There's a difference between acknowledging medical facts and using those medical facts to attempt to force conformance with outdated, unhelpful, and in many cases actively harmful gender stereotypes. Lyran is correct - lifestyle is a far greater determinant of capability than biological gender, even after many thousands of years of humanity specifically attempting to breed any capacity for physical exertion and ability out of the female gender.
Have you ever noticed, as an aside, that the overwhelming majority of "Just Biology" arguments tend to come from male people? Many of whom, in discussions similar to this one that I've had elsewhere, go out of their way to stress that it's perfectly acceptable to be a woman and they have no problem with women. They simply want to acknowledge reality, and biology is reality.
The fact that people feel the need to make that defense - to point out that THEY don't have any issue with women - points to a pervasive skein of unconscious sexism in modern culture that sees the female human being as fundamentally ineffectual. Too weak and frail to look after herself without a strong, strapping male to protect and assist her.
Is it any wonder that ladies push back against that sort of thing?
I don't care one whit if an argument in a debate is made by a man or a woman. Not one whit. Nor do I believe that someone is inherently disqualified from giving an opinion on a subject because of their gender.
So long as science, the facts and unbiased data is used to make the argument then it doesn't matter one bit who is the one making the argument.
It could be a man or a woman. Let the idea of the argument be held on its own merits. And that is true gender equality.
It's one of the reasons I like debating on the internet. Anyone can say anything they want and I can believe them or disbelieve them based on the logic of their arguments and any cited sources, or lack thereof. Someone may say they are a woman to try and give themselves more legitimacy in an argument, but that does not mean they are a woman, nor does it mean that their arguments have any more legitimacy than if they were a man. The same is true in reverse. Men don't have any more legitimacy for their arguments just because they're men either.
Either an argument in a debate makes sense or it doesn't.
Now, to keep it on topic for the thread, I honestly think it's great that D&D lets players be whatever they want to be because everyone has an opportunity to play, everyone has the opportunity to make whatever character they want to make, and the only real enemy of what can and can't happen is the dice. Some people may prefer playing as a girls even though they're boys to try and experience things in-game they wouldn't experience in real life, but I honestly find that an unreliable metric because they are still limited by the imagination and reactions of the other players, how they play their characters and the DM and their own views. Others may prefer to play as their own gender because they they are doing some form of self-insert or don't know how to play the other gender well, or don't like someone of their own gender flirting with them in-character because they find it creepy. Others may be simply in it for the sake of playing a game of make-believe with their friends and a bag of dice.
The opportunity is there and there are no advantages or disadvantages to playing either male or female in D&D, aside from what you as a player impose on yourself or what your particular group handles it. (I'm using "you" colloquially to be anyone, not you specificly).
I don't care what people do in their own lives, men or women, or what career fields or college courses they take, what characters they make or whatever. I don't tell them what to do and I expect for them to not tell me what to do.
Fair assessment, Legion. It is worth noting, though, that 'gender never matters/impacts the game' can have its own issues. it's a problem with a lot of modern video game designs; the developers can be seen as forward-thinking inclusionists by simply not bothering with any code that differentiates between male and female in all-too-common 'Romance' systems or other similar situations. Rather than gender identities, preferences, or ideologies being celebrated as equal, those things don't exist. Everyone is a genderless mannequin who's equally compatible with every other genderless mannequin, which is its own, different kind of unpleasant.
Nevertheless, the rules of D&D 5e don't tend to enforce that view. Rather, it's left to each individual table to decide what sort of importance those roles and preferences have in their game, which is fine. I'm not necessarily bagging on 5e for being disinclusive, I'm more interested in seeing where the players fall out and how much of that potential inclusivity the players are actually making use of. Might be an interesting survey - 'have you ever played a character of a different gender than yourself? Have you ever played a character with a different sexual orientation than yourself?' So on and so forth.
Admittedly, the response percentages for that survey would be dismally low, but the subject of gender in general fascinates me. I'd simply like to see the data, regardless of what that data suggested.
Yurei, these are great observations, thank you for sharing! :) And, on that second point about players deciding to be inclusive vs. what the game mechanics offer: I would totally love such a survey to be done!
Also, it may be a different thread topic entirely, *or* it may be totally relevant to this conversation, but I would really be interested in people's takes (or...maybe not, if they're awful? lol) on gender inclusiveness among PLAYERS. I just joined a new D&D group created by some "refugee" gamers who were driven out of their old gaming group, due to nothing else than their DM and "the boy's club" penalizing female players for the most minute things, just because they could (I saw the discord chat myself, and know that the DM and his cronies were indeed and without a shadow of a doubt in the wrong). This experience has given me new interest in this dynamic among D&D groups! Anyone had any similar experiences? Or, maybe nothing of the kind, which is something we can mark down as "progress made"?
The other issue with the "Just Biology" argument is that it really isn't. It's based on an understanding of the physical differences between men and women that came from a society that encouraged men to be physically active and fit and women to be passive and pretty. Boys were expected to go outside and climb trees, wrestle, or play sports, while girls were expected to sit in the drawing room and sew. Anthropological studies of societies where everyone is expected to be physically active all the time and there's no gender divisions among labor have shown that there's far less difference in upper body strength between men and women.
Except science has proven time and again that there are significant differences.
