Also, I'm not recommending we get rid of Vistani in 5e. They're here, and they're being changed to be less offensive. In the future products and editions of D&D, if the Romani people still find the Vistani offensive, I think the Vistani have to go if there's no compromise.
I agree with this as well. There can even be individuals of any given race or culture with negative traits. It is when the race or culture as a whole gets painted uniformly that there are issues.
Yeah. I agree with everything said there.
(Also, the people arguing against this either seem to be talking about cults, or gone.)
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Regarding concerns about racial bonuses/penalties, just get rid of them altogether if they are problematic. Although I can’t help but wonder if you get rid of adjustments, or let the player choose whatever they want, what’s the point of playing non-human PCs? Or, even more so, since non-humans have spells, flight, resistances, and natural weapons, why play a human at all?
My other question, and I mean this seriously, what do you do with published adventures that already exist? Orcs as opponents feature heavily in LMOP and the other starter modules with no reason why other than they’re orcs. Kobolds are featured in Horde of the Dragon Queen but that can be explained as them serving dragons rather than as a species they just evil that way.
Will we have to change Menzoberranzan or can we keep it and explain it as a dark culture but add “good” drow towns elsewhere (actually that could be an interesting setting if they are both in the Underdark).
Regarding concerns about racial bonuses/penalties, just get rid of them altogether if they are problematic. Although I can’t help but wonder if you get rid of adjustments, or let the player choose whatever they want, what’s the point of playing non-human PCs? Or, even more so, since non-humans have spells, flight, resistances, and natural weapons, why play a human at all?
My other question, and I mean this seriously, what do you do with published adventures that already exist? Orcs as opponents feature heavily in LMOP and the other starter modules with no reason why other than they’re orcs. Kobolds are featured in Horde of the Dragon Queen but that can be explained as them serving dragons rather than as a species they just evil that way.
Will we have to change Menzoberranzan or can we keep it and explain it as a dark culture but add “good” drow towns elsewhere (actually that could be an interesting setting if they are both in the Underdark).
I like the idea of kobolds as a culture being allied with chromatic dragons.
Menzoberranzan is not dark because they’re drow. It’s dark because they’re drow who choose to worship Lloth the Demon Queen of Spiders.
Regarding concerns about racial bonuses/penalties, just get rid of them altogether if they are problematic. Although I can’t help but wonder if you get rid of adjustments, or let the player choose whatever they want, what’s the point of playing non-human PCs? Or, even more so, since non-humans have spells, flight, resistances, and natural weapons, why play a human at all?
My other question, and I mean this seriously, what do you do with published adventures that already exist? Orcs as opponents feature heavily in LMOP and the other starter modules with no reason why other than they’re orcs. Kobolds are featured in Horde of the Dragon Queen but that can be explained as them serving dragons rather than as a species they just evil that way.
Will we have to change Menzoberranzan or can we keep it and explain it as a dark culture but add “good” drow towns elsewhere (actually that could be an interesting setting if they are both in the Underdark).
I like the idea of kobolds as a culture being allied with chromatic dragons.
Menzoberranzan is not dark because they’re drow. It’s dark because they’re drow who choose to worship Lloth the Demon Queen of Spiders.
Perhaps, but to my knowledge the only example in Faerun of a Drow not worshipping Llolth is Drizzet. Isn't that correct?
Other settings are different, primarily because the gods are distant at best and absent at worst, for example Eberron. But we seem to be (mostly) talking about Faerun here.
And there are drow communities elsewhere that still worship the other (occasionally less evil) drow gods, Eilistraee in particular standing out as the goddess of beauty, dance, song, freedom, moonlight, swordwork, and hunting.
Regarding concerns about racial bonuses/penalties, just get rid of them altogether if they are problematic. Although I can’t help but wonder if you get rid of adjustments, or let the player choose whatever they want, what’s the point of playing non-human PCs? Or, even more so, since non-humans have spells, flight, resistances, and natural weapons, why play a human at all?
There's ways to balance races without ability score adjustments, it just means you need to give a balanced set of benefits. It's not like Variant Human has better ability scores than nonhuman races anyway.
