proximity to <insert neighbouring cultures> led to <initial contact reaction, i.e. protectionism, open trade, whatever the Devs think appropriate for the two races> and over time, that led to <either war, alliance, peaceful coexistence, general avoidance, some of each.. >. As a result, today, they tend to be <insert modern traits>. What will become of these people as time and events continue to shape them? Noteworthy accomplishments, great change, or just carrying on in the traditions of their forefathers? Only time can tell....
Of course, as free thinking beings, individuals vary and may or may not fully embrace their traditional culture, perhaps not even at all, or even rebelling against it. Such is the nature of free will."
And historically, only Halflings invade with hugs and lollipops.
Just for that hugs and lollipops suggestions, here is an old Halfling folk song, often sung as an interrogation technique:
Sunshine and lollipops And all the things happy Warm summer evenings Spent with the pappy Getting new toys, all shiny and new All of these things are waiting for you
Sunshine and lollipops And big tasty dinners Time with the family You feel such a winner A bigger home with all the nice things All this and more can your future bring
Hey, Sunshine Lollipop! Your situation right now Sure ain't the tops! Give in right now You should just give up! We can do this all day Writing new verses up!
Sunshine and lollipops And saltwater taffy The funniest jokes That leave you all laughy The catchiest songs to e'er reach your ears We'll make you so happy that you'll be in tears!
Hey, Sunshine Lollipop! A few verses more and Your brain will just stop. Give in right now Just give up the fight. We are well rested And can sing all night!
I would like to believe free thinking individuals can rebel against their culture if they disagree with it, and depending on that culture be respectful of it or not.
at the same time I think of the story of the scorpion and the frog. The scorpion stings because it is it’s nature even though it ends in its demise.
or the Atevi race from the Foreigner, invader, inheritor series. A lot of their behavior/ culture was “hardwired” in their brains where they had no word for friend but many words for betrayal. And they had an instinctual drive to follow a “leader” or Aiji. More so than loyalty to their families etc...
not every race in a fantasy setting thinks like humans so we can’t expect them to behave in a manner as free thinking individuals. There may be more going on there and they just very well may be inherently evil or good or chaotic or lawful or neutral.
and chaotic evil orcs can have a society but I would think it tends to be harshly ruled over by someone or something to keep them in line. I think the country of Iuz in the Greyhawk setting back in 1E AD&D was such a place though I may be wrong.
Would you guys drop them from Ravenloft/the Shadowfell entirely, or just make them less offensive? I’m thinking of doing a Ravenloft setting sometime and I’m curious about what you think.
Would you guys drop them from Ravenloft/the Shadowfell entirely, or just make them less offensive? I’m thinking of doing a Ravenloft setting sometime and I’m curious about what you think.
It's not up to me. It's up to sensitivity readers and Romani D&D players. If they find it offensive merely by their presence, get rid of them. If they just want it changed, change it how they want.
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Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Would you guys drop them from Ravenloft/the Shadowfell entirely, or just make them less offensive? I’m thinking of doing a Ravenloft setting sometime and I’m curious about what you think.
It's not up to me. It's up to sensitivity readers and Romani D&D players. If they find it offensive merely by their presence, get rid of them. If they just want it changed, change it how they want.
As I understand it, the Vistani are portrayed as drunks and evil and the way that madam Eva hid her disability didn't portray them in really any good light. The Vistani are remaining but are not being portrayed as drunks or evil, unless it is a Vistani that has sided with Strahd and is evil. I do hope that this does help ease the feelings of any Romani players, myself I always liked the Vistani and really enjoyed playing one back in 2nd edition with the domains of dread sourcebook.
It's not up to me. It's up to sensitivity readers and Romani D&D players. If they find it offensive merely by their presence, get rid of them. If they just want it changed, change it how they want.
Well, it's possible to make guesses about what is offensive, since it's pretty blatant. The issues are:
Drunk
Evil (they all work for Strahd. Why? Whatever)
Walking stereotype
It's pretty easy to just delete the two from CoS; it just means adjusting the Plea for Help and Mysterious Visitors introduction, area N9, and some wandering monster encounters. Or Stanimir might just be a solo guy, rather than a general representative of what all Vistani are like. The third is a little trickier because the fortune telling is kinda key, though the Vistani Curses and Evil Eye are pretty irrelevant.