Muscle forces are a strong determinant of bone structure, particularly during the process of growth and development. The gender divergence in the bone-muscle relationship becomes strongly evident during adolescence. In females, growth is characterized by increased estrogen levels and increased mass and strength of bone relative to that of muscle, whereas in men, increases in testosterone fuel large increases in muscle, resulting in muscle forces that coincide with a large growth in bone dimensions and strength. In adulthood, significant age-related losses are observed for both bone and muscle tissues. Large decrease in estrogen levels in women appears to diminish the skeleton's responsiveness to exercise more than in men. In contrast, the aging of the muscle-bone axis in men is a function of age related declines in both hormones. In addition to the well-known age related changes in the mechanical loading of bone by muscle, newer studies appear to provide evidence of age- and gender-related variations in molecular signaling between bone and muscle that are independent of purely mechanical interactions. In summary, gender differences in the acquisition and age-related loss in bone and muscle tissues may be important for developing gender-specific strategies for using exercise to reduce bone loss with aging.
Biological differences between men and women contribute to many sex-specific illnesses and disorders. Historically, it was argued that such differences were largely, if not exclusively, due to gonadal hormone secretions. However, emerging research has shown that some differences are mediated by mechanisms other than the action of these hormone secretions and in particular by products of genes located on the X and Y chromosomes, which we refer to as direct genetic effects. This paper reviews the evidence for direct genetic effects in behavioral and brain sex differences. We highlight the `four core genotypes' model and sex differences in the midbrain dopaminergic system, specifically focusing on the role of Sry. We also discuss novel research being done on unique populations including people attracted to the same sex and people with a cross-gender identity. As science continues to advance our understanding of biological sex differences, a new field is emerging that is aimed at better addressing the needs of both sexes: gender-based biology and medicine. Ultimately, the study of the biological basis for sex differences will improve healthcare for both men and women.
There are always exceptions to the rules of course, but for the vast majority of the time, there are very key differences between men and women and ignoring those differences for the sake of some social theory is a recipe for disaster.
The issue is not that there are differences, but how they actually express as a phenotype is actually less than what's commonly believed. And that's in the real world- D&D's ability scores are pretty abstract and don't accurately reflect how much of human physical and mental abilities really work. Especially in 5th Edition, where there are only two skills that cover athleticism. In D&D it's somehow possible to be a top gymnast while having a 6 strength, for example. Or a dwarf can be an expert swimmer despite having a heavy torso and short limbs with low body fat, which in the real world would make them very prone to sinking and produce a lot of drag.
Anyway, I guess the point I'm trying to make is that stats in D&D are basically arbitrary numbers to begin with, so it's not in any way actually less realistic to just say that there's no difference between men and women when it comes to strength.
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Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
Yurei, these are great observations, thank you for sharing! :) And, on that second point about players deciding to be inclusive vs. what the game mechanics offer: I would totally love such a survey to be done!
Also, it may be a different thread topic entirely, *or* it may be totally relevant to this conversation, but I would really be interested in people's takes (or...maybe not, if they're awful? lol) on gender inclusiveness among PLAYERS. I just joined a new D&D group created by some "refugee" gamers who were driven out of their old gaming group, due to nothing else than their DM and "the boy's club" penalizing female players for the most minute things, just because they could (I saw the discord chat myself, and know that the DM and his cronies were indeed and without a shadow of a doubt in the wrong). This experience has given me new interest in this dynamic among D&D groups! Anyone had any similar experiences? Or, maybe nothing of the kind, which is something we can mark down as "progress made"?
It's an all too common issue with some IRL tables - male players at those tables tend to treat the game like a dating app rather than a game. Girls who aren't there to be flirty and available get ostracized. Fortunately there's less and less of that as time goes on, and I'm proud to say that everyone I know who plays would put their foot down on that without hesitation regardless of their gender. The gaming table should be a safe haven; neither gals nor guys should have to put up with that kind of shit if they're not actively soliciting and inviting it.
I imagine a lot of it isn't so much active maliciousness as it is simply hormones. Tabletop role playing games are still capital-N Nerdy; data shows a big boom in people under twenty-five getting into the hobby now. Get young people who often have underdeveloped social skills around a table and invite them to create wild flights of imagination and fancy, and it's depressingly easy to see where someone might take liberties they'd otherwise be too nervous or obtuse to take. Some people are creepers, others are just folks trying to feel their way through what is and is not acceptable and occasionally misstep. I know that as wordy and intellectual as I seem online, my ability to read in-person social queues is essentially nonexistent. IRL Insight modifier of -2 at least; it's caused me problems before and I've had to carefully negotiate my way out of some hot water.
My policy is that so long as someone is willing to back off, apologize for misstepping, and make all due effort to avoid that sort of trouble in the future, then it's just a learning experience. No permanent harm done. Sounds like your refugee game is not that case. My condolences to the poor ladies involved, for what little they're worth.
Yurei, these are great observations, thank you for sharing! :) And, on that second point about players deciding to be inclusive vs. what the game mechanics offer: I would totally love such a survey to be done!
Also, it may be a different thread topic entirely, *or* it may be totally relevant to this conversation, but I would really be interested in people's takes (or...maybe not, if they're awful? lol) on gender inclusiveness among PLAYERS. I just joined a new D&D group created by some "refugee" gamers who were driven out of their old gaming group, due to nothing else than their DM and "the boy's club" penalizing female players for the most minute things, just because they could (I saw the discord chat myself, and know that the DM and his cronies were indeed and without a shadow of a doubt in the wrong). This experience has given me new interest in this dynamic among D&D groups! Anyone had any similar experiences? Or, maybe nothing of the kind, which is something we can mark down as "progress made"?
It's an all too common issue with some IRL tables - male players at those tables tend to treat the game like a dating app rather than a game. Girls who aren't there to be flirty and available get ostracized. Fortunately there's less and less of that as time goes on, and I'm proud to say that everyone I know who plays would put their foot down on that without hesitation regardless of their gender. The gaming table should be a safe haven; neither gals nor guys should have to put up with that kind of shit if they're not actively soliciting and inviting it.