Regarding concerns about racial bonuses/penalties, just get rid of them altogether if they are problematic. Although I can’t help but wonder if you get rid of adjustments, or let the player choose whatever they want, what’s the point of playing non-human PCs? Or, even more so, since non-humans have spells, flight, resistances, and natural weapons, why play a human at all?
My other question, and I mean this seriously, what do you do with published adventures that already exist? Orcs as opponents feature heavily in LMOP and the other starter modules with no reason why other than they’re orcs. Kobolds are featured in Horde of the Dragon Queen but that can be explained as them serving dragons rather than as a species they just evil that way.
Will we have to change Menzoberranzan or can we keep it and explain it as a dark culture but add “good” drow towns elsewhere (actually that could be an interesting setting if they are both in the Underdark).
The races are only losing the importance of the Racial Ability Scores. They still have the other mechanical benefits. Also, people like playing different races for reasons other than mechanical benefits, though it is nice to have them.
Also, you don't have to change the villains in existing adventures, and you can still have villains, as long as in the core rules and adventures it is not the whole races that are evil.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
I don’t know. If you aren’t giving reasons for PCs fighting them then they just end up being violent vigilantes and murder-hobos. Just saying “well we aren’t calling them evil, but all the orcs still want to kill you” defeats the purpose.
I don’t know. If you aren’t giving reasons for PCs fighting them then they just end up being violent vigilantes and murder-hobos.
That's true. That's why adventures should include villainous activity to foil; any module that doesn't give a better reason to go down into the dungeon than "there are monsters and treasure there" is murder-hoboing anyway.
I don’t know. If you aren’t giving reasons for PCs fighting them then they just end up being violent vigilantes and murder-hobos. Just saying “well we aren’t calling them evil, but all the orcs still want to kill you” defeats the purpose.
The whole races don't have to be evil.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
And there are drow communities elsewhere that still worship the other (occasionally less evil) drow gods, Eilistraee in particular standing out as the goddess of beauty, dance, song, freedom, moonlight, swordwork, and hunting.
Exactly. Eilistraee is the only good drow goddess I can think of, but Vhaeraun is borderline. But there are defo a significant minority of drow (and a whole half-drow nation, Dambrath) on Faerun who don’t worship Lloth. Not all drow are like the ones in Menzoberranzan.
I don’t know. If you aren’t giving reasons for PCs fighting them then they just end up being violent vigilantes and murder-hobos. Just saying “well we aren’t calling them evil, but all the orcs still want to kill you” defeats the purpose.
I don’t know. If you aren’t giving reasons for PCs fighting them then they just end up being violent vigilantes and murder-hobos. Just saying “well we aren’t calling them evil, but all the orcs still want to kill you” defeats the purpose.
The whole races don't have to be evil.
They never were. Even before Wizards of the Coast changed things they had cultures that were predominantly one race. Look at the Drow. They are a very political, matriarchal society that runs on political machinations, worship of Lolthe the Spider Queen and surviving the horrors of the Underdark. Not only surviving, but thriving. Yet one of the single most popular good heroes of the Forgotten Realms also happens to be a drow who abandoned his people. Drizzt Do'Urdan.
Or the orcs. Taken directly from the Forgotten Realms wiki.
Traditional orcish culture was extremely warlike and when not at war the race was usually planning for it. Most orcs approached life with the belief that to survive, one had to subjugate potential enemies and control as many resources as possible, which put them naturally at odds with other races as well as each other. This belief was spurred in part by Gruumsh and his pantheon, which taught that all races were inferior to the orcs. Eyes of Gruumsh were orcs specially tied to the one-eyed god and offered sacrifices, read omens and advised tribes through Gruumsh's will.
Male orcs dominated most orcish societies and females were usually, at best, prized possessions and little better than livestock at worst. Male orcs prided themselves on their number of wives and sons, as well as their scars from battle and rituals. Orcs also prized the possession of slaves, though relatively few owned them.