I don't recall gypsies featuring in Dracula. I could be wrong though. But I think they did feature in The Wolfman and Thinner and other horror movies like that which imply they have magical power to bring harm to others. And, of course, the Hunchback of Notre Dame. I think the portrayal of circus and carnival workers in America isn't much better, but the stereotypes aren't mapped onto a single racial group the way they are in Europe and instead the profession as a whole.
They transported his coffin about. I don't think they were otherwise very significant.
Stoker did go out of his way to describe them, though. He also described the Slovaks who were making the coffins. Again, that they were not plot points is the evidence that it is institutionalized racism, simply taken for granted as normal descriptions of said ethnic groups.
My point is that things that aren't plot points can be fairly easily dropped.
They transported his coffin about. I don't think they were otherwise very significant.
Stoker did go out of his way to describe them, though. He also described the Slovaks who were making the coffins. Again, that they were not plot points is the evidence that it is institutionalized racism, simply taken for granted as normal descriptions of said ethnic groups.
My point is that things that aren't plot points can be fairly easily dropped.
My counter-point is that a book that consists only of plot points is unlikely to be anywhere near as "Dracula"
Who's looking for a book? It's just "If you're doing a RPG/movie/whatever adaptation of Dracula, it's not really going to harm it much to replace the Gypsies".
They transported his coffin about. I don't think they were otherwise very significant.
Stoker did go out of his way to describe them, though. He also described the Slovaks who were making the coffins. Again, that they were not plot points is the evidence that it is institutionalized racism, simply taken for granted as normal descriptions of said ethnic groups.
My point is that things that aren't plot points can be fairly easily dropped.
My counter-point is that a book that consists only of plot points is unlikely to be anywhere near as "Dracula"
I think if I ever run CoS I’ll ask my players what they think. Otherwise, I think I just won’t use any of the Vistani encounters except Madam Eva’s reading.
Would you guys drop them from Ravenloft/the Shadowfell entirely, or just make them less offensive? I’m thinking of doing a Ravenloft setting sometime and I’m curious about what you think.
It's not up to me. It's up to sensitivity readers and Romani D&D players. If they find it offensive merely by their presence, get rid of them. If they just want it changed, change it how they want.
You know you that the bolded parts do not mean what I am certain you meant, right? I would hope.... Holy Pronoun Trouble, Batman!
Yeah, sorry for that. I obviously do not mean get rid of the Romani people, that's genocide. I mean get rid of the racist/offensive depictions of the Vistani.
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Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
It's a gladiator battle where you cannot kill the enemies, only KO them.
Gladiator battles aren’t my thing, but I may check it out anyway just out of curiosity.
I talked to my potential players. They all agreed that getting rid of all the Vistani encounters except Madam Eva’s reading was probably the best thing to do.
Also, I'm not recommending we get rid of Vistani in 5e. They're here, and they're being changed to be less offensive. In the future products and editions of D&D, if the Romani people still find the Vistani offensive, I think the Vistani have to go if there's no compromise.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Myself fro reading what I can of WotC potential change to races and based off of Eberron and Exandria can add a depth of role-play to the game. I have no problems with any of the PC races that under the area of alignment going from say Neutral, Chaotic and Lawful Evil to any alignment why should Drow, Orcs, Goblins, Kobolds and all the others be any different then the humans. Specially now in 5th edition as alignment doesn't have the repercussions as it did in older editions, while there are so many things that can make the races unique to each other, even things that are negative to the race such as sunlight sensitivity and so on.