I imagine a lot of it isn't so much active maliciousness as it is simply hormones. Tabletop role playing games are still capital-N Nerdy; data shows a big boom in people under twenty-five getting into the hobby now. Get young people who often have underdeveloped social skills around a table and invite them to create wild flights of imagination and fancy, and it's depressingly easy to see where someone might take liberties they'd otherwise be too nervous or obtuse to take. Some people are creepers, others are just folks trying to feel their way through what is and is not acceptable and occasionally misstep. I know that as wordy and intellectual as I seem online, my ability to read in-person social queues is essentially nonexistent. IRL Insight modifier of -2 at least; it's caused me problems before and I've had to carefully negotiate my way out of some hot water.
My policy is that so long as someone is willing to back off, apologize for misstepping, and make all due effort to avoid that sort of trouble in the future, then it's just a learning experience. No permanent harm done. Sounds like your refugee game is not that case. My condolences to the poor ladies involved, for what little they're worth.
Thanks, Yurei! I am glad to say that this is the only example I know of concerning such an event, and I've been in a lot of D&D groups. I think the sad part is that the perpetrators were veteran gamers who have even hosted community-based D&D groups out of their town's local library, they're all over 25, rather than some random teens without a whole lot of social experience; and I had known these guys for several years, it was just so icky. When I heard about it, I was shocked, and I'm still upset over it!
Thanks so much for the well-wishes to the victims; I think they're going to be okay, but I know it was a ding on their self-esteem and confidence. But, I agree, aside from isolated instances like their experience, I think that the gaming experience as a whole is going to get better as more progressively minded people get involved!
Yurei, these are great observations, thank you for sharing! :) And, on that second point about players deciding to be inclusive vs. what the game mechanics offer: I would totally love such a survey to be done!
Also, it may be a different thread topic entirely, *or* it may be totally relevant to this conversation, but I would really be interested in people's takes (or...maybe not, if they're awful? lol) on gender inclusiveness among PLAYERS. I just joined a new D&D group created by some "refugee" gamers who were driven out of their old gaming group, due to nothing else than their DM and "the boy's club" penalizing female players for the most minute things, just because they could (I saw the discord chat myself, and know that the DM and his cronies were indeed and without a shadow of a doubt in the wrong). This experience has given me new interest in this dynamic among D&D groups! Anyone had any similar experiences? Or, maybe nothing of the kind, which is something we can mark down as "progress made"?
It's an all too common issue with some IRL tables - male players at those tables tend to treat the game like a dating app rather than a game. Girls who aren't there to be flirty and available get ostracized. Fortunately there's less and less of that as time goes on, and I'm proud to say that everyone I know who plays would put their foot down on that without hesitation regardless of their gender. The gaming table should be a safe haven; neither gals nor guys should have to put up with that kind of shit if they're not actively soliciting and inviting it.
I imagine a lot of it isn't so much active maliciousness as it is simply hormones. Tabletop role playing games are still capital-N Nerdy; data shows a big boom in people under twenty-five getting into the hobby now. Get young people who often have underdeveloped social skills around a table and invite them to create wild flights of imagination and fancy, and it's depressingly easy to see where someone might take liberties they'd otherwise be too nervous or obtuse to take. Some people are creepers, others are just folks trying to feel their way through what is and is not acceptable and occasionally misstep. I know that as wordy and intellectual as I seem online, my ability to read in-person social queues is essentially nonexistent. IRL Insight modifier of -2 at least; it's caused me problems before and I've had to carefully negotiate my way out of some hot water.
My policy is that so long as someone is willing to back off, apologize for misstepping, and make all due effort to avoid that sort of trouble in the future, then it's just a learning experience. No permanent harm done. Sounds like your refugee game is not that case. My condolences to the poor ladies involved, for what little they're worth.
Going through this and other threads this is one of the things that has really astounded me. I remember when I first began playing TTRPGs the best way to repel women was to admit you played D&D. Sometimes that’s still the stereotype. In a Modern Family episode two of the male characters are in cosplay to go see a fictional “nerdy” movie and invite one of the female children to come along. One of the female adults warns her off saying “you’ll be the only girl there”. When I was young we would have killed to have real women show the same interests as us instead of universally seeing us as losers no girl would want to be around. So it shocks me that the “boys club” mentality exists when we finally have women admitting they want to be a part of it. Note: I am NOT denying this mentality exists, clearly it does. It’s just what do evil nerds think they are protecting? Their low self-esteem?
Also, it may be a different thread topic entirely, *or* it may be totally relevant to this conversation, but I would really be interested in people's takes (or...maybe not, if they're awful? lol) on gender inclusiveness among PLAYERS. I just joined a new D&D group created by some "refugee" gamers who were driven out of their old gaming group, due to nothing else than their DM and "the boy's club" penalizing female players for the most minute things, just because they could (I saw the discord chat myself, and know that the DM and his cronies were indeed and without a shadow of a doubt in the wrong). This experience has given me new interest in this dynamic among D&D groups! Anyone had any similar experiences? Or, maybe nothing of the kind, which is something we can mark down as "progress made"?
This brings up another related topic: What affects the disparity of gender in DMing?
I have sat at a variety of tables, whether it's with friends, at a hobby shop or at conventions. The vast majority of DMs are cisgender men. While this is not a scientific sample by any means, my searches for podcasts and Youtube channels where games are run by women or non-cisgender men seems to indicate that this is common social pattern. Please note that I am aware that this pattern has no direct link to how women or non-cisgender people are treated at the table as players, but I do suspect that the hobby of table top gaming would be less burdened with sexist tropes and toxic behavior towards women if there were significantly greater parity between # of women vs. # of men who DM. Or at least the burden of refuting the reputation of sexism in the hobby would be easier.
Nevertheless, I am curious as to the factors contributing to the relative lack of women as DMs. Thoughts?
You seem to be under the impression I'm accusing you of something and putting words in your mouth. I am not. I am simply stating my position and leaving it open for everyone. If you feel like it's applied to you, then that is your interpretation, not my statement.
Take it as you will, I'm not accusing you of dictating how I play, merely stating that anyone encouraging people to play as women because they feel like women are under represented is a slippery slope because at that point whoever is choosing to do so is flirting with the line between acting on their belief and imposing their beliefs on others. If it's you, then it is nothing more than something to think about. If it's not you then there is nothing to make a big deal over.
I'm not putting words in your mouth. I'm just making an open statement about my position with the "you" being a broad generalization of anyone and everyone who would encourage people based on hypothetical data because they see it as problematic that not enough people are playing enough of one group or another group.
I must have misunderstood you, then. I assumed that your reply that quoted me was directly talking to me. That doesn't apply to me. I would never force anyone to play anything. Additionally, slippery slopes are logical fallacies. If you use them to support your claims, your claims are null.
Also, it may be a different thread topic entirely, *or* it may be totally relevant to this conversation, but I would really be interested in people's takes (or...maybe not, if they're awful? lol) on gender inclusiveness among PLAYERS. I just joined a new D&D group created by some "refugee" gamers who were driven out of their old gaming group, due to nothing else than their DM and "the boy's club" penalizing female players for the most minute things, just because they could (I saw the discord chat myself, and know that the DM and his cronies were indeed and without a shadow of a doubt in the wrong). This experience has given me new interest in this dynamic among D&D groups! Anyone had any similar experiences? Or, maybe nothing of the kind, which is something we can mark down as "progress made"?
This brings up another related topic: What affects the disparity of gender in DMing?
I have sat at a variety of tables, whether it's with friends, at a hobby shop or at conventions. The vast majority of DMs are cisgender men. While this is not a scientific sample by any means, my searches for podcasts and Youtube channels where games are run by women or non-cisgender men seems to indicate that this is common social pattern. Please note that I am aware that this pattern has no direct link to how women or non-cisgender people are treated at the table as players, but I do suspect that the hobby of table top gaming would be less burdened with sexist tropes and toxic behavior towards women if there were significantly greater parity between # of women vs. # of men who DM. Or at least the burden of refuting the reputation of sexism in the hobby would be easier.
Nevertheless, I am curious as to the factors contributing to the relative lack of women as DMs. Thoughts?
That's an interesting facet of the discussion I haven't seen come up before. Excellent though. Hm.
I have no data or anything but my own base suppositions as to why the strong majority of DMs fall into that camp, and frankly those suppositions are weak and baseless enough I don't feel all that good about sharing them. But that's definitely a question worth pursuing. Female players are becoming more common, but you're right. I've seen maybe two female DMs in any sort of livestream format, and in virtually all the stories I've heard about the game, the DM is always he/him. That is an odd discrepancy given the overall pattern of the game becoming gradually less exclusive. Curious, and now I wish I knew more about it.
Oh, no. It's okay. I actually DO think this is "Satanic Panic 2.0".
I'm also saying there are MUCH bigger fish to fry, especially since 5th Edition has gone OUT of its way to be as inclusive as possible, but that doesn't matter. The most ripe target for Oppression Olympics enthusiasts tend to be people who already think the way they do. They get minimal pushback, and a ready line of willing victims ready to roll over at the first sign of criticism.
People can make any random claim you want, and since nobody wants to come across as being a bigot, they just stay silent and agree with it. I guess they make the mistake of thinking that - because a decades old edition of the game got it wrong on one or two points - that it means the current game is a hotbed of racial and gender animus.
(PS: As an exercise physiologist and Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu practitioner, I'm not mad about the old ability score charts that make males stronger than females. That's actually closer to accurate, even though I like the current system and its streamlining MUCH better, as I think reality has no place in a fantasy RPG. Acknowledging sexual dimorphism in animals - including the human ones - has nothing to do with bigotry. Previous editions making an attempt at that sort of realism DO NOT make the current edition a bastion of misogyny, no matter how much status one gains among their peers for asserting it.)
If you think a second satanic panic is coming, that's not really in the scope of the thread. I will respectfully disagree, and would recommend you to PM me if you want to discuss that further.
A lot of people have said "bigger fish to fry" or other idioms like that throughout various threads recently. I have an honest question, what's a bigger fish than figuring out if there is character gender equality in D&D? Is there anything else more important that WotC or D&D Beyond is failing to do because of directing resources to things like this?
If someone claims bigotry, if there's no apparent falsehoods in their initial claim, it's generally better to assume they're telling the truth in the case that they are instead of dismissing it. What's more harmful, accidentally dismissing a real problem about inclusivity, or doing a wild goose chase?
(Player characters are supposed to be rule outliers. Maybe a normal D&D world human woman is physically less strong than a male, but there's absolutely no reason why a PC should have to abide by that rule.)
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Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Oh, no. It's okay. I actually DO think this is "Satanic Panic 2.0".
I'm also saying there are MUCH bigger fish to fry, especially since 5th Edition has gone OUT of its way to be as inclusive as possible, but that doesn't matter. The most ripe target for Oppression Olympics enthusiasts tend to be people who already think the way they do. They get minimal pushback, and a ready line of willing victims ready to roll over at the first sign of criticism.
People can make any random claim you want, and since nobody wants to come across as being a bigot, they just stay silent and agree with it. I guess they make the mistake of thinking that - because a decades old edition of the game got it wrong on one or two points - that it means the current game is a hotbed of racial and gender animus.
(PS: As an exercise physiologist and Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu practitioner, I'm not mad about the old ability score charts that make males stronger than females. That's actually closer to accurate, even though I like the current system and its streamlining MUCH better, as I think reality has no place in a fantasy RPG. Acknowledging sexual dimorphism in animals - including the human ones - has nothing to do with bigotry. Previous editions making an attempt at that sort of realism DO NOT make the current edition a bastion of misogyny, no matter how much status one gains among their peers for asserting it.)
If you think a second satanic panic is coming, that's not really in the scope of the thread. I will respectfully disagree, and would recommend you to PM me if you want to discuss that further.
A lot of people have said "bigger fish to fry" or other idioms like that throughout various threads recently. I have an honest question, what's a bigger fish than figuring out if there is character gender equality in D&D? Is there anything else more important that WotC or D&D Beyond is failing to do because of directing resources to things like this?
If someone claims bigotry, if there's no apparent falsehoods in their initial claim, it's generally better to assume they're telling the truth in the case that they are instead of dismissing it. What's more harmful, accidentally dismissing a real problem about inclusivity, or doing a wild goose chase?
(Player characters are supposed to be rule outliers. Maybe a normal D&D world human woman is physically less strong than a male, but there's absolutely no reason why a PC should have to abide by that rule.)
My family is catholic, and most of the people I play with are christians. I can tell you right now.
the satanic panic is dead and gone.
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“I will take responsibility for what I have done. [...] If must fall, I will rise each time a better man.” ― Brandon Sanderson, Oathbringer.
I too have noticed that more DMs tend to be male than female, which is mostly anecdotal. This probably is mostly due to the fact that the majority of D&D players are male and have been for quite a long time, which leads to more experience in the game and therefore more likely to become DMs. With more female players recently coming to the game, hopefully this swings to the other direction in the near future, but I have also noticed that more of the popular D&D Youtubers are male, which is probably from the same cause.
For example: Matthew Mercer, Matthew Colville, Nerdarchy, Taking20, XP to level 3, Runesmith, on and on.
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Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
I have no data or anything but my own base suppositions as to why the strong majority of DMs fall into that camp, and frankly those suppositions are weak and baseless enough I don't feel all that good about sharing them. But that's definitely a question worth pursuing. Female players are becoming more common, but you're right. I've seen maybe two female DMs in any sort of livestream format, and in virtually all the stories I've heard about the game, the DM is always he/him. That is an odd discrepancy given the overall pattern of the game becoming gradually less exclusive. Curious, and now I wish I knew more about it.
Possibly just an issue of lag? Running games tends to be weighted towards people who have been in the hobby for a longer time, so you would expect it to change after player distribution changed.
Yurei, these are great observations, thank you for sharing! :) And, on that second point about players deciding to be inclusive vs. what the game mechanics offer: I would totally love such a survey to be done!
Also, it may be a different thread topic entirely, *or* it may be totally relevant to this conversation, but I would really be interested in people's takes (or...maybe not, if they're awful? lol) on gender inclusiveness among PLAYERS. I just joined a new D&D group created by some "refugee" gamers who were driven out of their old gaming group, due to nothing else than their DM and "the boy's club" penalizing female players for the most minute things, just because they could (I saw the discord chat myself, and know that the DM and his cronies were indeed and without a shadow of a doubt in the wrong). This experience has given me new interest in this dynamic among D&D groups! Anyone had any similar experiences? Or, maybe nothing of the kind, which is something we can mark down as "progress made"?
It's an all too common issue with some IRL tables - male players at those tables tend to treat the game like a dating app rather than a game. Girls who aren't there to be flirty and available get ostracized. Fortunately there's less and less of that as time goes on, and I'm proud to say that everyone I know who plays would put their foot down on that without hesitation regardless of their gender. The gaming table should be a safe haven; neither gals nor guys should have to put up with that kind of shit if they're not actively soliciting and inviting it.
I imagine a lot of it isn't so much active maliciousness as it is simply hormones. Tabletop role playing games are still capital-N Nerdy; data shows a big boom in people under twenty-five getting into the hobby now. Get young people who often have underdeveloped social skills around a table and invite them to create wild flights of imagination and fancy, and it's depressingly easy to see where someone might take liberties they'd otherwise be too nervous or obtuse to take. Some people are creepers, others are just folks trying to feel their way through what is and is not acceptable and occasionally misstep. I know that as wordy and intellectual as I seem online, my ability to read in-person social queues is essentially nonexistent. IRL Insight modifier of -2 at least; it's caused me problems before and I've had to carefully negotiate my way out of some hot water.
My policy is that so long as someone is willing to back off, apologize for misstepping, and make all due effort to avoid that sort of trouble in the future, then it's just a learning experience. No permanent harm done. Sounds like your refugee game is not that case. My condolences to the poor ladies involved, for what little they're worth.
Going through this and other threads this is one of the things that has really astounded me. I remember when I first began playing TTRPGs the best way to repel women was to admit you played D&D. Sometimes that’s still the stereotype. In a Modern Family episode two of the male characters are in cosplay to go see a fictional “nerdy” movie and invite one of the female children to come along. One of the female adults warns her off saying “you’ll be the only girl there”. When I was young we would have killed to have real women show the same interests as us instead of universally seeing us as losers no girl would want to be around. So it shocks me that the “boys club” mentality exists when we finally have women admitting they want to be a part of it. Note: I am NOT denying this mentality exists, clearly it does. It’s just what do evil nerds think they are protecting? Their low self-esteem?
As a female D&D player, I will say that I've never had an issue with guys not allowing me to play. In no way does that mean that the "boys club only" mentality doesn't exist, just that I have never been subjected to it. What I have been subjected to though was fellow women seeing my interest in playing a "guys game" and finding that to be a valid excuse to belittle or bully me for not being feminine enough.
D&D was for those nerdy kids who couldn't play sports or get girlfriends, or were for overweight ugly guys that would be forever virgins. This was the stereotype that I saw more often then the "boys only" or "Satanic game" stereotypes that were also present. It's also the stereotype I've personally seen the most of in any media that portrays D&D. So me being a girl who likes this game that was only meant for these undesirable boys made me somehow even worse of a human being and therefore worthy of being treated so poorly by my fellow female peers. It wasn't until leaving college that this sort of treatment stopped, but even now when talking to others about my hobbies, I'll have some women still give me weird looks that I would rather spend my time playing D&D or read a lore book or make fun homebrew content then go out and shop with friends or go clubbing or whatever else they might like doing. Luckily most others that I talk to share my love of D&D or at least think its a normal hobby and not worth criticizing, which shows how opinions of the game have changes over the years.
This is of course just my experience in regards to D&D (and Video games too) and how others have treated me as a female player.
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"Meddle not in the affairs of dragons, for thou art crunchy and taste good with ketchup."
Yurei, these are great observations, thank you for sharing! :) And, on that second point about players deciding to be inclusive vs. what the game mechanics offer: I would totally love such a survey to be done!
Also, it may be a different thread topic entirely, *or* it may be totally relevant to this conversation, but I would really be interested in people's takes (or...maybe not, if they're awful? lol) on gender inclusiveness among PLAYERS. I just joined a new D&D group created by some "refugee" gamers who were driven out of their old gaming group, due to nothing else than their DM and "the boy's club" penalizing female players for the most minute things, just because they could (I saw the discord chat myself, and know that the DM and his cronies were indeed and without a shadow of a doubt in the wrong). This experience has given me new interest in this dynamic among D&D groups! Anyone had any similar experiences? Or, maybe nothing of the kind, which is something we can mark down as "progress made"?
It's an all too common issue with some IRL tables - male players at those tables tend to treat the game like a dating app rather than a game. Girls who aren't there to be flirty and available get ostracized. Fortunately there's less and less of that as time goes on, and I'm proud to say that everyone I know who plays would put their foot down on that without hesitation regardless of their gender. The gaming table should be a safe haven; neither gals nor guys should have to put up with that kind of shit if they're not actively soliciting and inviting it.
I imagine a lot of it isn't so much active maliciousness as it is simply hormones. Tabletop role playing games are still capital-N Nerdy; data shows a big boom in people under twenty-five getting into the hobby now. Get young people who often have underdeveloped social skills around a table and invite them to create wild flights of imagination and fancy, and it's depressingly easy to see where someone might take liberties they'd otherwise be too nervous or obtuse to take. Some people are creepers, others are just folks trying to feel their way through what is and is not acceptable and occasionally misstep. I know that as wordy and intellectual as I seem online, my ability to read in-person social queues is essentially nonexistent. IRL Insight modifier of -2 at least; it's caused me problems before and I've had to carefully negotiate my way out of some hot water.
My policy is that so long as someone is willing to back off, apologize for misstepping, and make all due effort to avoid that sort of trouble in the future, then it's just a learning experience. No permanent harm done. Sounds like your refugee game is not that case. My condolences to the poor ladies involved, for what little they're worth.
Going through this and other threads this is one of the things that has really astounded me. I remember when I first began playing TTRPGs the best way to repel women was to admit you played D&D. Sometimes that’s still the stereotype. In a Modern Family episode two of the male characters are in cosplay to go see a fictional “nerdy” movie and invite one of the female children to come along. One of the female adults warns her off saying “you’ll be the only girl there”. When I was young we would have killed to have real women show the same interests as us instead of universally seeing us as losers no girl would want to be around. So it shocks me that the “boys club” mentality exists when we finally have women admitting they want to be a part of it. Note: I am NOT denying this mentality exists, clearly it does. It’s just what do evil nerds think they are protecting? Their low self-esteem?
As a female D&D player, I will say that I've never had an issue with guys not allowing me to play. In no way does that mean that the "boys club only" mentality doesn't exist, just that I have never been subjected to it. What I have been subjected to though was fellow women seeing my interest in playing a "guys game" and finding that to be a valid excuse to belittle or bully me for not being feminine enough.
D&D was for those nerdy kids who couldn't play sports or get girlfriends, or were for overweight ugly guys that would be forever virgins. This was the stereotype that I saw more often then the "boys only" or "Satanic game" stereotypes that were also present. It's also the stereotype I've personally seen the most of in any media that portrays D&D. So me being a girl who likes this game that was only meant for these undesirable boys made me somehow even worse of a human being and therefore worthy of being treated so poorly by my fellow female peers. It wasn't until leaving college that this sort of treatment stopped, but even now when talking to others about my hobbies, I'll have some women still give me weird looks that I would rather spend my time playing D&D or read a lore book or make fun homebrew content then go out and shop with friends or go clubbing or whatever else they might like doing. Luckily most others that I talk to share my love of D&D or at least think its a normal hobby and not worth criticizing, which shows how opinions of the game have changes over the years.
This is of course just my experience in regards to D&D (and Video games too) and how others have treated me as a female player.
I like RPGs and shopping/clubbing, but with different friend groups that only overlap a little. D&D is just a hobby to me, no different than any other.
Just going to remind everyone of three important things; to stay on topic, to respect site rules, and most importantly to respect each other.
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I don't care one whit if an argument in a debate is made by a man or a woman. Not one whit. Nor do I believe that someone is inherently disqualified from giving an opinion on a subject because of their gender.
So long as science, the facts and unbiased data is used to make the argument then it doesn't matter one bit who is the one making the argument.
It could be a man or a woman. Let the idea of the argument be held on its own merits. And that is true gender equality.
It's one of the reasons I like debating on the internet. Anyone can say anything they want and I can believe them or disbelieve them based on the logic of their arguments and any cited sources, or lack thereof. Someone may say they are a woman to try and give themselves more legitimacy in an argument, but that does not mean they are a woman, nor does it mean that their arguments have any more legitimacy than if they were a man. The same is true in reverse. Men don't have any more legitimacy for their arguments just because they're men either.
Either an argument in a debate makes sense or it doesn't.
Now, to keep it on topic for the thread, I honestly think it's great that D&D lets players be whatever they want to be because everyone has an opportunity to play, everyone has the opportunity to make whatever character they want to make, and the only real enemy of what can and can't happen is the dice. Some people may prefer playing as a girls even though they're boys to try and experience things in-game they wouldn't experience in real life, but I honestly find that an unreliable metric because they are still limited by the imagination and reactions of the other players, how they play their characters and the DM and their own views. Others may prefer to play as their own gender because they they are doing some form of self-insert or don't know how to play the other gender well, or don't like someone of their own gender flirting with them in-character because they find it creepy. Others may be simply in it for the sake of playing a game of make-believe with their friends and a bag of dice.
The opportunity is there and there are no advantages or disadvantages to playing either male or female in D&D, aside from what you as a player impose on yourself or what your particular group handles it. (I'm using "you" colloquially to be anyone, not you specificly).
I don't care what people do in their own lives, men or women, or what career fields or college courses they take, what characters they make or whatever. I don't tell them what to do and I expect for them to not tell me what to do.
Yurei, these are great observations, thank you for sharing! :) And, on that second point about players deciding to be inclusive vs. what the game mechanics offer: I would totally love such a survey to be done!
Also, it may be a different thread topic entirely, *or* it may be totally relevant to this conversation, but I would really be interested in people's takes (or...maybe not, if they're awful? lol) on gender inclusiveness among PLAYERS. I just joined a new D&D group created by some "refugee" gamers who were driven out of their old gaming group, due to nothing else than their DM and "the boy's club" penalizing female players for the most minute things, just because they could (I saw the discord chat myself, and know that the DM and his cronies were indeed and without a shadow of a doubt in the wrong). This experience has given me new interest in this dynamic among D&D groups! Anyone had any similar experiences? Or, maybe nothing of the kind, which is something we can mark down as "progress made"?
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The issue is not that there are differences, but how they actually express as a phenotype is actually less than what's commonly believed. And that's in the real world- D&D's ability scores are pretty abstract and don't accurately reflect how much of human physical and mental abilities really work. Especially in 5th Edition, where there are only two skills that cover athleticism. In D&D it's somehow possible to be a top gymnast while having a 6 strength, for example. Or a dwarf can be an expert swimmer despite having a heavy torso and short limbs with low body fat, which in the real world would make them very prone to sinking and produce a lot of drag.
Anyway, I guess the point I'm trying to make is that stats in D&D are basically arbitrary numbers to begin with, so it's not in any way actually less realistic to just say that there's no difference between men and women when it comes to strength.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
It's an all too common issue with some IRL tables - male players at those tables tend to treat the game like a dating app rather than a game. Girls who aren't there to be flirty and available get ostracized. Fortunately there's less and less of that as time goes on, and I'm proud to say that everyone I know who plays would put their foot down on that without hesitation regardless of their gender. The gaming table should be a safe haven; neither gals nor guys should have to put up with that kind of shit if they're not actively soliciting and inviting it.
I imagine a lot of it isn't so much active maliciousness as it is simply hormones. Tabletop role playing games are still capital-N Nerdy; data shows a big boom in people under twenty-five getting into the hobby now. Get young people who often have underdeveloped social skills around a table and invite them to create wild flights of imagination and fancy, and it's depressingly easy to see where someone might take liberties they'd otherwise be too nervous or obtuse to take. Some people are creepers, others are just folks trying to feel their way through what is and is not acceptable and occasionally misstep. I know that as wordy and intellectual as I seem online, my ability to read in-person social queues is essentially nonexistent. IRL Insight modifier of -2 at least; it's caused me problems before and I've had to carefully negotiate my way out of some hot water.
My policy is that so long as someone is willing to back off, apologize for misstepping, and make all due effort to avoid that sort of trouble in the future, then it's just a learning experience. No permanent harm done. Sounds like your refugee game is not that case. My condolences to the poor ladies involved, for what little they're worth.
Please do not contact or message me.
Thanks, Yurei! I am glad to say that this is the only example I know of concerning such an event, and I've been in a lot of D&D groups. I think the sad part is that the perpetrators were veteran gamers who have even hosted community-based D&D groups out of their town's local library, they're all over 25, rather than some random teens without a whole lot of social experience; and I had known these guys for several years, it was just so icky. When I heard about it, I was shocked, and I'm still upset over it!
Thanks so much for the well-wishes to the victims; I think they're going to be okay, but I know it was a ding on their self-esteem and confidence. But, I agree, aside from isolated instances like their experience, I think that the gaming experience as a whole is going to get better as more progressively minded people get involved!
💙🤍~*Ravenclaw*~ 🔮
Going through this and other threads this is one of the things that has really astounded me. I remember when I first began playing TTRPGs the best way to repel women was to admit you played D&D. Sometimes that’s still the stereotype. In a Modern Family episode two of the male characters are in cosplay to go see a fictional “nerdy” movie and invite one of the female children to come along. One of the female adults warns her off saying “you’ll be the only girl there”.
When I was young we would have killed to have real women show the same interests as us instead of universally seeing us as losers no girl would want to be around. So it shocks me that the “boys club” mentality exists when we finally have women admitting they want to be a part of it.
Note: I am NOT denying this mentality exists, clearly it does. It’s just what do evil nerds think they are protecting? Their low self-esteem?
This brings up another related topic: What affects the disparity of gender in DMing?
I have sat at a variety of tables, whether it's with friends, at a hobby shop or at conventions. The vast majority of DMs are cisgender men. While this is not a scientific sample by any means, my searches for podcasts and Youtube channels where games are run by women or non-cisgender men seems to indicate that this is common social pattern. Please note that I am aware that this pattern has no direct link to how women or non-cisgender people are treated at the table as players, but I do suspect that the hobby of table top gaming would be less burdened with sexist tropes and toxic behavior towards women if there were significantly greater parity between # of women vs. # of men who DM. Or at least the burden of refuting the reputation of sexism in the hobby would be easier.
Nevertheless, I am curious as to the factors contributing to the relative lack of women as DMs. Thoughts?
I must have misunderstood you, then. I assumed that your reply that quoted me was directly talking to me. That doesn't apply to me. I would never force anyone to play anything. Additionally, slippery slopes are logical fallacies. If you use them to support your claims, your claims are null.
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uhhh, or he just doesn't know how to put it properly? If someone makes a bad argument for equality, does that make the motive false?
“I will take responsibility for what I have done. [...] If must fall, I will rise each time a better man.” ― Brandon Sanderson, Oathbringer.
Sorry, maybe I put that incorrectly. What I mean is, if your claim is based on a logical fallacy, it is void. For example:
Claim: Vegan meat is great for the world! (Relatively correct statement)
Support for claim: Red meat eaters are followers of Satan. (Ad hominem)
Even if the claim is correct, if their support for the claim is a logical fallacy, feel free to ignore their claim and point out the logical fallacy.
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exactly.
“I will take responsibility for what I have done. [...] If must fall, I will rise each time a better man.” ― Brandon Sanderson, Oathbringer.
That's an interesting facet of the discussion I haven't seen come up before. Excellent though. Hm.
I have no data or anything but my own base suppositions as to why the strong majority of DMs fall into that camp, and frankly those suppositions are weak and baseless enough I don't feel all that good about sharing them. But that's definitely a question worth pursuing. Female players are becoming more common, but you're right. I've seen maybe two female DMs in any sort of livestream format, and in virtually all the stories I've heard about the game, the DM is always he/him. That is an odd discrepancy given the overall pattern of the game becoming gradually less exclusive. Curious, and now I wish I knew more about it.
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If you think a second satanic panic is coming, that's not really in the scope of the thread. I will respectfully disagree, and would recommend you to PM me if you want to discuss that further.
A lot of people have said "bigger fish to fry" or other idioms like that throughout various threads recently. I have an honest question, what's a bigger fish than figuring out if there is character gender equality in D&D? Is there anything else more important that WotC or D&D Beyond is failing to do because of directing resources to things like this?
If someone claims bigotry, if there's no apparent falsehoods in their initial claim, it's generally better to assume they're telling the truth in the case that they are instead of dismissing it. What's more harmful, accidentally dismissing a real problem about inclusivity, or doing a wild goose chase?
(Player characters are supposed to be rule outliers. Maybe a normal D&D world human woman is physically less strong than a male, but there's absolutely no reason why a PC should have to abide by that rule.)
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My family is catholic, and most of the people I play with are christians. I can tell you right now.
the satanic panic is dead and gone.
“I will take responsibility for what I have done. [...] If must fall, I will rise each time a better man.” ― Brandon Sanderson, Oathbringer.
I too have noticed that more DMs tend to be male than female, which is mostly anecdotal. This probably is mostly due to the fact that the majority of D&D players are male and have been for quite a long time, which leads to more experience in the game and therefore more likely to become DMs. With more female players recently coming to the game, hopefully this swings to the other direction in the near future, but I have also noticed that more of the popular D&D Youtubers are male, which is probably from the same cause.
For example: Matthew Mercer, Matthew Colville, Nerdarchy, Taking20, XP to level 3, Runesmith, on and on.
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Possibly just an issue of lag? Running games tends to be weighted towards people who have been in the hobby for a longer time, so you would expect it to change after player distribution changed.
As a female D&D player, I will say that I've never had an issue with guys not allowing me to play. In no way does that mean that the "boys club only" mentality doesn't exist, just that I have never been subjected to it. What I have been subjected to though was fellow women seeing my interest in playing a "guys game" and finding that to be a valid excuse to belittle or bully me for not being feminine enough.
D&D was for those nerdy kids who couldn't play sports or get girlfriends, or were for overweight ugly guys that would be forever virgins. This was the stereotype that I saw more often then the "boys only" or "Satanic game" stereotypes that were also present. It's also the stereotype I've personally seen the most of in any media that portrays D&D. So me being a girl who likes this game that was only meant for these undesirable boys made me somehow even worse of a human being and therefore worthy of being treated so poorly by my fellow female peers. It wasn't until leaving college that this sort of treatment stopped, but even now when talking to others about my hobbies, I'll have some women still give me weird looks that I would rather spend my time playing D&D or read a lore book or make fun homebrew content then go out and shop with friends or go clubbing or whatever else they might like doing. Luckily most others that I talk to share my love of D&D or at least think its a normal hobby and not worth criticizing, which shows how opinions of the game have changes over the years.
This is of course just my experience in regards to D&D (and Video games too) and how others have treated me as a female player.
"Meddle not in the affairs of dragons, for thou art crunchy and taste good with ketchup."
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RoughCoronet's Greater Wills
I like RPGs and shopping/clubbing, but with different friend groups that only overlap a little. D&D is just a hobby to me, no different than any other.
This is a really cool discussion. Thanks guys.
Thank you for sharing, Coronet. That's valuable information. I appreciate you being willing to offer it.
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