Most orcs didn't build cities of their own, instead relying on those left behind by others and improving their fortifications or operating out of small camps and dens, often in natural caves. Orcs managed ironwork on their own, as well as stonework, though their tools were often inferior to those of more disciplined races.
Most orcs were part of a confederation of tribes, loosely held together by a despotic chieftain. Bands within these alliances might have wandered far from their homelands, but continued to greet those orcs who belonging to the same tribal network as kin. Orc bloodragers were champions of their tribe, who used primal strength and ferocity to overcome their enemies. Most were bodyguards or lower-ranking chiefs within the tribal structure.
But even the orcs had exceptions in the lore as well. King Obould Many-Arrows gathered a horde of mountain orcs and organized them into a single kingdom that was civilized.
Not once was it ever said that ALL members of a race were good or evil. They are typically something in the morality compass based on their culture, largely based on racial characteristics, their environment, threats to themselves or families, their religious worship and cultural views on anything not from their culture.
Not once was it ever said that ALL members of a race were good or evil. They are typically something in the morality compass based on their culture, largely based on racial characteristics, their environment, threats to themselves or families, their religious worship and cultural views on anything not from their culture.
And yet what you say has never been said seems to be exactly what many of the people opposed to this policy changed are afraid of losing. And those opposed but not saying that seem to think that this change will mean all races suddenly become good aligned or something...
What people are opposed to is that some idiot on Twitter said that orcs and drow are representations of black people today and wanted them changed, then later came out and said that he doesn't even play D&D yet Wizards of the Coast bent over backwards to appease a person who isn't even a customer.
The fact that someone can look at a matriarchal society filled with political intrigue and backstabbing being a way of life while worshiping an evil deity as the predominant religion and think "that looks like black people" is racist. We are simply calling it out and that is being misrepresented by twitter. Whenever I run a game, I will ignore whatever changes the sensitivity readers Wizards of the Coast hired will make, and I will keep the racial traits as they stand if it fits the world my campaigns will be in and if the players want to play these races.
However please, please go deeper than .... 'Because Gods' or
This is actually a pretty big deal in the game.
When gods in the game tell you things it's possibly a good idea to listen to them. How many casters would give up their power and their spells because some other culture said it's a bad thing?
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
It is only evil through the eyes of their opposition. Drow don't think they're evil, that's just how their society is.
That doesn't really make things better, because if it's subjective, they aren't actually evil at all and PCs slaughtering them are in the wrong.
In any case, the basic issue is that judging people as 'evil' or 'good' based on involuntary traits is problematic, and the existence of exceptions actually makes doing so worse, not better. PCs attacking sentient creatures without solid evidence that those creatures are doing something bad is, well, evil murder-hobo behavior. If all orcs or drow behave badly, that may be problematic from a world design standpoint, but it does mean PCs attacking them on sight is justified. If only some of them behave badly, they should really be doing more investigation (of course, if they're heavily armed and in a place they don't belong, that's probable cause, but much of the time that's more accurate as a description of the PCs than of the monsters).
It is only evil through the eyes of their opposition. Drow don't think they're evil, that's just how their society is.
That doesn't really make things better, because if it's subjective, they aren't actually evil at all and PCs slaughtering them are in the wrong.
In any case, the basic issue is that judging people as 'evil' or 'good' based on involuntary traits is problematic, and the existence of exceptions actually makes doing so worse, not better. PCs attacking sentient creatures without solid evidence that those creatures are doing something bad is, well, evil murder-hobo behavior. If all orcs or drow behave badly, that may be problematic from a world design standpoint, but it does mean PCs attacking them on sight is justified. If only some of them behave badly, they should really be doing more investigation (of course, if they're heavily armed and in a place they don't belong, that's probable cause, but much of the time that's more accurate as a description of the PCs than of the monsters).
Hence the word "predominantly" in the racial description. Before any changes occurred one of the most popular heroes is a drow who is good who abandoned his people's ways. An orc king unified a large group of mountain orcs and established a civilized kingdom.
However, battles for resources, territory, religious beliefs or even sport are as old in human history as it is in other races lore in D&D. If I'm a guard and we are having a very rough winter and we are getting raided by gnolls who want to kill and kidnap as many people as possible as a food source, a group of kobolds who have grown desperate for food and are raiding our stores, or bandits or goblins I can guarantee that the guards are not going to think twice about killing as many as they can to protect their towns supplies.
Let's say the gnolls attack and kidnap a bunch of people so they can eat them, we are an adventuring party hired to help hunt them down and kill the gnolls and rescue any survivors then there is nothing wrong with doing so. And the gnolls are also not going to hesitate to try and kill anyone who comes in to take away their captives because that is their food. Neither can coexist. One group will wipe out the other.
There are also gods who are truly malevolent. Many orcs worship a god who rewards and blesses them to raid, pillage and **** their way across the world, causing as much destruction as possible.
The aspect of a soul and an afterlife are very much proven and well-known things in D&D settings. The gods are quite active in the world through their followers, and can be enemies just as much two warring factions are.
Don't overthink it in a fictional setting. It's perfectly fine to run a game where players can feel epic fighting a bunch of monsters and saving the day without worrying about whether the monsters deserved to die or not in what is basically a game of make-believe and dice.
https://www.dndbeyond.com/races/450816-invisible-stalker
Is this too OP?
Cult of Sedge
Rangers are the best, and have always been the best
I love Homebrew
I hate paladins
Warrior Bovine
Cool 😊
Yeah. I agree with everything said there.
(Also, the people arguing against this either seem to be talking about cults, or gone.)
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
Regarding concerns about racial bonuses/penalties, just get rid of them altogether if they are problematic. Although I can’t help but wonder if you get rid of adjustments, or let the player choose whatever they want, what’s the point of playing non-human PCs? Or, even more so, since non-humans have spells, flight, resistances, and natural weapons, why play a human at all?
My other question, and I mean this seriously, what do you do with published adventures that already exist? Orcs as opponents feature heavily in LMOP and the other starter modules with no reason why other than they’re orcs. Kobolds are featured in Horde of the Dragon Queen but that can be explained as them serving dragons rather than as a species they just evil that way.
Will we have to change Menzoberranzan or can we keep it and explain it as a dark culture but add “good” drow towns elsewhere (actually that could be an interesting setting if they are both in the Underdark).
I like the idea of kobolds as a culture being allied with chromatic dragons.
Menzoberranzan is not dark because they’re drow. It’s dark because they’re drow who choose to worship Lloth the Demon Queen of Spiders.
Perhaps, but to my knowledge the only example in Faerun of a Drow not worshipping Llolth is Drizzet. Isn't that correct?
Other settings are different, primarily because the gods are distant at best and absent at worst, for example Eberron. But we seem to be (mostly) talking about Faerun here.
And there are drow communities elsewhere that still worship the other (occasionally less evil) drow gods, Eilistraee in particular standing out as the goddess of beauty, dance, song, freedom, moonlight, swordwork, and hunting.
I am one with the Force. The Force is with me.
There's ways to balance races without ability score adjustments, it just means you need to give a balanced set of benefits. It's not like Variant Human has better ability scores than nonhuman races anyway.
The races are only losing the importance of the Racial Ability Scores. They still have the other mechanical benefits. Also, people like playing different races for reasons other than mechanical benefits, though it is nice to have them.
Also, you don't have to change the villains in existing adventures, and you can still have villains, as long as in the core rules and adventures it is not the whole races that are evil.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
I don’t know. If you aren’t giving reasons for PCs fighting them then they just end up being violent vigilantes and murder-hobos. Just saying “well we aren’t calling them evil, but all the orcs still want to kill you” defeats the purpose.
That's true. That's why adventures should include villainous activity to foil; any module that doesn't give a better reason to go down into the dungeon than "there are monsters and treasure there" is murder-hoboing anyway.
The whole races don't have to be evil.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
Exactly. Eilistraee is the only good drow goddess I can think of, but Vhaeraun is borderline. But there are defo a significant minority of drow (and a whole half-drow nation, Dambrath) on Faerun who don’t worship Lloth. Not all drow are like the ones in Menzoberranzan.
Agree with you and @Kotath
They never were. Even before Wizards of the Coast changed things they had cultures that were predominantly one race. Look at the Drow. They are a very political, matriarchal society that runs on political machinations, worship of Lolthe the Spider Queen and surviving the horrors of the Underdark. Not only surviving, but thriving. Yet one of the single most popular good heroes of the Forgotten Realms also happens to be a drow who abandoned his people. Drizzt Do'Urdan.
Or the orcs. Taken directly from the Forgotten Realms wiki.
But even the orcs had exceptions in the lore as well. King Obould Many-Arrows gathered a horde of mountain orcs and organized them into a single kingdom that was civilized.
Not once was it ever said that ALL members of a race were good or evil. They are typically something in the morality compass based on their culture, largely based on racial characteristics, their environment, threats to themselves or families, their religious worship and cultural views on anything not from their culture.
What people are opposed to is that some idiot on Twitter said that orcs and drow are representations of black people today and wanted them changed, then later came out and said that he doesn't even play D&D yet Wizards of the Coast bent over backwards to appease a person who isn't even a customer.
The fact that someone can look at a matriarchal society filled with political intrigue and backstabbing being a way of life while worshiping an evil deity as the predominant religion and think "that looks like black people" is racist. We are simply calling it out and that is being misrepresented by twitter. Whenever I run a game, I will ignore whatever changes the sensitivity readers Wizards of the Coast hired will make, and I will keep the racial traits as they stand if it fits the world my campaigns will be in and if the players want to play these races.
It is only evil through the eyes of their opposition. Drow don't think they're evil, that's just how their society is.
Americans don't think they're evil but a lot of the world thinks we are.
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
-Ilyara Thundertale
This is actually a pretty big deal in the game.
When gods in the game tell you things it's possibly a good idea to listen to them. How many casters would give up their power and their spells because some other culture said it's a bad thing?
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
-Ilyara Thundertale
That doesn't really make things better, because if it's subjective, they aren't actually evil at all and PCs slaughtering them are in the wrong.
In any case, the basic issue is that judging people as 'evil' or 'good' based on involuntary traits is problematic, and the existence of exceptions actually makes doing so worse, not better. PCs attacking sentient creatures without solid evidence that those creatures are doing something bad is, well, evil murder-hobo behavior. If all orcs or drow behave badly, that may be problematic from a world design standpoint, but it does mean PCs attacking them on sight is justified. If only some of them behave badly, they should really be doing more investigation (of course, if they're heavily armed and in a place they don't belong, that's probable cause, but much of the time that's more accurate as a description of the PCs than of the monsters).
Hence the word "predominantly" in the racial description. Before any changes occurred one of the most popular heroes is a drow who is good who abandoned his people's ways. An orc king unified a large group of mountain orcs and established a civilized kingdom.
However, battles for resources, territory, religious beliefs or even sport are as old in human history as it is in other races lore in D&D. If I'm a guard and we are having a very rough winter and we are getting raided by gnolls who want to kill and kidnap as many people as possible as a food source, a group of kobolds who have grown desperate for food and are raiding our stores, or bandits or goblins I can guarantee that the guards are not going to think twice about killing as many as they can to protect their towns supplies.
Let's say the gnolls attack and kidnap a bunch of people so they can eat them, we are an adventuring party hired to help hunt them down and kill the gnolls and rescue any survivors then there is nothing wrong with doing so. And the gnolls are also not going to hesitate to try and kill anyone who comes in to take away their captives because that is their food. Neither can coexist. One group will wipe out the other.
There are also gods who are truly malevolent. Many orcs worship a god who rewards and blesses them to raid, pillage and **** their way across the world, causing as much destruction as possible.
The aspect of a soul and an afterlife are very much proven and well-known things in D&D settings. The gods are quite active in the world through their followers, and can be enemies just as much two warring factions are.
Don't overthink it in a fictional setting. It's perfectly fine to run a game where players can feel epic fighting a bunch of monsters and saving the day without worrying about whether the monsters deserved to die or not in what is basically a game of make-believe and dice.