I would like to believe free thinking individuals can rebel against their culture if they disagree with it, and depending on that culture be respectful of it or not.
at the same time I think of the story of the scorpion and the frog. The scorpion stings because it is it’s nature even though it ends in its demise.
or the Atevi race from the Foreigner, invader, inheritor series. A lot of their behavior/ culture was “hardwired” in their brains where they had no word for friend but many words for betrayal. And they had an instinctual drive to follow a “leader” or Aiji. More so than loyalty to their families etc...
not every race in a fantasy setting thinks like humans so we can’t expect them to behave in a manner as free thinking individuals. There may be more going on there and they just very well may be inherently evil or good or chaotic or lawful or neutral.
and chaotic evil orcs can have a society but I would think it tends to be harshly ruled over by someone or something to keep them in line. I think the country of Iuz in the Greyhawk setting back in 1E AD&D was such a place though I may be wrong.
EZD6 by DM Scotty
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/397599/EZD6-Core-Rulebook?
Question about the Vistani
Would you guys drop them from Ravenloft/the Shadowfell entirely, or just make them less offensive? I’m thinking of doing a Ravenloft setting sometime and I’m curious about what you think.
It's not up to me. It's up to sensitivity readers and Romani D&D players. If they find it offensive merely by their presence, get rid of them. If they just want it changed, change it how they want.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
As I understand it, the Vistani are portrayed as drunks and evil and the way that madam Eva hid her disability didn't portray them in really any good light. The Vistani are remaining but are not being portrayed as drunks or evil, unless it is a Vistani that has sided with Strahd and is evil. I do hope that this does help ease the feelings of any Romani players, myself I always liked the Vistani and really enjoyed playing one back in 2nd edition with the domains of dread sourcebook.
Well, it's possible to make guesses about what is offensive, since it's pretty blatant. The issues are:
It's pretty easy to just delete the two from CoS; it just means adjusting the Plea for Help and Mysterious Visitors introduction, area N9, and some wandering monster encounters. Or Stanimir might just be a solo guy, rather than a general representative of what all Vistani are like. The third is a little trickier because the fortune telling is kinda key, though the Vistani Curses and Evil Eye are pretty irrelevant.
I don't recall gypsies featuring in Dracula. I could be wrong though. But I think they did feature in The Wolfman and Thinner and other horror movies like that which imply they have magical power to bring harm to others. And, of course, the Hunchback of Notre Dame. I think the portrayal of circus and carnival workers in America isn't much better, but the stereotypes aren't mapped onto a single racial group the way they are in Europe and instead the profession as a whole.
They transported his coffin about. I don't think they were otherwise very significant.
My point is that things that aren't plot points can be fairly easily dropped.
Who's looking for a book? It's just "If you're doing a RPG/movie/whatever adaptation of Dracula, it's not really going to harm it much to replace the Gypsies".
I think if I ever run CoS I’ll ask my players what they think. Otherwise, I think I just won’t use any of the Vistani encounters except Madam Eva’s reading.
When you say CoS, you wouldn't happen to be referencing the allmighty Cult of Sedge would you?
Cult of Sedge
Rangers are the best, and have always been the best
I love Homebrew
I hate paladins
Warrior Bovine
Nope 😂😂😂.
Tarrasques are cool.
if you want to join, look in adohand's kitchen, we practice non violence and occasionally participate in PVP
Cult of Sedge
Rangers are the best, and have always been the best
I love Homebrew
I hate paladins
Warrior Bovine
Yeah, sorry for that. I obviously do not mean get rid of the Romani people, that's genocide. I mean get rid of the racist/offensive depictions of the Vistani.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
Thanks 😊
It's a gladiator battle where you cannot kill the enemies, only KO them.
Cult of Sedge
Rangers are the best, and have always been the best
I love Homebrew
I hate paladins
Warrior Bovine
Gladiator battles aren’t my thing, but I may check it out anyway just out of curiosity.
I talked to my potential players. They all agreed that getting rid of all the Vistani encounters except Madam Eva’s reading was probably the best thing to do.
We don't do it in that group, we just worship Sedge, and sometimes participate in battlegrounds run by others.
Cult of Sedge
Rangers are the best, and have always been the best
I love Homebrew
I hate paladins
Warrior Bovine
Also, I'm not recommending we get rid of Vistani in 5e. They're here, and they're being changed to be less offensive. In the future products and editions of D&D, if the Romani people still find the Vistani offensive, I think the Vistani have to go if there's no compromise.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms